Same, but for Lilly fans they can say that she's wearing them because Clem wants to remember her.
Just like there would be no reason to get rid of Kenny's hypothetical bracelet, but it's still a nice idea
It's completely banal to say she didn't care about the group. You'd have to have completely ignored everything she said in order to get that… more stance. Either that or you just played so deliberately pro-Kenny that you only ever saw the side where she's nasty to you and never saw her actually working hard to take care of the group. Especially the kids. And her not saying she felt regret does not mean she felt it. She wasn't really talking that whole time. She shut down after she killed Carley. If she had felt no remorse, she'd have been her usual self and she absolutely wasn't.
Larry was not dead yet. And it's really beside the point given that on the train, if you let Kenny have his way, Duck eats EVERYONE. You can't defend Kenny for "making a hard decision" when he totally drops the ball later on. He hated Larry, and that played into why he killed him, in addition to the panic. And no, you can't say that Clem understands that Kenny was killi… [view original content]
What?
Clementine had a smile on her face when she saw Kenny. We can make decisions for the protagonist but we can't make the protagonist like the character that caused them harm.
Did you forget about the time that Kenny killed an old man in cold blood right in front of her? Or what about the time where he (determinat… moreely) beat the shit out of her guardian? Or maybe the time he said that he should've killed one of her friends?
That is quite possibly the least funny Lilly parody I've ever seen, by the way. I mean, don't get me wrong, they both suck, but Lilly is more rational than that.
She still cried and screamed when he died though. It still made an impression on her to the end, as evidenced by her talking to Lee about it if he partook, while he is dying. But how dumb do you think Clem is? Lee leaves her, Kat and Duck to talk with Kenny, maybe hears grunts and yells (though probably not), and then Lee comes back with a scar. She'd figure it out.
That's not why she killed Carley. Not in the slightest. She killed Carley, because in her grieving, paranoid mind, Carley was acting defensive, indicating guilt. She knew that the perpetrator would not be punished by anyone else, so she took it into her own hands... So yeah, bitchy, but reasonable. As for Ben, he was so fucking guilty it hurt. of course, in the moment, I wasn't putting two and two together, but look at him. He totally was. It sucked, and to a degree was really fucking stupid, but it made sense.
You forget that the old man tried to throw out a little kid that she was good friends with and punched her guardian in the face and left him… more to die and in her view, the old man was possibly dead. She didn't witness Kenny beating the shit out of Lee or even knows about it. Yeah he said he should've killed Ben who caused Katjaa and Duck's demise but did he do it though?
Lilly killed someone because she was butthurt about being called a bitch or attempted to kill a frightened teen without even listening to him, how is that rational?
Lilly wasn't keeping anybody at the motel. Kenny was staying because he wanted Lee to leave her behind and would be left with no one but the gangly shit for brains without him. Remember, Kenny said that if Lilly wanted to stay, then that's the way it is. He could have left at any time. They all could have. That's not on Lilly just because she was dead set on staying. She doesn't have power over their lives.
Do you really believe Lilly will let them leave with the supplies that they've found? as I doubt they will leave without them. She needs the group more than they need her as they are the ones(Kenny & Lee) that do the hard work. If Kenny had left, they'll all be dead, it's a good thing Kenny stayed. He maybe stubborn but he did get them all out of the jam. She was the leader was she not? She ignored the threat of a bandit attack and had no plan B and she didn't consider the lives of her group, yeah you can blame the others but at the end of the day, she's the one that makes the decisions and they follow them.
Also, pretending to be friendly? That's what's known as seriously reaching for anything to make your point. We don't know the context, but there's literally zero reason to assume Lilly was faking any kind of sincerity. Lilly clearly had an affection, or at the very least, a protectiveness for Clementine. Giving her hair thingies, reassuring Lee she would keep Clementine safe, worrying about Clementine getting sick...
She leaves people for dead after committing a sinister crime, how is this a sign of a good caring friendly person? The hair thingies seem to be the only thing used as an example of her "caring nature" but what is she gonna do with the hair thingies anyway? Andy St John built Clementine a tree swing but does that mean he cares? She only brought up Clementine getting sick just to push Lee even more into doing the investigation work. Whatever signs there are that she cared, it'll always go back to her stealing the RV and don't forget, she'll even lie to you about wanting you to come with her and tells you to get Clem only for her to take off, even if you're willing to go with her, she leaves you, where's the "care for Clem" or you for that matter in that?
Again, she didn't keep anybody there. Everyone has the ability to make their own decisions. And she protected the group by handling the rations because nobody else wanted to, holding gun training for everyone, keeping watch, saving Lee's life twice (determinant), being instrumental in saving everybody from the bandit stand-off, and fighting them back the whole time.
As I said previously, I highly doubt that she would let them leave because if they leave, they would take the supplies and as Lilly showed with the RV stunt, she looks out for herself. Besides, It was her decision to stay there even with the bandit threat lurking in the woods. I wouldn't call ration handling protecting the group, she had no problem passing it off to Lee if she didn't like it. She's a terrible watchmen as the Travis/Mr Parker incident showed. She only took one shot and killed one bandit and was hiding in the balcony during the rest of the shootout and luckily the bandits were stupid and cowardly otherwise they would've did what Carver done and executed the group after that one shot besides, she wouldn't have to "save" them if she didn't decide on staying at the motel and give an idiot like Ben the job of Watch.
I don't deny she had her faults in her leadership as well, giving special consideration to Larry over everyone else and such. But she stepped up to the job when she had to, which we can easily piece together based on the information the characters share.
We don't know how she managed to retain the leadership role after the first Episode. We don't the full information.
Of course not when you disagree with her. Kenny's a prick too when you disagree with him. But the fact that that side of her exists shows she's not in constant bitch-mode all the time.
Maybe I should've clarified, she's a bitch to you even if you agree with her.
