Hee. I mostly forgot about this thread because its been awhile, but your bump/response reminds me. I practically yelled "What the fuck!" when he shot him, but honestly, that was significantly more understandable this time around. And despite not accepting his apology in episode 1, I did back him up and he's still alive in my playthrough. I'm rather surprised that occurred, given my distaste of his previous actions and the Matthew thing not helping.
But this time I did see genuine remorse, and more importantly, Pete really tugged at my heart strings to help the poor guy out, even if the Matthew thing really still feels like he's going to be a terrible detriment. I'm kind of impressed and happy with the result at the moment; its adding a lot of character to Clem/Nick's relationship/story since she's tolerating a likable train-wreck who's ultimately not malicious in the slightest. Its much more satisfying than Ben who's mistakes were almost comic relief at points, such as removing the handle from the door barricading zombies.
Edit: Also I would say it wasn't only feeling bad for Nick and guilt/wanting to satisfy Pete's last wishes that made me want to protect/keep him alive. It was Walter's wording, "like everybody else". Couldn't say that, it would have been quite wrong.
It's interesting that, if you don't accept Nick's apology, then you never learn about the group's previous experience or what happened to Nick's mom. This makes everyone's actions a lot harder to understand and emphasize with.
I like him because I understand not only his actions, but how he came to be that way. Pete's too hard on him, and then he goes and embarrasses him in front of other people. How would you feel if your parental figure went around telling other people how much you messed up, and not even in a good-hearted way?
Hee. I mostly forgot about this thread because its been awhile, but your bump/response reminds me. I practically yelled "What the fuck!" whe… moren he shot him, but honestly, that was significantly more understandable this time around. And despite not accepting his apology in episode 1, I did back him up and he's still alive in my playthrough. I'm rather surprised that occurred, given my distaste of his previous actions and the Matthew thing not helping.
But this time I did see genuine remorse, and more importantly, Pete really tugged at my heart strings to help the poor guy out, even if the Matthew thing really still feels like he's going to be a terrible detriment. I'm kind of impressed and happy with the result at the moment; its adding a lot of character to Clem/Nick's relationship/story since she's tolerating a likable train-wreck who's ultimately not malicious in the slightest. Its much more satisfying than Ben who's mistakes were almost c… [view original content]
True. But at the same time, 'method acting it' as I kind of said before, its difficult to care that what happened to his mother screwed him up. Its good from a writing perspective that he has a reason to be the equivalent of damaged goods to do the thing he did-- otherwise he'd just a liability for no good reason. But its difficult to care about why he's screwed up when you're almost gut shot by him immediately and he excuses himself because you moved/talked/tried to run. As the victim, I have a hard time buying such eloquent empathy extended towards a person who almost murdered you. The sun hadn't even risen yet when he's fishing for his apology. :S
This is true in modern crimes today. Someone is murdered or almost killed by someone who's damaged from growing up or has mental health issues? Sure, they get sympathetic ears and reduced sentences, but the victims are usually not the ones being all that forgiving. And those are extended affairs, not fresh ones. It looks more like a Jury or Judge is going by his actions rather than Clementine(the victim) going by his actions. This is the tunnel/perception that's throwing me here.
It's interesting that, if you don't accept Nick's apology, then you never learn about the group's previous experience or what happened to Ni… moreck's mom. This makes everyone's actions a lot harder to understand and emphasize with.
I like him because I understand not only his actions, but how he came to be that way. Pete's too hard on him, and then he goes and embarrasses him in front of other people. How would you feel if your parental figure went around telling other people how much you messed up, and not even in a good-hearted way?
Is it really, though? Nick panicked and launched into action to protect his friends. His actions were not out of malice or likely even that conscious. And once you've learned his story, I think it makes perfect sense to care. I know I did. Seems like he's got quite a few other fans, too.
