Lmao... there IS an age restriction on playing video games actually... But my point my had to do with your "a man can get lonely in the zombie apocalypse" comment.
That's "gender politics" for you. If a woman shows ANY negative characteristics in any form of media, they'll be demonized by that fanbase. … moreCause somewhere along the line, people decided that women should be sex objects or romantic interests for the men.
That's "gender politics" for you. If a woman shows ANY negative characteristics in any form of media, they'll be demonized by that fanbase. … moreCause somewhere along the line, people decided that women should be sex objects or romantic interests for the men.
First of all, I want to say while that Lilly is my favourite character, I don't approve of her killing Carley/Doug. All murder is wrong. However she didn't kill Carley/Doug in cold blood. When the term murdered in cold blood is used, it normally means that the murder was planned and/or committed without emotion. Lilly definitely didn't plan to kill Doug, and doesn't show any signs of wanting to kill Carley up until the moment after she glares at Carley after she tells her off. She's also very emotional about it (hate towards Carley, anger towards Ben, guilt towards Doug) she's nearly brought to tears afterwards. That isn't planned murder with no emotion. That is not cold blooded killing.
What about Lee? He murdered someone who was having an affair with his wife, an act of rage and betrayal maybe but it is still murder and occurred before the apocalypse. Yet no one shows hate towards Lee.
Kenny is the first person to suggest murder, and kills Larry right in front of Lilly. It may have been necessary for survival but it was wrong. And then when Lilly murders Carley/Doug, Kenny demands they leave her because she's a murderer! That act alone says he's a hypocrite when he was the one who murdered Larry and later one, hints to Lee that he should drop Ben.
Many more people have murdered so why do people seem to focus their hate on Lilly, but not anyone else? The person who was murdered shouldn't affect how you feel about the murder. So if you're going to hate Lilly for murdering Carley/Doug, then why make excuses for Kenny and Lee?
I'm not making excuses for Lilly, she shouldn't have shot Carley/Doug but she is not a bad or evil person. Just a broken woman who had everything torn away from her, no emotional comfort what so ever and was pushed too far.
Murder is wrong no matter what, even if it's a person you don't like and for "good" reasons. So if people hate Lilly for her crimes, then why so they not hate Kenny?
So you say that its the same whether you murder someone for a "Protect the group situation" or a pessimistic reason?Okay then tell me about Lee,you remember him,right?He is that black guy that YOU'VE BEEN PLAYING THE WHOLE FIRST DAMN SEASON!He had killed the senator for having sex with his wife (correct me if I'm wrong). Don't throw me those "it was in the heat of the moment" bs...He searched for vengeance and thats what Lilly did too!I'm not handing out sorries here but in Season 1 Episode 2 I told everyone that I was headed to jail the first day of the Apocalypse.In my opinion,the "senator" isn't a reason to hate or dislike Lee because he wasn't even an important role in the game!On the side,Lilly killed Carley that could have been important to the group.Her saying "I did it to help the group"doesn't fix what she had done!
help her give CPR to Larry
No,I didn't try to help Larry because there are some reasons out there in the Apocalypse!As said by Carlos in Season 2 "After 10 Hours the 'victim' has fever and then he turns to a zombie"!We could have been in that cage for those many hours,possibly causing Clementine's and everyone else's death because they didn't have anything on them!I know that it was very bad to kill someone but I would prefer only one's death than everyone's.
Oh and as for the dislikes and rants from Lilly fans...Hit me with what you've got,I can take it and prove you wrong,so..come on!
Yes, I must admit even though Kenny has a more "important" role later on in the game and how he affects Season 2 as well, I always side with… more Lilly in the arguments, help her give CPR to Larry and take her with me on the RV because no one deserves to watch their only family member die in front of their eyes like that. Also, if you were on Lilly's side, then reveal your past to her and then go and tell Carley, I'm sure sometimes Carley will say "Lee is all she's got left" or something along those lines which makes me feel even more sorry for her. I still don't approve of her killing Carley but I don't hold a grudge and would like to see her return in Season 2
They apparently did a version where they killed him off but the writers were conflicted on it and decided to leave it open-ended like that so they could bring him back if they wanted to. It wasn't' to please fans, otherwise they would've killed him off and brought him back after fan demand. When I first played No Time Left, I knew immediately that they had future plans for Kenny.
