That's a little different though. Females make up 50% of the population, whereas homosexual people only make up like 7% of the population. It's significantly more noticeable when women aren't proportionally represented. Some people can go their whole lives without knowing a gay person. You can't go through your whole life not knowing a woman. I'm not trying to put down your point or anything, but your point about women not being realistically represented is a bigger issue, in my opinion. TWD has had 2 gay characters. I'm not sure of the percentage (I don't know how many total speaking characters there are), but it probably comes close to being proportionally correct. Anyways, I agreed with your OP. I don't see why it would be downvoted.
Female representation IS a bigger issue, but let me put it like this:
Season 1 had about 25 proper characters. Around 8 female and 17 male. You would expect about 12 female and 13 male or vice versa.
Season 1 had NO gay characters or relationships, and had about 15 definitely-straight characters. That is still statistically unlikely.
Now, just because it's about half as surprising, that doesn't make it not bad or not worth mentioning.
Moreover, most people on the thread were saying there shouldn't be gay characters because sexuality doesn't matter in a game like TWD. However, they didn't seem to mind that there were loads of straight characters and relationships, so they were just being hypocritical.
That's a little different though. Females make up 50% of the population, whereas homosexual people only make up like 7% of the population. I… moret's significantly more noticeable when women aren't proportionally represented. Some people can go their whole lives without knowing a gay person. You can't go through your whole life not knowing a woman. I'm not trying to put down your point or anything, but your point about women not being realistically represented is a bigger issue, in my opinion. TWD has had 2 gay characters. I'm not sure of the percentage (I don't know how many total speaking characters there are), but it probably comes close to being proportionally correct. Anyways, I agreed with your OP. I don't see why it would be downvoted.
Sarcasm, right?
If it isn't. then no, I am not a 'feminist hippie', I am just a man that believe people shouldn't immediately be treated differently because of their race, sex, gender or sexuality.
It's kind of bizarre that you and DomeWIng333 are taking the effort to compile all these statistics just to try and prove wrong those of us here who are excited over female characters. What exactly are you gaining out of this?
The vast majority of men are stronger than women, yes.
These differences in muscularity translate into large differences in strength a… morend speed. Men have about 90% greater upper-body strength, a difference of approximately three standard deviations (Abe et al., 2003, Lassek and Gaulin, 2009). The average man is stronger than 99.9% of women (Lassek & Gaulin, 2009). Men also have about 65% greater lower body strength (Lassek and Gaulin, 2009, Mayhew and Salm, 1990), over 45% higher vertical leap, and over 22% faster sprint times (Mayhew & Salm, 1990). Contrary to earlier claims, sex differences in anaerobic sprint speeds are not narrowing (Cheuvront et al., 2005, Seiler et al., 2007).
It's kind of bizarre that you and DomeWIng333 are taking the effort to compile all these statistics just to try and prove wrong those of us here who are excited over female characters. What exactly are you gaining out of this?
Who knows, they may eventually decide to flesh Jane out a bit more in the upcoming videos. We're definitely gonna see alot of her in the next episode anyway judging from the trailer.
I've been waiting for someone to say that. I love the prostitutes in TWAU because they're human beings and act like most people would if the… morey were forced to be hookers.
I just love it because it's natural and just good writing. So far there's only been one "bad" female character and that was because she was written as someone trying too hard to be badass. I know Jane is quite similar to Molly in many ways but she fit right in with the narrative, I don't know how but she did. Probably because Jane lacks that stupid parkour bullshit on top of it so she's not quite a "Mary Sue" character. I just hope episode 4 doesn't ruin it like the previews show.
I'm not trying to prove people wrong because they're excited about female characters. I'm trying to prove people wrong because they're wrong. I care about facts. And when people report things that aren't factual, I think it's important to correct them. The best way I know to do that is by citing evidence drawn from the scientific literature. It doesn't take much effort. Just a simple Google Scholar search of "men women pain differences" or "men women strength differences" will net you plenty of citations like the ones I provided.
Instead of asking what is to be gained from reporting facts and statistics, you should be asking what can be gained by misreporting facts and statistics. A statement about the greatness of women based on faulty evidence only serves to undermine the message being communicated. It's far better to accept the facts that are there and argue about their significance than to cover your eyes and ears and pretend that they're not there.
It's kind of bizarre that you and DomeWIng333 are taking the effort to compile all these statistics just to try and prove wrong those of us here who are excited over female characters. What exactly are you gaining out of this?
Not every goddamn thing is sexism. I just read all of these posts and your points are all wrong. Telltale probably doesn't think about this stuff. Midian's point is really good above and males are meant to be stronger and more of a survivalist than females.
Then that's just another form of sexism, thinking that seeing a dead woman is worse than seeing a dead man. You can see why seeing dead chil… moredren is sadder: because they will have had shorter, more unfulfilled lives.
If the reason that there are more male walkers than female ones is just to pander to the idea that seeing dead women is sadder than seeing dead men, then that's a different form of sexism and should also be stopped.
However, I think if that were really the case, they would avoid generic female walkers all together, like with children ones. The fact that they choose to include them as generic walkers shows that they still think people are just as capable of seeing female ones as male ones, and so it can't really be the case that there are fewer because they don't want people to see dead women.
Otherwise, there would be no generic female walkers whatsoever.
1) Guns are loud and definitely not the best way to handle walkers. I'd say the best of all weapons is a lance. Or even better: stealth avoidance.
2) Physical strength is definitely good, but so is small stature and dexterity, so let's not underrate them. Remember how Clem escaped a walker by squeezing in between boards? Someone who wasn't small and dextrous as she was could have died in that situation. Women have better balance, higher dexterity, and smaller stature than men. These are great attributes for stealth and combat.
In short, physically fit men can use their strength to their advantage, and fit women can use their dexterity and smaller stature to their advantage. If i were to place odds on people for survival, I would actually say that fit men would probably not be as successful because they would have a tendency to be overconfident in their sheer strength and put themselves in needless danger. I think smaller, less buff men would actually be more likely to survive than he-men.
