Potential traitor, or plot hole?
I've been playing over episode three a few times, checking out the various dialogues, and there's this one part of the episode as I play more and more that doesn't sit well with me. The part in question involves the radio that Carver has in his hands at the time we discovered Luke has been captured; and I have to wonder HOW does he have that radio?
Clementine is sent to drop off the radio to Luke, so it doesn't make any sense that Luke was captured with a radio already. I can't see why another member of the group would carry a radio with them for a couple of reasons: risk of it being discovered, and/or being damaged as they do their chores. The safest place for the group's radio is hidden somewhere in the pen where they're locked up until they need to use it. However, it seems, that shortly after morning chores start, the two radios are discovered missing and one immediately is recovered.
Carver didn't give any indications of how it was recovered other than to say that the group's plan has already failed. Now I could just chalk this up to a plot hole but normally Telltale is very neat and careful with their scripts. Sure, a minor thing here and there, but this is a pretty glaring oversight to me if they just needed to move the plot along. So that got me thinking about an alternative explanation: maybe there's a traitor in the group.
It would be a logical reason to how the radio was discovered so quickly. But who would be the traitor? Well I think the cabin group is safely not on the list since they all want to escape, no matter the risk. So that leaves three potential candidates: Mike, Jane, and... Sarita. Mike was pretty eager to get his hands on the one radio to drop off to Luke, and knew Luke was around (having spoken with him earlier) so he could have tipped off the guards to be vigilant. So if there was a traitor he'd be my prime suspect. Jane is a mostly unknown to us and as such her motives could be selfish enough to get herself in a position where she wouldn't be watched as much so she could escape on her own. I left Sarita in on the list because she loves Kenny and that may put her in a position where she feels that for Kenny's safety she would have to work against him to stop him from doing something reckless. Sarita was pretty upset that the only reason why she and Kenny were being dragged into this mess was because the cabin group showed up.
So what do you think? Traitor, or plot hole? I'm just trying to make sense of the scene.
Comments
Didn't Clementine grab two walkietalkies, though?
Yes, she did. One for the group, and one for Luke. So somehow the radio for the group was found and in Carver's hands when we walked into the pen.
Yeah, but she was only bringing one of them to Luke. Someone else had the other one.
SOMEONE had the radio, and everyone was in the pen. When they found Luke, I'm sure Carver interrogated him a bit to find out their plan, and probably used his lack of food and sleep to his advantage. Luke is forced to fess up, the one with the radio/the one who knew where they hid it had no choice but to hand it over. I think. I'm tired right now, so I might have read over some stuff you said in the OP.
There's 3 ways I see this circumstance:
Guards just caught Luke and made him confess the plan which prompted Carver to get the first radio from the group, regardless of whoever had the first one.
Someone in the group might've just misplaced it and someone like Troy found it. He gave a sad look when Carver was beating Kenny, maybe because of regret?
There is a traitor. Mike?(He was pretty eager to get a radio), Bonnie?(Clem could reveal the plan to her), Jane?(mysterious & interested in her own goals), Sarah?(Carver could've brainwashed her to "do what's good for the community")
There was 2 Walkie-Talkies right? So Clementine picked one to give to Luke and the other they were holding or hiding in the yard, because they couldn't just walk free whenever they wanted. My guess is, someone saw Luke sneaking around, Carver took him and everyone to the yard, maybe he interrogeted him a bit and we know Carver isn't dumb, probably asked Tavia with she noticed something strange and finally he discovered the missing Walkie-Talkies, he searched a little in ther yard and found it there. This is what I think.
Yeah I had just watched Game Over ENT's theory on Ep 4 and he mentioned this. It might be an oversight but I don't think it is.
I kind of talked about this in this thread: http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/72462/why-is-it-luke-s-fault
People there had some good ideas. I don't think it has to be a plot hole OR a traitor. Mostly, I decided Carver must have an uncanny ability to know when something's up. Tavia reported the two missing walkie talkies and maybe Carver saw Rebecca or someone acting nervous and he put two and two together and went straight away to search the pen. At some point in that timeline, he also caught Luke. Luke didn't look that badly beat up, and I don't think he would so easily rat out his friends. So i don't think Carver tortured the radio plan out of Luke.
But as for the idea of a traitor, I'd never thought of that. But I suppose it is possible, and as long as we're talking about scenes that seemed a bit mysterious, I'd like to suggest it was Sarah. Now, wait! I do like Sarah. I like Sarah just fine. But there was that weird scene after Carver pushed Reggie off the roof and then he very pointedly sent Clem away and took a moment to talk to Sarah alone. I've always wondered what he said and kind of assumed it was more run-of-the-mill Carver propaganda. But who knows? Maybe it was some horrible threat. Maybe Carver really got into her head. I don't think the traitor could have been Sarita or Mike. They both seem like good people to me. And Jane for sure wanted to escape ASAP. She wouldn't throw a monkey wrench in the plan like that and possibly delay the escape.
