This whole debate is a catch-22... personally I would have been more pissed if they had been ridiculously overt with it. I'd feel like Telltale would have been saying "Yeah they're gay, and if you find anything unusual about it you're a homophobe. Look how progressive we are. Game websites, give us attention."
@rabscuttleAnd Kirkman has stated that he was inspired by Romero's Dead trilogy and that he also uses the zombie genre to explore social and human nature.
I'd like to see the source on that. Also, almost every zombie writer is inspired by Romero. That isn't really significant, especially since Robert Kirkman didn't write Telltales version at all.
Regarding the first portion of your comment, that's great. You've got one zombie writer that decided to put underlying themes into his movies, which still have nothing to do with being openly gay. If you're saying Romero's version was about consumerism, then you're saying Telltale's version is about closet gays?
Romero's original Dead trilogy: Night, Dawn, and Day were all three social commentaries with the most obvious being the second one Dawn of t… morehe Dead. Dawn was about mindless consumerism in America. That's why he chose a shopping mall as the main location, and the zombies represented the mindless shoppers. Night and Day aren't as in your face about it but it's there. And Kirkman has stated that he was inspired by Romero's Dead trilogy and that he also uses the zombie genre to explore social and human nature.
There's no reason to assume she isn't aware. The initial argument, made by you, was that she would not have an awareness, which was unfounded. I'm not saying whether or not she knows, but it's impossible to say she doesn't know.
She'd have to have been pretty sheltered not to know, though. And since she's around puberty age, then sexuality or lack thereof is something she's going to end up coming to terms with.
More of as a general thing. Gay representation in media tends to be too subtle, a la Dumbledore, and that's not really representation. It's less subtle here, which makes it okay, I suppose.
I will say that I would have preferred not having the only two gay characters in the game both die back to back, because that is bullshit.
Well no one (other than Kenny) said something about Kenny and Sarita being a couple, did they? So that's kind of a double standard if you count "That's my girl" from Kenny but don't count "my partner" from Walter. And actually I like it a lot to just have a gay couple without pointing at it. It's more inclusive that way. When it's handled more casually.
They could maybe be a little clearer, but I think it's totally fine the way they did it. Kind of similar to Bill in The Last of Us (has anyone played Left Behind? That was awesome)
Unfounded? This entire thread is about her not acknowledging it. Would you prefer to think of her as a homophobe? Unless she didn't know it's the only option.
There's no reason to assume she isn't aware. The initial argument, made by you, was that she would not have an awareness, which was unfounde… mored. I'm not saying whether or not she knows, but it's impossible to say she doesn't know.
She'd have to have been pretty sheltered not to know, though. And since she's around puberty age, then sexuality or lack thereof is something she's going to end up coming to terms with.
Ok, I understand better. But did anyone address Kenny and Sarita in that episode? I don't remember that? And participents of the couples both do state their couple-status. "my girl" and "my partner". So aren't relationships handled equally in that episode?
I do agree that, if your perception is correct that is open to criticism. Meaning if people really referred to Kenny and Sarita as couple (as I said I don't recall that, doesn't mean it's not true, I didn't play again now to confirm) and referred to Matthew and Walter only as friends that would be uneven and is to be pointed out.
Note: Since we are influenced by the world we live in, it's totally possible and even likely that I didn't pick up the couple references regarding Kenny-Sarita since they are so "normal" that I don't really recognize them anymore. Which is one of the problems regarding heteronormativity in general. That it is the de-facto-standard and the declaration of hetereosexuality is something that's rarely noted.
Like when people say: "Why do that gay persons need to out themselves? I don't "out" myself as hetero. I'm not walking around telling people I'm straight and neither should the gays." Not realizing that by openly showing their spouses they already did that. Or by talk about dating. Or something similar.
(And seriously what's with all the downvotes? If @Flog61 is correct in his/her perception his/her conclusion is totally valid and I agree with it. And if not you can argue against it. 3:31 in the OP as I write this, and it doesn't look different later on the responses)
People are missing my point, so a clarification:
It's not that it was never specifically mentioned that they were gay -I understand some … morehomophobes may not be comfortable with that truth - but that everyone clearly described them as 'friends'. They gave the relationship between the two a title and it was not like what they gave to Kenny an Katjaa.