Well, about the owning a weapon thing, 47% of men in the US own a gun while only 13% of women do (http://www.gallup.com/poll/20098/gun-owner… moreship-use-america.aspx).
And, yeah, we're not arm-wrestling here, but greater physical strength afford you more options against zombies. Like when the hoard of zombies were piling on the door that Lee was under in the beginning of episode 3. If Kenny hadn't helped him (and he didn't for a lot of people), Lee had to rely on his physical strength to get out of there. A weaker person would have probably died.
Well said! I do love how they usually deftly sidestep caricatures and stereotypes. I was a bit worried when I found out that Lee was going to prison (negative stereotype of blacks as criminal thugs) but then, turns out, he's a professor, and fatherly. :-)
I would have to disagree with your inclusion of Carley though. Her inability to identify that batteries were required but missing, admission that she doesn't know what batteries look like, and inability to put them in correctly really plays into the stereotype that women are dumb and incompetent about technology. I was cringing really badly. She was pretty poorly written there and I think it did a disservice to her character.
Fortunately, only a few are... Not really happy with the fact that there are more women than men.
Many things make us love this game so muc… moreh, one of them is that you find who you can relate to, or even who you want to be.
Anyway, in many games you don't see a lot, or over-sexualised women. Now they have good women (seriously : Christa, Molly, Clementine, Carley, Lilly, etc) capable and easy to relate to. In many movies (video games, maybe ?), they are just the eye candy or the one who have coitus with somebody.
Us, urbans... How many movies where the 1st to die is a brotha (no-ones give a sh*t when he/she do). Now look what we have, Lee, Clementine (she is African-American), Mike, etc.
-Too many things to write about. And as you know, I am lazy.
This game is not about people, not a specific group, but people surviving. Also, it is hard to feel that your "kind" is left-out.
Page 2
Doesn't help that you've got Doug, the tech-savvy guy, as her counterpart. Although I think the fact that she's good with a gun and action-oriented and he's a bit... squishy might balance that out.
Well said! I do love how they usually deftly sidestep caricatures and stereotypes. I was a bit worried when I found out that Lee was going t… moreo prison (negative stereotype of blacks as criminal thugs) but then, turns out, he's a professor, and fatherly. :-)
I would have to disagree with your inclusion of Carley though. Her inability to identify that batteries were required but missing, admission that she doesn't know what batteries look like, and inability to put them in correctly really plays into the stereotype that women are dumb and incompetent about technology. I was cringing really badly. She was pretty poorly written there and I think it did a disservice to her character.
Well, I don't have the statistics, but I'm willing to bet that more men own lances than women.
On a more serious note, while it's true that it is better to avoid than to engage, when things go to shit (like they often do in The Walking Dead) or when you need to quickly take out a few zombies from afar, a handgun is pretty well...handy. They're not the end-all-be-all of zombie apocalypse survival, but at the end of the day, having and knowing how to handle a gun would probably contribute a lot to a person's survival. There's the issue of other humans to deal with as well.
I largely agree with the second point. (Although, a stronger person in Clem's situation would probably have done a bit more damage to the oncoming zombie with that plank of wood.) There are advantages and disadvantages for both men and women in these things. Men are stronger, but might be less dexterous (I can't really find good data one way or the other on this), and overconfident. Women are weaker, but might be more dexterous, and perhaps hesitant. Unless we do a Hunger Games-type thing, there's know way to really know which is better for overall survival.
1) Guns are loud and definitely not the best way to handle walkers. I'd say the best of all weapons is a lance. Or even better: stealth avoi… moredance.
2) Physical strength is definitely good, but so is small stature and dexterity, so let's not underrate them. Remember how Clem escaped a walker by squeezing in between boards? Someone who wasn't small and dextrous as she was could have died in that situation. Women have better balance, higher dexterity, and smaller stature than men. These are great attributes for stealth and combat.
In short, physically fit men can use their strength to their advantage, and fit women can use their dexterity and smaller stature to their advantage. If i were to place odds on people for survival, I would actually say that fit men would probably not be as successful because they would have a tendency to be overconfident in their sheer strength and put themselves in needless danger. I think smaller, less buff men would actually be more likely to survive than he-men.
I just had a unfortunate thought. With the way the next episode is set up, chances are the majority of the female characters may not last long.
Sarita: She's bitten, and is either amputated with a bloodied axe (thus risking more infection), or is not and may be too late to be amputated later.
Rebecca: Is about to give birth, and may or may not survive the procedure without a doctor.
Sarah: Is most likely gone mentally, and may likely either become suicidal or a liability to the group in a way.
Jane: Appears to be set up as an minor antagonist in some way, and might end up turning on the group to save her own skin due to her lone-wolf persona.
Bonnie: What's left of Carver's group may or may not take her betrayal well and might hunt her down.
Hey! Don't fat-shame my Dougie! He's just more plush and cuddly! =P
In my play-through at least, it felt like Carley was a bit stupid with her gun. I had to stop her from shooting it and alerting all the zombies. And I mean, she had a prone zombie just grab her ankle and couldn't fight it off lol. It didn't really balance for me, unfortunately, because her incompetence with technology was so incredibly extensive (not knowing what a battery looks like?!) that it made her look stupid and incompetent in general. Meanwhile, as you smartly point out, it's even worse cuz she's contrasted with Doug, who is incredibly helpful through his intelligence and competence with technology.
Because of their characterisation, to me, and from what I've seen people say on other forums, the decision between Doug and Carley translated to: do wanna save the smart guy or the dumb hot chick so you can maybe get laid. That's what lots of people were saying: that the only reason to save a girl in general is to get laid because she's dumb and useless, but hey she's got tits (people actually said this) and sorry Doug, but they'll go for the tits every time! :-/ The way TTG wrote and contrasted these characters enabled that kind of...stereotypical thinking and that's not a good thing.
Doesn't help that you've got Doug, the tech-savvy guy, as her counterpart. Although I think the fact that she's good with a gun and action-oriented and he's a bit... squishy might balance that out.