And I never said it made her any less guilty. What it does do, however, is paint her decision in an entirely different light than murdering someone and grinning about it or having a good time like a certain weirdo in a certain DLC. I can't emphasize enough that she was wrong. But I maintain that it wasn't an act of evil. Malice, most certainly, in Carley's case. But not because she wants to watch the damn world burn.
Anybody that murders someone as kind as Carley who never did anything to her in cold blood and does not regret it afterwards is evil in my eyes. How she any different from The St Johns, The Stranger or the Bandits because they don't care who they hurt.
No, she drew wild accusations because she was losing her mind. That's not a defense, but an explanation. There's nothing to suggest she didn't like Carley prior to this. That's just fan speculation. I'm certainly not suggesting they were friends, mind you, but there was no personal vendetta here. Or if there is supposed to be, then TellTale didn't make that clear at all, or just whipped something out because they were out of ideas.
Back in Episode 1 when Carley calls Kenny "boss", it panned over to Lilly who gives a dirty look. Not to mention, in Doug's version, Lilly blames Ben, in Carley's version, Lilly blames both Ben & Carley but mostly Carley. I think that's more than enough to suggest Lilly had it out for Carley.
Actually, Danny St. John did. He's the one I tend to think of when it comes to those psychos. But you're right, most of them weren't cackling villains. However, the situations remain different. Lilly "didn't care" because she thought she was in the right. Remember that Doug's death horrifies her and she apologizes. Of course, that doesn't fix what she did and she's still guilty, but that proves right there that Lilly is capable of caring more than the Stranger or the St. Johns about fellow human beings. But with Carley, she thought she had done right. Her reasoning was wrong, but she didn't do it because she was an evil monster, no matter how often people try to paint her as one to me.
Danny St John seemed to be in shock when you shoot Jolene but even if he did come across as one of those psycho's, his brother and his mother didn't but it doesn't make them any less bad. When she shot Doug, that was more like a "shit, I shot the wrong man" look and she never apologized, if you take out her reaction after shooting her victim and her words after she's apprehended, Doug's situation is no different from Carley's. If The St Johns and The Stranger are classed as evil monsters, how is Lilly any different? What she did was worse, The St Johns did what they did for survival, The Stranger did what he did for revenge due to his fuck up, Lilly on the other hand did what she did over a petty grudge on someone she knew.
The fact that you already have this fantasy in your head where she's just playing with Clem's emotions or something by pretending to be friendly doesn't give you much credibility on this aspect.
She abandons her and leaves her for dead. Where is the care again? You're saying it doesn't give me any credibility when you use hair clips as the only example of her care.
Yes, I do, because her reaction to the news is clearly not an attempt to take a shot at Kenny. She's legitimately shocked at the revelation that Kenny was planning to leave her out there like bait. I'm sure people will try and say that's just her being manipulative, but that's just silly. She could see everything eroding around her, just like Katjaa being horrified with who Kenny was becoming.
It was to take a shot at Kenny, to make him look bad. Remember in Episode 1, she had no problem with leaving Lee, Clem, Kenny, Katjaa & Duck out there and went off on Glenn & Carley for saving them and going off on Lee, Mark & Kenny for saving Ben in Episode 2. That's why people think she's manipulative, she would not have done anything different if she was in Kenny's shoes with that screaming woman. Kenny decided to use her as bait after the woman got bit, Lilly would use her as bait before the woman got bit as shown in Episode 1 that she wouldn't waste a bullet on survivors that are in trouble and in danger of being eaten alive.
"And for the record, Kenny wanted to leave those people behind." Lee doesn't seem to think so. But hey, I actually agree on that point. Nothing Kenny says (that I can remember, anyway) indicates that he wanted to leave them behind, only when too much time has passed and ammo is running low. However, also note that Kenny was good and ready to let the woman die even before she got bitten. When she was still only screaming for help, in one dialogue choice, Kenny is seen clearly formulating the idea to leave her behind, so it's not a matter of "We can't save her, let's go".
If you as Lee say "It doesn't matter, let's keeping moving, let's just leave her", Kenny will tell you to "Let's just think about this", he could've left after Lee suggested to leave but he didn't, he was having second thoughts, he made the decision to leave after the woman got bit because there was no saving her. I doubt that he's that heartless because he did help save Ben and brought his friend/teacher back to the motel. Kenny is right, they couldn't save her after she got bit. What else did you expect him to do?
I never said he was heartless or evil either. How could I, if I don't think Lilly is either? I said that the two actions are just as horrible from a purely moralistic standpoint, and they are. We can go back and forth on the details until Maybelle comes home, but both were actions of the coldest kind of logic there is. Period.
Look at Kenny's reaction after he kills Larry then look at Lilly's reaction after she murders Carley. Kenny didn't kill Larry just for the heck of it, they were stuck in a room with an asshole who he believed was dead and he looked shocked when he smashed Larry's head with a salt lick. Lilly killed someone who did nothing to her and didn't feel a thing, didn't look shocked. From a moralistic standpoint, Lilly's action is more horrifying and cold and not to mention unnecessary.
No, that's not what I said. I said that Kenny is nothing like the saint people paint him as sometimes, as a bro who's always there through and through. No matter how you look at it, he puts himself before Clementine in that situation, and it's just as shitty as Lilly abandoning the group. Lilly actually comes through just as much as Kenny does and is just as grateful... up until she makes her mistake. Her mindset when she leaves is that nothing good will come from being in the group any longer.
The difference between the two is if you're good to Kenny, he's good to you but if you're bad to him, he's bad to you. With Lilly, if you're bad to her, she's bad to you but even if you're good to her, she's still bad to you and will pull the same stunts she does as if you were bad to her.
And yet the fact that Lilly shows genuine care towards Lee when you say "No" to her request contradicts that entirely. Yes, she abandoned him, I got that. But she could have just shoved him out right then and there. But she speaks softly and tells him she's not going to hurt him. Her care is painfully apparent, but her sense of self-preservation wins out. Bare in mind that I'm not defending her actions here. I've already said her leaving is pure selfishness. I disagree that it's a matter of evil or Lilly flat out not caring one iota. It's simply not that black and white in my mind.