Yes! I played Left Behind and loved it. It was a little too short for my liking given the price, but still loved it.
I also think that, if they are a gay couple, it's much better to just go about it as if it was completely normal. Like with Bill in The Last of Us, no huge deal is made out if it. And like when SPOILERS Ellie kisses Riley, not a huge deal is made about them being the same gender - other than Ellie's cute little "sorry" ^_^
Well no one (other than Kenny) said something about Kenny and Sarita being a couple, did they? So that's kind of a double standard if you co… moreunt "That's my girl" from Kenny but don't count "my partner" from Walter. And actually I like it a lot to just have a gay couple without pointing at it. It's more inclusive that way. When it's handled more casually.
They could maybe be a little clearer, but I think it's totally fine the way they did it. Kind of similar to Bill in The Last of Us (has anyone played Left Behind? That was awesome)
maybe they were just friends [now]. That's why it looked like he was staying in the place by the bridge.
Though they did say he would be back at the main cabin..so sounds sort of confusing. He made it sound like he was staying there , the cabin group made it sound he was still at main cabin. Though maybe that was just to make us assume he was just some random. (the building at the bridge thing)
I'm not saying TT version is about anything at all. I don't give shit one way or the other. I was just saying that zombies are used quite often as metaphors. As for where Kirkman said he uses the zombie genre to explore social and human nature, it was during an episode of Talking Dead.
@rabscuttle And Kirkman has stated that he was inspired by Romero's Dead trilogy and that he also uses the zombie genre to explore social an… mored human nature.
I'd like to see the source on that. Also, almost every zombie writer is inspired by Romero. That isn't really significant, especially since Robert Kirkman didn't write Telltales version at all.
Regarding the first portion of your comment, that's great. You've got one zombie writer that decided to put underlying themes into his movies, which still have nothing to do with being openly gay. If you're saying Romero's version was about consumerism, then you're saying Telltale's version is about closet gays?
Get real.
Unfounded? This entire thread is about her not acknowledging it. Would you prefer to think of her as a homophobe? Unless she didn't know it's the only option.
It was super obvious that Walter and Matthew were knee deep in homolove, people who didn't recognize it are in denial and probably scared of… more dudes having big sticky orgasms together.
TT did fine with its presentation. Making it any more explicit would be needless and jarring. "Greetings, new arrivals and children! I am a gay with a male sex-partner!"
I assumed they wouldn't want to be too openly "out" in front of a new group. I bet Kenny gave them a rough time or some gentle ribbing (er, phrasing) over it - I mean, he comments about Luke and Nick looking gay - and as such Walter isn't quite as forthcoming. He drops the word "partner" casually to gauge a reaction. It seemed realistic to me.
This isn't the first time I've seen this person attack someone's language and resort to labeling them a sexist. It's almost like Michonneisclem with the racist thing.
I couldn't agree more. The worst part is that this exact same person was practically begging for a homosexuals duo to be put in the game and when it happens he picks it apart until he hates what he once wanted.
This isn't the first time I've seen this person attack someone's language and resort to labeling them a sexist. It's almost like Michonneisclem with the racist thing.
We found out they were actually partners just before Walter died. We found out Kat was Kenny's wife pretty much the moment we met them. Calling Kat his friend would made no sense. In the five minutes we knew Walter and Matthew were actually partners there was no real chance to say, "Hey everyone, I just want to make this clear, Matthew is my partner." Besides, they met after the apocalypse started I'm fairly certain, so it's highly unlikely they would have been able to get formally married, so to say husband would zero sense. He didn't need to specifically say boyfriend, he said partner. Husband and wife call each other partners in conversation. We were told very specifically of their relationship.
Im not upset at all.
I'm just curious because almost all other relationships in the game have been told to us. Like, it would be like is describing Katjaa as Kenny's 'friend' a couple of moments after meeting them.
I know what you're saying too, because most every guy I know including myself will say "that's my guy" or some form of that. This part is more so directed at Flog. If women generally don't say something, but men do, how does this imply sexism? Couldn't it just be a difference of vernacular. Not all language is standardized, and a lot of things are regional. If you were to travel Philly, and then go to New York, people would speak quite differently. Not everyone uses perfect English, and you'll find most people aren't always going to be politically correct. That doesn't mean they are being sexist.
