Having gay family members who are out (as opposed to say me who is not), I have seen more than enough of "His Friend" and yeah, it's definitely not a positive thing. The game could have done a lot worse, sure, but it could have done better, too.
And for folks talking about how video game representation does not matter, I'd prefer not have to remind y'all that the representation of people in media serves to inform and reinforce societal norms.
Having gay family members who are out (as opposed to say me who is not), I have seen more than enough of "His Friend" and yeah, it's definit… moreely not a positive thing. The game could have done a lot worse, sure, but it could have done better, too.
And for folks talking about how video game representation does not matter, I'd prefer not have to remind y'all that the representation of people in media serves to inform and reinforce societal norms.
It's not rocket science. There is no high minded concept to figure out, unless we're going to blanket state that sexuality is only something… more adults can understand, and I'm well aware that that's not what's being stated.
What is being stated is that homosexuality is an adult concept as opposed to heterosexuality and that's total horse shit.
Actually, if you sit with Luke at dinner, Luke says that Walter told him that he lost his wife and kid. Of course, he can be lying, but Walter seems like an honest guy. Just throwing that out there.
Actually, if you sit with Luke at dinner, Luke says that Walter told him that he lost his wife and kid. Of course, he can be lying, but Walter seems like an honest guy. Just throwing that out there.
EDIT: I'm a retard
Flog61, I admire your tenacity in replying to every single comment on this thread, but I have to say... as a gay man myself, I don't think you're doing the cause any justice, and it seems to me that you're refusing to see what are really quite sensible statements from most posters.
To anyone with more than two braincells, it was really quite obvious that Walter and Matthew were lovers. The clearly intelligent contributors to this thread have supported you on that point.
For those with one braincell or fewer, Walter's reference to Matthew as his "partner" pretty much spelled it out completely. I understand that you're not happy that other characters refer to them as "friends"... but, frankly, that's a realistic representation to me. Why should those characters assume that Walter and Matthew are gay? They only knew them in the context of the story, so it would have been wrong of them to make any assumptions. Calling two people "friends" can have all kinds of connotations anyway. Basically, it's just a very realistic depiction of the way people would talk, in my view.
I feel you're focusing too much on the detail here and failing to see the bigger picture. WHAT mainstream video games out there have EVER included gay characters - sympathetic, likeable ones at that - in the main plot? Extremely few... if any.
My advice to you is to pick your battles. Telltale has done an incredible thing by including a clearly gay couple in a popular, mainstream game... WITHOUT making a great big deal out of it. In the long run, that kind of classy move will do more to change people's opinions than any vocal activism.
"Partner" seemed pretty self-explanatory -- it's possible Clem just didn't pick up on it. I can't remember who else described him as a 'friend', but I can see Kenny being uncomfortable with their relationship and trying to downplay/ignore it, and Walter was a teacher working in the south, so he may have gotten used to staying closeted. If I'm remembering right, the ZA happened in 2003, which is almost another historical period from today as far as LGBTQ rights go. The Walking Dead world never achieved marriage equality in a single state. (Until it did, suddenly and all at once, at least for one sense of equality--with no government, nobody has a legal marriage anymore.)
Why did Kenny need to tell us he was married to Katjaa?
Why did he need to tell us that he was in a relationship with Sarita?
Is he no… moret, by most people here's definition of shoving 'homosexuality down peoples throats', shoving Heterosexuality down people's throats?
EDIT: It would be nice if my disliker groupies would actually tell me HOW this assertion is wrong rather than just disliking it. That just helps no-one.
@Flog61 Here, people are refusing to recognise gay relationships as being as valid as straight ones, and expecting them to be treated differently.
Not really. You're seriously the only person implying that.
Walter called Matthew his partner. He also said "do you know what you have done to me?" when Nick confessed. This would imply they are gay, and the rest of Walt's mannerisms support this. Most people understand this.
Sarita may or may not know what the deal with Walt and Matthew are. Kenny found Lee 'urban' and likely has other notions about these kind of things as well. It is also possible that he simply didn't know. Luke called them friends because there was nothing suggesting otherwise and the only reason we knew is because we interacted with him as much as we did.
Thus, there was no need to state that they are gay, because it is just like stating someone is straight; there really is no point in saying either. No reason to care, really. By pointing out that not stating it explicitly was something Telltale shouldn't have done, you make being gay somehow matter. It doesn't. They didn't say that particular word. That's all. Sarita is Kenny's 'girl'. She is not explicitly stated to be his girlfriend or wife. 'My girl' is analogous to 'my partner'.
