Some insight on Carver's Community (updated facts)
Well hello there , this is officially my first post today as a member of this forum.
I joined because there seems to be a lot of interesting discussions about the two games that I love, mainly TWD and TWAU, and there are some things nobody seemed to have pointed out yet.
As a fellow script writer, discussing plot points, pointing out good and bad writing, is always an interesting discussion to be had.
I heard a lot of criticism about both games in the past few months and thought I might as well share some of my wisdom with you kind people and fellow TWDG lovers.
First off, this post is about the whole Carver's Community debate. Lot of folks ain't too keen on the writing, its up to us to point out what was done well and what wasn't. Although I really loved this new episode, I gotta say I agree on one point, the episode length compared to season 1.
Anyway, that's another issue.
I just wanted to point out what I gathered about the whole story so far:
We all know from unused files that Carver used to be an engineer at some point before the zombie apocalypse. Which is why his compound as electricity and water.
The voice heard on the Walkie-Talkie in 400 days might be Johnny's voice as they share the same voice actor, although it might just be another unnamed henchman working for Carver
As Bonnie said, Carver wasn't like this before the event of In Harm's Way, something happened and the pieces of the puzzle aren't quite in place yet( DLC maybe ?)
Alvin had a friend named George at some point in the story and killed him while the group tried to escape the Howes supermarket
Carver probably liked George as he uses that name when he introduces himself to Clementine and later reiterate the whole thing between him and Alvin after the hostage situation.
The 400 days group doesn't seem to hate Carver, his group provided food and shelter to them and didn't force them to join him, as seen at the end of the 400 days DLC
Bonnie said that the herd is what rips a community apart and it's implied that they had herds attacking the place before, which is why they're working so hard to reinforce the place.
Something happened that might have changed Carver for the worst.
Which would explains why he seems to have such an aversion for weakness and incompetence. He also says that he can't have that around here...not anymore.
Which might imply that he used to shelter all kinds of people, as he tried to build a good community at first.
Something happened, people got killed, maybe even someone he had close to heart...then later he became hardened and adopted a "survival of the fittest" mindset.
Nothing to lose if your loved one/s are dead right ?
Which would also explains his weird fixation on having a kid of his own...At some point Luke butted head with Carver as to how to do things in the community. They butted heads, which resulted in the group's escape and people died because of it. Like Bonnie says : Ain't no saints in all of this...
Reggie was left behind, Carver brought him back into the community anyway, waiting for an opportunity to get rid of him at some point if he screwed up...turns out Carver likes his berries...( I gotta say I found the whole berry thing a bit laughable...)
Sarah and Carlos were there at the same time that Shel and Becca joined, maybe even after or before.
Wyatt apparently gave up on finding his lovable stoner friend ( Eddie noooooooo!! meh, he'll be back in the next episode
)It's implied Rebecca and Carver had an affair at some point in Alvin's back. In my opinion she wasn't raped...she worked in Carver's office on the PA system and was the one making the announces. Something happened between the two and Carver had a hard time letting go, probably because of his obsession on having a family.
Carver and Carlos also had their differences, but it hasn't really been explained...maybe it was the way to raise Sarah, which would make sense seeing how he treated her in that episode...also the roof scene after clem left.
It's hinted that Carver took care of Uncle Pete while Clementine went back to the cabin, it might've actually been after his intrusion at the cabin since he asks the whereabouts of " a couple of farm boys and an old man", but doesn't question Pete's absence at the ski lodge.
It's interesting to note that Carver doesn't ask about Nick's mom's whereabouts, it was never mentioned that she actually died at the cabin, it might've happened before the group joined Carver for all we know.
That's all I got for now but i'll point other facts if I remember any. Enjoy the analysis overload !!!
