My Theory
Which is mine, because there's NO WAY anyone else has thought of this yet. No sir. (If it's already been done to death, please let me know. Links would be nice, as I want to see what other people have thought of this idea.)
Sorry guys, I just don't want to read a billion theory posts, but I want to get feed back on my theory that I've been working on since episode three. I have read a few pages back of theory posts, but I couldn't quite buy in to most of them. So, here's what I think:
Faith killed herself in a plot with Nerissa and Lily to expose the black market the Crooked Man was operating to Snow and Bigby.
In episode one, after her encounter with Bigby, Faith realized that he's "not as bad as everyone says he is" and that he might not be as corruptible as Crane and just might be able to take down the Crooked Man. She knew that it would require her life, so she wrote a letter to Lawrence saying, "I'm sorry," that she planned to deliver later. She then went over to Lawrence's apartment to check up on him and found him dead from the gunshot (hence, letter was never sent). She called Lily and Nerissa over, her only two friends, and put together would they would do. (This is why some stuff was moved around in the apartment, such as the bed being folded up. Lawrence wouldn't have done that if he wanted the note to be found.) They could not tell Bigby and Snow directly because of the ribbon, but they could plant clues that would point them in the right direction. This is also why Nerissa checks up on Bigby's progress later, and even takes a risk by going to his office in an attempt to point him in the right direction. She is trying to make sure that their plan works and that her friends' sacrifices were not in vain. Faith killed herself by pulling the ribbon. Lily took Faith's ribbon, tied Faith's ring (which had her family seal) to the ribbon and stuffed it in Faith's mouth. (Because seriously, why on earth would anyone do that if they'd killed her? The Crooked Man and his goons had a good thing going with Crane, why mess it up with this?) Lily then left and planted Faith's head in front of the Woodlands for Snow and Bigby to find. (As a side note, it's possible that what Snow and Bigby thought were needle marks on Lily's legs were actually mostly healed punctures from the Woodlands fence.)
When Crane leaves the Business Office after being informed of the discovery of the head, he goes to the Pudding N Pie to pick up Lily. While there, he tells Vivian that a prostitute's head was found in front of the Woodlands. While Crane is busy with Lily, Vivian tells Georgie, who calls the Tweedles to investigate and find out what happened to one of his girls (they don't know at this point that this is a plot to expose the Crooked Man). Like any intelligent pimp, Georgie protects his merchandise from the Johns and if one of his customers is killing his prostitutes, Georgie wants to stop it. The Tweedles, thanks to Georgie, know which girls were where last night and they quickly figure out which one is missing. Dum goes to the Woodsman's apartment, Faith's last known customer, while Dee goes to Lawerence's place to see if anything happened there. (If you don't go to Lawerence's first, Dee assumes that Lawerence is dead and probably sticks him with the knife or sometihng to make sure, which actually ends up killing Lawerence.)
I believe that Lily killed herself just before Crane used her in his Snow fantasy. Looking at the blood pattern on the bed, it's obvious that Lily knelt down beside the right foot corner while Nerissa pulled the ribbon. It strangled her, which is why Beauty didn't hear anything. During the strangulation she clenched the top of the bed, locking some of the flowers into her fist. Then her head came off spraying the blood onto the bed. I think this because of the hand prints on that corner and the fact there's a pool in the middle of the bed, but no spray on the wall or headboard. The corner has two handprints an equal distance apart, which I think means someone else pulled the ribbon. Nerissa then planted the photo of crane that Faith stole in the closet and took Lily's head and placed it in front of the Woodlands. All of this was to plant more evidence and bring to light Crane's role in the black market.
Crane later showed up for his appointment to find a bloody mess and a decapitated body that looked like Snow. He ran and got the Tweedles or Georgie, who took the body and threw it in the river, laughing at Crane, likely making jokes that whores would rather kill themselves than sleep with him. When Crane got back to the Business Office, Snow was gone because she'd been called by Toad and Bigby was arrested by the NYPD. Crane began to fear at this point that it was Snow herself that was murdered in the room as payback. I don't think Crane was the one who found Tweedledee chained to the lamppost, as he would have let him go, and I don't think it was Bluebeard, as he would have interrogated him elsewhere. They either found Tweedledee together or he was found by Grimble. Crane then goes and gets Bigby and Lily's head from the NYPD using a spell from the Crooked Man's blackmarket. There's no way the 13th floor would have allowed the crafting of a spell like that. They would have just used Sleeping Beauty's curse as they have in the comics. Crane threw her body down the Witching Well to help get rid of evidence.