I honestly thought it was very realistic. That even in the apocalypse he's sort of hesitant to be open about It or throw it out there. It definitely DID seem to me like they were hinting at (not so subtly) a gay relationship but maybe he doesn't want to come out. We're not a point yet in reality where everygay couple or gay person is comfortable or ready or even able to "come out" for a variety of reasons. At the same time many homosexual individuals themselves feel that revealing themselves might harm them in some way- socially, professionally, etc. I thought he made it clear without throwing it out there wide out in the open. To me, that seems like a more realistic way of things going down in reality or in this situation than him saying "my lover" or "my boyfriend." Just as a society we're not quite there yet where things like that are extremely common, you know what I mean? Especially in the presence of strangers.
Well, looking at the shit the OP has been getting on this thread, you can understand why Walter would be hesitant to be super out (IE, saying "Matthew is/was his boyfriend")
That said, I understand the people defending the subtlety. It's there, (honestly, I didn't pick up on it the first time, but now that you mention it...) but it's not a big deal. Because it shouldn't be a big deal. The Walking Dead has black main characters, and who cares? Season 1 had one reference to Lee's race, but other than that you'd barely even notice.
I think it was realistic. I really do. Just realistic in the terms and context of todays audience. Maybe 10, 20 years down the line it'll seem weird like "hey bro why didn't he just say he was his dude?" But for better of for worse the homosexual community has been using terms like "my partner" and "my friend" for a while now so the fact that Walter wasn't like "Hey yeah the guy I love and bang on the reg isn't back yet" isn't a shock to me. It seems realistic, for better or for worse.
Well, looking at the shit the OP has been getting on this thread, you can understand why Walter would be hesitant to be super out (IE, sayin… moreg "Matthew is/was his boyfriend")
That said, I understand the people defending the subtlety. It's there, (honestly, I didn't pick up on it the first time, but now that you mention it...) but it's not a big deal. Because it shouldn't be a big deal. The Walking Dead has black main characters, and who cares? Season 1 had one reference to Lee's race, but other than that you'd barely even notice.
@Flog61 "you have admitted that 'partner' does signify that they are in a relationship?"
Great now we're diving into semantics. A cheap p… moreloy and tactic when you're losing an argument. Maybe you don't realize it, but I already know that those two were lovers. I'm just pointing out your arguments intellectual flaws. There's a reason why few people are agreeing with you. It's because you're blowing this way out of proportion.
It's not rocket science. There is no high minded concept to figure out, unless we're going to blanket state that sexuality is only something… more adults can understand, and I'm well aware that that's not what's being stated.
What is being stated is that homosexuality is an adult concept as opposed to heterosexuality and that's total horse shit.
I liked how understated it was. There was more than enough there to be confident they were in a romantic relationship. I don't think there would be much confusion on the matter if the whole 'homosexuality' angle weren't present. As someone said earlier, if we were operating on the same evidence and the two had been of opposite genders pretty much everyone would accept they were in a relationship without further argument and without much fuss.
And yet, Telltale didn't beat you over the head with it, either. Matthew was Walter's partner. He obviously cared deeply for him, enough so that (when we get the shot of Walter's last look at the picture of he and Matthew together) his last thoughts were of him. Beyond that, the subject was irrelevant. They weren't characters defined by their sexual orientation, and really the matter was largely unimportant to the story. That's how it should be.
Hey, Viva-La-Lee. Thanks for taking over the discussion I have started myself. I kinda had to get offline and when I come back here, I see you having said everything I had wanted to say. Kudos to you. I don't think I could have done it any better.
She was with Lee, then Omid and Christa, and now with the current group. We have a general idea of who she's met. To assume she's learned as such with no indication just to be outraged is, again, lazy.
Hey, Viva-La-Lee. Thanks for taking over the discussion I have started myself. I kinda had to get offline and when I come back here, I see you having said everything I had wanted to say. Kudos to you. I don't think I could have done it any better.
Just noticed that Walter does actually say that Matthew is his partner, when Clem and Walter is outside before Kenny joins them and they meet Bonnie. So there ya go!
Im not upset at all.
I'm just curious because almost all other relationships in the game have been told to us. Like, it would be like is describing Katjaa as Kenny's 'friend' a couple of moments after meeting them.
Except you don't have to meet a gay person to know they're gay. Hell, Clem could be herself.