Comments
Good Job, for putting some of the pieces together, take a like
thanks dude , I was just tired of hearing bad writing this bad writing that...It isn't bad writing , just because it isn't explained right in your face in some " character A explains the whole plot exposition to character B " way, it doesn't mean that its bad. If anything I prefer to figure things out myself because that's how it would probably work in real life. Sometimes you miss some parts here and there, but if you're smart enough, then the puzzle solves itself quite easily. We're pretty much experiencing the same thing Clementine has experienced this season so far. She's lost so much and his thrown in worst and even worst situations as time goes by. While the dead are knocking at the door, there's no time to catch your breath, you just move on and try to not lose your footing along the way...or you might end up like Uncle Pete ( R.I.P. you were the best !! )
how do you know that was hank in 400 days?
I can tell just by the voice, also he's the one who's always talking to Tavia on the Walkie-Talkie in the episode. Just listen, you'll see. It's the same voice in 400 days.
I miss Pete..... R.I.P
Different voice actors.
indeed, but at least he had an awesome death I guess...I just wish he was still with us...although I really like his nephew Nick, awesome character in his own right, but he ain't no Uncle Pete :P
Voice actors can act with their voice, heard of impersonators?
well as soon as I heard the voice talking to Tavia about the herd in that somewhat tense walkie-talkie scene, I recognised him from 400 days, it just sounded the same to me.
no he's right two different people
It would make more sense if johny was the radio guy since they both share the same voice actor.
Nice analysis! My main language is not english so i don't feel confident about discusing the whole thread (lack of vocabulary) but what i can say is, I don't think Rebecca was rapped, if that was true i don't think she would have hid it from Alvin. Also about the berries, i agree too, killing a man because a "bad berry work" it's stupid, when Clem tries to help Reggie Carver ignored her saying it wasn't her fault, for me, he was waitting for an excuse to kill him.
He indeed was, but being killed because the berries aren't sorted out correctly seems a tad bit ridiculous...but now that I think about it...they were collecting the berries, but if they lost them because of a screw up, there's no way to get them back, they're in a zombie apocalypse after all...maybe he overreacted but still...where the hell would you find NEW berries after you screwed up the last batch ?
Yes it would, but I don't think Telltale planned that far ahead and changed plenty of things along the way.
hmmm...perhaps it was Johnny...I dunno...but yeah, it's obvious that they change a lot of stuff while we wait for the next episodes. Anyway, if anything it was just another henchman working for Carver and not Carver himself on the walkie-talkie in 400 days unless he started smoking a lot and...nah forget it, that's just bloody ridiculous XD
Yup thta's true, Carver was waitting to have an excused, he overreacted, Reggie did his job and Clem was teaching Sarah, he could have been punished but not killed, it's not like he ate them or destroyed the plants, also i wanna know what Carver said to Sarah in the roof.
In my opinion, Carver and Carlos had their differences over how to raise Sarah, or any children of the community for that matter. He was probably teaching her his way of doing things.
A good work indeed
Oh yeah i forgot about that, maybe he gave Sarah a speech like the one he gave to Clem.
why thank you good sir
it's also the first thing I shared with this forum so far, you could say it's my first day haha
glad you appreciate it !
perhaps, something like that, given how naïve and innocent Sarah is...
People talk about bad writing, but we are still on the half of the season! There's still time to explain everything
I miss Pete too... He was my favorite.
He's up there with Lee and Kenny on my list of favorites. He deserved better...but i'll fulfill my promise to Pete and take care of his nephew if it's the last thing I do ! I ain't letting down a good man's last wish...no way ! I just hope Nick won't die just because he's now a determinant character...at least he survived the last one...albeit not saying much and ass-kissing Luke the entire time XD Although I loved his comment about the beds haha
The problem is that that's what people have been saying and hoping for over and over again and it just never happens. Kenny's unrealistic survival being completely unexplained, just as one example, was also passed over with the excuse that they wouldn't just leave that thread in the air. "You all say it's bad writing, but they're obviously going to explain it in the next episode! They're not just going to leave it like that!" And lo and behold, they just left it like that.
Personally, I highly doubt they're going to explain all the backstory people are asking for, given the time limit and all the stuff they're already going to be working on for that episode, but I actually don't really mind. As critical as I've been in the past, I don't feel like there's any real unanswered questions regarding Carver. There seemed to be during episode 2, but since Carver turned out to be a one-note bad guy, there's no longer any ambiguity about things like, "what did the group do to Carver?", and "why did Alvin kill George?". It's all fairly simple to move past since we now know Carver's reign was cruel. I'd prefer just moving past that whole story and focusing on the now.
