"I'm glad you're with us, Clementine."
- Direct quote from Alvin, in the little station house when he and Clem are searching it for food.
I guess this is a small criticism for season 2. And don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the season so far and really like the characters for the most part. Maybe it isn't even thread-worthy...
But, using this line as an example, do you find that the cabin group as a whole are just too accepting of Clementine? For example, say you forced Alvin to help you get medical supplies in "All That Remains" by threatening him. Or say you threaten him, but back off by saying "I wouldn't actually do that." Then once you're found out in the shed to have stolen supplies you opt to say "I didn't do it alone..." Wouldn't Alvin recognize that as Clementine selling him up the river? I've got a few different playthroughs, including a couple variations of selling out Alvin... yet, the dialogue in the station remains the same. Overall friendly ending with "I'm glad you're with us, Clementine."
I think that would have been a good opportunity for some possible confrontation. If "All That Remains" was too anti-cabin group, "A House Divided" is a bit too pro-cabin group.
There are other examples too, obviously. It's been noted that Carlos leaves Sarah in Clem's care even if he doesn't trust you at all. Rebecca softens up to you even if act like a little shit to her. Nick confides in you even if you don't forgive him and then ditch him in the shed.
Just seems to me in season 1, there was more determinants relationship-wise. But to use an example from season 1, some of this stuff would be like if you threatened Vernon into coming with you and Brie and/or Vernon still acted all friendly and happy towards you.
A couple disclaimers, yes, I understand:
- it's early in the story
- a lot of this stuff is necessary to move the story forward or connect you with these new characters
- that Telltale is already spinning a large web of several different story paths and I shouldn't get greedy or knit-pick
Comments
If they're going to keep her in the group, they pretty much have to accept her. Clem wouldnt want to be in a group where they're openly hostile and distrustful of her every minute. In spite of the little bratty things she's able to say sometimes, if you choose, she's been useful to the group and for the most part, respectful. Plus, after what they did to her, putting her in the garage and forcing her to sew herself up, Im sure there's still a bit of guilt there. Theyve been with her for, what, a week? I think thats long enough to get to know her and start softening towards her, as well as gaining respect for what she's been able to accomplish on her own.
Luke obviously had a "This isn't a democracy anymore" speech at the end of episode 1 that got cut from the game.
Yeah, this is also a complain of mine. I'd add Rebecca to the list. Little girl or not, hormones or not, how does Clem get away with (determinately) threatening to tell Alvin that baby may not be his? Just... no. Kenny or Lilly would've given you hell for less, and while I understand she's younger and yadda yadda, it is somewhat off-putting.
I have said that for all the (possible, not confirmed) branching Telltale is implementing with the big decisions, they are forgetting about the small, "social" decisions that affect how other characters perceive the PC, in which S1 specialized on.
There are subtler ways of making characters sympathetic to us, other than writing a 180º turn on their personalities. Besides, your main cast doesn't have to be completely likeable for us to care about them. They want to make trust the recurring theme this season; well trust is earned and kept. If we as Clementine fail to cultivate that trust in the new group -or at least with some members-, the story shouldn't set itself by default in a scenario where everybody trusts Clem.
Also, we still don't know this people very well, k, HUBS, bye.
Drops mic
It's a Clemocracy
Yeah, they can begin to accept her and realize that she is useful, but they don't have to like her, especially if she's been particularly antagonistic towards some of them.
She isnt always. I think you want two streams of gameplay where in one, they trust her and like her and another where they dont? I just dont see how that would work. Even when she's being a little bratty, its not extreme. I think its bode well for them that they're not holding a grudge against a little kid who has been through hell. Now, thinking about it, I dont think its necessarily true that they all "like" her. Luke does of course. Alvin does but we saw him soften toward her in the juicebox scene. Rebecca is willing to stop biting her head off and give he a chance. Carlos was forced to trust her with Sarah and since she looked out for her, he's willing to give her a chance. Nick, I dont know if he likes anyone, but he warmed toward her when she stuck up for him. Clementine is earning their trust and respect and I do think that they like her spirit and independent nature. It feels like a natural progression to me but YMMV.
What? No way he had a Ricktator speech, lol
I don't know what they could distrust her on. Granted, they give her a lot of freedom for having just met her, but as Luke said:
Everybody in the group, even Rebecca, who was the most cruel to Clem, tried to make amends with her. Now that they know she is not with Carver and that she was in fact telling the truth about the bite, anymore distrust from them would make Clem hate the entire group rather than just the select few. If they continued down the path, I think it would create a predictable and repeating theme through the season (IMO).
I agree it did feel a bit rushed with the sudden trust, but frankly, Clem has earned it since she hasn't lied to them once. Clem's actions were understandable in All That Remains and I think the group saw that and tried their best to make amends. Now it seems that we have to decide ourselves whether or not we find these people trustworthy. Their trust, I think, is more as a way to apologize for their earlier distrust.