Crane realized that there was some sort of exposure plot going on he saw his stolen picture being found in the closet by Crane, he just incorrectly thinks the plot is to expose his Snow fantasies and to make it look as though he were the murderer. This is why when he is found at the Pudding and Pie with the Ring of Dispel he says to Nerissa, "I know you know the rest of the plan." He targets Nerissa and not Vivian because he knows Vivian works more directly for the Crooked Man and that Nerissa was friends with Faith and Lily.
All the rest of the story is not to solve the mystery of Faith and Lily's "murders", but is to uncover and deal with the fable black market. It's also to validate Bigby's evolution over the last several centuries from villain and killer to hero and protector.
Anyways, that's likely what happened to Faith and Lily. Also why Nerissa freakss out when Bigby moves to take the ribbon off, because she's seen twice now what happens when you do that. (And, if you believe the magic item exists, she doesn't have it with her.)
phew Glad to have this theory off my chest.
Oh, and King Cole isn't on vacation, he's probably in Bluebeard's basement. Or this was all HIS ruse to lure out the undesirable elements living in Fabletown.
Comments
Actually, it's a very good theory! I think Georgie and Jersey disposed Lily's body, but King Cole is probably not in Bluebeard's basement lol.
Yeah, I was just reading about the behind the door conversation in the Crooked Man's house and that apparently Georgie says "What did I tell you? Stop laughing at me!" I don't remember that, so I'm gonna go back and replay it tonight. Might revise this after.
Yeah, the last bit is just a joke.
King Cole is just off somewhere being detached as usual when he was mayor.
Though there are a couple things that this theory doesn't include, but I don't think they involve the murder, and have more to do with the corruption in Fabletown: Crane's stomach and Bluebeard burning Crane's mantle clock.
Cuz in episode 2 Crane has antacids on his desk and in episode 3 Bloody Mary says to Crane, "Got a tummy ache?" Which implies that maybe there was more than just blackmail binding Crane to the Illusive... I mean... the Crooked Man's schemes.
As for the clock, I have no idea why Bluebeard would burn it. It could just be Bluebeard being Bluebeard. He's evil, but I don't think he'd ever actually try to harm Fabletown, at least not at this point in time.
Then again, there's always Bigby's first rule of detective work: Suspect Jack first.
This is a pretty solid theory. The only plot-hole I can think of is that it wasn't Lily who put Faith's head on the steps. I think those marks were definitely from her drug abuse, especially since Bigby and Snow are so conclusive about that being the reason for the marks. Besides, the fence spikes would have made bigger punctures or even slashed her skin slightly. There was no scabs or blood marks on her legs when her body was found, and her death was presumably only a day after the head was placed, which shouldn't be a long enough time for any scars to heal over. Tiny Tim is seen outside the Business Office with bloodied jeans, with denim being the fabric that was found near Faith's head, so unless that part of the story was rewritten, it was Tim who put the head there. If so, maybe he was another accomplice in this plot, although that's unlikely since he seems so loyal to Crooked Man in Episode 4.
But still, a very good theory here, and sounds legit
I also have a theory about the Tarot cards, but I'm not sure that it should be it's own thread, as the interpretation is somewhat dependent on my theory above.
When you show one of the cards to Magic Mirror he says, "Tarot is a backwards art."
To me, this means the cards have to be interpreted in reverse order:
Hermit,
Moon,
Three of Swords
Ten of Swords,
Tower,
Strength
I also think that the traditional Tarot interpretations don't necessarily apply.
The Hermit is the Crooked Man. The Moon depicts three animals looking at the moon: a wolf, a dog, and a lobster. I think this represents Faith, Lily, and Nerissa. They couldn't use a donkey, because that would be too obvious. They are in the dark and fear for themselves and the future. The three swords is again Faith, Lily, and Nerissa betraying the Crooked Man with their plot.