Christa and Omid didn't really see the majority of Lee's decision making. Kenny has though.
I would find it weird if both Kenny and Lilly showed up. If it was one or the other that would be all right but having every character from season 1 make an appearance would feel weird and contrived.
The fact that there was death audio at all kinda proves that his story was deemed done, but they apparently changed their minds due to reaso… morens of pleasing the fanbase. I didn't mean that TellTale decided at the last possible second to bring him back, just that they can undo what seems like an obvious death scene whenever they want, which is what they did. Anyway, this also has nothing to do with my main point, that lack of death audio or not, his story was done. It didn't need a continuation.
Kenny was brought back for the fans and nothing more. There doesn't need to be a "main link" to season 1 to begin with, but if there had to be, then Omid and Christa sufficed just fine. Kenny hasn't brought anything to the table currently other than a familiar face, which, again, was not needed to begin with. Lilly would have served just fine in the exact same position, given how little Kenny's return has truly impacted anything in the plot (sure, he … [view original content]
Lmao... there IS an age restriction on playing video games actually... But my point my had to do with your "a man can get lonely in the zombie apocalypse" comment.
What I’m saying is that the reason Lilly killed someone wasn’t because she’s an evil person. She killed someone in a fit of insane paranoia, and the reason she got that way was because of the specific experience she suffered. The fact that trusted group members “betrayed” is precisely why she became so paranoid. How tragic their experiences are is irrelevant, I was discussing why Lilly’s specific situation led her to do what she did.
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It's not like some kind of math equation, where the severity of a tragedy is directly proportional to how unhinged a person becomes as a result of it. You have to take the specific situation and the specific factors and consequences into account, instead of just saying "Oh, this person suffered a tragedy and didn't kill someone. Therefore, if another person suffers a tragedy that is subjectively less serious than the aforementioned tragedy, said other person has no reason to kill someone other than being naturally being evil!"
So are you telling me she is that weak that she can't handle someone that tells her off? Out of all the people to kill, she chose the one person who was like(and I said) kind and not the one that argues with her on a daily basis. If she had killed Kenny or Lee or even Katjaa to get back at Kenny then we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's not a math question, that's how life works, there's always someone, somewhere that has it just as bad as you do. The fact she kill someone when there are others who caused her pain(St Johns, Kenny or Lee) and then tried justifying it afterwards makes her look like an immoral monster.
You're making Lilly out to be a special case that needs special treatment. How is Lilly any different from anybody else that lost a family member? Did she lose her morals? Let's just say this was real life scenario, a bully(who is Lilly in this case) gets up in a girls face and starts hassling her, the girl tells her off and the bully shoots and kills her, what are you gonna tell the girls family? "Oh the bully is not a bad person, she just lost her father", then they'll ask "WTF did have to do with her?", you think that'll sit well with the judge(if he's not a sexist) or jury for that matter? They'll say that they also lost a father but apparently Lilly is one of a kind.
“We almost didn’t make it out of there because of this asshole. Should’ve left him when we had the chance.” -glares at Lee
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“Lee should’ve left you in Crawford!”
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“I’ll see you when you’re done.” – Kenny, as Lee is struggling to hold Ben. I find it hard to believe Kenny meant ‘I’ll see you once you’ve pulled Ben up’, otherwise he would’ve helped pull him up.
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"Stop wishing I was dead!" - Ben.
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Let’s get this out of the way, Kenny wanted Ben dead, no question. And Kenny had not right to order Lee to kill Ben for what he did, just as Lilly had no right to murder Carley. Ben made a huge mistake, but it did not warrant a death wish. Worst of all is how Kenny uses Ben as an excuse to escape his own responsibility for his family’s death, which is what I find so much more disgusting than anything Lilly did.
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And you’re absolutely right! They were doing the same thing! They both did horrible, disgusting things by taking out the blame on someone else! What I’m saying is that we have to consider why regular people would do something like that. Neither Kenny nor Lilly did what they did purely because they’re horrible people.