Everyone who's saying that the men are stronger than women point is invalid are pretty fucking stupid, I mean the strength factor isn't just for being able to win in a fight, it plays in to everything you need to do physically to survive, Men are naturally better with everything that requires physical strength, such as, running, lifting up heavy objects, being able to climb, breaking down doors, having enough power to bash in a walkers head, etc. pretty much anything that is needed in a zombie apocalypse to survive, sorry, but if you cant run away from a herd, or cant climb out of a sticky situation, that gun wont cut it. and for the more male walkers than female walkers, well how is that any proof what so ever, Telltale re-uses a lot of their walker models, sometimes with minor tweaks such as maybe different hair or a different shirt or maybe missing a limb or whatever it may be, and even if they intentionally put more males in, that doesn't mean more females survived, how do we know that a majority of females didn't get shot in the head, or didn't have their spouses or friends put them out of their misery, see we can never know, so the walker count argument isn't really stable enough to hold up a good point
As for the dexterity thing, women have a lower centre of mass (at their hips) whereas men have a higher one (between the shoulders), so women have better balance. Men also tend to be taller, and so their centre of mass is even higher from the ground. There are a few easy-to-do experiments that illustrate this, for example, the chair experiment. Any case, you can just think back to gym class in school: who had more flexibility, the girls or the guys?
The problem with guns also is that they run out of bullets. How many people have stockpiles of ammo? It won't last you very long, and then it's utterly useless. Guns are really not the thing to rely upon. And I think Dead Island 1 taught this lesson well! So I wouldn't agree that they contribute a lot to survival. Maybe in the TV show where they're all l337 h4xx0rs and their guns have infinite ammo, but not real life.
I don't think we need to do Hunger Games style stuff to see survival rates. Just look irl. Women outnumber men currently, and in war-torn and third-world countries, women outnumber men even more. The greatest danger of course, as the TV show likes to beat us over the heads with, is other people, and that's usually men killing men. Here's a stat for you since you like them: worldwide, 78.7% of homicide victims are male (UN). That's very close to the rate in the US, and in the US, men commit 90% of homicides. That stat is probably higher in war-torn and third-world countries.
Well, I don't have the statistics, but I'm willing to bet that more men own lances than women.
On a more serious note, while it's true t… morehat it is better to avoid than to engage, when things go to shit (like they often do in The Walking Dead) or when you need to quickly take out a few zombies from afar, a handgun is pretty well...handy. They're not the end-all-be-all of zombie apocalypse survival, but at the end of the day, having and knowing how to handle a gun would probably contribute a lot to a person's survival. There's the issue of other humans to deal with as well.
I largely agree with the second point. (Although, a stronger person in Clem's situation would probably have done a bit more damage to the oncoming zombie with that plank of wood.) There are advantages and disadvantages for both men and women in these things. Men are stronger, but might be less dexterous (I can't really find good data one way or the other on this), and … [view original content]
Yes you did miss something. You forgot to read the original post:
"Until now, all groups in the main game (defining group as one where there are four or more members) have ALWAYS had more men than women, which is unrealistic."
Oh, I interpreted dexterity as being able to make swift, coordinated movements. The studies I read pertaining to sex differences in those were mixed. In terms of balance and flexibility, I agree, women have the edge. I still see strength and speed coming more into play than balance and flexibility though. I could be convinced otherwise if you have some compelling examples though.
How many people have stockpiles of ammo?
Well, it is the South...
While it's true that guns aren't great to depend on long-term, I imagine them being very important during the first few months of survival when things can get pretty messy and chaotic. They're a good security measure when things go sour and a good deterrent for assholes. Melee weapons favor men even more.
I don't think that survival rates in men and women, even those in war-torn countries, are good indications for survival rates in a scenario like the Walking Dead. As you pointed out, in war, it's largely men who do the fighting. If men are the ones doing the fighting, then of course men are going to be the ones dying. What we're concerned about are scenarios in which everyone--men and women, young and old--have to fight to stay alive.
Lances are craft-able - that was the point. =P
As for the dexterity thing, women have a lower centre of mass (at their hips) whereas men … morehave a higher one (between the shoulders), so women have better balance. Men also tend to be taller, and so their centre of mass is even higher from the ground. There are a few easy-to-do experiments that illustrate this, for example, the chair experiment. Any case, you can just think back to gym class in school: who had more flexibility, the girls or the guys?
The problem with guns also is that they run out of bullets. How many people have stockpiles of ammo? It won't last you very long, and then it's utterly useless. Guns are really not the thing to rely upon. And I think Dead Island 1 taught this lesson well! So I wouldn't agree that they contribute a lot to survival. Maybe in the TV show where they're all l337 h4xx0rs and their guns have infinite ammo, but not real life.
I don't think we need to… [view original content]
Yes you did miss something. You forgot to read the original post:
"Until now, all groups in the main game (defining group as one where there are four or more members) have ALWAYS had more men than women, which is unrealistic."
...little harsh there, man. Though admittedly 4+ members does seem like a bit of an arbitrary stipulation (I myself tend to go with the tried and true "Three's a crowd" rule),
Everyone who's saying that the men are stronger than women point is invalid are pretty fucking stupid, I mean the strength factor isn't just… more for being able to win in a fight, it plays in to everything you need to do physically to survive, Men are naturally better with everything that requires physical strength, such as, running, lifting up heavy objects, being able to climb, breaking down doors, having enough power to bash in a walkers head, etc. pretty much anything that is needed in a zombie apocalypse to survive, sorry, but if you cant run away from a herd, or cant climb out of a sticky situation, that gun wont cut it. and for the more male walkers than female walkers, well how is that any proof what so ever, Telltale re-uses a lot of their walker models, sometimes with minor tweaks such as maybe different hair or a different shirt or maybe missing a limb or whatever it may be, and even if they intentionally put more males in, that doesn't… [view original content]
sorry, but if you cant run away from a herd, or cant climb out of a sticky situation, that gun wont cut it.
lol so are you suggesting that physically fit, able-bodied women aren't even able to outrun dead, decaying men? I think that's a bit of an over-exaggeration of gender differences. ;-)
In any case, You're pretty screwed if you are trying to outrun a herd or fight them head on, regardless of gender. What matters more in these situations is what's between your ears, not what's between your legs; the best thing to do in that situation is the smart thing rather than the fight/flight response - climb a tree, hide, smear yourself with guts so they can't detect you, or just be a part of a community and have walls.
