In Harm's Way: Complaints of the Masses (minor spoilers)
I posted this as a reply elsewhere, but it really was sort of off-topic. I realized that, really, this post is its own thing.
I usually just read this forum and don't respond, but I was sort of surprised at some of the criticism leveled against this episode (and less surprised at some of the other criticism).
- 400 Days Characters: I enjoyed 400 Days for what it was. If they find a way to work those characters back into Clem's story more, I would like that. If they don't, then 400 Days was like a "special issue" comic book where I got to look through the eyes of some other characters for an hour or so. I don't mind that. In my 400 Days play-through, almost nobody went with Tavia, and so there's the possibility that I might get more cameos of them out in the wilderness in upcoming episodes. Cool. If not, I'm still going to enjoy the story (a story which I've never NOT enjoyed thus far).
- Carver: I think folks expected this guy to be the sort of long-term villain that they've seen in the Governor/Negan. I never really expected that. Some folks felt that Carver was underdeveloped. I think that Carver had a reasonable amount of development for his life-span within this story. Because we're playing through the POV of Clem, we're not going to get the same sort of development that we might get in the comic or TV show for an antagonist; the development of those "long-term" villains in those other mediums relied on switching to those villains' point-of-views. Different medium. I liked Carver; he has acted as a catalyst this season, and whatever the story is driving towards in its finale will no doubt be a result of Carver's affect on these characters. Cool.
- HUBs: This is one of those complaints that I can relate to, moreso than the others. I dig adventure games. I liked the light puzzle aspects that we had more of in Season One. I hope that we have more opportunities for "HUB" situations in the future, but I don't see a lack of those situations for being the herald of the series' failure. There's a more focused view on the arc of the narrative right now. That's obviously the approach that they've taken. It's different, but I'm still loving every minute of the game, just as I did back in Season One.
- New Characters: A lot of folks are finding it harder to connect to the new characters. For me, my favorite TWD characters have been Lee, Clem, Kenny, Carley, Lilly, Mollie, Pete, Luke and Bonnie. Those are the ones that I felt most connected to, and some of those characters are from this season. Some of them managed to make a big impact on me with just one episode. It's The Walking Dead: characters are going to disappear, or die, and we're going to meet new characters that are awesome. I like that! And I also think that the addition of Mike and Jane this episode was good. Both of those characters are interesting to me. I think a lot of folks miss Lee a lot, and I dig that. I miss him too. And I remember it (and Clem remembers it) every moment that I'm playing Season Two. When I chose to let Clem indulge in her dark side towards the end of this episode, I imagined Lee watching her, scared for what she might become. When she found herself surrounded at the end, and proved just how capable she is at surviving and helping others, I imagined Lee's approval. I like to imagine him as a constant ghost for Clem, now, and that is something truly unique to this game and this story; you are reminded of Lee just often enough that he's almost there with you. Different, but cool.
- Gameplay: Well, this is really just a preference opinion on the type of game that The Walking Dead is. It used to have a little more adventure (exploration, puzzles) in it, to be certain, but the overall style of game hasn't changed much. And it's not its adventure elements that impressed me, because that was never the focus. The focus was this story that you help to craft; sure, some of the big decisions you make might lead you down similar paths no matter what (because those are the limitations of playing a game, as opposed to writing your own story where anything can happen). But as an episodic, TV-like approach to Game Design, it's truly an incredible experience. And that's what it's meant to be.
- Plot Holes: I find myself on the other side of this situation with many different titles. A lot of folks were bothered by the lack of answers in LOST's final season (or not happy with the answers they got, because they didn't match up with what they expected to happen). Not me. I was too interested in the characters and their development. It's the same here (to a lesser degree). I don't know what happened to Lilly or if I will ever see her again, and neither does Clem. That's with her. I don't know who Alvin murdered and what the story was there, and neither does Clem. She carries that with her. It's realistic.
Overall, I think that critics and detractors oftentimes tend to be more vocal than supporters, when it comes to storytelling mediums. That's okay. Everybody looks for different things when they approach a story. I just felt disconnected from the complaints about this episode. It falls in the top three of my favorite episodes so far, of either season (along with S1Ep2 and S1Ep5). I'll go back to silently reading, now, most likely. I just felt this episode could use another voice of support, because I loved it.