Now it seems that we are stuck between two things: trusting Carver to not trust the group or trust the group to not trust Carver. Carver said that Alvin murdered a man; what does that mean for us? We are probably going to find out more in Episode 3, but that made me question what I once thought about Alvin.
Besides, if we had to choose between Kenny and Luke later on, if we have a group who still doesn't trust us, the choice would be obvious. I think they really had no choice but to do that for the good of the story.
If it is too much for them to handle, it doesn't have to radically change the story in some areas, but acknowledge how they may feel about her. For example, the climax of Starved for Help will play out almost exactly the same whether you help Lilly, or Kenny, or neither. You will defeat Andy, but their attitudes towards you change. Hell, Lilly will or will not help you depending on what you chose, but in the end, the story progresses as it was intended, while also changing the group dynamics for future episodes.
Will it matter in the end if Kenny hates me or loves me? Nope, not from the plot standpoint, but yes in what is the story and group each player crafted with their choices and responses. The illusion of choice was strong in S1 because these characters reacted differently to what you said and did. Now, I can Glare at Nick, blackmail Rebecca, threaten (That was cute, tho) Alvin, tell Carlos he is a shitty parent, and could very well tell the whole cabin group to pike off... and they would be A-OK with it in A House Divided.
It's not something unreasonable to ask, I think. After all, they've done it before.
I think the difference is in S1 you were playing as a grown man who can make his own decisions, but in S2 you are playing as a little girl who is easier to forgive because she is just that, a child.
Well, let me ask you this: how would you expect them to act toward her? I mean, what would they say to her, or do to show that they dont like her and how would Clementine react, in your opinion?
Yeah, I guess that's a justification.
Huh. Never thought of it like that. That would fit in well her option to say "everyone underestimates me" to Walter. If they're lowering their guard this quickly after she manipulated all of them, that's just another way of thinking she's incapable. Sets things up nicely, really. With Luke gone, there's not one person 100% in her corner right now or at least no one that sees her value like he does. Plays well into how Carver will try to manipulate Clem, I bet. He'll see the value in her and she'll appreciate that.
Just spitballing.
Well, I didn't know about Carlos' ambivalent response to Clem taking care of Sarah if you told him she needed to grow up back in All That Remains, but I guess more of that. I realize that she is still a child, but adults calling kids out on their attitude is not unheard of.
Rebecca may have toned down her attitude but be somewhat resentful towards Clem when left alone in the ski-lodge. Instead of asking her to feel her baby and ask for advice, she may have been more distanced. She could've even brought it up more directly and instead of the "If he finds out it's not his..." have it be more like "Would you really tell him?" or for her to directly plead Clem not to do so.
To use the OP's example, Alvin could have given Clem a lecture on why threatening him was wrong instead of just "I'm glad you're with us". When Lee acted like an asshole and people made him aware of that, he could act remorseful. Clementine could have apologized, stood by her decision, or of course "...".
Maybe the Kenny/Lilly examples I used seemed a little too extreme, considering who they were dealing with. A man fully grown and aware of what he was doing, but they are the best examples I could remember. Two less harsh come to mind: How you acted towards Hershel and what he said to you about honesty, not being an asshole and that sort of thing; and also Christa confronting Lee at the train station about taking Clementine with him.
Varying responses don't have to be as extreme or negative as they were with Lee, but they have to at least be there.
A few things to consider:
I have a theory that may or may not be confirmed in the next episodes on why they are this "incompetent". We don't really know how long they've stayed at the cabin. From what I can gather, they were members of Carver's utopia until the incident that forced them to leave. This could have happened relatively recently and they may just now be learning some things other groups already know.
Interesting and thanks for answering but in all honesty, I dont think most fans would have the patience to deal with a lot of lectures and people telling Clementine she's wrong. I feel like it would just make them resent the characters who are doing it.
Yeah, thanks for baring with me. To sum up, I just think it's weird them not reacting to the negative attitude Clem can determinately show.
Confrontation isn't exclusive to lectures, and I thought it was one of the things that made last season so effective. People may have not agreed with you on things, or how you treated them, and they would let you know. There were simple comments of disagreement, lectures, and there also was Kenny and his "with me or against me" attitude, but there also was praise for certain decisions, trust, etc. It all made the relationships and characters all the more complex. I don't like Kenny as a person most of the time, but I would be mad not to appreciate what his character does.
In the end, I guess it doesn't matter. The game will be what they think it must be. This is a minor grievance, really, and I'd rather have them focus on other things.
Yes, so far ive been disappointed that any choices we chose in Ep1 dialogue wise like standing up to Rebecca or not being friends with Sarah, nothing has come up in episode 2, all dialogue is practically the same