I think in general, we as a society put too much value in strength and violence and not enough into carefulness and intelligence. No-one can really Kenny or Tyreese their way out of situations irl, and to survive successfully, it's more about setting up a functioning society, putting up good & clever defences, growing crops, settling conflicts through talking, rationing properly, and observing and understanding how the infection works and how to outsmart zombies etc. In other words, it's more about smart planning and a careful, considered approach, less about lifting heavy objects and hulk-smashing zombies.
Everyone who's saying that the men are stronger than women point is invalid are pretty fucking stupid, I mean the strength factor isn't just… more for being able to win in a fight, it plays in to everything you need to do physically to survive, Men are naturally better with everything that requires physical strength, such as, running, lifting up heavy objects, being able to climb, breaking down doors, having enough power to bash in a walkers head, etc. pretty much anything that is needed in a zombie apocalypse to survive, sorry, but if you cant run away from a herd, or cant climb out of a sticky situation, that gun wont cut it. and for the more male walkers than female walkers, well how is that any proof what so ever, Telltale re-uses a lot of their walker models, sometimes with minor tweaks such as maybe different hair or a different shirt or maybe missing a limb or whatever it may be, and even if they intentionally put more males in, that doesn't… [view original content]
It's a nice thought that in war-torn and third-world countries, only combatants (men) get killed, but that's not really the case, unfortunately. We're talking civil wars here. Right now, Boko Haram is massacring entire villages of people. In Rwanda, people were being slaughtered for their ethnicity. In the Ukraine, you have civilians taking to the streets with weapons. In some parts of the world right now, it's completely lawless. In other words, heavy civilian casualties.
I referenced these war-torn and third-world countries because they are the best indicator we have right now: places where there are harsh living conditions, lack of food, and no law enforcement.
As for the dexterity and coordinated movements, it was a while ago, but pretty sure I read in developmental biology that girls develop fine motor skills earlier and faster than boys, and I think that they end up with better fine motor skills. In any case, balance and flexibility are important in being able to avoid being grabbed or pulled down by walkers. Those who are taller and have worse balance can easily be knocked down. When you're knocked down you're screwed (except on TV). Flexibility and smaller stature also comes into play in hiding and squeezing through tight areas to avoid walkers or retrieve supplies. In games, I've been shoving various female characters through windows and between bars to retrieve keys and unlock doors so many times lol. Consider also that women require fewer calories per day to sustain themselves than men do.
Have you ever heard the saying, "you don't need to be the fastest gazelle; you only need to be faster than the slowest gazelle"? Well, that's the idea here. The slowest gazelle in this case is the zombie (or any physically unfit members in your group). It doesn't matter that one individual is faster than other individual so much as it matters that you are faster than the slowest one. So speed only comes into play insofar as you can outrun a shambling decaying zombie. And I think in general, this can also apply for strength. It doesn't matter that a man could beat a woman in a fist fight; what matters is that both can beat a decaying zombie in a fist fight lol. Strength allows you to wield bigger weapons, but the heavier the weapon, the slower it is, so there's a trade-off there. Smaller, lighter melee weapons are quieter, faster, and easily wielded by anyone. I'd say they are the better weapons in a zombie apocalypse. Swift attacks are important.
As for the first few months with a gun... well let's think about the situation. There's probably a huge increase in zombies at first (lack of understanding of the situation, not as many zombies have been killed or wrecked by decay/nature yet, army hasn't yet responded and culled the zombie population), and the zombies haven't had time to migrate and spread out, so they're concentrated in inhabited areas. And in the first few months, the survivors would also be in those locations too. In other words, you'd be around tons of zombies and trying to get away. If you were to shoot a gun in that situation, it might save you from the immediate zombie attack, but I'd imagine you'd get surrounded by a herd rather quickly if you did due to the high concentration. Best to be Glenn-like and sneak out, or hole up in your house for a while.
Oh, I interpreted dexterity as being able to make swift, coordinated movements. The studies I read pertaining to sex differences in those we… morere mixed. In terms of balance and flexibility, I agree, women have the edge. I still see strength and speed coming more into play than balance and flexibility though. I could be convinced otherwise if you have some compelling examples though.
How many people have stockpiles of ammo?
Well, it is the South...
While it's true that guns aren't great to depend on long-term, I imagine them being very important during the first few months of survival when things can get pretty messy and chaotic. They're a good security measure when things go sour and a good deterrent for assholes. Melee weapons favor men even more.
I don't think that survival rates in men and women, even those in war-torn countries, are good indications for survival rates in a scenario like the Walking Dead. As you pointed ou… [view original content]
It's a nice thought that in war-torn and third-world countries, only combatants (men) get killed, but that's not really the case, unfortunately.
Sorry if it seemed like I was implying that only men were dying in these conflicts. I'm aware that there are a great deal of civilian casualties in war, particularly civil war. But even if civilian casualties were included in the calculations, it still seems to me that more men would still be dying than women overall because of their participation in the armies and militias. From what I know about it, warfare almost always leads to a decrease in the male population, relative to the female population. That just seems to me to be a plausible explanation for why war-torn countries in particular tend to have a higher female population. I don't see any other reason why that would be the case.
Resistance to being grabbed or pulled down by walkers seems like it would be as dependent on strength as balance, if not moreso. The squeezing through narrow corridors thing is more straightforwardly easier for women, but the game scenarios in which that has happened often struck me as a bit contrived. That might just be a personal thing, though. maybe there would be a lot of hiding and squeezing in cramped spaces in an actual apocalypse.
Consider also that women require fewer calories per day to sustain themselves than men do.
That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that.
Zombies, from what we've seen tend, to be essentially on par with regular humans in terms of strength, so the slowest gazelle still isn't really that slow in that case. I guess it's true that speed probably wouldn't matter that much when you're running from zombies. It might not always be zombies though.
