Do people really think that lack of hubs are a BIG ISSUE for Season Two?
Yeah I'm probably going to get a lot of hate for this, seeing as how this is pretty much the fans' NUMBER 1 request since Season Two started. Before you do take the time to tell me that I'm an idiot for believing I'm justifying Telltale's decision to release so called "short episodes," just hear me out first.
This is something that everyone needs to understand from a writer's perspective.
The length of anything (a Telltale Games episode, or a movie , or a TV show) can't be TOO long for the sake of the consumers getting the most out of their money. If that were the case, we'd be stuck with boring mediums after boring mediums.
There is only one rule in this industry when it comes to how long your movie should be: It should be all the time you need to tell your story. If you feel that you need 90 minutes to tell your story, then it should be 90 minutes long. If you feel that you need 2-3 hours to tell your story, then it should be 2-3 hours long. Since THIS particular game company's specialty is storytelling, and have what you choose to do in the game affects you, and have the consequences affect you BE the gameplay, then it makes sense if they make their storytelling aspect their first priority. It shows that they put in some effort when it comes to writing.
I feel like you guys are complaining about lack of hubs only because you want longer episodes, but you don't really feel like they're the only solution to this "problem." Is A House Divided really broken because it doesn't make you take up too much time to talk to people, thereby breaking the steady pacing it was going at? Has there been a single critic that complained about NO HUBS? They've complained about frame rate stuttering issues
I like hub areas...except when they just feel monotonous and boring when you just want to get through the story. I have no issues with Telltale aiming for 90 minutes per episode, because I'll be honest: I think the story in Season One is the best in any video game (better than The Last Of Us and Bioshock Infinite); however, my only issues with it are the slow moments in the episodes (even though they don't take me away from the story completely). And where are those slow moments? HUBS. Think I'm wrong? Well, here's an example:
As I said in another discussion, I liked Episode 4, though I'd say it's my least favourite of the 5. Around the Crawford chapter is where I felt the story not only slowed down, but it felt quite long for a while....TOO LONG. I got so fucking bored after about 20 minutes of just looking for supplies, backtracking to find that walker with the tape, waiting for Molly to come back; it just felt like the story was put on a complete halt. And so what if this meant we could learn more about Brie or Vernon? Their backstories where already flushed out when you encounter them in the morgue, so why do we need to learn more about these people, especially if one of them is just going to die soon? It's this kind of pacing that just dilutes the replay value for me.
"Character development comes from hubs!"
Yeah, I guess this means Larry, Sarah, Pete, Nick, Luke, Carlos, hell WALTER had no character development because we didn't have any hubs. These are all people that I can think of that you couldn't talk to in hub areas, yet a few are fan favourites. Besides, the season's not even done yet so give it time.
Exactly how do hubs flush out character development? Are you saying if I play S1E2, before I talk to Clementine to push her on the swing, if I don't talk to Kenny, I'm not going to learn a thing about him? I don't see how him telling me that he nearly passed out on the way to the farm tells me that he's a caring man but when it comes down to it he does whatever it takes to save his family. The Meat Locker scene does bring out not only Kenny's character but Lee's, Clementine's and Lilly's and this scene is actually RELEVANT to the whole story.
Guys, there's a difference between back story and character development.
Back story is brought out by exposition of that character your talking to in hubs. It's neat to know about this character's past, but it adds no relevance to the story whatsoever.
Character development comes from a character's appearance, their personality, what they choose to do when the going gets tough, and why they make these choices. Backstories can help if it's relevant to the situation at hand but like I said, if it adds no purpose to the story then save it for a later scene or don't bother with it at all.
This is something that everyone needs to understand from a writer's perspective.
The length of anything (a Telltale Games episode, or a movie , or a TV show) can't be TOO long for the sake of the consumers getting the most out of their money. If that were the case, we'd be stuck with boring mediums after boring mediums.
There is only one rule in this industry when it comes to how long your movie should be: It should be all the time you need to tell your story. If you feel that you need 90 minutes to tell your story, then it should be 90 minutes long. If you feel that you need 2-3 hours to tell your story, then it should be 2-3 hours long. Since THIS particular game company's specialty is storytelling, and have what you choose to do in the game affects you, and have the consequences affect you BE the gameplay, then it makes sense if they make their storytelling aspect their first priority. It shows that they put in some effort when it comes to writing.
I feel like you guys are complaining about lack of hubs only because you want longer episodes, but you don't really feel like they're the only solution to this "problem." Is A House Divided really broken because it doesn't make you take up too much time to talk to people, thereby breaking the steady pacing it was going at? Has there been a single critic that complained about NO HUBS? They've complained about frame rate stuttering issues
I like hub areas...except when they just feel monotonous and boring when you just want to get through the story. I have no issues with Telltale aiming for 90 minutes per episode, because I'll be honest: I think the story in Season One is the best in any video game (better than The Last Of Us and Bioshock Infinite); however, my only issues with it are the slow moments in the episodes (even though they don't take me away from the story completely). And where are those slow moments? HUBS. Think I'm wrong? Well, here's an example:
As I said in another discussion, I liked Episode 4, though I'd say it's my least favourite of the 5. Around the Crawford chapter is where I felt the story not only slowed down, but it felt quite long for a while....TOO LONG. I got so fucking bored after about 20 minutes of just looking for supplies, backtracking to find that walker with the tape, waiting for Molly to come back; it just felt like the story was put on a complete halt. And so what if this meant we could learn more about Brie or Vernon? Their backstories where already flushed out when you encounter them in the morgue, so why do we need to learn more about these people, especially if one of them is just going to die soon? It's this kind of pacing that just dilutes the replay value for me.