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And would it have been so hard to take his family with him to the RV? We see firsthand in episode 1 that Kenny is more than capable of running away with his family in dangerous situations. Could he really not have spared a second to grab Kat and Duck’s hands and lead them to safety? His irresponsibility and carelessness is to blame here. And it was all Kat’s fault for killing herself? Lee can tell Kenny multiple times that his wife needs some goddamn support, and Kenny basically just tells him “shut up! She’s fine!” It was Kenny’s responsibility to help Kat when she needed it the most, and though it was ultimately her decision to kill herself, Kenny stood by and did absolutely nothing for her but ignore or snap at her. And he seriously has the audacity to push 100% of the blame on Ben? And Kenny knew Ben’s intentions, he says right in the classroom that he was slipping them supplies to keep the bandits of their backs. And he doesn’t hold it against Lee if he saves Ben? Not true…
There is no denying that Kenny wanted Ben dead and took advantage of the situation when Ben gave up hope. Did Kenny tell Lee "Drop him or else", in this case Kenny had a reason while Lilly didn't, like I said, does he make an attempt on Ben's life. And really? I mean really? In what world is wanting someone dead who you believe was responsible for your family's demise more worse than murdering an innocent person in cold blood for no reason?
You're acting like Kenny picked on Ben for no reason as you are comparing him to how he treats Ben to a woman that killed an innocent person who did "nothing" to her. Did Kenny start pointing the fingers at anybody or hassling others before Ben revealed that he was the one dealing with the bandits? Like I said, Kenny reacted as anybody would, did you expect him to start rubbing Ben's shoulder and telling him "oh poor you, making deals behind our backs and not giving us the heads up which would've prevented my family's death, poor you"? At the end of the day, Kenny's crime was being a dick to Ben which is understandable, nothing more whereas Lilly crossed the line with no reason. At the end of the day, Kenny and Lilly's actions are not comparable, that's like saying people that give reckless drivers a hard time for killing someone they care about in a drunk driving accident to murderers that kill with intent.
If you want to blame Kenny's carelessness for his family's demise then fair enough, if that's how you see it then I'm not gonna argue with you their, all I can say is the bandit attack was out of the blue and Kenny's first instinct was to start the getaway vehicle. And yes it was Kat's decision to end her own life, she and Kenny both accepted that Duck is as good as dead, what more could he have done? Kat wanted to put Duck and wanted his blessing and she got it but chose to off herself instead of ending her sons pain & suffering, I'm sure even Lee couldn't predict that outcome. And he did not push 100% blame on Ben? Ben did most of it, why does Ben blame himself again? why was the guilt eating him up? why did he start kissing Kenny's ass all of a sudden? Because he knew he played a part in his family's deaths, even in the classroom, Ben brought up Duck & Katjaa's name when he was fessing up. And tell me, how does he treat Lee if he saved Ben? does he treat him the same way like in the version where he dropped Ben?
I find it funny that you're more critical with Kenny and him giving Ben a hard time than Lilly murdering someone for no reason. Did Kenny not lose a family hours earlier when he was going off on Ben? He suffered a tragic loss too didn't he? But yet you're making excuses for Lilly who committed an immoral & cold hearted act! If it's Kenny fault that his family are dead then surely Lilly's got to take some of the blame for Larry's death, she knew he had a bad heart but doesn't do much to calm him down especially in the meat locker.
Once again, it’s very likely that Larry has been bullying her to do things his way for years before the apocalypse. She didn’t stand there and do nothing, the fact that she’d even stick up for Duck at all at least deserves notice. Hell, she did more to defend Duck than Glenn, Carley and Doug combined!
So she's not brave as you make her out to be than. She said one line and kept quiet throughout the whole argument. She's the leader is she not, she should be diffusing the situation because there are zombies just outside but instead does nothing and lets her dad with a bad heart start a fight with strangers. Since Glenn & Carley saved Duck in the first place, I'll let them off, besides, Carley did tell people to calm down.