I usually just read this forum and don't respond, but I was sort of surprised at some of the criticism leveled against this episode (and less surprised at some of the other criticism).
- 400 Days Characters: I enjoyed 400 Days for what it was. If they find a way to work those characters back into Clem's story more, I would like that. If they don't, then 400 Days was like a "special issue" comic book where I got to look through the eyes of some other characters for an hour or so. I don't mind that. In my 400 Days play-through, almost nobody went with Tavia, and so there's the possibility that I might get more cameos of them out in the wilderness in upcoming episodes. Cool. If not, I'm still going to enjoy the story (a story which I've never NOT enjoyed thus far).
- Carver: I think folks expected this guy to be the sort of long-term villain that they've seen in the Governor/Negan. I never really expected that. Some folks felt that Carver was underdeveloped. I think that Carver had a reasonable amount of development for his life-span within this story. Because we're playing through the POV of Clem, we're not going to get the same sort of development that we might get in the comic or TV show for an antagonist; the development of those "long-term" villains in those other mediums relied on switching to those villains' point-of-views. Different medium. I liked Carver; he has acted as a catalyst this season, and whatever the story is driving towards in its finale will no doubt be a result of Carver's affect on these characters. Cool.
- HUBs: This is one of those complaints that I can relate to, moreso than the others. I dig adventure games. I liked the light puzzle aspects that we had more of in Season One. I hope that we have more opportunities for "HUB" situations in the future, but I don't see a lack of those situations for being the herald of the series' failure. There's a more focused view on the arc of the narrative right now. That's obviously the approach that they've taken. It's different, but I'm still loving every minute of the game, just as I did back in Season One.
- New Characters: A lot of folks are finding it harder to connect to the new characters. For me, my favorite TWD characters have been Lee, Clem, Kenny, Carley, Lilly, Mollie, Pete, Luke and Bonnie. Those are the ones that I felt most connected to, and some of those characters are from this season. Some of them managed to make a big impact on me with just one episode. It's The Walking Dead: characters are going to disappear, or die, and we're going to meet new characters that are awesome. I like that! And I also think that the addition of Mike and Jane this episode was good. Both of those characters are interesting to me. I think a lot of folks miss Lee a lot, and I dig that. I miss him too. And I remember it (and Clem remembers it) every moment that I'm playing Season Two. When I chose to let Clem indulge in her dark side towards the end of this episode, I imagined Lee watching her, scared for what she might become. When she found herself surrounded at the end, and proved just how capable she is at surviving and helping others, I imagined Lee's approval. I like to imagine him as a constant ghost for Clem, now, and that is something truly unique to this game and this story; you are reminded of Lee just often enough that he's almost there with you. Different, but cool.
- Gameplay: Well, this is really just a preference opinion on the type of game that The Walking Dead is. It used to have a little more adventure (exploration, puzzles) in it, to be certain, but the overall style of game hasn't changed much. And it's not its adventure elements that impressed me, because that was never the focus. The focus was this story that you help to craft; sure, some of the big decisions you make might lead you down similar paths no matter what (because those are the limitations of playing a game, as opposed to writing your own story where anything can happen). But as an episodic, TV-like approach to Game Design, it's truly an incredible experience. And that's what it's meant to be.
- Plot Holes: I find myself on the other side of this situation with many different titles. A lot of folks were bothered by the lack of answers in LOST's final season (or not happy with the answers they got, because they didn't match up with what they expected to happen). Not me. I was too interested in the characters and their development. It's the same here (to a lesser degree). I don't know what happened to Lilly or if I will ever see her again, and neither does Clem. That's with her. I don't know who Alvin murdered and what the story was there, and neither does Clem. She carries that with her. It's realistic.
Overall, I think that critics and detractors oftentimes tend to be more vocal than supporters, when it comes to storytelling mediums. That's okay. Everybody looks for different things when they approach a story. I just felt disconnected from the complaints about this episode. It falls in the top three of my favorite episodes so far, of either season (along with S1Ep2 and S1Ep5). I'll go back to silently reading, now, most likely. I just felt this episode could use another voice of support, because I loved it.
