Do you think Nick is season 2's Ben?
I do not think so.
For one thing, Nick seems to have more common sense than Ben.
When asked to lay down his weapon, he was only willing to do so after Kenny laid his down.
Ben would've just handed it over without question.
Also, Nick is loyal.
That's not something I got from Ben, especially when he left Clementine to the walkers.
Nick, to me, would've stayed and tried to protect her.
Also Nick seems to be more, perhaps much more, people savvy than Ben.
And finally, Nick seems to be more tougher than Ben.
When Kenny insulted Nick in the truck, Nick fought back.
Ben would've just laid down and took it.
Even back at the lodge, when Kenny told him to piss off, Nick fought back.
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Honestly? They've both been known to screw up. But that's where the similarities begin and end.
I think the primary difference between Nick and Ben is that if you placed Nick in that situation with Clementine in 104, where Ben panicked and ran off on her in the thick of it, Nick would have stayed.
No, Nick is different.
Exactly what @SergeantSnookie said.
They've both made stupid mistakes and share low self-esteems because of this (and coupled with other reasons), but Nick would put himself into the line of attack rather than leave Clementine to fend for herself. This can be seen in episode two where he distracts the walkers so she can make a getaway. If Clementine runs towards him, Nick will shove her away and yell at her to go.
No, and I'm starting to dislike seeing every character who's made a mistake labeled as "Season 2's Ben" or "Ben 2.0". Ben and Nick have both suffered extreme losses that broke their characters, Ben with his classmates and Nick with his mom and Pete. (and, in unused files, to help further explain why Ben was so depressed says that the bandits that raided his camp also tortured his classmates to death while he was forced to watch).
Honestly, I don't blame Ben for not telling about the bandits. I don't agree with it at all, no, but his character, coupled with the fact both Lilly and Kenny were making tensions really high, makes it understandable. I highly wish he'd told Lee when asked about the flashlight, but he was probably terrified just to tell anybody at that point. We don't know the terms they made with Ben, or even how they made them. When did they get time to grab him alone? He is definitely not one to go out by himself. And in E4 with the hatchet from the door, Kenny was probably getting furious at the armory--Ben did say Kenny told him to look for something to help, and that was the only thing nearby. There obviously weren't walkers at the door then either, so he probably assumed it was safe. He did come running back ready to clobber in a head or two when he heard Lee arrive. Him running away instead of helping Clementine in E4 was kinda yeah. I can understand it was his flight instincts kicking in, but... yeah. He always felt terrible for all the misfortune he wrought.
With Nick, he almost shoots Clementine because she suddenly talks or gets up and runs and he's paying attention to everyone else, it was merely a jumpy reaction (but he should keep his finger off the trigger). And, it might not even be his fault if you're quiet, because Rebecca will shove him, causing him to shoot by accident. With Matthew, Nick made a bad decision in the heat of the moment. He probably panicked and only saw the gun in Matthew's hands, even if it wasn't pointed at Luke and Clem. I think he figured he'd lose those two if he didn't do something. Adding that onto Pete would have probably broke him.
...Does any of this even make sense? I'm so sorry, I'm so exhausted, this was a terrible time to try to rationalize my thoughts. Either way, they share similarities, but no, I don't think Nick is "Season 2's Ben". Ben is the only Ben. Nick, Luke, and whoever else people point fingers at and say "Ben 2.0" just... no. Characters are allowed to make mistakes without being compared to another. Carlos held a grudge against Clem and was trying to protect his daughter when they first met, but you don't see me calling him Larry 2.0 for that instance.
(Also, the loss thing, I know all the characters have experienced loss and traumatic events, it was mainly just to exemplify these two. People also deal with grief in different ways, so... And, again, sorry if the wording is abysmal, I picked a terrible time for writing this.)
Ben is selfish. Nick is selfless
All of this!! Especially the part where they are their own people. Take a like.
By the way, Ben actually did say that the bandits lied about having his friend and threatened to kill him if Ben didn't give them the supplies. It was too late once Ben realized that they weren't actually holding anybody captive. Even one of the animators(?) backed him up in his own personal analysis of the character stating that Ben felt immense pressure since everybody expected him to act like a man when he was still only a boy.
Nick's reactions to both Clementine and Matthew could also be chalked up to not being able to save his mom from being attacked.
Yeah. Though I don't think Ben is selfish in the sense he's some despicable, morally repulsive human being, he's just someone with very little control over his natural self-preservation instinct.