I couldn't agree more. The worst part is that this exact same person was practically begging for a homosexuals duo to be put in the game and when it happens he picks it apart until he hates what he once wanted.
walter says matthew is his "partner" and in the context it meant they were totally going out with each other, i didn't notice this until the second playthrough though, i don't know why there weren't more clear about it, but in real life people aren't always ready to broadcast that out loud, so i guess it fits that everybody would be subtle about it
Because that's the kind of person Kenny is. He's family oriented, boastful and possessive.
Walter did call Matthew his partner to Clem. The use of the word "friend" mostly (as I recall – only played once so far) was from others speaking about them in front of Clementine. Since one of the themes of the episode was Clem not being told everything because she's "just a kid" I read it as an extension of that. People were pussyfooting around and using euphemisms because Clem was present. Many people (and I don't say it's right) aren't up front with kids about adults they know who are gay.
In other words you could read it as the writers acknowledging that gay people are still not 100% accepted even generally unprejudiced people have subtle and unintentional ways of erecting barriers.
Why did Kenny need to tell us he was married to Katjaa?
Why did he need to tell us that he was in a relationship with Sarita?
Is he no… moret, by most people here's definition of shoving 'homosexuality down peoples throats', shoving Heterosexuality down people's throats?
EDIT: It would be nice if my disliker groupies would actually tell me HOW this assertion is wrong rather than just disliking it. That just helps no-one.
New respect for you Viva, if I had been here i'd have jumped in on your side too, you pretty much utterly voiced my opinion on this, I pretty much begged for a gay-couple too, just because there are never any.
I couldn't agree more. The worst part is that this exact same person was practically begging for a homosexuals duo to be put in the game and when it happens he picks it apart until he hates what he once wanted.
More of as a general thing. Gay representation in media tends to be too subtle, a la Dumbledore, and that's not really representation. It's … moreless subtle here, which makes it okay, I suppose.
I will say that I would have preferred not having the only two gay characters in the game both die back to back, because that is bullshit.
...Would you have rather them all been like, "Oh you'll really like Matthew, he's a homosexual, and Walter's a homosexual. They do homosexual things together."? There was a thread a few months back where someone wanted a LGBT character, and many, (including myself) were fine with that, AS LONG as it wasn't a huge deal. I still stand by that, and think TT made the right call. If you've played The Last of Us, you know Naughty Dogs did the same thing when creating Bill. Bill even referred to his partner as simply, 'his partner'. It's double standard really, you don't expect Kenny to sit Clementine down and be like, "I'm fucking Sarita" so why do you expect that from a gay couple? You stated yourself, it is obvious that they were in a relationship, there was no need to tell a group of people five minutes after meeting them. Some people like to keep their personal life, personal. Some people don't feel the need to explain their relationship with everyone. And guess what? Matthew and Walter WERE friends. Yes, they probably fucked too, but they were friends. So, it is completely appropriate for other people to refer to them as friends.
I don't know what country you live in, but we're pretty damn adjusted to gay culture here in America. Sure, we have the radical right wing conservatives but for the most part society accepts gays. I've seen plenty of movies acknoleging gays. Hell, even one of my favorite shows House of Cards isn't subtle with it. I think you're stuck in the 50's and you're ignoring the progress we've made as a people. It's quite insulting when you say things like that and it just makes you seem like a whiny child.
If there is one thing I hate more, it's when gay characters make their sexuality a big deal. Telltale was smart: they didn't make a big deal out of it and made it only a trait of the character. Him being gay wasn't important, not in the apocalypse.
Besides, him making it apparent that he was gay would be kinda immersion breaking... like "Hey, Clem, I know you're a total stranger, but I'm gay!"
They didn't explicitly state it because then they would get stick for being homophobic seeing as (in my play through anyway) only the gay guys died. Telltale Games you secret homophobics you
I feel that it was necessary to kill Matthew as that would create further tensions between the Cabin group and Kenny's group. I also feel it was necessary for Carver to kill Walter because:
Clem is protagonist
Sarita is still needed for Kenny's arc
Rebecca is holding (what Carver thinks) Carver's baby
I doubt he would kill Sarah at the moment
He already tortured Carlos a bit
Kenny and Luke are outside
That only leaves Alvin, Nick and Walter. As we can see, Alvin was next anyway, Nick is a determinate character and that just leaves Walter, and we can see that Walter dying will play some part in episode 3.
