Was carver wrong

edited May 2014 in The Walking Dead
I leave Carver was not wrong. Now hear me out on this he wasn't a great guy but the things he was saying made sense. I would compare him to Shane from the show. Here's my reasonings.

First : there must be one strong person in the group for the group to survive. This makes sense Carver says that there needs to be a wolf among sheep he's not really
Lying when he says this to be honest he's the wolf among the sheep.

Second: a leader must not threaten physically but mentally as well. Both episodes two and three he makes threats physically. He also plays peoples heads. When he killed Walter that was to messed with Kenny's head, but he also did this to get even because Kenny one of his men.

Third: in my play through Carver called Clementine the wolf among sheep IE the leader IE the strongest.

These are my reasons why carver wasn't exactly wrong what he said. Tell me what you think.

Comments

  • Tell me what you guys think.
  • Well he is right when he says a leader must be strong but he's wrong when he says a leader must weed out the weak since you don't kill people when they're weak you help them become stronger. But I do agree with him when he says Clementine is a wolf among sheep
  • Carver wasn't a leader; he was a dictator. Effective leaders command through respect, not fear. That's what alienated people in his camp and caused them to wage their bets out in the wilderness as opposed to remaining prisoner inside his fortress.

    Lee and to a lesser extent Clementine embody the natural qualities required of a good leader: they're brave, able to be relied upon to make hard decisions, seek the betterment of the group and, above all else, are empathetic towards the needs of others. People gravitate towards them. Those who remained with Carver were merely scared of the alternative.

    His words to Clementine are half true: she will, at some point, come at the crossroads where her humanity is compromised. Carver obviously lost his due to the psychological strain of keeping everyone alive - I think that's where he was identifying with Clementine.
  • if you stay that make carver said the truth if you leave with sarita that make him wrong about clementine
  • exactly that was the same situation as crawford in s1 ,,, survival of the fittest
    USMC1786 posted: »

    Well he is right when he says a leader must be strong but he's wrong when he says a leader must weed out the weak since you don't kill peopl

  • edited May 2014
    What Carver says is true, that Clementine has what it takes to be a leader and to make tough decisions, but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing. He's also right that she has already seen more than anyone can imagine.

    The best thing she can do to prove him wrong is growing up to become a capable survivor and leader, who hasn't let go of her compassion and humanity. To prove that the ability of making tough calls and doing the things people of weaker character are unable to can be used to protect said weaker people, instead of opressing and killing them.

    Clementine only loses the battle the moment she lets go of her innate kind nature.
    She has to prove that no matter how much heavy shit she goes through, she can still find it in her to be good person, and care about the ones dear to her.
    That's how she must prove Carver wrong. That she hasn't lost sight of what's important. That she hasn't let herself go. That she's NOT like him.
  • If you think about it thats what the walking dead teaches you that you need to be strong to survive and that showing weakness can be your downfall. Clementine is a little girl which puts her in the sights of not only walkers but of evil people who would want to take advantage of her. She out of anybody in the walking dead world has to be the strongest to survive.
  • Carver's a lot worse than Shane. Shane saved Rick's life in the beginning. He lived to keep Lori and Carl safe. The only reason he grew hateful of Rick was because Rick was an ungrateful asshole.

    Shane was still crazy, though, but nowhere near as crazy as Carver was.
  • You also gotta remember Shane didnt live as long enough as Carver so he didnt get to see the true evil of people like the Governor.

    Carver's a lot worse than Shane. Shane saved Rick's life in the beginning. He lived to keep Lori and Carl safe. The only reason he grew hate

  • While a strong leader may be necessary, a strong leader should be a strong as a service to the community.

    So the question you may ask is Carver a strong leader for the benefit of the community for which he leads, or is he a strong leader in order to benefit himself?

    If Carver is strong to benefit the community some his decisions seem very debatable. Why spend time and resources risking members of your community to forcibly bring back people who have made it very clear they no longer want to be part of it. And if was that he wanted to recover his child then why bring back everyone forcibly?