True. But at the same time, 'method acting it' as I kind of said before, its difficult to care that what happened to his mother screwed him … moreup. Its good from a writing perspective that he has a reason to be the equivalent of damaged goods to do the thing he did-- otherwise he'd just a liability for no good reason. But its difficult to care about why he's screwed up when you're almost gut shot by him immediately and he excuses himself because you moved/talked/tried to run. As the victim, I have a hard time buying such eloquent empathy extended towards a person who almost murdered you. The sun hadn't even risen yet when he's fishing for his apology. :S
This is true in modern crimes today. Someone is murdered or almost killed by someone who's damaged from growing up or has mental health issues? Sure, they get sympathetic ears and reduced sentences, but the victims are usually not the ones being all that forgiving. And those are extended affai… [view original content]
I completely agree with you. Everything you said has been my thoughts since Episode 1 involving him and i thought i was the only one that noticed these things. Even just by watching his expressions and gestures about certain things you can see that he's not bad. He shows genuine remorse for his actions as well. I just wish more people would actually take time to sit and analyse/observe characters, there is usually a lot more to them than what people originally see.
Not just Nick, but characters like Ben, Lily, ect.
Is it really, though? Nick panicked and launched into action to protect his friends. His actions were not out of malice or likely even tha… moret conscious. And once you've learned his story, I think it makes perfect sense to care. I know I did. Seems like he's got quite a few other fans, too.
I'm more understanding towards Ben, but less forgiving towards Lily. I understand that she was not in a good place, but her actions were a lot harder to write off. Even if Carley HAD been guilty, that would hardly warrant killing her. Same with Ben.
I completely agree with you. Everything you said has been my thoughts since Episode 1 involving him and i thought i was the only one that no… moreticed these things. Even just by watching his expressions and gestures about certain things you can see that he's not bad. He shows genuine remorse for his actions as well. I just wish more people would actually take time to sit and analyse/observe characters, there is usually a lot more to them than what people originally see.
Not just Nick, but characters like Ben, Lily, ect.
I have no real other way to state this, so I'll be blunt. A person with a damaged past comes up to you and almost kills you, abruptly. You don't know them. You don't know why they are the way they are. Even if you did, this does not negate the bullets fired in your direction. They apologize moments later after a series of more life or death struggles, or even just that singular event.
Do you really, and personally care why he has a damaged past at the moment? When reading a good Book or a Biography I'd love to, but if its your life? Really? But I digress. You move past this and he does something reckless again, without knowing his past (You didn't accept the apology.), or with you knowing his past, (You accepted the apology.) does this suddenly negate the new life lost six days later? Does it change how he's a literal broken shell of a man where even his best friend won't vouch for his state of mind other than wanting to protect him? Where he isn't even depended upon and he'd rather have a little girl watch his back instead?
I totally understand liking Nick. I like his story-line and I'm rolling with it. But I refuse to believe someone who has the perspective/empathy to sympathize for Nick is simultaneously obtuse enough to not understand why someone's life story-- be it abuse, traumas, trust issues, the works-- shouldn't matter to you, personally, if they're going to come at the cost of your personal health and steps are not only not being taken to rectify the situation, but its degenerating further.
I care because its a good story and it doesn't effect me. I am essentially a Nick fan at this point especially after episode 2. Being a fan and liking Nick and his story-line doesn't make me suddenly see why Clementine would care, or how any other protagonist swapped into that scenario for that matter. I can see why the other Cabin survivors would; they saw the trauma first hand and simultaneously didn't have a rifle shoved towards them. But the decision comes down to the person, without knowing why.
There are people who don't forgive each other for drinking the last can of soda or forgetting to pick something up or stubbing someone's toe by accident. 90% forgave him for threatening their lives without knowing why. No way.
Is it really, though? Nick panicked and launched into action to protect his friends. His actions were not out of malice or likely even tha… moret conscious. And once you've learned his story, I think it makes perfect sense to care. I know I did. Seems like he's got quite a few other fans, too.