Strength doesn't just allow you to wield heavier weapons, it also allows you to wield lighter weapons with more efficacy.
Again, sneaking out is great when it works, but when it doesn't a gun is a good last-resort. If you find yourself running from a hoard of zombies and there are one or two in the way of your escape, you need something like a gun to take care of them without putting yourself in harm's way.
It's a nice thought that in war-torn and third-world countries, only combatants (men) get killed, but that's not really the case, unfortunat… moreely. We're talking civil wars here. Right now, Boko Haram is massacring entire villages of people. In Rwanda, people were being slaughtered for their ethnicity. In the Ukraine, you have civilians taking to the streets with weapons. In some parts of the world right now, it's completely lawless. In other words, heavy civilian casualties.
I referenced these war-torn and third-world countries because they are the best indicator we have right now: places where there are harsh living conditions, lack of food, and no law enforcement.
As for the dexterity and coordinated movements, it was a while ago, but pretty sure I read in developmental biology that girls develop fine motor skills earlier and faster than boys, and I think that they end up with better fine motor skills. In any case, balance and flexibili… [view original content]
I'm not fat-shaming. Just pointing out that he's not very action-oriented. I'm sorry if it came off that way.
The decision between Doug and Carley was very poorly done and imbalanced, although I'll be honest I wasn't really focused on Carley's breasts. More like the gun in her hands. For the decision to have true balance, they should have been on equal levels of attractiveness, usefulness (skill sets etc), and both had a weapon.
Hell, it would have been interesting if they were both conventionally "unattractive" and you had to make the choice, in a way where "Will I get laid?" isn't really the first thought that pops into one's mind.
What's interesting about playing Clementine is that luckily most people don't really think that way when making decisions with her, because she's a little girl. I certainly didn't run off with Uncle Pete at the end of episode 1 thinking, "Hell yeah I'm gonna score tonight."
All that being said, though, I'm sure there are some folks out there who chose Doug because they thought he was cute. He's not a bad-looking guy.
Hey! Don't fat-shame my Dougie! He's just more plush and cuddly! =P
In my play-through at least, it felt like Carley was a bit stupid wit… moreh her gun. I had to stop her from shooting it and alerting all the zombies. And I mean, she had a prone zombie just grab her ankle and couldn't fight it off lol. It didn't really balance for me, unfortunately, because her incompetence with technology was so incredibly extensive (not knowing what a battery looks like?!) that it made her look stupid and incompetent in general. Meanwhile, as you smartly point out, it's even worse cuz she's contrasted with Doug, who is incredibly helpful through his intelligence and competence with technology.
Because of their characterisation, to me, and from what I've seen people say on other forums, the decision between Doug and Carley translated to: do wanna save the smart guy or the dumb hot chick so you can maybe get laid. That's what lots of people were saying: that… [view original content]
First of all, i did not say ALL women, obviously some will survive, i was simply replying to those who claim there is NO difference between men and and women with physical skills and that a gun is all that matters, and about the running away thing and the whole plan thing, well what if someone plans to go through a manhole in a back ally but ends up in a lee situation where walkers come from both sides and you have to push a bin and then lift a manhole cover and so on, well be honest, who do you think is going to have a better chance, a man whose body is designed to deal with physical obstacles, or a woman who lacks those natural skills. and if you knew how muscles worked you would know that he physically fit argument is total garbage, if you didn't know, muscles wear out in around 6 weeks or so if you don't work out constantly, and lets be honest, in the zombie apocalypse, nobody will have the energy to do so and if they do they need to save that energy to kill zombies or something, let alone having the time to do so. although i do agree intelligence and careful planning is one of the most important if not thee most important thing in a zombie apocalypse, that does not mean that strength does not play a major role as well, you need both intelligence and strength to make it, no matter how smart you are or how good a plan you have, you won't be able to pull off it without strength
sorry, but if you cant run away from a herd, or cant climb out of a sticky situation, that gun wont cut it.
lol so are you suggestin… moreg that physically fit, able-bodied women aren't even able to outrun dead, decaying men? I think that's a bit of an over-exaggeration of gender differences. ;-)
In any case, You're pretty screwed if you are trying to outrun a herd or fight them head on, regardless of gender. What matters more in these situations is what's between your ears, not what's between your legs; the best thing to do in that situation is the smart thing rather than the fight/flight response - climb a tree, hide, smear yourself with guts so they can't detect you, or just be a part of a community and have walls.
I think in general, we as a society put too much value in strength and violence and not enough into carefulness and intelligence. No-one can really Kenny or Tyreese their way out of situations irl, and to survive success… [view original content]
I'm getting kinda sick of this "who goes through more pain argument"
Can't we just say they are equal? Sure women give birth but i'm 100% sure there are many things that can happen to both sexes that are twice as painful.
Is this it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlU2lmzzpxQ
It was pretty funny. Their reactions weren't at all surprising to me though. I've … morenever doubted for a second that women have a higher pain threshold. Very easy for all these misogynist asswipes to say otherwise when they don't go through a fraction as much pain.
The deciding factor for me is that while either can potentially go through a lot, it's women who commonly go through more agony, while men have it much easier. I find that simple fact of life more convincing than any statistics. And this is a guy talking. I'm sick of it as well, for some reason it had to become this big debate.
I'm getting kinda sick of this "who goes through more pain argument"
Can't we just say they are equal? Sure women give birth but i'm 100% sure there are many things that can happen to both sexes that are twice as painful.
About the reused walker models, there's one bald walker that showed up so much in season 1 that my friends and I nicknamed him Bill. He's been in season 2 a few times as well lol.
Everyone who's saying that the men are stronger than women point is invalid are pretty fucking stupid, I mean the strength factor isn't just… more for being able to win in a fight, it plays in to everything you need to do physically to survive, Men are naturally better with everything that requires physical strength, such as, running, lifting up heavy objects, being able to climb, breaking down doors, having enough power to bash in a walkers head, etc. pretty much anything that is needed in a zombie apocalypse to survive, sorry, but if you cant run away from a herd, or cant climb out of a sticky situation, that gun wont cut it. and for the more male walkers than female walkers, well how is that any proof what so ever, Telltale re-uses a lot of their walker models, sometimes with minor tweaks such as maybe different hair or a different shirt or maybe missing a limb or whatever it may be, and even if they intentionally put more males in, that doesn't… [view original content]
Comments
Lol. Me too.