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Comments
"For the narrative to flow better" YMMV, but it feels like breakneck pace at times, to me. It works, but there are so many things just crammed into the current run-time that, again, it suffers IMHO.
In general, though, I do agree that I'd love to see more HUBs in the future. But, there've been some really nice "HUB" moments so far in this season. S2Ep2's Lodge was actually one of my favorite executions of this. In S2Ep1, there was a distinct lack of trust between Clem and her new group that would have made them opening up to her more than they did feel really strange. That just wasn't the case with Lee in Season One.
I do think that Telltale's decided to lighten up on the puzzle/exploration aspects slightly in this season, but I don't think they're doing away with HUBs and interaction. And, though the episodes may be shorter, a big reason for this is that the lack of puzzle elements takes away the most variable time sinks when you play; I don't feel that the story arcs and narratives are diminished this season.
Maybe lack of hubs/time is contributing to this? In those you can decide who you want to talk to, or who you want to avoid. And there aren't a lot of "(?)_____ will remember that"'s, which are one of my favorite things because things you say will get brought up again/held against you.
Eh... debatable. I still think that the overall arc this season has been more focused than last one and that it is mostly decent; enjoyable, I dare say. The devil's in the details for me, however, and those little things lacking from the base of the structure show; it shakes at best, it feels like it will crumble at worst.
EDIT:
> I think it's a perspective thing. In this latest episode, for instance, I got the feeling that the lack of ability for you to explore or chat people up at your leisure was supposed to help add to the feeling that you are a prisoner. It was an immersive choice, in my opinion, and made me really want to find freedom.
Would have worked better if there had been freedom to be had previously. People justify the bland introduction and lack of interactions with the cabin group as an immersive choice, too, since they did not trust you and the like. They said the same once *A House Divided* came,saying that they were on the run and that the episode had to showcase that. There is always *some* time, I just think that people and Telltale are making up excuses not to look for it.
1) Kenny. We've already seen how quickly he can turn against the protagonist in Season One. I wouldn't be surprised to see this resurface, as it's been hinted at several times in the past two episodes.
2) Luke. Luke obvious likes Clem a whole lot. But, he's also found himself opposed to Kenny. I wouldn't be surprised to find us in a situation where we have to choose to side with Luke or Kenny, with dramatic consequences at stake.
3) Sarah. This is probably the new character that we've been able to react to in the most variable of ways so far, and with the Epsiode Three Cliff-hanger, I suspect that how we've approached our relationship with her is going to mean something.
Plenty of other possibilities with more of these characters, as well. It's just that we've yet to see how these consequences may develop, because we've spent the past episode and a half in a very dire situation that forced everyone to set their differences aside. I expect a very different tone in Episode Four.
Part of this is perspective, again. It's apples to oranges. In season one, you created a "group" from the ground-up, and part of that is developing everyone's attitude towards each other. In this season, Clem's joined an existing group with a lot of history. It's a different environment. I think that Episode Three was a really unique experience (similar, maybe, to Episode Two in the first Season), where the director and writer made a conscious effort to manipulate the sort of experience that you've come to expect from TWD in order to evoke an emotional reaction to the situation at hand. Maybe it didn't work for everyone, but it did for me. I felt like a prisoner, and part of that was the lack of freedom that the Episode offered me.
If Nick's alive, I enjoyed his little chat with Clem. "Us guys" :) Shame he is basically nonexistent afterwards.
And yes, Nick was cute in this episode. I loved how after one-eyed Kenny gets up, Nick is like "Not bad, old man" and Kenny goes "Thanks, asshole." I loved that.
People have said that Carver got no development this episode and I have to disagree. His speech to Clem about weakness and survival gave good insight into how he thinks and why he does the things that he does. I wasn't expecting him to be a maniacal evil genius or anything. He's just someone who's decided to fully embrace the whole "survival of the fittest" thing.
Hubs I felt were actually improved in this episode relative to the last one. I liked the part with Clem out in the yard during the first night, walking around and checking in on people. I would have liked more of those but I felt good about being free to talk with people about what they think about the tense situation at hand. There was none of that in Episode 2 and it kinda killed a lot of the tension for me.
