It's not really a mistake, as he did what he intended to at the time.
It's not like Kenny's mistake, where he tried to kill someone which then led to the death of someone else, and the same idea with Ben's mistakes.
The gif got obnoxious though: not THAT many people were doubting he would return. Yet it was being posted 4, 5 times on some threads. That was unnecessary.
And all of your 'jokes' seem to revolve around Kenny, or his search for a boat, or that he was racist enough to make the 'urban' comment
Well excuse me for making a stupid joke on the " Clem's cutest face " thread, but as i already said it was just a stupid joke, nothing more.… more Yes i did Post the " Kenny confirmed for Season2 " gif alot of times, just like many others did. Simply because of the fact, that people couldn't accept the truth, that Kenny was confirmed for Season2.
So if you say Lee made mistakes determinatily, you don't think killing the Senator that had sex with his wife wasn't a terrible mistake? Even if your Lee was a fucking saint during the apocolypse, you can't just ignore his past.
But anyway, let's stop this pointless discussion now, shall we?
Lol, i like how you are getting dislikes for stating the truth. Good work
* Bonnie is just as responsible as the the others who invaded… more the ski lodge. She lied and tried to say she was this poor innocent woman who needed supplies. Walter was kind enough to give her some when Kenny didn't trust her, and Clem (depending on choice) can also choose not trust her. Yet how does she repay Walter? By Carver putting a bullet in his head. There's no excuse for lying. And once a liar, always a liar.
* She probably would of got shot had she tried to kill Carver. I don't forgive her. She caused the death of Walter and Alvin and that is not excusable, she's a liar and who knows if she'll lie to the group now that she's with them.
" It's not really a mistake, as he did what he intended to at the time. "
What the hell? Lee killed a man without being in any kind of danger. What makes you possibly believe that this wasn't a mistake?
" It's not like Kenny's mistake, where he tried to kill someone which then led to the death of someone else, and the same idea with Ben's mistakes. "
What the Duck are you even talking about? Kenny tried to save the group. It was a tough but clear shot and if Kenny actually did hit Carvers head with his last bullet, the group would have been saved. How can you possible compare this event, with anything Ben has done in his past?
Anyway, as i already mentioned i don't wanna discuss with you anymore. This thread is about Bonnie, not about Kenny. (And just for the record, i don't just make jokes about Kenny. If you would be around a bit more on this forum, you should know that)
It's not really a mistake, as he did what he intended to at the time.
It's not like Kenny's mistake, where he tried to kill someone which… more then led to the death of someone else, and the same idea with Ben's mistakes.
The gif got obnoxious though: not THAT many people were doubting he would return. Yet it was being posted 4, 5 times on some threads. That was unnecessary.
And all of your 'jokes' seem to revolve around Kenny, or his search for a boat, or that he was racist enough to make the 'urban' comment
Understand that Bonnie is actually a good person that has her reasons to be loyal to Carver, "I´m not defending what he did, that was... I´m alive because of him. That´s just a fact.", this quote defines very well her internal struggle between morality and loyalty, she sits on the fence and try to play both sides, but is easy to see that this won´t end well.
During the talk in the armory, she tries to defend Carver´s methods, due to her loyalty, but she can´t do a convincing justification, since her moral values go against Carver´s actions, then she often doesn´t know what to say, becomes speechless, it is all because of this conflict between those sides of her. You can even see the personality shift because of this conflict: She acts tough and cold when Troy or Carver is around but is kind and nice with Clem.
She also said that her goal was to capture everyone alive and felt bad because Walter( and Alvin )died, this probably sounds like bullshit for most people, but at her perspective it was the way to balance the achievement from both morality and Carver´s loyalty. Her fondness for Clem and the fact that Carver´s methods was getting worse( Reggie´s death and Kenny´s beating ) made her pick a side for good. Now with Carver gone and her attachment for Clem, i don´t see a reason to not trust her, unless you still can´t understand her side and forgive her.
Bonnie did say she assumed that they would just be going to just get the people back to the camp with no one getting hurt or anything. Yes i… moret is partially her fault, but do you know whos fault it is mostly?
Kenny and Carver. Carver is the one who killed Walter and can kill Alvin despite only getting shot in the shoulder and "not losing anyone" and he also beats up Carlos whilst optionally holding either Sarita or Clementine at gunpoint.