Homosexuality isn't some great mystery that you have to encounter to know that it exists. Especially not since she grew up in the South where everyone makes a huge ass fuss about it. I'm not out, but there's always chatter about my gay relatives. Discussion of "politics" and whatnot. She could have had friends with gay parents, et cetera.
The assumption that she wouldn't know what it is is thoroughly unfounded. Clem's pretty astute, or at least that's how she is in my game. Sharp as a tack. I reckon she caught that the guy loved the other guy, and there's not much more a kid needs having explained to them. They might not know the specific terminology, but kids way younger than that put two and two together.
She was with Lee, then Omid and Christa, and now with the current group. We have a general idea of who she's met. To assume she's learned as such with no indication just to be outraged is, again, lazy.
Speaking for Georgia (though the ski lodge was in Virginia), I do guess partner is a phrase that can be used to describe a desired-but-impossible marital relationship due to laws. That said, though, I don't see why they wouldn't just say husband given that the law is dead. Force of habit maybe, but I dunno.
I'm not a big fan of subtlety when anvils need to be dropped.
Last time I checked it only made notice of what a person was capable of in an apocalypse. Never once was I aware that media containing zombies was the "representation of people in media". That's just absurd. At the end of the day it's a story, Sure, there are some realistic parts that contain real life opinions, but the whole closeted gay thing isn't one of them.
You're all making yourselves look like a bunch of babies the more you continue on with this incessant whining. Get over it. Walt may have been gay but he wasn't a fruit.
Speaking for Georgia (though the ski lodge was in Virginia), I do guess partner is a phrase that can be used to describe a desired-but-impos… moresible marital relationship due to laws. That said, though, I don't see why they wouldn't just say husband given that the law is dead. Force of habit maybe, but I dunno.
I'm not a big fan of subtlety when anvils need to be dropped.
It was super obvious that Walter and Matthew were knee deep in homolove, people who didn't recognize it are in denial and probably scared of dudes having big sticky orgasms together.
TT did fine with its presentation. Making it any more explicit would be needless and jarring. "Greetings, new arrivals and children! I am a gay with a male sex-partner!"
You're right. Only a handful of people don't seem to get it. I didn't see any black people pissing their pants when Clementine never discussed her race. (though there were furious race debates at which I was very entertained) So why should it be different for gays?
Except you don't have to meet a gay person to know they're gay. Hell, Clem could be herself.
Homosexuality isn't some great mystery that … moreyou have to encounter to know that it exists. Especially not since she grew up in the South where everyone makes a huge ass fuss about it. I'm not out, but there's always chatter about my gay relatives. Discussion of "politics" and whatnot. She could have had friends with gay parents, et cetera.
The assumption that she wouldn't know what it is is thoroughly unfounded. Clem's pretty astute, or at least that's how she is in my game. Sharp as a tack. I reckon she caught that the guy loved the other guy, and there's not much more a kid needs having explained to them. They might not know the specific terminology, but kids way younger than that put two and two together.
Romero's original Dead trilogy: Night, Dawn, and Day were all three social commentaries with the most obvious being the second one Dawn of the Dead. Dawn was about mindless consumerism in America. That's why he chose a shopping mall as the main location, and the zombies represented the mindless shoppers. Night and Day aren't as in your face about it but it's there. And Kirkman has stated that he was inspired by Romero's Dead trilogy and that he also uses the zombie genre to explore social and human nature.
Last time I checked it only made notice of what a person was capable of in an apocalypse. Never once was I aware that media containing zombi… morees was the "representation of people in media". That's just absurd. At the end of the day it's a story, Sure, there are some realistic parts that contain real life opinions, but the whole closeted gay thing isn't one of them.
You're all making yourselves look like a bunch of babies the more you continue on with this incessant whining. Get over it. Walt may have been gay but he wasn't a fruit.
Comments
Having gay family members who are out (as opposed to say me who is not), I have seen more than enough of "His Friend" and yeah, it's definitely not a positive thing. The game could have done a lot worse, sure, but it could have done better, too.
And for folks talking about how video game representation does not matter, I'd prefer not have to remind y'all that the representation of people in media serves to inform and reinforce societal norms.
@ceekyuucee "the representation of people in media serves to inform and reinforce societal norms."
I wasn't aware that zombies were a societal norm.
And where was that stated? Just curious.
He got owned in his own thread That is so sad
Actually, if you sit with Luke at dinner, Luke says that Walter told him that he lost his wife and kid. Of course, he can be lying, but Walter seems like an honest guy. Just throwing that out there.