Every choice you make, it'll leave with her pushing Lee out the RV except the one choice you're willing to go with her. Of course she's not gonna hurt him, what is she gonna hurt him with? She had no gun, if she did, she would force him off the RV with at gun point and if he retaliates, she'd shoot him as she already shown she's not hesitant to shoot. Why do you believe this what caring people do to one another?
In essence, it's actually the same thing Lee was planning to do to Ben and David/Travis back at the motor Inn. "Send them out on their own, I couldn't care less". We all know they wouldn't have survived, so Lee basically condemned them to death. Yes, we know Lee is flawed, but by and large, people tend to refer to him as a guy with a good, strong moral compass. But self-preservation and the preservation of those you care about at the expense of others are not too unlike each other. But it doesn't always have to make it an act of evil.
The point Lee was making is that they needed a fighting chance, Lilly expected him to leave them to die out in the woods because they were facing danger, why do you think he had Katjaa look at the injured one. At that point, how do they know they wouldn't survive on their own, they didn't know Ben was a clumsy idiot, for all they know, they were people that survived for three months.
Like the Stranger, they both never took any responsibility for the downfall that fell up on them and instead blamed others(leaving the stati… moreon wagon unguarded and keeping everybody at the motel). Not to mention The St Johns & The Stranger pretending to be friendly with Clementine, we saw this with Lilly(Jolene's video).
Lilly wasn't keeping anybody at the motel. Kenny was staying because he wanted Lee to leave her behind and would be left with no one but the gangly shit for brains without him. Remember, Kenny said that if Lilly wanted to stay, then that's the way it is. He could have left at any time. They all could have. That's not on Lilly just because she was dead set on staying. She doesn't have power over their lives.
Also, pretending to be friendly? That's what's known as seriously reaching for anything to make your point. We don't know the context, but there's literally zero reason to assume Lilly was faking any kind of … [view original content]
It's completely banal to say she didn't care about the group. You'd have to have completely ignored everything she said in order to get that stance. Either that or you just played so deliberately pro-Kenny that you only ever saw the side where she's nasty to you and never saw her actually working hard to take care of the group. Especially the kids. And her not saying she felt regret does not mean she felt it. She wasn't really talking that whole time. She shut down after she killed Carley. If she had felt no remorse, she'd have been her usual self and she absolutely wasn't.
Pro Lilly or Pro Kenny, she left the group for dead by stealing the RV, I'm sorry but I'm still struggling to see where the care is in that? What was the first thing she says after she kills Carley? she says "she couldn't be trusted", still trying to justify her actions and not once did she show any sign of regret when you talk to her on the RV. You think her pulling a puppy dog face shows she was remorseful? It's funny how her facial expression changed once she stole the RV.
Larry was not dead yet. And it's really beside the point given that on the train, if you let Kenny have his way, Duck eats EVERYONE. You can't defend Kenny for "making a hard decision" when he totally drops the ball later on. He hated Larry, and that played into why he killed him, in addition to the panic. And no, you can't say that Clem understands that Kenny was killing a dead guy since not only did everyone see his mouth move to say something, but Lee and Lilly both were telling Kenny that Larry was alive. Clementine knows that Larry was alive when he was killed. You can't exactly twist that.
I'm not defending that, he comes around later on but don't forget the situations were different. With Larry they were locked in an isolated room with no weapons and no free space, with Duck they were out in the open with their weapons intact not to mention Duck was smaller and weaker than Larry who was heavy and big. I don't think she fully knew what went on. Lilly never said he was alive, all she said that she can save him, we saw his mouth move but did Clem or any other characters see as they never brought it up.
Kenny had no reason to do what he did, same as Lilly. It was two people in absolutely horrible situations making rash decisions. That's kind of the point of the two characters and why they butted heads so often; they're very similar people, with the caveat that Kenny cared about his family more than the group, and Lilly cared more about the group than any individual member excluding the kids.
Kenny's reasoning makes more sense than Lilly's. You're acting like he killed Larry just for the heck of it. He didn't know whether Larry would come back or not, he acted rashly but it made sense as his life and others were in danger once he reanimated into a walker. Lilly killed someone who was not a threat, it was uncalled for and she didn't have any proof. Lilly took the one working vehicle that she never fixed and considered it a waste of time and left them for dead, yeah she's real caring right?
When did anyone ever say they stayed by the Everett family store and pharmacy just so she could get meds for her dad? That sounds like a contrivance to me. All of Lilly's behavior was that of someone trying to protect their group. And yeah, she loved her dad and wanted to protect him even though he was a huge asshole. Speaking as someone with such a dad, it's still hard for me not to love the guy, despite him being absolutely cruel at times.
When you refuse to go to the St John farm, Lilly says in one of her dialogues "Plus we stay close to Macon where we have access to the Pharmacy, for Dad" and not to mention in Episode 3, Kenny says to Lilly "You didn't want to go because of your dad's health" and Lilly doesn't deny this.
Again, you haven't proved that at all. It's conjecture based upon an unfounded contrivance. She was trying to protect the group against someone else who stabbed the group in the back, ie Ben, who, while a tragic fuck-up, was still at fault. Kenny trying to save Ben was supposed to be a character development, up until it's revealed in season 2 that he didn't use a bullet to put Ben out of his misery at all and instead ran for his life. So yeah, noble hero he ain't. Clem smiled because he was a familiar face. I've had instances of seeing someone I used to be friends with back during my school years, who I don't get along with now, and we smile at each other before we remember we hate each others' guts. Same deal. And since I don't guess you knew, there's a dialogue option for Clementine to say that she never liked Kenny (which I took). It's if you sit with Luke and co instead of Kenny, Sarita, and Matthew.