That's a little different though. Females make up 50% of the population, whereas homosexual people only make up like 7% of the population. It's significantly more noticeable when women aren't proportionally represented. Some people can go their whole lives without knowing a gay person. You can't go through your whole life not knowing a woman. I'm not trying to put down your point or anything, but your point about women not being realistically represented is a bigger issue, in my opinion. TWD has had 2 gay characters. I'm not sure of the percentage (I don't know how many total speaking characters there are), but it probably comes close to being proportionally correct. Anyways, I agreed with your OP. I don't see why it would be downvoted.
Haha If Alvin was white they'd almost look alike too. XD
Female representation IS a bigger issue, but let me put it like this:
Season 1 had about 25 proper characters. Around 8 female and 17 male. You would expect about 12 female and 13 male or vice versa.
Season 1 had NO gay characters or relationships, and had about 15 definitely-straight characters. That is still statistically unlikely.
Now, just because it's about half as surprising, that doesn't make it not bad or not worth mentioning.
Moreover, most people on the thread were saying there shouldn't be gay characters because sexuality doesn't matter in a game like TWD. However, they didn't seem to mind that there were loads of straight characters and relationships, so they were just being hypocritical.
I think he was being sarcastic... Only time the word "hippy" was used as an kind of insult? Was during the 60's, replacing the 50's beatnik.....
It's kind of bizarre that you and DomeWIng333 are taking the effort to compile all these statistics just to try and prove wrong those of us here who are excited over female characters. What exactly are you gaining out of this?
Male supremacy. Submit to your rulers!
Who knows, they may eventually decide to flesh Jane out a bit more in the upcoming videos. We're definitely gonna see alot of her in the next episode anyway judging from the trailer.
I'm not trying to prove people wrong because they're excited about female characters. I'm trying to prove people wrong because they're wrong. I care about facts. And when people report things that aren't factual, I think it's important to correct them. The best way I know to do that is by citing evidence drawn from the scientific literature. It doesn't take much effort. Just a simple Google Scholar search of "men women pain differences" or "men women strength differences" will net you plenty of citations like the ones I provided.
Instead of asking what is to be gained from reporting facts and statistics, you should be asking what can be gained by misreporting facts and statistics. A statement about the greatness of women based on faulty evidence only serves to undermine the message being communicated. It's far better to accept the facts that are there and argue about their significance than to cover your eyes and ears and pretend that they're not there.
Not every goddamn thing is sexism. I just read all of these posts and your points are all wrong. Telltale probably doesn't think about this stuff. Midian's point is really good above and males are meant to be stronger and more of a survivalist than females.
1) Guns are loud and definitely not the best way to handle walkers. I'd say the best of all weapons is a lance. Or even better: stealth avoidance.
2) Physical strength is definitely good, but so is small stature and dexterity, so let's not underrate them. Remember how Clem escaped a walker by squeezing in between boards? Someone who wasn't small and dextrous as she was could have died in that situation. Women have better balance, higher dexterity, and smaller stature than men. These are great attributes for stealth and combat.
In short, physically fit men can use their strength to their advantage, and fit women can use their dexterity and smaller stature to their advantage. If i were to place odds on people for survival, I would actually say that fit men would probably not be as successful because they would have a tendency to be overconfident in their sheer strength and put themselves in needless danger. I think smaller, less buff men would actually be more likely to survive than he-men.
Well said! I do love how they usually deftly sidestep caricatures and stereotypes. I was a bit worried when I found out that Lee was going to prison (negative stereotype of blacks as criminal thugs) but then, turns out, he's a professor, and fatherly. :-)
I would have to disagree with your inclusion of Carley though. Her inability to identify that batteries were required but missing, admission that she doesn't know what batteries look like, and inability to put them in correctly really plays into the stereotype that women are dumb and incompetent about technology. I was cringing really badly. She was pretty poorly written there and I think it did a disservice to her character.
Man this thread is a real battleground lol
Any time you bring up the concept of "diversity" and "representation" on this forum, people flip their lids. It's sad.
Doesn't help that you've got Doug, the tech-savvy guy, as her counterpart. Although I think the fact that she's good with a gun and action-oriented and he's a bit... squishy might balance that out.
Well, I don't have the statistics, but I'm willing to bet that more men own lances than women.
On a more serious note, while it's true that it is better to avoid than to engage, when things go to shit (like they often do in The Walking Dead) or when you need to quickly take out a few zombies from afar, a handgun is pretty well...handy. They're not the end-all-be-all of zombie apocalypse survival, but at the end of the day, having and knowing how to handle a gun would probably contribute a lot to a person's survival. There's the issue of other humans to deal with as well.
I largely agree with the second point. (Although, a stronger person in Clem's situation would probably have done a bit more damage to the oncoming zombie with that plank of wood.) There are advantages and disadvantages for both men and women in these things. Men are stronger, but might be less dexterous (I can't really find good data one way or the other on this), and overconfident. Women are weaker, but might be more dexterous, and perhaps hesitant. Unless we do a Hunger Games-type thing, there's know way to really know which is better for overall survival.
I just had a unfortunate thought. With the way the next episode is set up, chances are the majority of the female characters may not last long.
Sarita: She's bitten, and is either amputated with a bloodied axe (thus risking more infection), or is not and may be too late to be amputated later.
Rebecca: Is about to give birth, and may or may not survive the procedure without a doctor.
Sarah: Is most likely gone mentally, and may likely either become suicidal or a liability to the group in a way.
Jane: Appears to be set up as an minor antagonist in some way, and might end up turning on the group to save her own skin due to her lone-wolf persona.
Bonnie: What's left of Carver's group may or may not take her betrayal well and might hunt her down.
The fedora went rampant on this thread, wow.