So far this also fits with traditional Tarot interpretation, as the Crooked Man has wounds that will not heal, no matter how much he wants, and he keeps himself isolated from his thralls. The Moon represents fear and anxiety, and the Three of Swords represents betrayal.
This is followed by the Ten of Swords, which represents the pain and near death that Bigby and Fabletown will experience as a result of the girls' plot AND the ultimate downfall of the Crooked Man. (Especially the near death experience at the hands of Tweedles and Bloody Mary in Episode 3. As Snow tells him in episode 4, he actually was a dead for a few seconds.) The Ten of Swords also represents the idea that those who live by the use of excessive force will die by excessive force. It's safe to say that Bigby has lived as long as he has by use of excessive force, but, if you play as Wolf's Mercy, he's trying to change. The Crooked Man is not trying to change. He has built his black market empire by use of excessive force and at the end of the game he is going to go down in a bloody, violent way, likely by a device of his own making.
This is followed by the Tower, which in traditional Tarot can represent hard times in the near future, but it's followed by Strength. This means that though the collapse of the black market after Bigby takes down the Crooked Man will be a significant blow to the way of life in Fabletown, Fabletown will come out of the crisis stronger and closer as a community.
Yay! I'm legit!
I see what you mean. I'll have to replay the chapter with the line outside the business office to see Tiny Tim. It doesn't make sense to me that he would walk in to the office with bloody jeans during a murder investigation and not have that raise red flags. I would also imagine that Bigby would smell blood on him as he walked by.
Also, I don't see Tim helping with a plot to bring down the Crooked Man, as he has a pretty sweet deal with him. Easy job and he's never been abused.
Fables heal a lot faster than mundies. Just look at Bigby surviving more shotgun shells than those shotguns could possibly have held plus a silver bullet, which is supposed to be insta-death to werewolves, while still recovering from the previous fights. If the wounds were not too deep, they could have healed enough by then to look like needle marks. Also, she's a titan. They're stronger and heal faster than the other fables. It also doesn't make sense to me that Lily could "use up" the veins in her arms. Given how fables heal, she'd have to use A LOT of heroine/whatever to make that happen.
Also, they're not that conclusive about drugs being the cause for the marks. When they first see them Bigby says "Track marks." and Snow asks, "She was using mundy drugs?" "**Looks **that way. Pretty heavily too. **I hear **they only go for the legs if they've used up the veins in their arms."
Snow then makes the point that the glamour should be covering things like track marks and the brooch. Granted, it's a cheap glamour, but it did cover Lily's tattoos. I think the marks are there and the brooch is there because those happened AFTER the application of the glamour.
But I guess that's not as strong... I'll have to think about your comment more and get back to you.
Bloody Mary saying "Got a stomach ache?" can also refer to Snow punching him in the stomach earlier.
Burning Crane's clock really was just to show that Bluebeard is an asshole, no matter where you decide to go. ( He will beat up Flycatcher if you don't go to Dee & Dum's office)
Yeah. Bluebeard's just being a jerk and is looking out for himself. There's no way he's involved with the black market, other than probably some sort of agreement between him and the Crooked Man that the Crooked Man will stay out of Bluebeard's schemes, which probably won't factor into this whole thing at all. He's just there to be the pompous jerk that everyone hates and suspects.
I like the suggestion that the track marks in Lily's legs could instead be puncturing caused by climbing the fence to leave Faith's head at the Woodlands' doorstep, but Bigby seems pretty sure about it being track marks and I don't think the wounds match with the fence, unless they had regenerated almost completely, and I don't think the rags we found match Lily's "Snow" skirt either. Bigby even compares it to the real Snow's skirt.
Bigby doesn't really seem that sure to me. Also, Lily probably would not have gone to the Woodlands glamoured or dressed as Snow. Just sayin'. If the fabric is hers, it's from something else that she was wearing.
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Well I like the idea. It's not that I agree with it 100%. But fact is: The tweedles are trying to get information about Faith's death (running to woody's and Lawrence apartment and searching for clues). So the crooked man or who ever is working for him can't be the culprit.