Protecting the group how? By shooting an unarmed person with no proof? She really cares about the group enough to rob them and leave them for dead. In Season 2, Kenny never said anything about not using the bullet to put Ben out his misery besides, he didn't have to go down there because the kid got his family killed but he did and when the walkers were swarming him and you hear Ben talking then he immediately went silent after that gunshot and we didn't hear him scream, that gives a strong indication that he put Ben out of his misery, where was the noble Lilly again? That's right, she's cruising in the RV. Clem smiling because she sees a familiar face makes no sense, so your saying she would also smile when she sees The Stranger and the St Johns because they're familiar faces? Did your school friend murder someone you were close with because he/she looked at him funny? No, not the same deal and I doubt you would have the same reaction you expect Clementine to have when she'll see Lilly and smile like nothing happened. I noticed that dialogue option but haven't clicked on it so if I have time, I'll check it out but it makes no sense considering Clem was all smiles and full of laughter when Kenny made her laugh only to turn around to say that.
Lilly and Kenny are meant to be mirrors of each other. Brash, hard-headed, and well meaning people who make awful decisions at critical points. You cannot defend what Kenny did to Larry if you slam Lilly for what she did to Doug/Carley. Me, I don't defend either of them. I understand what happened, and I don't know what kind of judgment I would support being passed on either of them.
Lets look at the reasons, Kenny didn't want to take a chance on a guy who could come back to life as a flesh eating monster that'll devour him and others in a small isolated room where they have nothing to defend themselves with plus the guy was gonna throw out his son to be devoured previously and didn't want to give him a chance. Lilly's reasoning made no sense, she targeted someone that never did anything to her and knew her for 3 months, hassled her and was getting in her face and was pressuring a weak teen to falsely finger her for a crime she has no proof to prove her case, then shoots her in cold blood and didn't give a fuck, same with Ben who she didn't give a chance to plead his case. At least Kenny showed shock for what he did, Lilly showed nothing. I'm not gonna defend or slam what Kenny did because it was understandable and not to mention Larry was a piece of shit who tried to murder you in front Clementine. I can slam Lilly because what she did was cruel, unnecessary and uncalled for and the person was not even a threat and also did nothing to her.
It's completely banal to say she didn't care about the group. You'd have to have completely ignored everything she said in order to get that… more stance. Either that or you just played so deliberately pro-Kenny that you only ever saw the side where she's nasty to you and never saw her actually working hard to take care of the group. Especially the kids. And her not saying she felt regret does not mean she felt it. She wasn't really talking that whole time. She shut down after she killed Carley. If she had felt no remorse, she'd have been her usual self and she absolutely wasn't.
Larry was not dead yet. And it's really beside the point given that on the train, if you let Kenny have his way, Duck eats EVERYONE. You can't defend Kenny for "making a hard decision" when he totally drops the ball later on. He hated Larry, and that played into why he killed him, in addition to the panic. And no, you can't say that Clem understands that Kenny was killi… [view original content]
She still cried and screamed when he died though. It still made an impression on her to the end, as evidenced by her talking to Lee about it if he partook, while he is dying. But how dumb do you think Clem is? Lee leaves her, Kat and Duck to talk with Kenny, maybe hears grunts and yells (though probably not), and then Lee comes back with a scar. She'd figure it out.
Well considering she trusted a stranger on a walkie talkie, she's not that bright because she's just kid and of course she would cry, watching something like that is traumatizing. If Lee gets beat up by Kenny and goes back to Clem, she doesn't ask anything indicating she doesn't know anything about it.
That's not why she killed Carley. Not in the slightest. She killed Carley, because in her grieving, paranoid mind, Carley was acting defensive, indicating guilt. She knew that the perpetrator would not be punished by anyone else, so she took it into her own hands... So yeah, bitchy, but reasonable. As for Ben, he was so fucking guilty it hurt. of course, in the moment, I wasn't putting two and two together, but look at him. He totally was. It sucked, and to a degree was really fucking stupid, but it made sense.
She killed Carley because she had it out for her and used the traitor excuse to hassle her, why do you think she doesn't blame Doug? Carley was being calm and rational while Lilly was going at her like a bully and then murders her in cold blood. And Ben, I had a feeling he was guilty but I still didn't know for sure he was the culprit. Point is, Lilly had no proof and didn't give anyone a chance to plead their case, she only had her word of mouth which she considered evidence. So no, what Lilly did was unreasonable.
She still cried and screamed when he died though. It still made an impression on her to the end, as evidenced by her talking to Lee about it… more if he partook, while he is dying. But how dumb do you think Clem is? Lee leaves her, Kat and Duck to talk with Kenny, maybe hears grunts and yells (though probably not), and then Lee comes back with a scar. She'd figure it out.
That's not why she killed Carley. Not in the slightest. She killed Carley, because in her grieving, paranoid mind, Carley was acting defensive, indicating guilt. She knew that the perpetrator would not be punished by anyone else, so she took it into her own hands... So yeah, bitchy, but reasonable. As for Ben, he was so fucking guilty it hurt. of course, in the moment, I wasn't putting two and two together, but look at him. He totally was. It sucked, and to a degree was really fucking stupid, but it made sense.
You can be happy to see someone you don't like. It's not a matter of duplicity. Just a matter of human emotion tends to be contradictory at the extremes.
Not that it matters. It's a dialogue option. Canon and whatnot.
She's definitely naive, as of season 1, but she's not dumb. Not in any sense (except maybe book smarts, but that's due to first grade). She's probably smarter than Ken in many ways... Also, what do you think traumatizing means? Because I find it to be (of course, this probably isn't a dictionary definition, but a connotation) something that stays with you and haunts your mind. She didn't ask questions about the scar because she knew it wasn't something that Lee would like to hear brought up.
