It's not about toughness being punishment-worthy. If Troy, like a number of people here, views Clem as a "badass" that would mean she's not just a little girl in his eyes but a viable threat and thus she'll get treated accordingly if she's suspected of compromising the community. Much as I'd like to take concerns about how badly he could've hurt Clem seriously, we should remember this is the same game where Luke let her climb up a latter because she'd supposedly have an "easier time getting up there" than his male adult body could handle. I don't expect them to treat the hit with the same gravity you're giving it (much like Carver getting shot with a rifle).
I'm also fairly certain most of the indignant people would be singing a different tune if they were stuck with a boss like Carver. But to each his/her own.
I personally have a feeling Troy might be bitter about Johnny and is using Clem to get back at Kenny. In which case, the hatred would be duly deserved.
Clem being a badass does nothing to justify Troy's actions, unless you think being tough is a punishment-worthy trait. Troy is a guard dog f… moreor a dictator who kidnaps and essentially enslaves unwilling people. Clementine is being held hostage, and she has every right to do what it takes to escape. Troy is fighting for an unjustifiable cause. Understanding "why" he hit Clem doesn't change that.
Restrained? You mean, like Winston did? You know, the guy who almost got his thumb ripped off by this "little girl" we're talking about? Or like the stranger, whose fatal mistake proved to be turning his back on Clem? Plus, from the looks of it, it seemed like she was running to possibly help someone/grab something. Hitting someone who does this is a reflex.
Fair enough, though again, just from the way the scene is presented, and there's really no other way to look at it, Clem could have been res… moretrained. Maybe it's an early version of a scene and Clem is actually holding a goddamn chainsaw in the real scene, lol. :P We'll have to wait and see.
Oh, I'm sure it's largely demographics. But that's kind of the problem right there. It implies that it's not the shaping of the product, it's just our messed up society. Although, there also exist female Nate fans who defend him all the time and... I just don't know. I really don't... lol.
Still, props to you for holding the same view on Troy that you do on Bonnie and Tavia. It's good to see a fair view. :)
People just don't seem to get that I understand this stuff. I understand that Troy probably sees Clementine as a threat to the community (she definitely is), and I understand why that would make him hit her. I just don't get why people think that understanding why he does it makes his actions justifiable. Clem trying to escape a camp whose leader kidnapped her and murdered/tortured her friends IS morally justifiable. Using force to keep her contained there is not.
It's not about toughness being punishment-worthy. If Troy, like a number of people here, views Clem as a "badass" that would mean she's not … morejust a little girl in his eyes but a viable threat and thus she'll get treated accordingly if she's suspected of compromising the community. Much as I'd like to take concerns about how badly he could've hurt Clem seriously, we should remember this is the same game where Luke let her climb up a latter because she'd supposedly have an "easier time getting up there" than his male adult body could handle. I don't expect them to treat the hit with the same gravity you're giving it (much like Carver getting shot with a rifle).
I'm also fairly certain most of the indignant people would be singing a different tune if they were stuck with a boss like Carver. But to each his/her own.
I personally have a feeling Troy might be bitter about Johnny and is using Clem to get back at Kenny. In which case, the hatred would be duly deserved.
OMG people seriously? Come on we all love Clem but she's not the only kid who got beat down. This is a ZA and just like Walter told her '' T… morehis world is more political than before,'' Which means nobody cares if your a child or not. Game Of Thrones has children getting beat down and killed constantly on that show, so how is Clem getting beat down any different?
Plus the only reason Clem has a sassy attitude is because of Christa. Whatever Christa taught Clem during the 16 months influences her behavior. Christa made a tough Clem. And after Omid's death that's when Christa expected Clem to become more tough and survive.
If you recognize that Clem is a threat then why would you expect them to just let her go on the grounds of it not being morally justified? If you're part of the contingent that keeps the community safe and you're living in a world where people will kill you for food, is it really smart to let people go to bring more trouble to your doorstep? This dilemma keeps coming up in the games for a reason (S1Ep2, Shel and Russell 400 Days, S2Ep1). It's a valid concern in the zombie apocalypse.
All some of us are saying is that we can't judge based on the insights we have that Troy may not. And there may be things that he knows that we don't, that might drastically change our perception of things.