Kenny however is the one who started this fiasco, he made a bad situation worse by shooting Johnny, and if he shoots Carver in your game then he caused Alvins death as well.
Like Carlos said "Regardless of intent, there are consequences to rash actions. Something that he is misreading as capitulation" - I like Kenny but his idiotic rash actions caused the deaths of Walter and can cause the death of Alvin.
The difference there is Nick thought Matthew was holding up Luke and Clem. He was wrong but he genuinely thought he was killing a bad man who was going to shoot his friends. Walter was captured and defenseless, Carver didn't kill him because he was a threat, he killed him to gain an advantage over somebody who was a threat. That's still extremely ruthless and shows no value for innocent life, so it disgusted me that Bonnie tried to justify it.
Well, people defended Nick for killing Matthew, a man who showed Clem and Luke kindness, by saying that he was just "protecting his friends.… more" It may be obvious to most of us that Nick had good intentions and Carver didn't, but that's because we saw Nick as our friend and Carver as our enemy. Bonnie had a very different perspective.
At that point, her view of Carver was still as a fundamentally decent man struggling to keep a huge community safe and together. He took her in and saved her life and was probably fairly kind towards her. She also implied that he used to be a lot more reasonable in his leadership. So when he does something wrong, her first reaction is to rationalize it as best she can.
Right, but in Bonnie's eyes, it was an extremely ruthless move made by Carver to protect his people. Which is what she said. She wasn't defending that what Carver did was right (she said so herself). She was trying to explain why he might have felt it was necessary to do what he did. In her mind, killing Walter was a desperate move by Carver to bail his group out of a shitty situation. She accepts the fact that it was wrong because it cost an innocent person his life, but she wanted to point out that the Carver did have a good cause behind his actions. She was trying to convince Clem (and to some extent, herself) that the fact that a person did something ruthless and immoral does not necessarily mean that they're a complete monster. "Ain't no saints in all this."
The difference there is Nick thought Matthew was holding up Luke and Clem. He was wrong but he genuinely thought he was killing a bad man wh… moreo was going to shoot his friends. Walter was captured and defenseless, Carver didn't kill him because he was a threat, he killed him to gain an advantage over somebody who was a threat. That's still extremely ruthless and shows no value for innocent life, so it disgusted me that Bonnie tried to justify it.
The ends don't necessarily justify the means, especially in this case. The fact that he chose to outright kill somebody rather than simply try holding them at gunpoint, as well as choosing his first victim to be somebody he doesn't even know, is extremely evil in itself. It was the moment Carver confirmed himself to be a villain in my view. The fact that Bonnie tries to insist Carver isn't evil despite his character reflecting in how quickly he jumps to morally black methods still irks me and is a sign that she's in denial and just can't face the fact that people can turn out to be horrible, which is a naive trait in the ZA. Her denial of the obvious fact that Carver's evil in light of an innocent man, who had been kind to her no less, makes her come across as kind of selfish and very unappreciative.
Way I see it, if she doesn't apologise for trying to justify Walter's murder, I don't think I'll ever forgive her.
Right, but in Bonnie's eyes, it was an extremely ruthless move made by Carver to protect his people. Which is what she said. She wasn't defe… morending that what Carver did was right (she said so herself). She was trying to explain why he might have felt it was necessary to do what he did. In her mind, killing Walter was a desperate move by Carver to bail his group out of a shitty situation. She accepts the fact that it was wrong because it cost an innocent person his life, but she wanted to point out that the Carver did have a good cause behind his actions. She was trying to convince Clem (and to some extent, herself) that the fact that a person did something ruthless and immoral does not necessarily mean that they're a complete monster. "Ain't no saints in all this."
Again, she wasn't saying that she thought the ends justified the means in that case. She was only pointing out that there were ends there to be considered, to argue that Carver isn't just some guy who goes around killing innocent people for no reason. He had reason. To protect his people. But Bonnie recognizes that that's not enough to justify what he did.
This may have been the first time that Bonnie has seen Carver do something like that. So from her perspective, he was a somewhat reasonable, if harsh leader who was pushed into doing something drastic by an unwieldy situation. Because he saved her life and because she saw a softer side to him, he wasn't as obviously evil to her as she was to us.