What evidence do you have for Lilly "having it out" for her, other than "I've never trusted you"? She didn't go after Doug because Doug was calm, cool, and collected. Worried, but collected. Carley was flipping out. "Some scared bitch" sounds like an insult to me, and that means hostility. Hostility, in Lilly's mind, was probably taken as defensiveness. When are people defensive? When they're guilty. At least that's how it runs in her mind. Lilly gave them a chance to plead their cases, and she was unhappy with what they produced. Of course, it was wrong to do that, but it was perfectly reasonable. Ben wasn't giving any case other than 'Oh God stop," and Carley was giving, 'Fuck you.' Both sound somewhat guilty in the right situations. Going back to "Lilly was going at her like a bully," Carley was equally bully-like. She was only more just in what she was bullying over. Lilly killed Carley because she felt she was the judge, jury, and executioner, which, given the stress she seemed to have felt over the three month gap between episodes 1-2, and the week or so of mourning between 2-3, it seems reasonable that she would feel like this. Of course, don't get me wrong, Lilly is still sucky, but for different reasons.
She still cried and screamed when he died though. It still made an impression on her to the end, as evidenced by her talking to Lee about it… more if he partook, while he is dying. But how dumb do you think Clem is? Lee leaves her, Kat and Duck to talk with Kenny, maybe hears grunts and yells (though probably not), and then Lee comes back with a scar. She'd figure it out.
Well considering she trusted a stranger on a walkie talkie, she's not that bright because she's just kid and of course she would cry, watching something like that is traumatizing. If Lee gets beat up by Kenny and goes back to Clem, she doesn't ask anything indicating she doesn't know anything about it.
That's not why she killed Carley. Not in the slightest. She killed Carley, because in her grieving, paranoid mind, Carley was acting defensive, indicating guilt. She knew that the perpetrator would not be punished by anyone else, so she took it into her own hands... So… [view original content]
She's definitely naive, as of season 1, but she's not dumb. Not in any sense (except maybe book smarts, but that's due to first grade). She's probably smarter than Ken in many ways... Also, what do you think traumatizing means? Because I find it to be (of course, this probably isn't a dictionary definition, but a connotation) something that stays with you and haunts your mind. She didn't ask questions about the scar because she knew it wasn't something that Lee would like to hear brought up.
She asked questions about Lee's past and brought up his family even if he brushed it off. A simple "What happened to your face?" would've been more than enough to indicate she knew what went on.
What evidence do you have for Lilly "having it out" for her, other than "I've never trusted you"? She didn't go after Doug because Doug was calm, cool, and collected. Worried, but collected. Carley was flipping out. "Some scared bitch" sounds like an insult to me, and that means hostility. Hostility, in Lilly's mind, was probably taken as defensiveness. When are people defensive? When they're guilty. At least that's how it runs in her mind. Lilly gave them a chance to plead their cases, and she was unhappy with what they produced. Of course, it was wrong to do that, but it was perfectly reasonable. Ben wasn't giving any case other than 'Oh God stop," and Carley was giving, 'Fuck you.' Both sound somewhat guilty in the right situations. Going back to "Lilly was going at her like a bully," Carley was equally bully-like. She was only more just in what she was bullying over. Lilly killed Carley because she felt she was the judge, jury, and executioner, which, given the stress she seemed to have felt over the three month gap between episodes 1-2, and the week or so of mourning between 2-3, it seems reasonable that she would feel like this. Of course, don't get me wrong, Lilly is still sucky, but for different reasons.
Seriously! Not to be rude or anything but did you even pay attention to what was going on in the scene? Doug was calm, cool and collected because she never said anything to him whereas she went after Carley straight away before accusing Ben. That alone shows she had it out for her especially in Episode 1 where Lilly gives Carley a bitchy look after she calls Kenny Boss. Need I say more?
OK, lets get this straight. What you're saying is If someone gets up in a persons face and starts throwing crazy accusations at them even going as far as insulting their family, not giving you a chance to plead your case and pressuring a weak fragile teen to finger them in a crime they didn't commit or have no proof of doing, you'll know they're guilty because they call you a name? Who needs evidence when you have that, lock them up and give them a death penalty without letting them plead their case because that is what Lilly did.
How was Carley a bully? in any case, she was calm and tried to be reasonable even when Lilly was going after her and insulting her family and she still kept calm, Lilly never gave her a chance to plead her case, she called Lilly a bitch after she tried pressuring Ben to pin the crime on her and refuse to listen to anybody else, you're telling me you wouldn't lose your temper if someone got in your face, accused you and refused to listen to your case and then even go as far as to pressure a weak and fragile teenager to finger you for a crime without proof just so they have a reason to punish you? Anybody would lose it and if calling someone a name for doing something like that to you makes you a bully then call me a bully. Lilly killed Carley because she couldn't handle anyone standing up to her, I don't buy that she thought Carley was the traitor when she leaves Doug alone. I'm sure she was not the only one in the group that felt stressed, you forget that she's not the only one surviving in the apocalypse and if others can refrain themselves from shooting someone over petty name calling, what's her excuse?
She's definitely naive, as of season 1, but she's not dumb. Not in any sense (except maybe book smarts, but that's due to first grade). She'… mores probably smarter than Ken in many ways... Also, what do you think traumatizing means? Because I find it to be (of course, this probably isn't a dictionary definition, but a connotation) something that stays with you and haunts your mind. She didn't ask questions about the scar because she knew it wasn't something that Lee would like to hear brought up.
What evidence do you have for Lilly "having it out" for her, other than "I've never trusted you"? She didn't go after Doug because Doug was calm, cool, and collected. Worried, but collected. Carley was flipping out. "Some scared bitch" sounds like an insult to me, and that means hostility. Hostility, in Lilly's mind, was probably taken as defensiveness. When are people defensive? When they're guilty. At least that's how it runs in her mind. Lilly gave … [view original content]
Oh, son of a bitch. Sorry, dude. My laptop ran out of battery right as I was about to give you a big long multi-paragraph post, and I don't feel like writing it again. You know what? We needed to tone it down anyways. Let me just very quickly summarize.
You seem to be getting me wrong, I don't like Lilly. She was wrong for what she did, but it made logical sense. I'd go deeper into the logic, but as previously stated, I don't want to make another long-ass post.
You need more than one piece of evidence to support your claims.
Doug and Carley are fundamentally different people, leading Lilly to think of them differently.