People just don't seem to get that I understand this stuff. I understand that Troy probably sees Clementine as a threat to the community (sh… moree definitely is), and I understand why that would make him hit her. I just don't get why people think that understanding why he does it makes his actions justifiable. Clem trying to escape a camp whose leader kidnapped her and murdered/tortured her friends IS morally justifiable. Using force to keep her contained there is not.
Leaving the fact aside that I never implied that hitting children is good, who ever said I wanted to be a parent in the first place? I can't stand children and thus realize I should not have one. Fuck me, right?
This is just human nature. If you see someone you care about get hurt you get angry and when you get angry you stop thinking rationally. Troy might prove to us that he is a decent person even after the shit we've seen him do but he might turn even worse than we expected so please - can we all just stop jumping to conclusions?
In a way... I like that Clem got hit because that just makes her more bad ass but at the same time I want to kill Troy for doing so. If that hit wasn't placed where it was, which is very easy to mistakenly miss, she could have gotten a concussion.
I think everyone has his own opinion. If some people are angry at Troy so let them. I think about killing him too. Maybe Troy will do something good to show that he is not an complete bastard. Let's see...
You'll notice that when Winston stopped "restraining" her with the failed bear hug and pinned her down after that, Clem was pretty defenseless. She was holding him off, but he was clearly overpowering her. It was only because a walker showed up that she got out of that.
So yes, "like Winston did", only not that first example.
I don't buy that this is reflex. It looks calculated to me. Troy sees her coming, and drives the gun into her face. His body language doesn't read like that of shock or surprise which would cause such a reflex. But then, that's just my interpretation. Neither of us can say for sure what's going on in that scene, but we're both going to hold to our views nevertheless, and my view is that Troy is a douchebag and for all we know, probably took out some anger on her, as we see he looks pretty pissed off at one point when he's dragging her by the arm to Kenny and shoving her at him. Could her not just lead her there at gun point and tell her to go to her people? Based on pure imagery, the guy is an asshole and a half. Can that sentiment change? Maybe, but there'd have to be a pretty big change.
My argument has never been that Clementine is a defenseless little girl, but zombie apocalypse or not, excessive force, and against children by an adult, no less, is an act of an asshole. I'm not one of the folks calling for the dude's death for this, but I scoff at the implicit defending as well. Again, maybe that'll change, but it'll take a lot to convince me that this dude isn't dirt.
Restrained? You mean, like Winston did? You know, the guy who almost got his thumb ripped off by this "little girl" we're talking about? Or … morelike the stranger, whose fatal mistake proved to be turning his back on Clem? Plus, from the looks of it, it seemed like she was running to possibly help someone/grab something. Hitting someone who does this is a reflex.
I think shaun putting clementine getting hit by troy intentional. He'd knew we would all react and that, that shit would get us gossiping an… mored talking.
Like seriously, who the fuck cares if we have are torches and pitch forks ready, we will see his "true good" side if he had one or w/e. This is actually good, since we have less shitty threads about poor assumptions or just useless ones.
The forum isn't hypocritical, the forum is just idiotic.
Side note: also please notice that the people who got their panty's all wet are the noobs rather than the people who've been here for awhile, instead of targeting the forum as a whole - target the noobs.
I think shaun putting clementine getting hit by troy intentional. He'd knew we would all react and that, that shit would get us gossiping an… mored talking.
Like seriously, who the fuck cares if we have are torches and pitch forks ready, we will see his "true good" side if he had one or w/e. This is actually good, since we have less shitty threads about poor assumptions or just useless ones.
The forum isn't hypocritical, the forum is just idiotic.
Side note: also please notice that the people who got their panty's all wet are the noobs rather than the people who've been here for awhile, instead of targeting the forum as a whole - target the noobs.
Don't get how that's hypocrecy. People like a character and they don't like seeing it get hurt. And, no matter how badass Clem is, she's still a kid (or pre-teen, whatever). Of course Clem can take the beating like a boss, but we don't need to be happy about this. As for her personality, I like both badass and sassy Clem, but I'll grant you that the sassiness does make her seem mean at times. Luckily, you can choose most, if not all, sassy dialogues, so there's nothing to complain about that imo.