They didn't explicitly state it because then they would get stick for being homophobic seeing as (in my play through anyway) only the gay guys died. Telltale Games you secret homophobics you
I feel that it was necessary to kill Matthew as that would create further tensions between the Cabin group and Kenny's group. I also feel it… more was necessary for Carver to kill Walter because:
* Clem is protagonist
* Sarita is still needed for Kenny's arc
* Rebecca is holding (what Carver thinks) Carver's baby
* I doubt he would kill Sarah at the moment
* He already tortured Carlos a bit
* Kenny and Luke are outside
That only leaves Alvin, Nick and Walter. As we can see, Alvin was next anyway, Nick is a determinate character and that just leaves Walter, and we can see that Walter dying will play some part in episode 3.
I'm an American, who has to actually deal with the facts of queer life where it's legal to refuse a gay person housing or employment in about a quarter of all states, and refuse transpeople housing or employment in about 3/4. And this is blatant stuff; you can be discriminated against with no option for legal recourse in most states so long as they don't explain why. Gay acceptance in the US is only about 50%, and that's when people are talking in general; the numbers drop substantially when it comes to peoples' kids. Hate crime rate is extreme. Suicide rate is extreme. Rape rates are extreme. et cetera, et cetera.
Having a few characters on TV or in video games, while important (as representation does matter), one should not confuse the illusion of progress with actual progress.
I don't know what country you live in, but we're pretty damn adjusted to gay culture here in America. Sure, we have the radical right wing c… moreonservatives but for the most part society accepts gays. I've seen plenty of movies acknoleging gays. Hell, even one of my favorite shows House of Cards isn't subtle with it. I think you're stuck in the 50's and you're ignoring the progress we've made as a people. It's quite insulting when you say things like that and it just makes you seem like a whiny child.
Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.
Exactly...if I referred to a guy as "my man" thats it - we're together. But if I referred to someone as "my girl" thats something utterly different! Jut a term of endearment between friends.
And Im not homophobic. I have gay friends, my cousin is gay....but the way I see it is like having a penis. Its fine to have it. Just dont get it out and play with it in public. And truth be told, Im not keen on public displays of affection between heterosexual couples either!
No you are rephrasing the point you already made, if you were to try to refute my point using my example but changing the genders it would b… moree a girl saying 'my girl' and my point would still stand valid. Without proper integral understanding of that woman most people would assume they were good, or best, friends not lovers/partners.
Comments
This whole debate is a catch-22... personally I would have been more pissed if they had been ridiculously overt with it. I'd feel like Telltale would have been saying "Yeah they're gay, and if you find anything unusual about it you're a homophobe. Look how progressive we are. Game websites, give us attention."
I'd like to see the source on that. Also, almost every zombie writer is inspired by Romero. That isn't really significant, especially since Robert Kirkman didn't write Telltales version at all.
Regarding the first portion of your comment, that's great. You've got one zombie writer that decided to put underlying themes into his movies, which still have nothing to do with being openly gay. If you're saying Romero's version was about consumerism, then you're saying Telltale's version is about closet gays?
Get real.
There's no reason to assume she isn't aware. The initial argument, made by you, was that she would not have an awareness, which was unfounded. I'm not saying whether or not she knows, but it's impossible to say she doesn't know.
She'd have to have been pretty sheltered not to know, though. And since she's around puberty age, then sexuality or lack thereof is something she's going to end up coming to terms with.
More of as a general thing. Gay representation in media tends to be too subtle, a la Dumbledore, and that's not really representation. It's less subtle here, which makes it okay, I suppose.
I will say that I would have preferred not having the only two gay characters in the game both die back to back, because that is bullshit.
Well no one (other than Kenny) said something about Kenny and Sarita being a couple, did they? So that's kind of a double standard if you count "That's my girl" from Kenny but don't count "my partner" from Walter. And actually I like it a lot to just have a gay couple without pointing at it. It's more inclusive that way. When it's handled more casually.
They could maybe be a little clearer, but I think it's totally fine the way they did it. Kind of similar to Bill in The Last of Us (has anyone played Left Behind? That was awesome)
Unfounded? This entire thread is about her not acknowledging it. Would you prefer to think of her as a homophobe? Unless she didn't know it's the only option.