Mike and Jane were fine additions. Mike seems a bit boring, but he seems dependable. Jane to me is a far more interesting version of Molly in that rather than just talking a big game and trying to come off as cold and aloof, she demonstrates exactly what a cold bitch she really is with Troy. I'm interested to see where they take her. I think she can be a good dark foil for Clem.
Like Lily, in Season One. Her cold-blooded murder of Carley/Doug hurt so much, in part, because a lot of people believed in Lily and befriended her. Not to say that Lily was a villain, but she's a good example of how I would go about developing a particularly nuanced villain in this sort of game.
My favorite development beyond Clem this season has definitely been Kenny. Having him there means Clem can never forget about all of the terrible things that happened in Season One, and vice-versa. Whether he is capable of pulling himself out of despair, or whether or not he is heading towards a dangerous meltdown, Kenny's really become the most dynamic and developed character of the series outside of our two protagonists. And he's just crazy enough to keep you guessing about just what he's capable of.
Lily's a good example, here. I sided with Lily over Kenny most of the time, because I didn't quite trust him through the first three episodes of Season One. Even still, Lily's ultimate fate (and Carley's, who was one of my stronger relationships) was sealed no matter what. But by Episode Five, when Lee had to go out and look for Clem, Telltale was close enough to the finish line to really allow for more consequences in regards to your relationship choices.
I bet that we're gonna be happier with these elements moving into the final two episodes, now that the "group" can afford to be less reactive (get away from Carver) and more proactive (what do we do next?).
No matter how capable Clem is, she's still a kid, which means that she's learning how to act from the environment around her in a much more adaptable manner than adults are capable of. It'll be interesting to see how she interacts with Jane.
Oh, he got it, alright. The cheap Darwinist psychopath, he was. If taken only in the context of the episode and as an overall villain, he is pretty weak in my eyes, nothing special. Still, like some review stated, his interactions with Clem and that ending scene provided some powerful commentary on who Clementine is/is becoming.
> Hubs I felt were actually improved in this episode relative to the last one. I liked the part with Clem out in the yard during the first night, walking around and checking in on people. I would have liked more of those but I felt good about being free to talk with people about what they think about the tense situation at hand. There was none of that in Episode 2 and it kinda killed a lot of the tension for me.
Yeah the yard was fine. Hell, it was *something*, but it's not healthy to play *Starved for Help* before this, it leaves you starved for MOAR. Still, there is something, I guess.
> Mike and Jane were fine additions. Mike seems a bit boring, but he seems dependable. Jane to me is a far more interesting version of Molly in that rather than just talking a big game and trying to come off as cold and aloof, she demonstrates exactly what a cold bitch she really is with Troy. I'm interested to see where they take her. I think she can be a good dark foil for Clem.
Let's see. Mike seems to be getting the cabin group treatment, a.k.a. the "be there" guy. Jane, on the other hand, seems to be going to play an important role in Clementine's development.
TWD works because it focuses on how the survivors interact with each other and how thy deal with shitty situations. We have had a lot of the latter and so few of the former, and I do not really blame that on Clementine's social skills.
Clem's first interaction with her new group was one that stank of fear and a lack of trust, in both directions.
The new group's assimilation with the Lodge group was kicked off with the murder of one of the Lodge group's members, which doesn't inspire trust. Then, before they could even deal with that situation, they were attacked by Carver's people.
The story hasn't demanded a lot of sitting around and socializing thus far. I do hope that it does in the future, because I've always enjoyed the HUB scenes in the past, but I don't think the game's suffered for the lack of them.
I also feel like the group is at a good point for conflict, I mean we basically have a combination of three different groups and clem herself. So the Dynamic next episode is gonna be great.
There are a lot of different way things could go from here.
I play this game with the same sort of eye that I use to watch a TV show. It's someone else's story; sure, I get to have a say about some of the story, it's a collaboration in that way, but it's not my story. I feel like I enjoy it that way more, because I don't feel entitled to the story itself. I just feel entitled to a great experience, and TWD's never failed me. But everyone does have their own opinion.