Btw. I know it's out of topic but: I hate it when talking to crane after discovering his creepiness, Bigby seems to see crane as a culprit no matter what choice you make in the dialogue (After Snow says "I don't think he did it" Bigby's like: "WTF?! Of course he is!". I've never wanted to accuse him of murder. Same goes for Woody (I inprisoned him, but that was because I thought he could gimme more information - not because I thought he's the murder). I don't think it's Bigby's style to accuse people that fast without proper evidence. I think Episode 5 will have a nice plot twist again.
I know! That bothered me too. Bigby in comics (so far) doesn't jump to conclusions. But, since this IS before the comics, maybe this is where he learns that lesson?
Theories are quickly becoming confused with fan fiction writing. This isn't a theory as much as it is a "alternate" story. Clearly, there is too much info to relay in one episode and while your entire story makes sense and was enjoyable to read, its not a theory.
Please explain how this is not a theory.
Clearly, everyone on here has a VERY loose definition of what a theory is. Look, this isn't going to happen. We both know that. It was an enjoyable read and certainly an interesting take, but there is a 0% chance the main point of the OP's theory happens (that Faith killed herself, blah blah blah.) A theory isn't a story, its a plausible way things may go/ have gone. Key word: plausible. There NEEDS to be solid evidence. Someone can have a theory Bigby will die at the end of Episode 5, or someone can have a theory that Snow is actually a "bad guy", but both points are useless unless you can bring in substantial evidence from the game. I guess it comes down to what is substantial. It seems OP is creating a story based off of events instead of actually making an educated guess. I guess we can agree to disagree.
You're fucking brilliant! That one comment under Golthar about the Illusive Man made my lungs collapse. 11/10
"There needs to be solid evidence"
I don't think you grasp the concept of a theory. Or what "educated guesses" are. You do realize that you don't need to have indisputable supporting evidence to make an educated guess, right?
On a side note, Bigby and Snow can't die/be evil. They made it to the comics. It wouldn't make sense. There is evidence stacked against that happening. However, there is no evidence stacked against this. Everything fits, and everything looks plausible from a storytelling perspective. Of course, that doesn't mean it's going to happen. It's a guess at what could happen. An educated guess at what could happen. Jesus Christ.
I may buy into this theory especially if the weight disbursement of fables don't change even if glamoured to be smaller than normal. It would make Lily too heavy for Nerissa to move and need both Jersey and Georgie to rid themselves of the body. How did Crane move the body to the W.Well?
I think this is the theory that is possibly the closest to the real thing. I don't think it's 100% accurate because I am not sure how I feel about Nerissa and Lily disposing the head in such a visable place, knowing that mundies would see it and possibly find out about the Fables. But other than that I think it's a great theory!
Pretty good but not perfect, but overall good job!
Thanks! Yeah, I don't think Crane was at the river anymore, but I still think this is the best theory so far! Especially when you add in the interpretation of the tarot cards from my previous comment.
Thank you, thank you, but... um.... maybe you should get that lung thing checked?
Funnily enough, I just sought out these forums and registered specifically to see if anyone had proposed a theory similar to this one. As soon as I figured out that the murder weapon was the ribbon (or at least, that Bigby believes it is, according to one of the possible dialog branches in Chapter 4), it occurred to me that Faith might have killed herself on purpose in order to expose the Crooked Man. Characters have repeatedly made it clear that the Fabletown Business Office was not handling the real problems unless big things happened to force their attention. A "murder" was a big enough thing to get their attention. Both Faith and Lilly were in positions to feel like they'd already ruined their lives and had nothing left to live for, but could still make a difference with their deaths. Finally, it would clearly mirror the first story arc in the comics, in which Bigby solves a murder by discovering (SPOILER ALERT FOR THE COMICS) that there was no murderer because the victim wasn't murdered at all. The details are much different, but one can see how the talented writers of Wolf Among Us might be inspired to pay homage to that storyline with a murder mystery that has certain parallels.
A few things I thought I'd mention that your theory doesn't take into account, though--and these happen to be the exact things I still have questions about, since I do think that Faith (and possibly Lilly as well) did in fact commit suicide.