I accepted his apology because I figured if he had the brass to actually admit to his mistakes and apologize he deserved that from me. Sure, he messed up, but no one got hurt and he was genuinely trying to make amends. I might have been bitter but I wasn't going to let that stop me from gaining him as an ally, so I just accepted it in a somewhat reluctant manner. (Choosing dialogue options such as "bad things happen to everyone" instead of stuff like "I understand.")
I was also trying to play my Clem the way I think she would react. Even if she's changed since season 1, I'd still like to believe she's a forgiving and kind person underneath her badass exterior. I gave water to the dying man too, despite him probably having murdered Christa. I'm not going to be a bad person if I can help it.
If it were real life though I'm sure I wouldn't have found it so easy to forgive Nick, but then again I'm a pretty timid and non-confrontational person - so I'd probably have just mumbled "it's ok" and said nothing else on the matter while secretly hating him just a little bit, hahaha.
You're thinking about it to much. Just take a hit from the bong and remember...you're still alive. Gotta roll with the punches, and denying this guys apologies is the same as making enemies, man. Think Machiavellian, it's easy to keep an eye on a friend, not so easy an enemy. So, in a fucked up situation like the zombie apocalypse, we as human beings, lost the luxury of being angry at someone, because the person could end up stabbing you in the back, and not even care because you weren't friends. Just be Machiavelli and you should be fine. But, I do have to say this, Nick, Rebecca and Carlos made the dumbest fucking call ever, and shouldn't be trusted with weapons, let alone other people's lives. Basically, the gist of my speech is, be deceptive and watch them from a friendly standpoint.
If he apologises, they're just words. If Clem accepts, they're just words. IMHO all Nick was doing was letting Clem know that almost shooting her wasn't cool.I wanted my Clem to acknowledge that. I didn't want her to become Lilly-esque with a trust no one and if someone betrays you you never let it go. She still is a little girl, Lee ain't there, she needs people to look after her. Everyone goes the extra mile to say 'oh Nick's always like that' and it was an accident.
I forgave him, not because of Nick, but for Clem's survival.
That is weird that we were in the 9.5%
Knowing how much Lee was hounded over every small mistake that he made or anything that went wrong, … moreI felt in no way inclined to let Nick feel like he's made amends by apologising for preparing to shoot, and almost killing a 9-year-old girl lying on the ground, as if she posed a threat to anyone infected or not.
It's not unreasonable to expect more than an apology before you forgive someone for shooting at you and then locking you in a shed with an open wound and no way of stopping it becoming infected.
If I was to stay with that particular group I wouldn't be able to immediately forgive them and help them forget the way they acted.
Comments
Hee. I mostly forgot about this thread because its been awhile, but your bump/response reminds me. I practically yelled "What the fuck!" when he shot him, but honestly, that was significantly more understandable this time around. And despite not accepting his apology in episode 1, I did back him up and he's still alive in my playthrough. I'm rather surprised that occurred, given my distaste of his previous actions and the Matthew thing not helping.
But this time I did see genuine remorse, and more importantly, Pete really tugged at my heart strings to help the poor guy out, even if the Matthew thing really still feels like he's going to be a terrible detriment. I'm kind of impressed and happy with the result at the moment; its adding a lot of character to Clem/Nick's relationship/story since she's tolerating a likable train-wreck who's ultimately not malicious in the slightest. Its much more satisfying than Ben who's mistakes were almost comic relief at points, such as removing the handle from the door barricading zombies.
Edit: Also I would say it wasn't only feeling bad for Nick and guilt/wanting to satisfy Pete's last wishes that made me want to protect/keep him alive. It was Walter's wording, "like everybody else". Couldn't say that, it would have been quite wrong.
Yep, the forgiveness is almost the hardest thing in the real life. And if you can forgive, then you can feel good.
It's interesting that, if you don't accept Nick's apology, then you never learn about the group's previous experience or what happened to Nick's mom. This makes everyone's actions a lot harder to understand and emphasize with.
I like him because I understand not only his actions, but how he came to be that way. Pete's too hard on him, and then he goes and embarrasses him in front of other people. How would you feel if your parental figure went around telling other people how much you messed up, and not even in a good-hearted way?