Once again, Lilly already had Lee on his side, long before she ever brought up Clem. And she also never brings up Clem during the RV argument as a means to push Lee either. And you can’t compare Lilly to Troy. Lilly never beat Clem senseless for no reason. The worst she ever did to her was leave her when she took the RV, which, again, was not an act of malice towards the girl.
She was bringing Lee up when she was pointing fingers in the RV. She wanted him to join her in hassling Carley/Ben.You're right, Troy can't be compared with Lilly because he doesn't pretend to care "Hey I care about you, I got your back", only to leave you to die out on the road for doing nothing. Reason why I brought Troy up is because even though he saved Clem, he smacks her later on and people consider him a piece of shit for it but when Lilly leaves a little girl to die, some of these same people would say "no, no, no, you got it all wrong, she's a caring person". Leaving a little girl to die is just as bad and if not, worse then smacking her.
Already replied to the “similar tragedies” topic above. If she was a selfish coward, she wouldn’t have jumped in to save Lee from the St.Johns. She wouldn’t have protected Clem while Lee went to save Katjaa. She wouldn’t have saved the group from gunpoint when she had the opportunity to grab her shit and just leave them.
What about the version where she would do nothing and lets you die. All she did was watch Clem for a couple of minutes, I wouldn't call that protecting her when there was no danger at that moment to protect her from. And like I asked, where could she go if she left them? who would go on supply runs?, who would she boss around? Lilly needed the group more than they needed her. She robbed and left a group that consisted of two kids to die? what more do you need to shows how much of a selfish coward she is? You said it yourself that it was a selfish act committed by a scared woman, are you gonna change your mind and call it a selfless heroics? How about her ratting you out and telling others that you're a convicted killer just to drag you down, yeah she's real noble isn't she.
Lilly never said that they had no supplies left. She does say “we just lost everything” but implied to be hyperbole for “we just lost the motor inn.” Besides, are you saying Banang doesn’t count as supplies :P
And my point is that from Lilly’s perspective, Kenny was a brutal and unforgiving pragmatist by then. Killing Larry, abandoning the girl… these actions are all reasons for Lilly to expect no mercy from him if she stuck around. And the reason he suggested leaving her wasn’t to spare her, it was so she would die out in the woods alone without Kenny having to get his hands dirty. Lee says so himself “Leaving her out on the side of the road… is the same as murder”. And Lilly pleaded and looked hella scared to me. “She couldn’t be trusted, Lee, please…”
I didn't notice the banang, it's not like the game gave you option to explore my surroundings at that point. When she said they lost "everything", you can't believe that she was only talking about the motel. Did Lilly consider the banang as a supply considering she was acting like they lost everything as she said.
Of course she was scared, anyone would be if they were gonna be left out in the dark with zombies and bandits running around and she looked sad because she knew she lost the control of the group and knows she screwed, not because of what she did as she didn't look sad or scared when she gunned down an unarmed woman. Whether you see what Kenny's intention was, leaving her out is the only humane punishment, that's different from killing someone, you're just leaving her to fend for herself whereas she never gave Carley a chance but straight up took her life. If you release an animal into the wild, does that mean your killing it? No, Lilly acts tough so lets see how she does by herself.
Not gonna go over this again. What the group was actually going to do doesn’t matter. I pointed out the reasons why Lilly was paranoid about sticking around the group and, as a result, why she escaped and left them. Basically, her reasons for abandoning them were not just “Oh, I’m a selfish bitch so I’m gonna leave them because I can, lol.”
What you pointed out is that she had it in her crazy little head that the group was gonna punish her. I pointed out why that seems unlikely and then so on. “Oh, I’m a selfish bitch so I’m gonna leave them because I can, lol” I kind of picked up that vibe from her, surely it can't be "I really care about which is why I'm leaving you out here to die after you were kind enough to bring me along after the crime I committed, because that's what friends do, you'll thank me someday".
Not sure what you’re point is here. The fact that Lilly shut herself off in her room is exactly what I hated. The fact that the player was given so few options to confront her about her trauma is exactly what I was criticizing and wished we could've done differently. Where was my [Console Lilly] button, Telltale!?