Ok, I understand better. But did anyone address Kenny and Sarita in that episode? I don't remember that? And participents of the couples both do state their couple-status. "my girl" and "my partner". So aren't relationships handled equally in that episode?
I do agree that, if your perception is correct that is open to criticism. Meaning if people really referred to Kenny and Sarita as couple (as I said I don't recall that, doesn't mean it's not true, I didn't play again now to confirm) and referred to Matthew and Walter only as friends that would be uneven and is to be pointed out.
Note: Since we are influenced by the world we live in, it's totally possible and even likely that I didn't pick up the couple references regarding Kenny-Sarita since they are so "normal" that I don't really recognize them anymore. Which is one of the problems regarding heteronormativity in general. That it is the de-facto-standard and the declaration of hetereosexuality is something that's rarely noted.
Like when people say: "Why do that gay persons need to out themselves? I don't "out" myself as hetero. I'm not walking around telling people I'm straight and neither should the gays." Not realizing that by openly showing their spouses they already did that. Or by talk about dating. Or something similar.
(And seriously what's with all the downvotes? If @Flog61 is correct in his/her perception his/her conclusion is totally valid and I agree with it. And if not you can argue against it. 3:31 in the OP as I write this, and it doesn't look different later on the responses)
Yes! I played Left Behind and loved it. It was a little too short for my liking given the price, but still loved it.
I also think that, if they are a gay couple, it's much better to just go about it as if it was completely normal. Like with Bill in The Last of Us, no huge deal is made out if it. And like when SPOILERS Ellie kisses Riley, not a huge deal is made about them being the same gender - other than Ellie's cute little "sorry" ^_^
maybe they were just friends [now]. That's why it looked like he was staying in the place by the bridge.
Though they did say he would be back at the main cabin..so sounds sort of confusing. He made it sound like he was staying there , the cabin group made it sound he was still at main cabin. Though maybe that was just to make us assume he was just some random. (the building at the bridge thing)
I'm not saying TT version is about anything at all. I don't give shit one way or the other. I was just saying that zombies are used quite often as metaphors. As for where Kirkman said he uses the zombie genre to explore social and human nature, it was during an episode of Talking Dead.
Except she's a fictional character, so there's always room for bad writing.
I would pay for an update that makes that dialogue happen.
I assumed they wouldn't want to be too openly "out" in front of a new group. I bet Kenny gave them a rough time or some gentle ribbing (er, phrasing) over it - I mean, he comments about Luke and Nick looking gay - and as such Walter isn't quite as forthcoming. He drops the word "partner" casually to gauge a reaction. It seemed realistic to me.
This isn't the first time I've seen this person attack someone's language and resort to labeling them a sexist. It's almost like Michonneisclem with the racist thing.
I couldn't agree more. The worst part is that this exact same person was practically begging for a homosexuals duo to be put in the game and when it happens he picks it apart until he hates what he once wanted.
We found out they were actually partners just before Walter died. We found out Kat was Kenny's wife pretty much the moment we met them. Calling Kat his friend would made no sense. In the five minutes we knew Walter and Matthew were actually partners there was no real chance to say, "Hey everyone, I just want to make this clear, Matthew is my partner." Besides, they met after the apocalypse started I'm fairly certain, so it's highly unlikely they would have been able to get formally married, so to say husband would zero sense. He didn't need to specifically say boyfriend, he said partner. Husband and wife call each other partners in conversation. We were told very specifically of their relationship.
I know what you're saying too, because most every guy I know including myself will say "that's my guy" or some form of that. This part is more so directed at Flog. If women generally don't say something, but men do, how does this imply sexism? Couldn't it just be a difference of vernacular. Not all language is standardized, and a lot of things are regional. If you were to travel Philly, and then go to New York, people would speak quite differently. Not everyone uses perfect English, and you'll find most people aren't always going to be politically correct. That doesn't mean they are being sexist.
walter says matthew is his "partner" and in the context it meant they were totally going out with each other, i didn't notice this until the second playthrough though, i don't know why there weren't more clear about it, but in real life people aren't always ready to broadcast that out loud, so i guess it fits that everybody would be subtle about it
I ave one word for this thread (excluding those words I just used)...subtlety
have*
Because that's the kind of person Kenny is. He's family oriented, boastful and possessive.