Yeah, I promised Pete I'd watch out for Nick as well and I'll be damned if I let him down! I'm doing everything in my power to keep my promise, and it doesn't hurt that I think Nick is a cool character either. I want to protect him because I like him as much as because I promised Pete.
I don't think the Carver-Rebecca thing was rape, either; if only due to Rebecca's comment that Alvin would "kill her" if he knew that there was a possibility the child wasn't his. Now, if it hadn't been consensual, I think Alvin would have wanted to kill Carver, not Rebecca. Plus, from Carver's comments right before you escape, he had some sort of twisted idea that he and Rebecca still had a romantic connection. Rebecca also brings up how her and Alvin's own relationship had become strained and they had done nothing but bicker since their escape, so I can definitely see a moment of weakness coming up.
Figuring out the timeline is a bit confusing, though. Rebecca is late into her pregnancy, likely somewhere near 8 or 9 months. So they had to have been with Carver for almost a year. Yet they bring up the death of Nick's mother, yet Carver doesn't count her when questioning Clementine (neither does he at the lodge, and neither does anyone else when you reach the compound). I was left disappointed that while George was introduced, and even given a bit of depth with Carver telling Clementine that that was his name, yet nothing was done with it in Episode 3. And yeah, I can see Sarah being the main dividing point between Carver and Carlos. Carver seems to value Carlos immensely, telling Sarah that he's glad her fathers alive and even commenting that he misses him much earlier on to Clementine. Unfortunately that tension was built up towards the end of Episode 2, yet completely dropped in Episode 3. I feel that Carver's compound introduced too many new characters and stories to explore, which left things introduced in Episode 2 in the dust.
I think that the berries were just an excuse for killing Reggie. Tavia said that she didn't think Carver was going to let Reggie back in the group and I agree with her. I think that Carver saw Sarah as a screw-up just like Reggie and so he killed him in front of her as an example. When Clem leaves the greenhouse area we see Carver moving in front of Sarah and putting his hands on her shoulders. I would bet that he was giving her a "fuck-ups cannot be tolerated here" speech.
Pete was also not counted by Carver in that scene...even though it was hinted that Carver took care of him after or before he turned. Interesting that he also didn't mention Nick's mother, she died at the lodge after all...
Yeah, a lot have people on this forum (and even one of Clem's dialog choices) group Nick and Ben together through their screw ups, with which I've never agreed. While it's true Nick does make his share of moral messes, he demonstrates a willingness to own up to his mistakes, both with Clem and Walter. That's something Ben came close to at times, but never really achieved. I got the impression that Nick exhibited true repentance, while Ben only showed a desire to make himself feel better. Just seems to me that's how their characters were represented during times of stress.
My Clem likes and trusts (more or less) Nick.
Nice first post! Here's a few observations I have in response:
Nice observations about Carver's psyche; I liked how you used specific events as evidence for how he has developed. This makes me wonder - seeing how there is such a complex, unexplored background behind Carver and his community, why would TTG kill Carver off this early in the season? It just makes this entire part of Clem's story a bit smaller than it seems it should be. The only possible explanations I can think of is that (a) those guys from 400 days are going to come back and begin bringing in these details that Clem is unaware of or (b) at some point, a new community may be found or formed and these details would hence be brought up or (3) TTG just didn't see too much they can do with this part of the story without being too cliche.
Reggie's death did seem quite ridiculous. But I was thinking. Maybe Carver just wanted to kill someone in front of Clem and Sarah. He could of sent Clem and Sarah to Reggie in the first place just to set this scene up. By killing Reggie (Carver could have just found any small mistake, and he probably figured there would be one because of Sarah), Carver would be able to observe how the kids reacted, and so be able to better confront Sarah on the roof and to chat with Clem in his office. Remember, to Carver, Reggie was disposable at any moment anyways.