EDIT: I'm a retard
referring to Kenny obviously...
Flog61, I admire your tenacity in replying to every single comment on this thread, but I have to say... as a gay man myself, I don't think you're doing the cause any justice, and it seems to me that you're refusing to see what are really quite sensible statements from most posters.
To anyone with more than two braincells, it was really quite obvious that Walter and Matthew were lovers. The clearly intelligent contributors to this thread have supported you on that point.
For those with one braincell or fewer, Walter's reference to Matthew as his "partner" pretty much spelled it out completely. I understand that you're not happy that other characters refer to them as "friends"... but, frankly, that's a realistic representation to me. Why should those characters assume that Walter and Matthew are gay? They only knew them in the context of the story, so it would have been wrong of them to make any assumptions. Calling two people "friends" can have all kinds of connotations anyway. Basically, it's just a very realistic depiction of the way people would talk, in my view.
I feel you're focusing too much on the detail here and failing to see the bigger picture. WHAT mainstream video games out there have EVER included gay characters - sympathetic, likeable ones at that - in the main plot? Extremely few... if any.
My advice to you is to pick your battles. Telltale has done an incredible thing by including a clearly gay couple in a popular, mainstream game... WITHOUT making a great big deal out of it. In the long run, that kind of classy move will do more to change people's opinions than any vocal activism.
"Partner" seemed pretty self-explanatory -- it's possible Clem just didn't pick up on it. I can't remember who else described him as a 'friend', but I can see Kenny being uncomfortable with their relationship and trying to downplay/ignore it, and Walter was a teacher working in the south, so he may have gotten used to staying closeted. If I'm remembering right, the ZA happened in 2003, which is almost another historical period from today as far as LGBTQ rights go. The Walking Dead world never achieved marriage equality in a single state. (Until it did, suddenly and all at once, at least for one sense of equality--with no government, nobody has a legal marriage anymore.)
matthew looks like a fishy
Yes, right after I posted that comment I went in the shower, and I realized that while I was in the shower.
I think most of them are telling you... look at this thread!
Fucking love you my man haha.
Hahaha, funny shit.
Walter called Matthew his partner. He also said "do you know what you have done to me?" when Nick confessed. This would imply they are gay, and the rest of Walt's mannerisms support this. Most people understand this.
Sarita may or may not know what the deal with Walt and Matthew are. Kenny found Lee 'urban' and likely has other notions about these kind of things as well. It is also possible that he simply didn't know. Luke called them friends because there was nothing suggesting otherwise and the only reason we knew is because we interacted with him as much as we did.
Thus, there was no need to state that they are gay, because it is just like stating someone is straight; there really is no point in saying either. No reason to care, really. By pointing out that not stating it explicitly was something Telltale shouldn't have done, you make being gay somehow matter. It doesn't. They didn't say that particular word. That's all. Sarita is Kenny's 'girl'. She is not explicitly stated to be his girlfriend or wife. 'My girl' is analogous to 'my partner'.
That is all.
I honestly thought it was very realistic. That even in the apocalypse he's sort of hesitant to be open about It or throw it out there. It definitely DID seem to me like they were hinting at (not so subtly) a gay relationship but maybe he doesn't want to come out. We're not a point yet in reality where everygay couple or gay person is comfortable or ready or even able to "come out" for a variety of reasons. At the same time many homosexual individuals themselves feel that revealing themselves might harm them in some way- socially, professionally, etc. I thought he made it clear without throwing it out there wide out in the open. To me, that seems like a more realistic way of things going down in reality or in this situation than him saying "my lover" or "my boyfriend." Just as a society we're not quite there yet where things like that are extremely common, you know what I mean? Especially in the presence of strangers.
Well, looking at the shit the OP has been getting on this thread, you can understand why Walter would be hesitant to be super out (IE, saying "Matthew is/was his boyfriend")
That said, I understand the people defending the subtlety. It's there, (honestly, I didn't pick up on it the first time, but now that you mention it...) but it's not a big deal. Because it shouldn't be a big deal. The Walking Dead has black main characters, and who cares? Season 1 had one reference to Lee's race, but other than that you'd barely even notice.
I think it was realistic. I really do. Just realistic in the terms and context of todays audience. Maybe 10, 20 years down the line it'll seem weird like "hey bro why didn't he just say he was his dude?" But for better of for worse the homosexual community has been using terms like "my partner" and "my friend" for a while now so the fact that Walter wasn't like "Hey yeah the guy I love and bang on the reg isn't back yet" isn't a shock to me. It seems realistic, for better or for worse.