Hey! Don't fat-shame my Dougie! He's just more plush and cuddly! =P
In my play-through at least, it felt like Carley was a bit stupid with her gun. I had to stop her from shooting it and alerting all the zombies. And I mean, she had a prone zombie just grab her ankle and couldn't fight it off lol. It didn't really balance for me, unfortunately, because her incompetence with technology was so incredibly extensive (not knowing what a battery looks like?!) that it made her look stupid and incompetent in general. Meanwhile, as you smartly point out, it's even worse cuz she's contrasted with Doug, who is incredibly helpful through his intelligence and competence with technology.
Because of their characterisation, to me, and from what I've seen people say on other forums, the decision between Doug and Carley translated to: do wanna save the smart guy or the dumb hot chick so you can maybe get laid. That's what lots of people were saying: that the only reason to save a girl in general is to get laid because she's dumb and useless, but hey she's got tits (people actually said this) and sorry Doug, but they'll go for the tits every time! :-/ The way TTG wrote and contrasted these characters enabled that kind of...stereotypical thinking and that's not a good thing.
So Omid, Clem and Christa is a majority male? Did I miss something here?
yeah and especially when it was just Clem and Christa for over a year, how is that male majority, thats actually 100% female
Shel's group in 400 Days had a female majority (Females: Shel, Becca, Stephanie, Joyce. Males: Roman, Boyd, Clive).
The group of Bonnie, Leland and Dee also was female majority.
Same for Clem, Omid and Christa.
Everyone who's saying that the men are stronger than women point is invalid are pretty fucking stupid, I mean the strength factor isn't just for being able to win in a fight, it plays in to everything you need to do physically to survive, Men are naturally better with everything that requires physical strength, such as, running, lifting up heavy objects, being able to climb, breaking down doors, having enough power to bash in a walkers head, etc. pretty much anything that is needed in a zombie apocalypse to survive, sorry, but if you cant run away from a herd, or cant climb out of a sticky situation, that gun wont cut it. and for the more male walkers than female walkers, well how is that any proof what so ever, Telltale re-uses a lot of their walker models, sometimes with minor tweaks such as maybe different hair or a different shirt or maybe missing a limb or whatever it may be, and even if they intentionally put more males in, that doesn't mean more females survived, how do we know that a majority of females didn't get shot in the head, or didn't have their spouses or friends put them out of their misery, see we can never know, so the walker count argument isn't really stable enough to hold up a good point
Lances are craft-able - that was the point. =P
As for the dexterity thing, women have a lower centre of mass (at their hips) whereas men have a higher one (between the shoulders), so women have better balance. Men also tend to be taller, and so their centre of mass is even higher from the ground. There are a few easy-to-do experiments that illustrate this, for example, the chair experiment. Any case, you can just think back to gym class in school: who had more flexibility, the girls or the guys?
The problem with guns also is that they run out of bullets. How many people have stockpiles of ammo? It won't last you very long, and then it's utterly useless. Guns are really not the thing to rely upon. And I think Dead Island 1 taught this lesson well! So I wouldn't agree that they contribute a lot to survival. Maybe in the TV show where they're all l337 h4xx0rs and their guns have infinite ammo, but not real life.
I don't think we need to do Hunger Games style stuff to see survival rates. Just look irl. Women outnumber men currently, and in war-torn and third-world countries, women outnumber men even more. The greatest danger of course, as the TV show likes to beat us over the heads with, is other people, and that's usually men killing men. Here's a stat for you since you like them: worldwide, 78.7% of homicide victims are male (UN). That's very close to the rate in the US, and in the US, men commit 90% of homicides. That stat is probably higher in war-torn and third-world countries.
Yes you did miss something. You forgot to read the original post:
Oh, I interpreted dexterity as being able to make swift, coordinated movements. The studies I read pertaining to sex differences in those were mixed. In terms of balance and flexibility, I agree, women have the edge. I still see strength and speed coming more into play than balance and flexibility though. I could be convinced otherwise if you have some compelling examples though.
Well, it is the South...
While it's true that guns aren't great to depend on long-term, I imagine them being very important during the first few months of survival when things can get pretty messy and chaotic. They're a good security measure when things go sour and a good deterrent for assholes. Melee weapons favor men even more.
I don't think that survival rates in men and women, even those in war-torn countries, are good indications for survival rates in a scenario like the Walking Dead. As you pointed out, in war, it's largely men who do the fighting. If men are the ones doing the fighting, then of course men are going to be the ones dying. What we're concerned about are scenarios in which everyone--men and women, young and old--have to fight to stay alive.
A group has nothing to do with 4 people. Misleading title lock this thread or change the title.
...little harsh there, man. Though admittedly 4+ members does seem like a bit of an arbitrary stipulation (I myself tend to go with the tried and true "Three's a crowd" rule),
This.
lol so are you suggesting that physically fit, able-bodied women aren't even able to outrun dead, decaying men? I think that's a bit of an over-exaggeration of gender differences. ;-)
In any case, You're pretty screwed if you are trying to outrun a herd or fight them head on, regardless of gender. What matters more in these situations is what's between your ears, not what's between your legs; the best thing to do in that situation is the smart thing rather than the fight/flight response - climb a tree, hide, smear yourself with guts so they can't detect you, or just be a part of a community and have walls.
I think in general, we as a society put too much value in strength and violence and not enough into carefulness and intelligence. No-one can really Kenny or Tyreese their way out of situations irl, and to survive successfully, it's more about setting up a functioning society, putting up good & clever defences, growing crops, settling conflicts through talking, rationing properly, and observing and understanding how the infection works and how to outsmart zombies etc. In other words, it's more about smart planning and a careful, considered approach, less about lifting heavy objects and hulk-smashing zombies.
It's a nice thought that in war-torn and third-world countries, only combatants (men) get killed, but that's not really the case, unfortunately. We're talking civil wars here. Right now, Boko Haram is massacring entire villages of people. In Rwanda, people were being slaughtered for their ethnicity. In the Ukraine, you have civilians taking to the streets with weapons. In some parts of the world right now, it's completely lawless. In other words, heavy civilian casualties.