Walter did call Matthew his partner to Clem. The use of the word "friend" mostly (as I recall – only played once so far) was from others speaking about them in front of Clementine. Since one of the themes of the episode was Clem not being told everything because she's "just a kid" I read it as an extension of that. People were pussyfooting around and using euphemisms because Clem was present. Many people (and I don't say it's right) aren't up front with kids about adults they know who are gay.
In other words you could read it as the writers acknowledging that gay people are still not 100% accepted even generally unprejudiced people have subtle and unintentional ways of erecting barriers.
New respect for you Viva, if I had been here i'd have jumped in on your side too, you pretty much utterly voiced my opinion on this, I pretty much begged for a gay-couple too, just because there are never any.
Can anyone imagine this thread existing on a gaming forum 10 years ago without immediately nosediving?
Well done everyone.
I've already been through that. TT isn't avoiding the issue and if anything in this game is QA'd it's the dialogue.
Really? Because I feel the exact opposite.
Good they both dead
An overt example of one gay subculture doesn't make gay representation in the media unsubtle.
...Would you have rather them all been like, "Oh you'll really like Matthew, he's a homosexual, and Walter's a homosexual. They do homosexual things together."? There was a thread a few months back where someone wanted a LGBT character, and many, (including myself) were fine with that, AS LONG as it wasn't a huge deal. I still stand by that, and think TT made the right call. If you've played The Last of Us, you know Naughty Dogs did the same thing when creating Bill. Bill even referred to his partner as simply, 'his partner'. It's double standard really, you don't expect Kenny to sit Clementine down and be like, "I'm fucking Sarita" so why do you expect that from a gay couple? You stated yourself, it is obvious that they were in a relationship, there was no need to tell a group of people five minutes after meeting them. Some people like to keep their personal life, personal. Some people don't feel the need to explain their relationship with everyone. And guess what? Matthew and Walter WERE friends. Yes, they probably fucked too, but they were friends. So, it is completely appropriate for other people to refer to them as friends.
I don't know what country you live in, but we're pretty damn adjusted to gay culture here in America. Sure, we have the radical right wing conservatives but for the most part society accepts gays. I've seen plenty of movies acknoleging gays. Hell, even one of my favorite shows House of Cards isn't subtle with it. I think you're stuck in the 50's and you're ignoring the progress we've made as a people. It's quite insulting when you say things like that and it just makes you seem like a whiny child.
Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.
If there is one thing I hate more, it's when gay characters make their sexuality a big deal. Telltale was smart: they didn't make a big deal out of it and made it only a trait of the character. Him being gay wasn't important, not in the apocalypse.
Besides, him making it apparent that he was gay would be kinda immersion breaking... like "Hey, Clem, I know you're a total stranger, but I'm gay!"
They didn't explicitly state it because then they would get stick for being homophobic seeing as (in my play through anyway) only the gay guys died. Telltale Games you secret homophobics you
I feel that it was necessary to kill Matthew as that would create further tensions between the Cabin group and Kenny's group. I also feel it was necessary for Carver to kill Walter because:
That only leaves Alvin, Nick and Walter. As we can see, Alvin was next anyway, Nick is a determinate character and that just leaves Walter, and we can see that Walter dying will play some part in episode 3.
Yeah I know bro I was just fucking about lol
I'm an American, who has to actually deal with the facts of queer life where it's legal to refuse a gay person housing or employment in about a quarter of all states, and refuse transpeople housing or employment in about 3/4. And this is blatant stuff; you can be discriminated against with no option for legal recourse in most states so long as they don't explain why. Gay acceptance in the US is only about 50%, and that's when people are talking in general; the numbers drop substantially when it comes to peoples' kids. Hate crime rate is extreme. Suicide rate is extreme. Rape rates are extreme. et cetera, et cetera.
Having a few characters on TV or in video games, while important (as representation does matter), one should not confuse the illusion of progress with actual progress.
Exactly...if I referred to a guy as "my man" thats it - we're together. But if I referred to someone as "my girl" thats something utterly different! Jut a term of endearment between friends.
And Im not homophobic. I have gay friends, my cousin is gay....but the way I see it is like having a penis. Its fine to have it. Just dont get it out and play with it in public. And truth be told, Im not keen on public displays of affection between heterosexual couples either!