"Character development comes from hubs!"
Yeah, I guess this means Larry, Sarah, Pete, Nick, Luke, Carlos, hell WALTER had no character development because we didn't have any hubs. These are all people that I can think of that you couldn't talk to in hub areas, yet a few are fan favourites. Besides, the season's not even done yet so give it time.
Exactly how do hubs flush out character development? Are you saying if I play S1E2, before I talk to Clementine to push her on the swing, if I don't talk to Kenny, I'm not going to learn a thing about him? I don't see how him telling me that he nearly passed out on the way to the farm tells me that he's a caring man but when it comes down to it he does whatever it takes to save his family. The Meat Locker scene does bring out not only Kenny's character but Lee's, Clementine's and Lilly's and this scene is actually RELEVANT to the whole story.
Guys, there's a difference between back story and character development.
Back story is brought out by exposition of that character your talking to in hubs. It's neat to know about this character's past, but it adds no relevance to the story whatsoever.
Character development comes from a character's appearance, their personality, what they choose to do when the going gets tough, and why they make these choices. Backstories can help if it's relevant to the situation at hand but like I said, if it adds no purpose to the story then save it for a later scene or don't bother with it at all.
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Like I think the reason why alot of players don't really care for Sarah is because we honestly never got a chance to just sit down and talk to her I mean she helped us briefly in Episode 1 then in episode 2 you talked to her briefly in the beginning of that episode and that was it then you can't talk to her for the rest of the episode not even if you teach her to shoot a gun or take the blame for the photo....
Back in Season 2, every time something bad happens I would run over to check in on Clementine to make sure she was okay and understood what was going on. I don't really have the same concern for Sarah now, but part of it is that the game never gave me the opportunity to express any concern towards her. The whole Christmas tree topper thing helped a little but that still wasn't really substantial enough for me to care about her well-being.
In season 1, the hubs helped me to feel more engaged and connected with game and the characters, and I never had the feeling that in s1 they were monotonous or boring, I felt like I personally communicated with them because I was the one who was controlling controlling Lee, not the game. In my opinion, TTG implemented the hubs at the right moments, used them correctly, and they had the appropriate length (I liked the slow moments :D). But I wouldn't mind not having hubs, I would enjoy the game nonetheless.
I think we also have to bear in mind (for the people who think that there aren't enough hubs in s2), that in Episode 1 Season 2, there wasn't really a good opportunity to present a hub because Clementine was alone most of the time. Episode 2 was the first episode in where Clem got in a group again, and they presented us with a hub. There are still 3 more episodes to go, and there's no telling in what TTG is going to do, I believe we're certainly going to see more hubs.
I believe they add immersion because they allow you more control of your character at your own pace, and this simple act is inherently more immersive than simple sitting along for the ride, occasionally doing a QTE, and clicking dialogue choices when they pop up. Also, it allows you to get a feel for the environment in which your character is currently in. I enjoyed being able to walk around the motor-inn, it felt very cozy. I expected a similar moment to be presented in the ski-lodge, but was disappointed when they utterly neglected this opportunity.
I'll give you that some areas felt tedious to play through in season 1, but that can easily be eliminated by the newly included psuedo-sprint functionality, and better level design. What I DON'T like to see is them axing hub areas entirely. They need to be added, modified if necessary, but they must be present in some capacity. It is crucial for the pacing of the game, and a hell of a lot of players want them back in.
Anyway the lack of hubs do and don't bother me. For one part they do since I do like to remember I'm playing an adventure game and want to have some puzzle-solving every now and again while on the other side I do like the story to carry on without too much of a drag. I don't really mind what direction really. Lack of hubs isn't as bad a thing as people say it is but I have noticed that Season Two has lower scores than Season One (even with the brilliant A House Divided only just hitting the high review score average) with some users on here mainly thinking it came from the lack of character interactions with the new characters and the lack of hubs, yada, yada, yada you know that part. but the reason people loved the first Season is also because it innovated the Adventure game genre. These guys before (Telltale) only made adventure games and to see them evolve into doing something like this was incredible and frightening for long-time Telltale fans such as myself. But I've loved the Hub worlds because they even let me remember the days of playing as Sam walking around a street trying to solve puzzles. And Telltale have seemed to have embraced the dramatic side completely and want to rid away of the adventure genre portions completely. Which on this side, I do like because it has been very innovative for them to take this direction. But Telltale traditionalists such as myself are going to miss the days of walking around and talking to people. Simply because I always saw that in their games.