First--I don't see how your assessment of the "Lawrence" crime scene could be accurate. First of all, Lawrence didn't actually die until quite a while after Faith--remember, he doesn't die completely until you get there, and in fact if you make the right choices, you can save his life (I did this in my second playthrough). Also, there are several serious problems with Lawrence's suicide scene. First, no clear suicide weapon. Yes, there's a gun and a bloody knife, but the knife is out because of the bullethole, the gunshot wound and the angle indicating Lawrence either shot himself or was shot from very low to the ground. And Bigby makes it clear that the gun is not the gun that killed Lawrence; he tells us it has not been fired in at least a week (I think that's the amount of time). The fact that Lawrence is still breathing AND hasn't healed (he's a Fable, remember) means he was shot recently. I am now very much regretting my decision not to talk to Lawrence later, at Lilly's funeral--did anyone else do this? Maybe he explains the mysteries that still surround what happened to him. At any rate, one thing I am sure of: if there was a meeting between the three girls as you theorize, it didn't happen at Lawrence's. Faith was never there, at least not after Lawrence was shot, because she wouldn't have just let him die. But someone else WAS there, as is made clear by the bed's movement. And it wasn't Tweedle Dee unless he left and came back, because if you choose to visit Lawrence before Toad, you arrive before Dee. So someone was in Lawrence's apartment after he'd been shot and chose not to save him, and that detail HAS to be important.
Secondly, there are two recurring elements that I think must be connected as well, but are not present in your theory. The first is the Headless Horseman. If you're paying attention, you'll notice that the Horseman is depicted at least 3 times (maybe more but I only noticed the three): in a painting and in at least 2 different figurines--you can actually make use of one of them in the fight with Jersey. We've never met the Horseman (as far as we know), but there are all these little subtle hints about him, and his very headlessness points directly at the cause of both Faith and Lilly's deaths. Plus there's the obvious connection between the Horseman and Ichabod Crane. From a storytelling perspective, this seems like too many things to NOT be connected somehow to the murders, but much too subtle to be a red herring. I didn't even notice the different Horseman references until my 2nd playthrough and almost missed it that time, too. It could be just coincidence...but I hope not, because that would suck.
The second subtle recurring element is the red-haired guy--I think his hair is red, although I'm red-green colorblind so it might be brown. Anyway, he shows up very obviously near the beginning of the game, right before Bigby sees Faith's head. Remember the guy who almost bumps into Bigby and Snow in the hallway? What makes him seem significant to me is that if you're paying attention, you'll notice that this character (who never says a single thing), is in the background in other scenes later. On my second playthrough I saw him standing unobtrusively with Grendel and Tiny Tim in line at the Business Office, and much later (Chapter 4 I think), driving the taxi that picks Bigby up. I can't help but think Telltale is throwing him into all the background scenes so that at the end they can show us all those scenes again, this time pointing him out to us, so we can have one of those "Holy crap I never realized that!" moments. Again, this seems much too subtle to be a red herring. Could still be a coincidence, but I hope not. Right now I am thinking that he is either the friend who dropped off the heads (although that makes me wonder why he doesn't just talk to Bigby directly if he knows everything, instead of going along with the plan), or possibly even the actual murderer. Hell, maybe Mr. Redhead is also the Headless Horseman, which would tie up both of the things I mentioned nicely. But then I'm at a loss to explain how it all connects to a suicide.
Just a few pieces of food for thought. Let me know what you think.
Somebody was definitely there at Lawrence's before Bigby or Tweedle-Dee showed up, because the bed is folded up with Lawrence's suicide note inside. Lawrence wouldn't have done that if he wanted it to be found. I still think it was Faith, or Lily or Nerissa, or two of or all three, because of Faith's unmailed letter. When Bigby notes that the gun was fired a week ago, he's basically saying that Lawrence was shot a week ago. (Also note the flies, the comments about the smell, and Lawrence's skin.) Being a Fable, he probably tried multiple methods at once to end his life. I believe someone else mentioned that there are pills in the apartment as well. I think he tried to slit his wrists wit the knife, but that didn't work, so he took blood thinners and then shot himself in an attempt make the wound more damaging. Faith found him in a comatose state, just as Bigby and Snow did later. Also, he WASN'T breathing. (I'm pretty sure I remember that, if you look at Lawrence straight away, Bigby is like, "He's dead," and then you have some time to look at the room before Lawrence wakes up.) That's why Snow and Bigby thought he was dead. Anyways, Faith didn't mail the letter because she believed Lawrence was dead. How else would she know that unless she had been there, or unless Lily or Nerissa had been there?