She's definitely naive, as of season 1, but she's not dumb. Not in any sense (except maybe book smarts, but that's due to first grade). She'… mores probably smarter than Ken in many ways... Also, what do you think traumatizing means? Because I find it to be (of course, this probably isn't a dictionary definition, but a connotation) something that stays with you and haunts your mind. She didn't ask questions about the scar because she knew it wasn't something that Lee would like to hear brought up.
She asked questions about Lee's past and brought up his family even if he brushed it off. A simple "What happened to your face?" would've been more than enough to indicate she knew what went on.
What evidence do you have for Lilly "having it out" for her, other than "I've never trusted you"? She didn't go after Doug because Doug was calm, cool, and collected. Worried, but collected. Carley was flipping out. "Some scared bitch" sounds like an… [view original content]
I agree we need to tone it down because I hate long posts.
Yes Doug & Carley are different people but their positions are the same, Lilly goes straight after Carley instead of the newcomer Ben, she even goes as far as insulting her family, that alone tells you that she doesn't like her. After Episode 1, Carley has done nothing that would make her be distrustful, she was just like Doug, helping the group and assisting Lee and not to mention do not get involved with arguments with Lilly but the fact that Doug doesn't get any blame makes you think there was more to it than just finding the so called traitor for Lilly. Not to mention that dirty look Lilly gave Carley in Episode 1.
If this doesn't make you think that Lilly just didn't like Carley and was the real reason she killed her then I don't know what will because this is all I've got to support my claims.
Oh, son of a bitch. Sorry, dude. My laptop ran out of battery right as I was about to give you a big long multi-paragraph post, and I don't … morefeel like writing it again. You know what? We needed to tone it down anyways. Let me just very quickly summarize.
You seem to be getting me wrong, I don't like Lilly. She was wrong for what she did, but it made logical sense. I'd go deeper into the logic, but as previously stated, I don't want to make another long-ass post.
You need more than one piece of evidence to support your claims.
Doug and Carley are fundamentally different people, leading Lilly to think of them differently.
Comments
When Lee cuts Clem's hair in episode 3.
Yeah but why would Clem want to "remember" her? She shot Carley/Doug in the face!
Those are some long ass posts O___O
You said, "She cuts her hair and ties back the rest with Lilly's hair 'thingies'. If you watch that scene again you will see it."
Since you said "she", I assumed that you weren't talking about Lee.
If you sit with Luke and co instead of Kenny, you can say you never liked him.
Actually, Kenny doesn't beat Lee up if you can convince him to stop the train.
god bless these repliers
She can determinantly want to remember Kenny, and he dropped a salt luck on a guys head in front of her and told lee to kill her friend.
why did you get a pic of them kissing ( i don't diss gays)
Oh my god, too much too read.. Sorry
Because I liked their romance in me3
She still cried and screamed when he died though. It still made an impression on her to the end, as evidenced by her talking to Lee about it if he partook, while he is dying. But how dumb do you think Clem is? Lee leaves her, Kat and Duck to talk with Kenny, maybe hears grunts and yells (though probably not), and then Lee comes back with a scar. She'd figure it out.
That's not why she killed Carley. Not in the slightest. She killed Carley, because in her grieving, paranoid mind, Carley was acting defensive, indicating guilt. She knew that the perpetrator would not be punished by anyone else, so she took it into her own hands... So yeah, bitchy, but reasonable. As for Ben, he was so fucking guilty it hurt. of course, in the moment, I wasn't putting two and two together, but look at him. He totally was. It sucked, and to a degree was really fucking stupid, but it made sense.
Yeah... But we're talking about the best possible determinate actions to prove our points.
Do you really believe Lilly will let them leave with the supplies that they've found? as I doubt they will leave without them. She needs the group more than they need her as they are the ones(Kenny & Lee) that do the hard work. If Kenny had left, they'll all be dead, it's a good thing Kenny stayed. He maybe stubborn but he did get them all out of the jam. She was the leader was she not? She ignored the threat of a bandit attack and had no plan B and she didn't consider the lives of her group, yeah you can blame the others but at the end of the day, she's the one that makes the decisions and they follow them.
She leaves people for dead after committing a sinister crime, how is this a sign of a good caring friendly person? The hair thingies seem to be the only thing used as an example of her "caring nature" but what is she gonna do with the hair thingies anyway? Andy St John built Clementine a tree swing but does that mean he cares? She only brought up Clementine getting sick just to push Lee even more into doing the investigation work. Whatever signs there are that she cared, it'll always go back to her stealing the RV and don't forget, she'll even lie to you about wanting you to come with her and tells you to get Clem only for her to take off, even if you're willing to go with her, she leaves you, where's the "care for Clem" or you for that matter in that?
As I said previously, I highly doubt that she would let them leave because if they leave, they would take the supplies and as Lilly showed with the RV stunt, she looks out for herself. Besides, It was her decision to stay there even with the bandit threat lurking in the woods. I wouldn't call ration handling protecting the group, she had no problem passing it off to Lee if she didn't like it. She's a terrible watchmen as the Travis/Mr Parker incident showed. She only took one shot and killed one bandit and was hiding in the balcony during the rest of the shootout and luckily the bandits were stupid and cowardly otherwise they would've did what Carver done and executed the group after that one shot besides, she wouldn't have to "save" them if she didn't decide on staying at the motel and give an idiot like Ben the job of Watch.
We don't know how she managed to retain the leadership role after the first Episode. We don't the full information.
Maybe I should've clarified, she's a bitch to you even if you agree with her.
Anybody that murders someone as kind as Carley who never did anything to her in cold blood and does not regret it afterwards is evil in my eyes. How she any different from The St Johns, The Stranger or the Bandits because they don't care who they hurt.
Back in Episode 1 when Carley calls Kenny "boss", it panned over to Lilly who gives a dirty look. Not to mention, in Doug's version, Lilly blames Ben, in Carley's version, Lilly blames both Ben & Carley but mostly Carley. I think that's more than enough to suggest Lilly had it out for Carley.