Nick, meanwhile, would probably do good to actually have at least a little bit of that instinct, somewhere. I'm convinced he doesn't have it at all at this point with the way he bashes zombies over the head with whiskey. :S
Ben runs away and leaves Clem for dead while Nick in a similar situation bashes a zombie with a jar and draws there attention to him to give Clem time to escape so #FuckBen and #SaveNick
That's interesting. I thought it was the other way around, what with Ben always being the one asserting himself as a capable person (it just... never worked out), with Kenny making it clear that he thought Ben was useless at the motel, Chuck grouping him with the kids, and Lee having to inquire during the train ride if Ben will be able to start stepping it up more. Not saying it's wrong (Ben asserting himself could very well be a symptom of the group's expectations), I just never saw much of an inkling that the group was expecting him to act any different than he usually did. But I guess that's why it's a personal interpretation.
Where, or how, did you find out about Ben's classmates being tortured to death in front of him?
As many times as I've played season 1, I do not ever remember him saying that.
Since you say that, I'm beginning to wonder how old Ben was.
From what you've said, I'm almost starting to think Ben may have been in his late teens, instead of early 20's.
Now Nick, is obviously older, more like in his mid to late twenties.
Which may explain his reaction to things are very different in many respects, as opposed to to Ben's.
What do you think?
Like they said, it's in the unused sound files from the game. You can look them up on youtube. "walking dead game unused audio" or something to that effect.
Wonder why it wasnt actually incorporated into the game itself?
It would've done much to explain where Ben was coming from, and what he had already gone through.
Nah, Nick's a bit different
Ben was definitely a teenager. Probably 16 at least, 18 at most.
They're unused lines.
I always thought he was a senior in high school, so maybe 18 or 19. Could be wrong, but it's not much older than that, I'm sure.
It's interesting that that theory on Ben was brought up because it kind of matches Nick more, with Nick being frustrated with Pete always telling him to grow up, to act like a man, which likely contributed to his insecurities. Ben strikes me as someone who didn't have that kind of push or direction in his life to grow up and take on responsibilities, hence his constant desire to help out and be useful which was set up right from the start when we meet him.
Nick also seems more like he's assessed himself to the point where even if he's not entirely sure who he is or sure of his own worth (mainly following Luke's ideas and such), he can actually pinpoint that about himself. "I'm just not... built like that." Whereas Ben kind of overestimates himself a bit but doesn't think of the reality of the threats ahead. "I already am (grown up)...", "I can do just as much as anybody else." Could also be a factor of the age difference.
I don't often analyze these two characters, but it's pretty interesting to do so. Hope I did alright for my first time. :P
That's what I thought to, that Ben was 16.
Which would also explain why he doesn't have much of a beard, but then again, that's not real reliable evidence, as even some grown men are not able to grow good beards.
I myself am very lucky in that area, LOL!
One thing that made me doubt Ben being only 16, and more like 18, is how tall he was.
He was taller than Lee and Kenny.
Come to think of it, after Larry, Ben was the tallest guy in the group.
But that also doesn't prove anything really, as I know a 16 year old who's over 6ft tall, and still growing, while I'm only 5'10ft.
Whenever I see that kid, and others like him, I always ask myself, "What the hell happen to me?"
LOL!
Either way, despite his size, Ben definitely lacked both the mental and physical toughness, not to mention maturity, that both Kenny and Lee possessed.
But then again, both those traits come with age and experience.
They both have the decision making skills of a rock. Both are bland as white rice (at least to me). And both use they're own sad past as a cruch to gain sympathy after royally screwing something up. But that only goes so far.
At least neither one was drinking when they messed up.
You're mistaking these characters for their fans. Nick and Ben have talked about their problems and their anxieties, but I don't recall either of them trying to use them as excuses. I haven't played season 1 in a while so I can't properly vouch for Ben, but Nick's quite a humble character. He's overly sensitive, sure, but he doesn't really say anything that comes off like he's asking for sympathy.
If you want to accuse fans of trying to use their back stories as excuses for their behavior, then so be it. To a degree I'll even agree with you, honestly. But you're accusing them of trying to play the sympathy card off the simple basis that they're characters who are portrayed as struggling with depression/anxiety. That doesn't sit well with me.
I think it's rather unfair to draw similarities and place labels on characters for what they've done, or haven't done, in a comparison to another character. Each character has their flaws and strengths, and that is what makes the game so engaging. So enjoy it... enjoy the fact that this character's fuck up angers you, or that character's attitude pisses you off. That is the beauty of good storytelling.