    If he wished to work for the benefit of his community then how is it "good" to forcible restrain people who are no longer members of it. Maybe you need the labour and the expertise but it seems tantamount to slavery. And you need lots of people to guard the people who don't want to be their. Is the cost really worth all the expense?

    And if someone is really not cutting the mustard then is killing them really necessary? Exile would have been perfectly fine. And if you needed labour and warm bodies to build a community then why start shoving people of buildings after you risked members of your community to drag other people back? It wasn't to make an example because he made perfunctory attempts to hide it? When you punish people as an example you make it very public.

    Whats the point of smashing Kennys face in if you need Kenny? Kenny may be tough and have hero points but that sort of damage has a good chance of killing most people and less an eye he is now less effective. If you want to being people into line their are far less wasteful ways of doing it.

    All in all the Carver we see just doesn't seem to be making decisions for the benefit of the community he is supposed to be serving as leader. He seems to be serving his own need for power and control, and he is not doing that particularly well either since that leads to the somewhat predictable outcome of self-destruction.
  • Not saying this could happen but remember when Rick from the walking dead TV show lost his sanity possibly be the same thing for anyone else making those decisions. Like I said this might not ever happen but it's still a possibly. Yet I know he lost his sanity due to his wife dying. But everyone knows someone that died in the apocalypse. Sometime lost almost everyone she knew except for Kenny, only reason she didn't lose her marbles is because she is a child who was given hope by a man who helped her through the apocalypse. Many people have that.
  • edited May 2014
    I think Carver was dead wrong.
    You can be a strong leader, but you don't have to resort to violence.
    Rick, on the tv series, is a good example of that.

    By using violence and intimidation, it is basically called being a dictator.
    To give a great example of a dictator, Adolf Hitler.
    He ruled through violence and intimidation.
    Anyone who disagreed with him, was either sent to an concentration camp, or executed.
    And he became responsible for one of the greatest genocides in human history.

    Violence should only be used as a last resort.
  • edited May 2014
    Actually Clementine already proved that Carver was wrong depending on how you played. If you said to Carver that; "I'm not like you!" and then saying Luke that; "We should tie him up." After that saying Kenny; "Kenny, please. Don't do this!" And finally if you left with Sarita you already proved that Carver was wrong after all. All of those actions proves your "I'm not like you!" dialogue you said to Carver. (Determinant)
  • A good leader shouldn't have to abuse his power to get his crew's respect.
  • A lot of what Carver had to say did make sense, and I agree with a lot of it as well. He made good, valid points during that conversation with Clem, and even when that conversation wasn't happening, he still said some things that made me say, "You know what, he's actually right."
  • I don't think he wanted respect, he controlled his men with fear.

    A good leader shouldn't have to abuse his power to get his crew's respect.

  • If you're going to use fear to control your group, do it Machiavellian. Carver's pecking order was faulty and was meant to fail, just like all of the major empires and cults that used fear to control their groups. Truly, I believe the only healthy way of being the leader of the group is to be respected by them, because being loved and being feared both have their cons.
    Rigtail posted: »

    I don't think he wanted respect, he controlled his men with fear.

  • edited May 2014
    Carver actually does have a point, but most people here live in a rainbow fairy tale land and is scared of being realistic.
    Think about how many lives would've been saved if we got rid of Ben in time. Im not saying Reggie was the same type of fuck-up but there is a point in carvers statement.
  • I agree with that, it's better to be respected than to be feared. Ha, this just reminded me of a funny line from TWAU.

    "It's better to be feared, wanna know who said that?"
    "Some sad asshole." XD

    If you're going to use fear to control your group, do it Machiavellian. Carver's pecking order was faulty and was meant to fail, just like a

  • Thank you guys for the discussion! Yeah and I'm going to be that guy that says I have a new discussion on the ending of episode four. So if you guys want to go over there and have another conversation going right head.

  • FuckCarver

  • It was excellent writing for the character.

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