As for Troy, the one thing we see him do is hit a little girl, badass as she may be. Now, I don't like making a judgement based only on first impressions, but, man, that's one shitty first impression.
Okay, then. Tell me something that Troy might know that justifies him smashing an 11-year-old's face in instead of blocking her. Tell me any theory you have that makes Troy's decision to help kidnap, terrorize, and enslave Sarah/Clem/Sarita/etc the right thing to do, and I'll listen. Neither Roman nor Russell's guy were portrayed as anywhere near sympathetic to the audience, so I'm not sure why their inclusion changes anything.
Honestly, I just don't see Telltale doing it. Like it or not, The Walking Dead exists in a wider cultural context, and as brutal as it can be, it STILL 100% abides by what society has deemed as potentially justifiable or not. Clem/Lee/Rick/Kenny/Michonne/etc may all engage in some morally grey behavior, but they still toe that line. You're not going to see any of the non-villain characters kidnap and terrorize innocents, brutally attack a little girl, or run a slave camp, because Telltale and Kirkman are smart enough to know that the audience would immediately lose sympathy for them. If there was any chance that they planned for Troy to be sympathetic or redeemable, there is no way on Earth that they would have included a scene of him attacking a child.
If you recognize that Clem is a threat then why would you expect them to just let her go on the grounds of it not being morally justified? I… moref you're part of the contingent that keeps the community safe and you're living in a world where people will kill you for food, is it really smart to let people go to bring more trouble to your doorstep? This dilemma keeps coming up in the games for a reason (S1Ep2, Shel and Russell 400 Days, S2Ep1). It's a valid concern in the zombie apocalypse.
All some of us are saying is that we can't judge based on the insights we have that Troy may not. And there may be things that he knows that we don't, that might drastically change our perception of things.
Knowing that if he doesn't obey orders he or someone he cares about might end up with a bullet in their head would be the most obvious thing. I don't even know why that even needs to be said. And pardon me if I'm skeptical about anyone who claims they would absolutely positively never do something reprehensible if they were stuck in such circumstances. That's an idea that's more naive than noble. Also, I get the impression from Carver's words that there are people in the community who have grievances with the cabin group that might also be coloring Troy's perceptions of Clem (deeming her a certain character type by association).
I'm not asking for anyone to like the guy but I don't care for people treating the issue as if it's that black and white. Perhaps it would be wonderful if all children were only capable of being inquisitive angels but there are many who don't have the benefit of being that innocent. Like it or not, Clem is one such child (doubly so depending on how people role-play her).
Okay, then. Tell me something that Troy might know that justifies him smashing an 11-year-old's face in instead of blocking her. Tell me any… more theory you have that makes Troy's decision to help kidnap, terrorize, and enslave Sarah/Clem/Sarita/etc the right thing to do, and I'll listen. Neither Roman nor Russell's guy were portrayed as anywhere near sympathetic to the audience, so I'm not sure why their inclusion changes anything.
Honestly, I just don't see Telltale doing it. Like it or not, The Walking Dead exists in a wider cultural context, and as brutal as it can be, it STILL 100% abides by what society has deemed as potentially justifiable or not. Clem/Lee/Rick/Kenny/Michonne/etc may all engage in some morally grey behavior, but they still toe that line. You're not going to see any of the non-villain characters kidnap and terrorize innocents, brutally attack a little girl, or run a slave camp, because Telltale and Kirkman are smart eno… [view original content]
I'm not saying it's impossible to ever redeem Troy- just incredibly unlikely. Even Lilly, who we knew was a decent person, and someone who only wanted to protect the group, was reviled after the Carley situation. She crossed a line that the audience wouldn't tolerate, and I think Troy has as well. Regardless of the world these characters live in, the audience still sees them through their own moral perspective, and very, VERY few people have any tolerance whatsoever for violence against children. Troy could work weekends at the soup kitchen and adopt abandoned puppies, and I still don't think the audience would ever sympathize with someone who battered a child, and Telltale knows that.
I don't think it was a mistake that TT put in one of the few actions that they KNEW would quickly make Troy one of the most hated characters in the game. It's a very, very effective way of making the audience hate a villain that isn't destined to have much longevity. Bonnie will more than likely be the "redeemed" bad guy and Carver is clearly the main obstacle of the season, so they can't have too much direct conflict with him this early in the season. It makes sense to have a St. John-ish type sub-villain to focus on in the meantime, and Troy is perfect for that.