I don't think we're going to see the headless horseman come into this. His presence in the book is just to remind the player of Ichabod's story, just like the seven dwarves, Red Riding Hood, and Faith's father. Ichabod has a statue of the horseman because it's part of his story and the statue is in the Lucky Pawn because Jack probably stole it. Same thing with Lawrence's knife, it's just there to reiterate that items of importance to the stories of the fables keep finding their way into the hands of the Crooked Man.
The red haired man is just laziness on Telltale's part, or a total red herring. Admittedly his one line in episode one is odd, but a lot of people already suspect that there were massive story changes between episode one and two, and Telltale has admitted that there were some creative disagreements and material had to be scrapped. You may notice that since episode one, the red haired man is used as a bystander a lot and is EVERY taxi driver. He may have been something originally planned as of episode one, but after episode two, he's a non-entity.
Anywho, thanks for the reply and the food for thought! I may nibble on it a little more beyond this later. (This is just my initial reaction.) Let me know if you have any ideas for who BCW is!
Woo! I finally got to join this forum after months of failed verification emails. Well, I might as well join the conversation and throw my guesses and questions out there while i can, in the next eleven hours before the episode releases.
Enjoy my poorly formatted, rushed post, if you can. I'm thinking and writing about a lot, simultaneously. Some of this is notes. Here we go.
Ridiculously humorously, when being driven to the Trip Trap or the Pudding and Pie, the red haired dude is both the cab driver and a man standing in an alleyway.
He's also walking outside of Toad's apartment in the very beginning of the introduction sequence, at the right side of the screen.
In the business office line with Tim and Grendel as well.
I guess the character models are quite expensive to make, as they are all exceptional and unique, minus the mundy cops. so they use red haired dude as a substitute for random men, probably?
Could he be a fable, though? Just out of curiosity?
Now, to CrossAlchemist and other theorists: What about Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum immediately knowing about Bigby knowing about Crane, early in episode three-- Did the Crooked man tap the telephone wires in the Open Arms hotel, or did Beauty or Beast tell the Crooked Man's people? How did the Tweedles figure out about Bigby's discovereies about Crane? Must have been setup, or something...
THIS IS THE BIG ONE: to me, at least.
The elipses when saying something nice to the working girls, Faith and Nerissa, have to be significant somehow. "She'll remember that..."
Is said in the top left corner to the player if Bigby says that Faith's ribbon is beautiful, and if Bigby goes to comfort Nerissa after the ribbon scene. Telltale specifically tells us Faith will remember, in the last scene we ever see her alive in. Should we fear for Nerissa's life being taken?
No scene is n the game for no reason. Including the Nerissa conversation scene... emphasis on losing friends.
No options yet to pick suicide as the cause, to prevent players from reaching this theory, keeping it surprising or unknown.
Why don't you think Crane was at the river? Stop laughing!" is the best and most important detail we get from the Toad junior conversation, and it seems to only make sense with Crane being there. Actually, it could have been Georgie tiring of hearing the Tweedles joke about a "dead whore" which is what Dee said to Bigby at Lilly's funeral, to Holly's face.
Your theory works with our favorite crime noire trope: the "killer introduced in opening sequence... Faith's killer is herself...
um, so, why was Bluebeard burning stuff again?
But, dude, Lilly had been missing for some time before that, right? Does that factor in? Grendel and Holly mention that no one had seen her for at least a week. Was Lilly with Faith and Nerissa developing the plan? Did Bigby meet Faith mere hours before she killed herself? Seems like a short amount of time to decide to go through with it, but Faith does say "I'll swing by your apartment.": which is the place that her head was delivered to.