I'm anticipating that Bonnie will be a very important character in the next two episodes. If any conflict occurs between the 400 days crew and Clem's group, Bonnie would probably be the best hope for peace. Yet, the 400 days crew may despise her a lot by now - in the DLC, she was the only character that kept trying to convince everyone to join Carver's community, and now she has changed her mind and left them behind...?
I especially like your last point. I haven't thought that Carver would be interested in Sarah too. I'm pretty sure what Carver said to Sarah in that scene would be brought up later and, along with the death of her father, scar Sarah for life. While on this topic - did anyone else interpret Sarah's behavior on the roof as very disturbing? I'm talking about the scene after Sarah and Clem are sent out of the greenhouse and before Reggie's death. Sarah was standing real close to the edge and Clem seemed to be very concerned, reaching out slowly... did Sarah really consider suicide after getting one slap on the face from her father?!? If so, this really worries me. Her father's death must have made her even more traumatized - how would she react now?
Yeah, I feel similarly about the unexplained backstory. Too much exposition would drag for me, and it seems natural that Kenny would describe his experiences in such reflective, vague terms, like he's still in shock from it even after nearly two years. And while I would appreciate some backstory or even some references to Christa's baby, I find myself caring less and less about it the longer TTG waits to potentially make mention of the whole situation.
I am hoping that some time in episodes 4 or 5, that Clem and company are forced to return to or sneak back into formerly-Carver's camp. Luke did say that the people had picked the surrounding area clean, which I assume includes all or most of the food, baby formula, medicine, diapers, etc. Being forced to return in some fashion would make sense, and could make for some interesting character development with the 400 days crew and the group.
by "one-note", I hope you're not saying that Carver was just a one-dimensional villain...because he wasn't. Although I agree he could've been used better in the grand scheme of things, in my opinion and from what I gathered, he once was a good man with an honest goal, to build a good community, but then tragedies happened which changed Carver's view of the world. He then became this ruthless leader with a vision of a better future but only made of those he deemed worthy and wouldn't risk his own little utopia built on slavery and hard work. Not everyone was a slave though, as you can see the 400 days people are treated quite fairly, maybe they were deemed worthy by Carver and spared the slavery part...I feel like only those who didn't see things his way were put to hard work and the others were just guards and henchmen.
Yeah, I agree. And not to nitpick, but it was Hank that said he didn't think Carver would let Reggie back in; Tavia was skeptical.
Why thank you for your kind analysis of...well...my analysis xD To answer some of the things you just pointed out, I don't think Carver planned the whole " Kill Reggie in front of the little girls" thing, it seems like a stretch to me...it was more a spur of the moment thing and he was just waiting for Reggie to screw up one more time to dispose of him. Now onto Sarah's reaction on the roof...I fear that might be foreshadowing to be honest...I hope not...poor girl has been through enough shit as it is...losing her dad might be the last straw for her...
He doesn't bring up Nick's mother even at the initial cabin meeting. He mentions missing 7 people and describes each of them - but the only women he brings up are Rebecca and Sarah. So I have to think that it was either a huge oversight in writing or Nick's mother was attacked prior to their joining Carver's compound. It would explain why the attack on Nick's mother (and the woman herself) are only ever brought up by Nick, Luke and Pete; people who would plausibly have been together before joining Carver.
The funny thing with Pete is that Carver brings him up when he first gets to the cabin, yet at the lodge he doesn't question why he's not with the group or call for him to come out of hiding. Yet I don't think Pete survived til morning.
It's possible that Nick's mother died before joining Carver...but if not I would say it's an oversight in writing. Although it's never mentioned if she died at the cabin or not. About Pete, I think he actually shot him, in my playthrough anyway, since I went with good ol' Uncle Pete at the end of episode 1. Which might explain why he asks about his whereabouts at first but doesn't question it at the lodge.
I hate it when any form of entertainment spoon feeds you everything since like you I like to figure things out myself
so do I, it's nicee to see someone who shares the same opinion on the matter. Spoon feeding is an insult to the viewer's intelligence in my opinion.
Interesting post, but what unused files do you get the Carver as engineer info and how did you find that out?