Ultimately, we'll have our answers tomorrow, thankfully, so hopefully the debates over Troy can end then. I know I look forward to it.
Knowing that if he doesn't obey orders he or someone he cares about might end up with a bullet in their head would be the most obvious thing… more. I don't even know why that even needs to be said. And pardon me if I'm skeptical about anyone who claims they would absolutely positively never do something reprehensible if they were stuck in such circumstances. That's an idea that's more naive than noble. Also, I get the impression from Carver's words that there are people in the community who have grievances with the cabin group that might also be coloring Troy's perceptions of Clem (deeming her a certain character type by association).
I'm not asking for anyone to like the guy but I don't care for people treating the issue as if it's that black and white. Perhaps it would be wonderful if all children were only capable of being inquisitive angels but there are many who don't have the benefit of being that innocent. Like it or not, Clem is one such child (doubly so depending on how people role-play her).
I think shaun putting clementine getting hit by troy intentional. He'd knew we would all react and that, that shit would get us gossiping an… mored talking.
Like seriously, who the fuck cares if we have are torches and pitch forks ready, we will see his "true good" side if he had one or w/e. This is actually good, since we have less shitty threads about poor assumptions or just useless ones.
The forum isn't hypocritical, the forum is just idiotic.
Side note: also please notice that the people who got their panty's all wet are the noobs rather than the people who've been here for awhile, instead of targeting the forum as a whole - target the noobs.
Don't get how that's hypocrecy. People like a character and they don't like seeing it get hurt. And, no matter how badass Clem is, she's sti… morell a kid (or pre-teen, whatever). Of course Clem can take the beating like a boss, but we don't need to be happy about this. As for her personality, I like both badass and sassy Clem, but I'll grant you that the sassiness does make her seem mean at times. Luckily, you can choose most, if not all, sassy dialogues, so there's nothing to complain about that imo.
As for Troy, the one thing we see him do is hit a little girl, badass as she may be. Now, I don't like making a judgement based only on first impressions, but, man, that's one shitty first impression.
Yeah, I wouldn't put any bets on Troy being redeemed either. I was just arguing for a wait and see approach. Though you make good points on Telltale's possible angle on this. Tomorrow can't come soon enough.
I'm not saying it's impossible to ever redeem Troy- just incredibly unlikely. Even Lilly, who we knew was a decent person, and someone who o… morenly wanted to protect the group, was reviled after the Carley situation. She crossed a line that the audience wouldn't tolerate, and I think Troy has as well. Regardless of the world these characters live in, the audience still sees them through their own moral perspective, and very, VERY few people have any tolerance whatsoever for violence against children. Troy could work weekends at the soup kitchen and adopt abandoned puppies, and I still don't think the audience would ever sympathize with someone who battered a child, and Telltale knows that.
I don't think it was a mistake that TT put in one of the few actions that they KNEW would quickly make Troy one of the most hated characters in the game. It's a very, very effective way of making the audience hate a villain that isn't destined to have muc… [view original content]
Thank you, and I know, it feels like this wait has lasted forever. I've spent far too much time speculating over this episode, so the idea of getting actual answers sounds pretty exciting right now.
Yeah, I wouldn't put any bets on Troy being redeemed either. I was just arguing for a wait and see approach. Though you make good points on Telltale's possible angle on this. Tomorrow can't come soon enough.
Variety is different than hypocrisy, My friend. Variety is the key element of creativity. I'm open to all kind of opinions even those that i totally 100% disagree with.
Dude, you joined 4 months ago, 10 days after me. How the hell are you not a noob? I always thought the real veterans were the ones who started playing TTG with Monkey Island, or at least Back to the Future. And I get all the whining about everything is annoying, but chill the fuck out. There's idiots here because every forum has idiots.
You could at least try to get the Troy-hate. All we know about him are bad things. Do you really blame people for not liking him? Honestly, I want to wait to see the full picture, but I'm not crazy about the guy either.
I think shaun putting clementine getting hit by troy intentional. He'd knew we would all react and that, that shit would get us gossiping an… mored talking.