Anyway, that's the end of my (possibly nonsensical) rant. I do agree that the direction of The Walking Dead now going without hubs isn't a big a deal as people are making it out to be, but some people will just naturally miss them for what they were.
Minor Disappointment? Yes.
On the character development point i agree that it's not absolutely necessary to make good characters, but just found the being able to talk to characters optionally and ask their opinions helped to make them feel more "real" to me. With Season 2 my favourite Nick moment was actually choosing to talk to him outside the Cabin after he shot that guy when he does the Carlos impression (I believe that's optional although i haven't replayed the episode yet). You are right that big moments define the characters, but little touches shouldn't be forgotten.
Hubs in general also help to involve me in the world and it's characters, since i'm the one actively looking for things and making discoveries as opposed to having exposition thrown at me.
From telltale's side they seem to have taken the most praised "interactive TV-like" aspects of season 1 (The cinematic style and choices) and placed more emphasis on that at the expense of some of the more "game-like" aspects (Hubs and Puzzles). Which is a pretty sensible development to be fair. The result is this season is more concise, there is never a dull moment or wasted second, but some elements i liked have been lost along the way.
Ultimately though it's all personal preference of minor points in a game that's great either way.
i don't think that one last scene (hub, even) back at the cabin while they were leaving or on the road that took them five days to travel would have been too pace breaking. Or the wasted ski-lodge. I also like to have a feel of my environment outside of the cutscenes.
> "I like hub areas...except when they just feel monotonous and boring when you just want to get through the story. "
I commented the other day as I was replaying *Around Every Corner* after the hundredth time, that I, too feel that. Thing is, they are optional. You can very well avoid them unless you are an absolute completitionist. You still have the backtracking through Crawford to get to story points, but if S2 is an improvement over S1, they would then make those areas feel more natural while at the same time offering optional conversations and interactions.
> " "Character development comes from hubs!""
No, but it is, for the reasons many poster above me have said, a very useful tool to provide character development.
> "Yeah, I guess this means Larry, Sarah, Pete, Nick, Luke, Carlos, hell WALTER had no character development because we didn't have any hubs. "
No, but they have not had as much, just the bare minimum not to call them a piece of the scenery. In the case of Nick and Walter, well, I still say that they are about the most fleshed out of the group. Oh, and the stuff with Pete, too. No, they did not have hubs, but they were focused on, given time in episodes where time is few. Hubs give other characters the spotlight, it evens it out and helps with the feeling these are real people, or at least better written characters that have something to say other than what the plot needs them to.
> "Besides, the season's not even done yet so give it time."
I agree. I'm basing my opinions on what we have so far with the hope that they will consider the feedback given. And they have considered it, that's a victory in of itself. It is their choice to implement it or not based on what they think is best for the season, and I guess I'll be here to praise it or complain about it.
Big moments define our characters, but so do the little ones; the ones that some deem a waste of time. Again, not that it matters, I feel so powerless right now. We shall see what's what soon enough, next episode.
A 'good' hub would be something like the food distribution scene in Season 1 Episode 2. You get a chance to check in with people, see what they're thinking and learn more about them. You're given agency; you can immediately hand out the food without bothering to chat with anyone, or you can chat with everyone before making your decision, or anywhere in-between. The decision itself also gave me a strong sense of agency. By the end of that hub, I was reinvested in the group and its members after the break from Episode 1. I felt I had been given a chance to catch up at my own pace rather than being hooked onto the railroad tracks of the plotline and shoved along the way. That is what a hub should be about.
And yes, it does involve me more with the characters to chat with them at my own speed. At the end of Season 2 Episode 1, I honestly was utterly apathetic as to whether Pete or Nick lived. I didn't feel like I knew either of them well enough to care that much. A work of fiction shouldn't be any longer or shorter than it needs to be, I agree. Thing is, an episode actually does need to spend that extra time making me give a flying crap about the characters. If it excises that time in favor of pure plot, the episode has failed in its aims and therefore qualifies as too short.
Now on another topic of Hubs, is how does one describe a Hub. In a sense I would say S2 has a hub. A big one? No, but one could argue that the area around Mathew's little cottage was a hub as it allowed you to explore, had a minor easy to solve puzzle, and allowed you to relate to characters and learn some of their back stories. As well as at the camp in S2E1, surely not a big hub, but it did have the feeling of a small one. You could do things with the dog, once again you had a minor puzzle/goal, but still could explore, though it lacked much character development though. That brings the question of in order to be a hub does it require Character development/stories, or just a place to explore?
I agree that even without hubs so far S2 has been great with amazing characters. Don't know how you can call them one sided as it clearly shows that there is complexity to them in the scenes they have, with the exception of a few minor characters, but still.
The hubs allowed us to take a breather and talk to every character as we saw fit. We learned personal histories, formed connections, and received individual input on other group members and recent events. It was quantity and quality.
In contrast, season 2 limits that freedom, only letting us speak with on-screen characters at select points and for shorter periods of time.