I referenced these war-torn and third-world countries because they are the best indicator we have right now: places where there are harsh living conditions, lack of food, and no law enforcement.
As for the dexterity and coordinated movements, it was a while ago, but pretty sure I read in developmental biology that girls develop fine motor skills earlier and faster than boys, and I think that they end up with better fine motor skills. In any case, balance and flexibility are important in being able to avoid being grabbed or pulled down by walkers. Those who are taller and have worse balance can easily be knocked down. When you're knocked down you're screwed (except on TV). Flexibility and smaller stature also comes into play in hiding and squeezing through tight areas to avoid walkers or retrieve supplies. In games, I've been shoving various female characters through windows and between bars to retrieve keys and unlock doors so many times lol. Consider also that women require fewer calories per day to sustain themselves than men do.
Have you ever heard the saying, "you don't need to be the fastest gazelle; you only need to be faster than the slowest gazelle"? Well, that's the idea here. The slowest gazelle in this case is the zombie (or any physically unfit members in your group). It doesn't matter that one individual is faster than other individual so much as it matters that you are faster than the slowest one. So speed only comes into play insofar as you can outrun a shambling decaying zombie. And I think in general, this can also apply for strength. It doesn't matter that a man could beat a woman in a fist fight; what matters is that both can beat a decaying zombie in a fist fight lol. Strength allows you to wield bigger weapons, but the heavier the weapon, the slower it is, so there's a trade-off there. Smaller, lighter melee weapons are quieter, faster, and easily wielded by anyone. I'd say they are the better weapons in a zombie apocalypse. Swift attacks are important.
As for the first few months with a gun... well let's think about the situation. There's probably a huge increase in zombies at first (lack of understanding of the situation, not as many zombies have been killed or wrecked by decay/nature yet, army hasn't yet responded and culled the zombie population), and the zombies haven't had time to migrate and spread out, so they're concentrated in inhabited areas. And in the first few months, the survivors would also be in those locations too. In other words, you'd be around tons of zombies and trying to get away. If you were to shoot a gun in that situation, it might save you from the immediate zombie attack, but I'd imagine you'd get surrounded by a herd rather quickly if you did due to the high concentration. Best to be Glenn-like and sneak out, or hole up in your house for a while.
Sorry if it seemed like I was implying that only men were dying in these conflicts. I'm aware that there are a great deal of civilian casualties in war, particularly civil war. But even if civilian casualties were included in the calculations, it still seems to me that more men would still be dying than women overall because of their participation in the armies and militias. From what I know about it, warfare almost always leads to a decrease in the male population, relative to the female population. That just seems to me to be a plausible explanation for why war-torn countries in particular tend to have a higher female population. I don't see any other reason why that would be the case.
Resistance to being grabbed or pulled down by walkers seems like it would be as dependent on strength as balance, if not moreso. The squeezing through narrow corridors thing is more straightforwardly easier for women, but the game scenarios in which that has happened often struck me as a bit contrived. That might just be a personal thing, though. maybe there would be a lot of hiding and squeezing in cramped spaces in an actual apocalypse.
That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that.
Zombies, from what we've seen tend, to be essentially on par with regular humans in terms of strength, so the slowest gazelle still isn't really that slow in that case. I guess it's true that speed probably wouldn't matter that much when you're running from zombies. It might not always be zombies though.
Strength doesn't just allow you to wield heavier weapons, it also allows you to wield lighter weapons with more efficacy.
Again, sneaking out is great when it works, but when it doesn't a gun is a good last-resort. If you find yourself running from a hoard of zombies and there are one or two in the way of your escape, you need something like a gun to take care of them without putting yourself in harm's way.
I'm not fat-shaming. Just pointing out that he's not very action-oriented. I'm sorry if it came off that way.
The decision between Doug and Carley was very poorly done and imbalanced, although I'll be honest I wasn't really focused on Carley's breasts. More like the gun in her hands. For the decision to have true balance, they should have been on equal levels of attractiveness, usefulness (skill sets etc), and both had a weapon.
Hell, it would have been interesting if they were both conventionally "unattractive" and you had to make the choice, in a way where "Will I get laid?" isn't really the first thought that pops into one's mind.
What's interesting about playing Clementine is that luckily most people don't really think that way when making decisions with her, because she's a little girl. I certainly didn't run off with Uncle Pete at the end of episode 1 thinking, "Hell yeah I'm gonna score tonight."
All that being said, though, I'm sure there are some folks out there who chose Doug because they thought he was cute. He's not a bad-looking guy.
First of all, i did not say ALL women, obviously some will survive, i was simply replying to those who claim there is NO difference between men and and women with physical skills and that a gun is all that matters, and about the running away thing and the whole plan thing, well what if someone plans to go through a manhole in a back ally but ends up in a lee situation where walkers come from both sides and you have to push a bin and then lift a manhole cover and so on, well be honest, who do you think is going to have a better chance, a man whose body is designed to deal with physical obstacles, or a woman who lacks those natural skills. and if you knew how muscles worked you would know that he physically fit argument is total garbage, if you didn't know, muscles wear out in around 6 weeks or so if you don't work out constantly, and lets be honest, in the zombie apocalypse, nobody will have the energy to do so and if they do they need to save that energy to kill zombies or something, let alone having the time to do so. although i do agree intelligence and careful planning is one of the most important if not thee most important thing in a zombie apocalypse, that does not mean that strength does not play a major role as well, you need both intelligence and strength to make it, no matter how smart you are or how good a plan you have, you won't be able to pull off it without strength
I'm getting kinda sick of this "who goes through more pain argument"
Can't we just say they are equal? Sure women give birth but i'm 100% sure there are many things that can happen to both sexes that are twice as painful.
The deciding factor for me is that while either can potentially go through a lot, it's women who commonly go through more agony, while men have it much easier. I find that simple fact of life more convincing than any statistics. And this is a guy talking. I'm sick of it as well, for some reason it had to become this big debate.
Why were you banned again?
About the reused walker models, there's one bald walker that showed up so much in season 1 that my friends and I nicknamed him Bill. He's been in season 2 a few times as well lol.