[removed]
You're clearly not aware of the long-held forum of zombie fiction being used as a social commentary on a variety of issues.
Pretending Clem would recognize something she hasn't seen before is lazy.
I liked how understated it was. There was more than enough there to be confident they were in a romantic relationship. I don't think there would be much confusion on the matter if the whole 'homosexuality' angle weren't present. As someone said earlier, if we were operating on the same evidence and the two had been of opposite genders pretty much everyone would accept they were in a relationship without further argument and without much fuss.
And yet, Telltale didn't beat you over the head with it, either. Matthew was Walter's partner. He obviously cared deeply for him, enough so that (when we get the shot of Walter's last look at the picture of he and Matthew together) his last thoughts were of him. Beyond that, the subject was irrelevant. They weren't characters defined by their sexual orientation, and really the matter was largely unimportant to the story. That's how it should be.
In case you haven't noticed this is the zombie apocalypse so who lnows she did mature she could've found out about it
flog61 is a shitposter what else is new ? haha
Hey, Viva-La-Lee. Thanks for taking over the discussion I have started myself. I kinda had to get offline and when I come back here, I see you having said everything I had wanted to say. Kudos to you. I don't think I could have done it any better.
She was with Lee, then Omid and Christa, and now with the current group. We have a general idea of who she's met. To assume she's learned as such with no indication just to be outraged is, again, lazy.
OP, are you implying that gay people need to act as "gay" as possible or else they are just heterosexual friends? Now that's a stereotype.
Happy to oblige! Had to step in
Walter called him his partner. I think that made it clear enough that they were a couple.
Just noticed that Walter does actually say that Matthew is his partner, when Clem and Walter is outside before Kenny joins them and they meet Bonnie. So there ya go!
Well, he is his friend.
Just a really, really good friend.
Except you don't have to meet a gay person to know they're gay. Hell, Clem could be herself.
Homosexuality isn't some great mystery that you have to encounter to know that it exists. Especially not since she grew up in the South where everyone makes a huge ass fuss about it. I'm not out, but there's always chatter about my gay relatives. Discussion of "politics" and whatnot. She could have had friends with gay parents, et cetera.
The assumption that she wouldn't know what it is is thoroughly unfounded. Clem's pretty astute, or at least that's how she is in my game. Sharp as a tack. I reckon she caught that the guy loved the other guy, and there's not much more a kid needs having explained to them. They might not know the specific terminology, but kids way younger than that put two and two together.
i
u
Speaking for Georgia (though the ski lodge was in Virginia), I do guess partner is a phrase that can be used to describe a desired-but-impossible marital relationship due to laws. That said, though, I don't see why they wouldn't just say husband given that the law is dead. Force of habit maybe, but I dunno.
I'm not a big fan of subtlety when anvils need to be dropped.
Everything I've said is accurate, so that insult is unwarranted.
Last time I checked it only made notice of what a person was capable of in an apocalypse. Never once was I aware that media containing zombies was the "representation of people in media". That's just absurd. At the end of the day it's a story, Sure, there are some realistic parts that contain real life opinions, but the whole closeted gay thing isn't one of them.
You're all making yourselves look like a bunch of babies the more you continue on with this incessant whining. Get over it. Walt may have been gay but he wasn't a fruit.
Did they need to be dropped? Judging from this thread most people got the idea.
It was super obvious that Walter and Matthew were knee deep in homolove, people who didn't recognize it are in denial and probably scared of dudes having big sticky orgasms together.
TT did fine with its presentation. Making it any more explicit would be needless and jarring. "Greetings, new arrivals and children! I am a gay with a male sex-partner!"
@KCohere
You're right. Only a handful of people don't seem to get it. I didn't see any black people pissing their pants when Clementine never discussed her race. (though there were furious race debates at which I was very entertained) So why should it be different for gays?
So she's aware based on your projection and hypotheticals? Read through your comment and tell me again that I'm making the assumptions.
Romero's original Dead trilogy: Night, Dawn, and Day were all three social commentaries with the most obvious being the second one Dawn of the Dead. Dawn was about mindless consumerism in America. That's why he chose a shopping mall as the main location, and the zombies represented the mindless shoppers. Night and Day aren't as in your face about it but it's there. And Kirkman has stated that he was inspired by Romero's Dead trilogy and that he also uses the zombie genre to explore social and human nature.