Think about how quickly Kenny fans jump to his defense when he does something dickish. Because they like him, they start off give him the benefit of the doubt and try to bring up why he did the things he did to make his actions sound less harsh. That's what Bonnie was doing. And I can sympathize with that, even though I disagree with her arguments.
The ends don't necessarily justify the means, especially in this case. The fact that he chose to outright kill somebody rather than simply t… morery holding them at gunpoint, as well as choosing his first victim to be somebody he doesn't even know, is extremely evil in itself. It was the moment Carver confirmed himself to be a villain in my view. The fact that Bonnie tries to insist Carver isn't evil despite his character reflecting in how quickly he jumps to morally black methods still irks me and is a sign that she's in denial and just can't face the fact that people can turn out to be horrible, which is a naive trait in the ZA. Her denial of the obvious fact that Carver's evil in light of an innocent man, who had been kind to her no less, makes her come across as kind of selfish and very unappreciative.
Way I see it, if she doesn't apologise for trying to justify Walter's murder, I don't think I'll ever forgive her.
good points and im suprised that the group took her with them when they escaped because of what she did, honestly if the option was available she would have been one of the people to get shot in the head during/before the breakout.
It is not the same kind of mistake that Ben and Kenny made. They thought they were saving people ,but were instead dooming them to death. Lee wasn't trying to SAVE anyone, and he did as he intended to.
EXACTLY my point! Just like Ben, Kenny tried to save the group but unfortunately this was a mistake and led to Alvin and Walt's death.
" It's not really a mistake, as he did what he intended to at the time. "
What the hell? Lee killed a man without being in any kind of da… morenger. What makes you possibly believe that this wasn't a mistake?
" It's not like Kenny's mistake, where he tried to kill someone which then led to the death of someone else, and the same idea with Ben's mistakes. "
What the Duck are you even talking about? Kenny tried to save the group. It was a tough but clear shot and if Kenny actually did hit Carvers head with his last bullet, the group would have been saved. How can you possible compare this event, with anything Ben has done in his past?
Anyway, as i already mentioned i don't wanna discuss with you anymore. This thread is about Bonnie, not about Kenny. (And just for the record, i don't just make jokes about Kenny. If you would be around a bit more on this forum, you should know that)
Bonnie did say she assumed that they would just be going to just get the people back to the camp with no one getting hurt or anything. Yes i… moret is partially her fault, but do you know whos fault it is mostly?
Kenny and Carver. Carver is the one who killed Walter and can kill Alvin despite only getting shot in the shoulder and "not losing anyone" and he also beats up Carlos whilst optionally holding either Sarita or Clementine at gunpoint.
Kenny however is the one who started this fiasco, he made a bad situation worse by shooting Johnny, and if he shoots Carver in your game then he caused Alvins death as well.
Like Carlos said "Regardless of intent, there are consequences to rash actions. Something that he is misreading as capitulation" - I like Kenny but his idiotic rash actions caused the deaths of Walter and can cause the death of Alvin.
Comments
It's not really a mistake, as he did what he intended to at the time.
It's not like Kenny's mistake, where he tried to kill someone which then led to the death of someone else, and the same idea with Ben's mistakes.
The gif got obnoxious though: not THAT many people were doubting he would return. Yet it was being posted 4, 5 times on some threads. That was unnecessary.
And all of your 'jokes' seem to revolve around Kenny, or his search for a boat, or that he was racist enough to make the 'urban' comment
My Clem is waiting for her opportunity to get her killed >=)
" It's not really a mistake, as he did what he intended to at the time. "
What the hell? Lee killed a man without being in any kind of danger. What makes you possibly believe that this wasn't a mistake?
" It's not like Kenny's mistake, where he tried to kill someone which then led to the death of someone else, and the same idea with Ben's mistakes. "
What the Duck are you even talking about? Kenny tried to save the group. It was a tough but clear shot and if Kenny actually did hit Carvers head with his last bullet, the group would have been saved. How can you possible compare this event, with anything Ben has done in his past?
Anyway, as i already mentioned i don't wanna discuss with you anymore. This thread is about Bonnie, not about Kenny. (And just for the record, i don't just make jokes about Kenny. If you would be around a bit more on this forum, you should know that)
Understand that Bonnie is actually a good person that has her reasons to be loyal to Carver, "I´m not defending what he did, that was... I´m alive because of him. That´s just a fact.", this quote defines very well her internal struggle between morality and loyalty, she sits on the fence and try to play both sides, but is easy to see that this won´t end well.