Danny St John seemed to be in shock when you shoot Jolene but even if he did come across as one of those psycho's, his brother and his mother didn't but it doesn't make them any less bad. When she shot Doug, that was more like a "shit, I shot the wrong man" look and she never apologized, if you take out her reaction after shooting her victim and her words after she's apprehended, Doug's situation is no different from Carley's. If The St Johns and The Stranger are classed as evil monsters, how is Lilly any different? What she did was worse, The St Johns did what they did for survival, The Stranger did what he did for revenge due to his fuck up, Lilly on the other hand did what she did over a petty grudge on someone she knew.
She abandons her and leaves her for dead. Where is the care again? You're saying it doesn't give me any credibility when you use hair clips as the only example of her care.
It was to take a shot at Kenny, to make him look bad. Remember in Episode 1, she had no problem with leaving Lee, Clem, Kenny, Katjaa & Duck out there and went off on Glenn & Carley for saving them and going off on Lee, Mark & Kenny for saving Ben in Episode 2. That's why people think she's manipulative, she would not have done anything different if she was in Kenny's shoes with that screaming woman. Kenny decided to use her as bait after the woman got bit, Lilly would use her as bait before the woman got bit as shown in Episode 1 that she wouldn't waste a bullet on survivors that are in trouble and in danger of being eaten alive.
If you as Lee say "It doesn't matter, let's keeping moving, let's just leave her", Kenny will tell you to "Let's just think about this", he could've left after Lee suggested to leave but he didn't, he was having second thoughts, he made the decision to leave after the woman got bit because there was no saving her. I doubt that he's that heartless because he did help save Ben and brought his friend/teacher back to the motel. Kenny is right, they couldn't save her after she got bit. What else did you expect him to do?
Look at Kenny's reaction after he kills Larry then look at Lilly's reaction after she murders Carley. Kenny didn't kill Larry just for the heck of it, they were stuck in a room with an asshole who he believed was dead and he looked shocked when he smashed Larry's head with a salt lick. Lilly killed someone who did nothing to her and didn't feel a thing, didn't look shocked. From a moralistic standpoint, Lilly's action is more horrifying and cold and not to mention unnecessary.
The difference between the two is if you're good to Kenny, he's good to you but if you're bad to him, he's bad to you. With Lilly, if you're bad to her, she's bad to you but even if you're good to her, she's still bad to you and will pull the same stunts she does as if you were bad to her.
Every choice you make, it'll leave with her pushing Lee out the RV except the one choice you're willing to go with her. Of course she's not gonna hurt him, what is she gonna hurt him with? She had no gun, if she did, she would force him off the RV with at gun point and if he retaliates, she'd shoot him as she already shown she's not hesitant to shoot. Why do you believe this what caring people do to one another?
The point Lee was making is that they needed a fighting chance, Lilly expected him to leave them to die out in the woods because they were facing danger, why do you think he had Katjaa look at the injured one. At that point, how do they know they wouldn't survive on their own, they didn't know Ben was a clumsy idiot, for all they know, they were people that survived for three months.
Pro Lilly or Pro Kenny, she left the group for dead by stealing the RV, I'm sorry but I'm still struggling to see where the care is in that? What was the first thing she says after she kills Carley? she says "she couldn't be trusted", still trying to justify her actions and not once did she show any sign of regret when you talk to her on the RV. You think her pulling a puppy dog face shows she was remorseful? It's funny how her facial expression changed once she stole the RV.
I'm not defending that, he comes around later on but don't forget the situations were different. With Larry they were locked in an isolated room with no weapons and no free space, with Duck they were out in the open with their weapons intact not to mention Duck was smaller and weaker than Larry who was heavy and big. I don't think she fully knew what went on. Lilly never said he was alive, all she said that she can save him, we saw his mouth move but did Clem or any other characters see as they never brought it up.
Kenny's reasoning makes more sense than Lilly's. You're acting like he killed Larry just for the heck of it. He didn't know whether Larry would come back or not, he acted rashly but it made sense as his life and others were in danger once he reanimated into a walker. Lilly killed someone who was not a threat, it was uncalled for and she didn't have any proof. Lilly took the one working vehicle that she never fixed and considered it a waste of time and left them for dead, yeah she's real caring right?
When you refuse to go to the St John farm, Lilly says in one of her dialogues "Plus we stay close to Macon where we have access to the Pharmacy, for Dad" and not to mention in Episode 3, Kenny says to Lilly "You didn't want to go because of your dad's health" and Lilly doesn't deny this.
Protecting the group how? By shooting an unarmed person with no proof? She really cares about the group enough to rob them and leave them for dead. In Season 2, Kenny never said anything about not using the bullet to put Ben out his misery besides, he didn't have to go down there because the kid got his family killed but he did and when the walkers were swarming him and you hear Ben talking then he immediately went silent after that gunshot and we didn't hear him scream, that gives a strong indication that he put Ben out of his misery, where was the noble Lilly again? That's right, she's cruising in the RV. Clem smiling because she sees a familiar face makes no sense, so your saying she would also smile when she sees The Stranger and the St Johns because they're familiar faces? Did your school friend murder someone you were close with because he/she looked at him funny? No, not the same deal and I doubt you would have the same reaction you expect Clementine to have when she'll see Lilly and smile like nothing happened. I noticed that dialogue option but haven't clicked on it so if I have time, I'll check it out but it makes no sense considering Clem was all smiles and full of laughter when Kenny made her laugh only to turn around to say that.
Lets look at the reasons, Kenny didn't want to take a chance on a guy who could come back to life as a flesh eating monster that'll devour him and others in a small isolated room where they have nothing to defend themselves with plus the guy was gonna throw out his son to be devoured previously and didn't want to give him a chance. Lilly's reasoning made no sense, she targeted someone that never did anything to her and knew her for 3 months, hassled her and was getting in her face and was pressuring a weak teen to falsely finger her for a crime she has no proof to prove her case, then shoots her in cold blood and didn't give a fuck, same with Ben who she didn't give a chance to plead his case. At least Kenny showed shock for what he did, Lilly showed nothing. I'm not gonna defend or slam what Kenny did because it was understandable and not to mention Larry was a piece of shit who tried to murder you in front Clementine. I can slam Lilly because what she did was cruel, unnecessary and uncalled for and the person was not even a threat and also did nothing to her.