Very well said.
No. Nick gave his story after he shot Matthew (at least on my story). I did not accept, naturally. And I saw this video where if you save Ben in the clock tower thing, you leave him at the house to keep the boat safe while others go to look for Clem. When you return, the boat's gone, and Ben is just standing on the other side of the door. Of course, Kenny is furious, as I was. Ben "defends" himself by saying he's had a rougher time than most.
All you're really doing is criticizing them for expressing their feelings and talking about things they've struggled with. By that logic, literally everyone who goes to a therapist/psychiatrist is "using their sad past as a crutch to gain sympathy."
Did you ever think that maybe these two guys might not have "screwed up" so much if someone actually had taken the time to sit down and listen from the very start?
No, I'm actually an understanding person. There's a time and place for sympathetic talk. If Ben had told me his sad past on the train after he showed guilt for Carley/Doug's death, I would have understood. Completely. But screw up after screw up doesn't allow me (personally) to garner sympathy toward a character. I know I must come off as cold, but as a plot stand point, I find it lazy.
Granted Ben has had a rough time, what with not knowing fate of his family, his friends dying, etc.
However his suffering was no greater than anyone else's in the game.
So his argument, "I've had it worse than others," doesn't really fly.
Not when you consider what happened to Kenny, Clementine, Lilly, Omid and Christa.
They lost their families and homes too.
However if Ben's left by himself to guard the boat, how's he suppose to fight off a group of around 5?
( Vernon and his support group, or as Kenny called them, " the INVALIDS!" )
Plus Ben is only around 16-18 yrs old, still a kid.
Kids that age are not known for being tough.
They're known for having cocky, "know-it-all attitude, but not mental and physical toughness.
Vernon, Boyd, and Clive on the other hand were grown men.
And if Kenny stays, instead of going with Lee, they beat him up good, and take the boat anyway.
If Kenny, a grown man in his own right, and as tough as he is, was unable to stop Vernon and the others, why should a 16-18 year old kid be expected to be able to do any different?
And, to be fair, he did show genuine remorse over what happened to Kenny's family.
His wanting to die in Crawford proved that!
You're right, in saying there's a time and place for showing sympathy.
Even though it's always prudent to show kindness , understanding, and forgiveness towards those who make mistakes, that can be misplaced when the person at fault, did so with full knowledge of what the consequences could/would be.
I'm not saying Ben caused the harm he did intentionally, just acknowledging a principle.
However, there's also times when people have to step up and take responsibility for their actions/failures, and be willing to except the consequences.
And to do so without complaining about them.
That's a sign of maturity!
Honestly, I think if Ben had lived, I think he would've matured greatly by now, as it's been two years game time.
If shown that people had confidence in him, I believe he would've matured into a fine man.
As it is, he died to quickly.
I was actually sorry to see him die. Especially after I defended him to the group at Crawford, and then saved his life at the Bell tower.
When I thought Kenny died with him, I felt bad that my TWD pal, sacrificed himself like that.
I was so happy when I found him in season 2.
But I digress.
To me Ben was a kid who never seemed like anyone gave a chance to.
That's why I tried to be good to him, to show confidence in him, and which is also why I stood up for him at Crawford.
Very articulately spoken. I agree with some of your points, I truly do. But I still stand by my opinion, I found his development too little too late.
I'd say Sarah is more of the season 2 equivalent but people will always disagree because she's a child and children can't be held to blame right? lol
I see ALOT of similarities between those two as well. But I want to see Sarah make it, I didn't care about Ben.
Yeah, she is closer to him than Nick.
Nick's become kind of a death seeker. At least, it seemed that way in episode 2. Episode 3 was a weird characterization of him so I'm not sure where he stands at this point.
But going off his previous behavior, I feel like his second death will have a Suicide by Cop vibe to it, but, you know... more like 'Walker' instead of 'Cop.' Some kind of reckless self-sacrifice that probably could have been avoided.
Out of curiosity, which of my points do you agree with?
Nick is dead.
;D
But really, no, I don't think he is. Child or not, I would agree that Sarah is the most like Ben out of all the characters we've seen this Season. I personally sympathize quite a bit with Sarah, unfortunately, my Clementine does not.
About guarding the boat from Vernon and his cronies. And Ben having grown to be very mature (if he was alive), amongst other points.
But I still believe he just WASN'T a character I carried much sympathy for.