Like seriously, who the fuck cares if we have are torches and pitch forks ready, we will see his "true good" side if he had one or w/e. This is actually good, since we have less shitty threads about poor assumptions or just useless ones.
The forum isn't hypocritical, the forum is just idiotic.
Side note: also please notice that the people who got their panty's all wet are the noobs rather than the people who've been here for awhile, instead of targeting the forum as a whole - target the noobs.
What a sad troll attempting to start a useless argument.
I'm going to assume you have no idea what the definition of grammar is, do you? rather you just use that term lightly.. Thanks for the good laugh lol.
Comments
I'm also fairly certain most of the indignant people would be singing a different tune if they were stuck with a boss like Carver. But to each his/her own.
I personally have a feeling Troy might be bitter about Johnny and is using Clem to get back at Kenny. In which case, the hatred would be duly deserved.
All some of us are saying is that we can't judge based on the insights we have that Troy may not. And there may be things that he knows that we don't, that might drastically change our perception of things.
it might leave a scar so she can look ultra bad ass. though he could have broken her cheek bone [which he probably did] or damaged her teeth.
im sorry but what he did CROSSED THE LINE! big time.
he wasn't in immediate danger to do that.
So yes, "like Winston did", only not that first example.
I don't buy that this is reflex. It looks calculated to me. Troy sees her coming, and drives the gun into her face. His body language doesn't read like that of shock or surprise which would cause such a reflex. But then, that's just my interpretation. Neither of us can say for sure what's going on in that scene, but we're both going to hold to our views nevertheless, and my view is that Troy is a douchebag and for all we know, probably took out some anger on her, as we see he looks pretty pissed off at one point when he's dragging her by the arm to Kenny and shoving her at him. Could her not just lead her there at gun point and tell her to go to her people? Based on pure imagery, the guy is an asshole and a half. Can that sentiment change? Maybe, but there'd have to be a pretty big change.
My argument has never been that Clementine is a defenseless little girl, but zombie apocalypse or not, excessive force, and against children by an adult, no less, is an act of an asshole. I'm not one of the folks calling for the dude's death for this, but I scoff at the implicit defending as well. Again, maybe that'll change, but it'll take a lot to convince me that this dude isn't dirt.
As for Troy, the one thing we see him do is hit a little girl, badass as she may be. Now, I don't like making a judgement based only on first impressions, but, man, that's one shitty first impression.
Honestly, I just don't see Telltale doing it. Like it or not, The Walking Dead exists in a wider cultural context, and as brutal as it can be, it STILL 100% abides by what society has deemed as potentially justifiable or not. Clem/Lee/Rick/Kenny/Michonne/etc may all engage in some morally grey behavior, but they still toe that line. You're not going to see any of the non-villain characters kidnap and terrorize innocents, brutally attack a little girl, or run a slave camp, because Telltale and Kirkman are smart enough to know that the audience would immediately lose sympathy for them. If there was any chance that they planned for Troy to be sympathetic or redeemable, there is no way on Earth that they would have included a scene of him attacking a child.
I'm not asking for anyone to like the guy but I don't care for people treating the issue as if it's that black and white. Perhaps it would be wonderful if all children were only capable of being inquisitive angels but there are many who don't have the benefit of being that innocent. Like it or not, Clem is one such child (doubly so depending on how people role-play her).
I don't think it was a mistake that TT put in one of the few actions that they KNEW would quickly make Troy one of the most hated characters in the game. It's a very, very effective way of making the audience hate a villain that isn't destined to have much longevity. Bonnie will more than likely be the "redeemed" bad guy and Carver is clearly the main obstacle of the season, so they can't have too much direct conflict with him this early in the season. It makes sense to have a St. John-ish type sub-villain to focus on in the meantime, and Troy is perfect for that.
Ultimately, we'll have our answers tomorrow, thankfully, so hopefully the debates over Troy can end then. I know I look forward to it.
annoying noobs though /.\
You could at least try to get the Troy-hate. All we know about him are bad things. Do you really blame people for not liking him? Honestly, I want to wait to see the full picture, but I'm not crazy about the guy either.
I'm going to assume you have no idea what the definition of grammar is, do you? rather you just use that term lightly.. Thanks for the good laugh lol.
your point?
BOAT