During the talk in the armory, she tries to defend Carver´s methods, due to her loyalty, but she can´t do a convincing justification, since her moral values go against Carver´s actions, then she often doesn´t know what to say, becomes speechless, it is all because of this conflict between those sides of her. You can even see the personality shift because of this conflict: She acts tough and cold when Troy or Carver is around but is kind and nice with Clem.
She also said that her goal was to capture everyone alive and felt bad because Walter( and Alvin )died, this probably sounds like bullshit for most people, but at her perspective it was the way to balance the achievement from both morality and Carver´s loyalty. Her fondness for Clem and the fact that Carver´s methods was getting worse( Reggie´s death and Kenny´s beating ) made her pick a side for good. Now with Carver gone and her attachment for Clem, i don´t see a reason to not trust her, unless you still can´t understand her side and forgive her.
Like Sarita said, Kennys actions were justified, and you cant blame him for the actions of a madman.
The difference there is Nick thought Matthew was holding up Luke and Clem. He was wrong but he genuinely thought he was killing a bad man who was going to shoot his friends. Walter was captured and defenseless, Carver didn't kill him because he was a threat, he killed him to gain an advantage over somebody who was a threat. That's still extremely ruthless and shows no value for innocent life, so it disgusted me that Bonnie tried to justify it.
Right, but in Bonnie's eyes, it was an extremely ruthless move made by Carver to protect his people. Which is what she said. She wasn't defending that what Carver did was right (she said so herself). She was trying to explain why he might have felt it was necessary to do what he did. In her mind, killing Walter was a desperate move by Carver to bail his group out of a shitty situation. She accepts the fact that it was wrong because it cost an innocent person his life, but she wanted to point out that the Carver did have a good cause behind his actions. She was trying to convince Clem (and to some extent, herself) that the fact that a person did something ruthless and immoral does not necessarily mean that they're a complete monster. "Ain't no saints in all this."
The ends don't necessarily justify the means, especially in this case. The fact that he chose to outright kill somebody rather than simply try holding them at gunpoint, as well as choosing his first victim to be somebody he doesn't even know, is extremely evil in itself. It was the moment Carver confirmed himself to be a villain in my view. The fact that Bonnie tries to insist Carver isn't evil despite his character reflecting in how quickly he jumps to morally black methods still irks me and is a sign that she's in denial and just can't face the fact that people can turn out to be horrible, which is a naive trait in the ZA. Her denial of the obvious fact that Carver's evil in light of an innocent man, who had been kind to her no less, makes her come across as kind of selfish and very unappreciative.
Way I see it, if she doesn't apologise for trying to justify Walter's murder, I don't think I'll ever forgive her.
Again, she wasn't saying that she thought the ends justified the means in that case. She was only pointing out that there were ends there to be considered, to argue that Carver isn't just some guy who goes around killing innocent people for no reason. He had reason. To protect his people. But Bonnie recognizes that that's not enough to justify what he did.
This may have been the first time that Bonnie has seen Carver do something like that. So from her perspective, he was a somewhat reasonable, if harsh leader who was pushed into doing something drastic by an unwieldy situation. Because he saved her life and because she saw a softer side to him, he wasn't as obviously evil to her as she was to us.
Think about how quickly Kenny fans jump to his defense when he does something dickish. Because they like him, they start off give him the benefit of the doubt and try to bring up why he did the things he did to make his actions sound less harsh. That's what Bonnie was doing. And I can sympathize with that, even though I disagree with her arguments.
good points and im suprised that the group took her with them when they escaped because of what she did, honestly if the option was available she would have been one of the people to get shot in the head during/before the breakout.
Let me explain more clearly:
It is not the same kind of mistake that Ben and Kenny made. They thought they were saving people ,but were instead dooming them to death. Lee wasn't trying to SAVE anyone, and he did as he intended to.
EXACTLY my point! Just like Ben, Kenny tried to save the group but unfortunately this was a mistake and led to Alvin and Walt's death.
So you blame Kenny for fighting back and not just giving up? For all he and Clem knew they could be executed the second Carver has control