Well considering she trusted a stranger on a walkie talkie, she's not that bright because she's just kid and of course she would cry, watching something like that is traumatizing. If Lee gets beat up by Kenny and goes back to Clem, she doesn't ask anything indicating she doesn't know anything about it.
She killed Carley because she had it out for her and used the traitor excuse to hassle her, why do you think she doesn't blame Doug? Carley was being calm and rational while Lilly was going at her like a bully and then murders her in cold blood. And Ben, I had a feeling he was guilty but I still didn't know for sure he was the culprit. Point is, Lilly had no proof and didn't give anyone a chance to plead their case, she only had her word of mouth which she considered evidence. So no, what Lilly did was unreasonable.
And like I already said, that option made no sense.
I smile at people I dislike all the time, sometimes even earnestly. Doesn't mean I don't dislike em.
Don't talk about her >:(
Even going as far as hugging them and laughing with them? Clem doesn't strike me as someone that is two-faced.
You can be happy to see someone you don't like. It's not a matter of duplicity. Just a matter of human emotion tends to be contradictory at the extremes.
Not that it matters. It's a dialogue option. Canon and whatnot.
She's definitely naive, as of season 1, but she's not dumb. Not in any sense (except maybe book smarts, but that's due to first grade). She's probably smarter than Ken in many ways... Also, what do you think traumatizing means? Because I find it to be (of course, this probably isn't a dictionary definition, but a connotation) something that stays with you and haunts your mind. She didn't ask questions about the scar because she knew it wasn't something that Lee would like to hear brought up.
What evidence do you have for Lilly "having it out" for her, other than "I've never trusted you"? She didn't go after Doug because Doug was calm, cool, and collected. Worried, but collected. Carley was flipping out. "Some scared bitch" sounds like an insult to me, and that means hostility. Hostility, in Lilly's mind, was probably taken as defensiveness. When are people defensive? When they're guilty. At least that's how it runs in her mind. Lilly gave them a chance to plead their cases, and she was unhappy with what they produced. Of course, it was wrong to do that, but it was perfectly reasonable. Ben wasn't giving any case other than 'Oh God stop," and Carley was giving, 'Fuck you.' Both sound somewhat guilty in the right situations. Going back to "Lilly was going at her like a bully," Carley was equally bully-like. She was only more just in what she was bullying over. Lilly killed Carley because she felt she was the judge, jury, and executioner, which, given the stress she seemed to have felt over the three month gap between episodes 1-2, and the week or so of mourning between 2-3, it seems reasonable that she would feel like this. Of course, don't get me wrong, Lilly is still sucky, but for different reasons.
I love how this gets four thumbs down, despite it being literally true.
She asked questions about Lee's past and brought up his family even if he brushed it off. A simple "What happened to your face?" would've been more than enough to indicate she knew what went on.
Seriously! Not to be rude or anything but did you even pay attention to what was going on in the scene? Doug was calm, cool and collected because she never said anything to him whereas she went after Carley straight away before accusing Ben. That alone shows she had it out for her especially in Episode 1 where Lilly gives Carley a bitchy look after she calls Kenny Boss. Need I say more?
OK, lets get this straight. What you're saying is If someone gets up in a persons face and starts throwing crazy accusations at them even going as far as insulting their family, not giving you a chance to plead your case and pressuring a weak fragile teen to finger them in a crime they didn't commit or have no proof of doing, you'll know they're guilty because they call you a name? Who needs evidence when you have that, lock them up and give them a death penalty without letting them plead their case because that is what Lilly did.
How was Carley a bully? in any case, she was calm and tried to be reasonable even when Lilly was going after her and insulting her family and she still kept calm, Lilly never gave her a chance to plead her case, she called Lilly a bitch after she tried pressuring Ben to pin the crime on her and refuse to listen to anybody else, you're telling me you wouldn't lose your temper if someone got in your face, accused you and refused to listen to your case and then even go as far as to pressure a weak and fragile teenager to finger you for a crime without proof just so they have a reason to punish you? Anybody would lose it and if calling someone a name for doing something like that to you makes you a bully then call me a bully. Lilly killed Carley because she couldn't handle anyone standing up to her, I don't buy that she thought Carley was the traitor when she leaves Doug alone. I'm sure she was not the only one in the group that felt stressed, you forget that she's not the only one surviving in the apocalypse and if others can refrain themselves from shooting someone over petty name calling, what's her excuse?
Oh, son of a bitch. Sorry, dude. My laptop ran out of battery right as I was about to give you a big long multi-paragraph post, and I don't feel like writing it again. You know what? We needed to tone it down anyways. Let me just very quickly summarize.
You seem to be getting me wrong, I don't like Lilly. She was wrong for what she did, but it made logical sense. I'd go deeper into the logic, but as previously stated, I don't want to make another long-ass post.
You need more than one piece of evidence to support your claims.
Doug and Carley are fundamentally different people, leading Lilly to think of them differently.
Yes Doug & Carley are different people but their positions are the same, Lilly goes straight after Carley instead of the newcomer Ben, she even goes as far as insulting her family, that alone tells you that she doesn't like her. After Episode 1, Carley has done nothing that would make her be distrustful, she was just like Doug, helping the group and assisting Lee and not to mention do not get involved with arguments with Lilly but the fact that Doug doesn't get any blame makes you think there was more to it than just finding the so called traitor for Lilly. Not to mention that dirty look Lilly gave Carley in Episode 1.
If this doesn't make you think that Lilly just didn't like Carley and was the real reason she killed her then I don't know what will because this is all I've got to support my claims.