She seems pretty confident that she'll "see you around, Wolf."
One silly idea that I played with in my head is that the Snow White in the beginning of episode one is actually the glamoured Lily, as Snow White has no explained reason for being awake and outside that early, while Lilly would have a reason: to get Bigby's attention.
That's more of me writing interesting hypotheticals in my head, though.
Hope this was legible and understandable, if not, message me later, before or after episode five, hopefu\lly we'll all talk.
LOL. I would replay it to get a timeline together, but I have no time! The last episode is out tomorrow. However, things seem to happen pretty quickly.
Lily hadn't been missing for a week, Holly and Gren just hadn't seen her for a week. We know that she was still alive and her whereabouts were known to a few individuals because of the appointments she made in her diary and in Georgie's diary. We also know that the Woodsman had made an appointment with her, but she was not able to make it (likely due to a more lucrative appointment with Crane), so she asked Faith to cover for her. (There's a note from her to Faith asking her to cover her, kinda last minute and saying that she needed to talk to her about the appointment first, in at the Pudding and Pie.)
Faith did die only a few hours after meeting Bigby. By my theory, she and Lily had already decided to kill themselves to expose the Crooked Man before this meeting, that was why she had written the "I'm sorry" letter to Lawrence and why Lily was avoiding Holly and Gren.
I kinda like your last idea, though I don't think it's what happened. This is all I can post right now, I have to get back to work....
Hmmm, I didn't realize that the redhead was two different people in the same scene. That kills my "he's significant" theory--if he's in two different places at once, then he really is just a stand-in model. Bummer.
As for the horseman statue--it hadn't occurred to me that it might be the same statue. Still, it seems to me that with all the Horseman references and Ichabod Crane's presence in the story, it would almost be stupid not to somehow tie the headless girls in to the Headless Horseman legend. I mean, from a writer's perspective, it's just so...THERE.
Regarding Lawrence: I still don't think Faith could have been there. First of all, I don't think Lawrence shot himself a full week ago. That doesn't make sense. He would have either healed or died by now. Fables heal much faster than mortals, but they're not immortal and when they heal they HEAL, they don't stay in a wounded state for a week and then suddenly start breathing. No, I think Lawrence had only recently shot himself. But even if it was before Faith's death, it seems to me that if she had shown up, she would have discovered he was still alive (just as Bigby and Snow do after only a few moments) and tried to help him, rather than just leaving him like that. The bed is clear evidence that someone was there, yes, but I don't see how it could be Faith. It would have to be someone who didn't care whether Lawrence lived or died. Obvious candidates would be anyone on the Crooked Man's team.
Finally, something I forgot to mention before: the suicide theory doesn't answer the question of what the Crooked Man is still trying to recover. There is ample evidence throughout the game that the Crooked Man wants something that was in the possession of either Faith or Lilly. The Tweedles have been attempting to recover that item. We still have no idea what it is (unless I missed something), but it must tie into this whole thing somehow.
Killabyte: Oh man, I want so bad for that to be true, but I don't see how it could be. The Snow that we see throughout the entire game is always working on the case, and the case began with the discovery of Faith's head. And the Snow Bigby left at the Trip Trap HAS to be the real Snow, because after Lilly's death, Snow references that scene. So if there was a switch, it had to be during episode 1, but all of Snow's actions and lines in episode 1 rely on her having discovered the head at the beginning. So while that would be an awesome, awesome story twist, I don't see how it could be pulled off without creating a lot of contuinity errors.
Can't wait to find out all the answers tomorrow! Hopefully Telltale's rewrites and changes won't affect contuinity and it will all make sense--I'm going to be annoyed if the explanations are unsatisfactory or cause plot holes.
At any rate, I'm happy to find that I'm not the only person with the "suicide-expose" theory. It will be interesting to see if we are right.
The Tweedles are trying to recover the photo of Crane and Lily. If you go to the Tweedles office first instead of Crane's apartment or the Trip Trap, you learn this by looking in the filing cabinet.