True. But at the same time, 'method acting it' as I kind of said before, its difficult to care that what happened to his mother screwed him up. Its good from a writing perspective that he has a reason to be the equivalent of damaged goods to do the thing he did-- otherwise he'd just a liability for no good reason. But its difficult to care about why he's screwed up when you're almost gut shot by him immediately and he excuses himself because you moved/talked/tried to run. As the victim, I have a hard time buying such eloquent empathy extended towards a person who almost murdered you. The sun hadn't even risen yet when he's fishing for his apology. :S
This is true in modern crimes today. Someone is murdered or almost killed by someone who's damaged from growing up or has mental health issues? Sure, they get sympathetic ears and reduced sentences, but the victims are usually not the ones being all that forgiving. And those are extended affairs, not fresh ones. It looks more like a Jury or Judge is going by his actions rather than Clementine(the victim) going by his actions. This is the tunnel/perception that's throwing me here.
Looking forward to his story arc in Ep 3.
Is it really, though? Nick panicked and launched into action to protect his friends. His actions were not out of malice or likely even that conscious. And once you've learned his story, I think it makes perfect sense to care. I know I did. Seems like he's got quite a few other fans, too.
I couldn't agree more. Nick was completely in the wrong, and I straight up didn't trust him after that "little" incident.
I didnt know him long enough to know if he was bad so i accepted.
I completely agree with you. Everything you said has been my thoughts since Episode 1 involving him and i thought i was the only one that noticed these things. Even just by watching his expressions and gestures about certain things you can see that he's not bad. He shows genuine remorse for his actions as well. I just wish more people would actually take time to sit and analyse/observe characters, there is usually a lot more to them than what people originally see.
Not just Nick, but characters like Ben, Lily, ect.
I'm more understanding towards Ben, but less forgiving towards Lily. I understand that she was not in a good place, but her actions were a lot harder to write off. Even if Carley HAD been guilty, that would hardly warrant killing her. Same with Ben.
Do you really, and personally care why he has a damaged past at the moment? When reading a good Book or a Biography I'd love to, but if its your life? Really? But I digress. You move past this and he does something reckless again, without knowing his past (You didn't accept the apology.), or with you knowing his past, (You accepted the apology.) does this suddenly negate the new life lost six days later? Does it change how he's a literal broken shell of a man where even his best friend won't vouch for his state of mind other than wanting to protect him? Where he isn't even depended upon and he'd rather have a little girl watch his back instead?
I totally understand liking Nick. I like his story-line and I'm rolling with it. But I refuse to believe someone who has the perspective/empathy to sympathize for Nick is simultaneously obtuse enough to not understand why someone's life story-- be it abuse, traumas, trust issues, the works-- shouldn't matter to you, personally, if they're going to come at the cost of your personal health and steps are not only not being taken to rectify the situation, but its degenerating further.
I care because its a good story and it doesn't effect me. I am essentially a Nick fan at this point especially after episode 2. Being a fan and liking Nick and his story-line doesn't make me suddenly see why Clementine would care, or how any other protagonist swapped into that scenario for that matter. I can see why the other Cabin survivors would; they saw the trauma first hand and simultaneously didn't have a rifle shoved towards them. But the decision comes down to the person, without knowing why.
There are people who don't forgive each other for drinking the last can of soda or forgetting to pick something up or stubbing someone's toe by accident. 90% forgave him for threatening their lives without knowing why. No way.
I was also trying to play my Clem the way I think she would react. Even if she's changed since season 1, I'd still like to believe she's a forgiving and kind person underneath her badass exterior. I gave water to the dying man too, despite him probably having murdered Christa. I'm not going to be a bad person if I can help it.
If it were real life though I'm sure I wouldn't have found it so easy to forgive Nick, but then again I'm a pretty timid and non-confrontational person - so I'd probably have just mumbled "it's ok" and said nothing else on the matter while secretly hating him just a little bit, hahaha.
I forgave him, not because of Nick, but for Clem's survival.