Sarah she was alone with carver on the roof what if he asked her to spy for him to keep everyone safe what do you guys think she is really trusting
A few people above me have mentioned it already, but it would be interesting if Sarah was the one that told Carver about Luke and the radio. On the roof, he could have warned her to not disappoint him again and that she's had too many screw-ups already. Maybe he said that she could make up for it by informing him of any plans the group makes? I'm reaching like hell but I think it would be a cool twist. Like if we find Sarah in episode 4, she reveals that she played a part in Kenny getting beaten and this can influence how we treat her from now on. For example, if you're mad at her for betraying the group, you can choose to leave her behind (stone cold but I could see it!) Hm. But I'm probably over complicating things; they probably hid the radio in the pen and when Luke was caught, Carver searched the place and found it.
Funny. I was just wondering earlier today why Kenny couldn't take the walkie talkie to Luke since there was a dialogue option to ask that when he and Mike are arguing over who should take the radio. I was about to make a discussion on it, since I thought it was odd that he didn't want to do it himself since he obviously didn't trust Mike, and he should've been able to do it for almost all the same reasons his listed for Clementine doing it, so I thought something was up, especially since there is a dialogue option to ask Kenny if he knew about Luke being caught. But I rewatched the episode and it just seems like Kenny being Kenny. I highly doubt he would betray the group anyway.
I did think of the possibility of there being a traitor in the group before this though, but it was mainly Bonnie in my mind since she seemed like the most likely of the current characters to betray us, and she has the option of knowing about the walkie talkie or getting suspicious. You make a good point that it could be Mike, but I think he was just being the only reasonable adult in the episode, by not wanting a kid to do everything. But like what everyone else has been saying, it was most likely that they caught Luke and were either able to get the information out of him or the others, or they noticed the missing walkie talkies.
But judging by Kenny's amazing ability to hide the walkie talkie in the scene when they're deciding who should take it, I think they probably found the other one, and then put two and two together.
So... this may be a Ben situation? again? crap :I
Oooh, never though about Sarah. And when I do think about it, Sarah, did flip and told pretty much everything to her dad in episode two when the group returned to the cabin after going out looking for Luke and Alvin.
But why would Mike go all that way to escape if he was a traitor? Why would he still help them get out?
Well, Mike didn't show heavy interest in escaping until after Kenny was beaten by Carver. And Kenny also expressed distrust towards him when Mike wanted the radio, saying something like, "I'm sorry, Mike, but I don't know you from f-cking Adam".
Yeah I've been seeing a lot of others also saying that Carver somehow forced the group to reveal the radio when Luke was captured. Only part of this idea I don't like is how much time was available to coerce the radio out of the group. Story telling and keeping track of time in the story is rather hard when it's all passively being done. Screen cut here, fade to black there... we don't know how much time has actually passed. But if we were to assume that the 15 minutes that Clem needed was actually 15 minutes in the game, there's still a lack of time to have everything make sense.
Let's say that it took 10 minutes (and I'm being generous) to get Clementine from the pen to the armory, and then another 15 minutes until her capture by Troy, and finally maybe 5-10 minutes to walk back to the pen. That's a window of 35 minutes from the time they all left the pen to discover and capture Luke, bring back the other members of the cabin group, and finally break the group to reveal the missing radio.
In my mind it still doesn't all add up. Luke didn't seem all that badly beaten up - he just looked more exhausted and weak from the lack of food and sleep. Luke didn't look nothing like how Carlos looked when Carver was working him over, and it took Carver nearly killing Carlos to prompt Alvin and Rebecca to come out of hiding. But let's say that he did manage to break the group with far less force needed; Carver was in the middle of his speech to the group when he asked WHERE the other radio was and not WHO.
If Carver broke the group then they would have also told Carver that Kenny was the last person to have it in his hands, or that it was the last three in the pen (Clem, Kenny, and Mike) that were last seen with the other radio. Carver is a direct kind of guy. If he knew that those three were the last ones to have the radio he would be confronting them demanding the radio or what they did with it.
I think him making noise in the kitchen (or wherever he was getting food from) was what gave away his presence. In the episode when Clem, Mike and Kenny are discussing who should bring Luke the radio, you can see Luke through the door looking for food. There's also a bang when he moves to leave.
What? A plot hole in episode 3? IT CAN'T BE!
I never even realized that was Luke outside of the gate? Shit, no wonder he got caught, lol.
yeah tbh they all make sense to be suspects. but it does make a lil more sense putting sarah there specially after that mysterious talk she had with carver