I just redid Lawrence's apartment and Snow and Bigby DEFINITY are saying he was sitting there for almost a week. Bigby also notes that there are two sets of blood: one dry, being Lawrence's, and one that's still sticky. Given the state of Lawrence's body, and the fact that blood on his wounds had dried, he'd definitely been there for a while. The gun also had not been fired recently, but the caliber of the bullet in the wall and the casing on the floor match the gun. The hole, though at an odd angle, goes through Lawrence, the chair, and into the wall. All this means that Lawrence's suicide attempt was about a week ago.
This also means that, if Lawrence had been there for a week and his blood was dry, who's blood is that which is by the bed and still sticky?
All that said though, in a few hours, all the theories will probably mean nothing.
Hmmm, in that case more evidence is lent to your theory that Faith's suicide took place at Lawrence's place--it would explain the blood. If Lawrence really was shot a week ago, that seems like really bad writing on Telltale's part to me. It shouldn't take him that long to die. We can't blame it on his natural Fable resilience, either, because that would result in him actually healing, not just taking longer to die. So...I don't know, if that's really the way it is than I feel like Telltale dropped the ball.
I didn't notice that about the photograph--must have missed it or forgotten about it. I guess that makes sense; at the time it was in the Crooked Man's best interest to keep Crane in power, and that meant not letting the photo fall into Bigby's hands.
Pins and needles, folks...pins and needles...
I think the sleeping pills had a part to play in his healing being somewhat suspended.
Yeah, pin and needles for SURE. I've played through all four episodes five times now (and a few scenes/episodes more than that), and I still notice more stuff each time.
My theory isn't 100%, no where near, but I am certain that Faith, Lily, and Nerissa were working together in a suicide plot to expose the Crooked Man to Bigby and Snow.
Just curious, did you read my tarot comment above? I have a different way of interpreting the tarot cards and I feel it further supports the suicide plot theory.
Sigh. Unfortunately, my internet just went down (this is through my mobile).
I called the techs and they're saying it's not just me and that it's gonna take a few hours. I may not get to play the finale until tomorrow evening.
Which means I'll have to avoid the forums for a bit.
Sigh. I am rather put out.
Wel, episode five comes in mere minutes. Maybe we'll finally see the scene in which Toad says "Bigby, is that really you?" which was previewed for epsiodes two and three, but never in the episodes...
The episode is out.all I'll say is you're wrong
Indeed we are. Still, I thought it was a very good theory and made sense from a creative perspective. But I like the actual explanation and ending just as much. Definitely a satisfying conclusion.
Indeed. I didn't see Georgie coming, but at least the theory was accurate in that this started as a plan by Faith, Lily, and Nerissa, that they betrayed the Crooked Man, and that the heads and other evidence were placed specifically to try to help Bigby discover the black market.
Also, it still fits with the tarot cards, which means that this was the ending that Telltale planned from the beginning, which makes me happy.
They didn't edit the ending to compromise their artistic vision or to make fan theories in accurate, which means they really did have us guessing the entire time.
It does still leave a lot of unanswered questions though, such as who was in Lawrence's apartment and folded up the bed before Bigby/Dee arrived? What was it that Bigby realized at the end? Who was "BCW"? What happened to Dee and Dum and Jersey Devil? Did Bloody Mary really die, or was that one of the mirror clones?
I think they've left more than enough open for there to be a second season that can still be independent of the comics. Here's hoping.
Aaaaaaand it never showed up.
Yeah, I definitely found the ending satisfying. It's actually kind of cool that the murderer--well, not the ultimate person responsible, but the guy who actually committed the deed--is one of the people you can suspect in Episode 1. In fact, Georgie was suspected more than any other candidate, if the survey thing in that first episode is to be believed.
I've been wondering about the Lawrence thing, too. I'd really like to know who was there. What do you mean by "BCW"? That acronym looks vaguely familiar to me but I can't remember why.
And yeah, the "Bigby's realization" thing was kind of cool. There's several possibilities, all of which have problems with them. Obviously Telltale is implying that the woman who looks like Nerissa at the end and the woman who looked like Faith at the beginning are the same woman--but which woman is that, when did the appearance change, and why? All answers I've seen so far have some serious flaws, including my own theory. Gonna go mosey on over to that thread now and see what people have said about that now...