You were saying all Kenny did was moping for ages(considering it's only been a day) and wanting to kill Ben as if Lilly didn't do the same either. Kenny didn't have any consoling or talk about it much but he wasn't a problem like Lilly was. My point is that consoling wouldn't have prevented the stunt she pulled.
Honestly, I don’t care if she returns as a lunatic, or a remorseful hero, or whatever. I just want her story to be satisfyingly concluded. And Lilly left Lee to die? Going back to your point about Kenny suggesting abandoning her. If Kenny leaving Lilly by the road is mercy, why is Lilly leaving Lee considered as leaving him to die? Kinda contradictory.
So Lee, Clementine, Katjaa, Duck & Ben needed to punished for doing what exactly compared to Lilly who murdered an innocent person? You did say she believed Kenny would kill her when he suggested leaving her, there's two ways they would've punished her, leaving her or killing her, which want do you think Lilly would prefer? The RV stunt, what did the rest of the group do to warrant that punishment after they were kind enough to bring her along? I want her to comeback as herself and I want Clementine to not be nice to her otherwise she'd be stabbing Lee, Ben, Katjaa & Duck in the back by being all friendly with her.
And you really can’t compare Lilly with those other characters. People like the St. Johns and bandits knew exactly what they were doing, they’d been killing and hurting people for ages, knew exactly what they were doing, and had no qualms about it. Most importantly, they seemed completely sane while doing so, in the sense that they were completely aware of what they were doing an not under any sort of pressure or trauma whatsoever.
You keep insisting that Lilly was completely remorseless, but look at her reaction to killing Doug. Of course, this is determinant, but I figured since you brought up determinant scenes as evidence, I’d do the same. And please don’t say the fact that her exact quote was “I didn’t mean to. It wasn’t suppose to be him” means she didn’t actually feel remorse, just like how you seem to believe Kenny didn’t want Ben dead simply because he never overtly said “I want you dead, Ben.” Look at her tone, her expressions, her face. She was clearly horrified when she killed Doug. Not to mention, she outright says “I’m sorry Lee. I really am.” If that’s not remorse, I’m not sure what is.
And no, I wouldn’t say Carver’s murders were heat of the moment. Reggie, he clearly killed after weeks of entertaining the idea, finally acting on those thoughts when given the excuse. Walter, he killed after his own men were shot, and realized he’d need to prove to their assailant that he meant business and wasn’t afraid to kill either; meditated strategy in other words, not heat of the moment murder.
Off topic, but it's nice to have a rational discussion like this. I was afraid talking about controversial characters like Lilly and Kenny would've devolved into a flame war or something...
You're telling me she didn't know what she was doing when she shot a bullet at a persons face, did she think they would get back up and be fine? Didn't the St Johns lose a father as well? Lilly didn't exactly have any qualms about what she did either.
What about killing Carley and stealing the RV after murdering Doug/Carley, she didn't seem like she regretted it, her face screamed "I don't give a fuck". I never once stated Kenny didn't want Ben dead, just that he never crossed the line and killing him. Yeah she looked horrified when she killed Doug because he wasn't the intended target but she soon got over it pretty quickly when she stole the RV. I apologize LOL, I must not have heard when she said "sorry", that makes everything better that she's sorry for leaving me and the others to die when we were so kind to bring her along and she said that with the same expression when she killed Carley, the "I don't give a fuck" look. You really believe that she's a good person which begs the question of what kind of people do you know, if you think what Lilly did is a sign of normal friend behavior and have friends like that then I all I can say is watch your back and never let your guard down.
Carver could've had Reggie killed but instead had his life saved, even Reggie said himself that Carver could've killed him when he had the chance and when Reggie did a bad job, Carver went all loony. But if that's what you think, fair enough. But one thing you said that Carver acted on those thoughts when given the excuse, seemed Lilly did the same with the traitor excuse, it seems both are not all that different.
1 or 2 Trusted group members betrayed her and "murdered" her father. Just two people and she decided to punish the one person that never d… moreid anything to her or anybody else for that matter. She wouldn't kill the two cannibals that cause her dads death, she wouldn't kill the two guys that "kill" her dad but she would be happy to kill an innocent person that doesn't cause problems for her or the group, this here where it makes no sense. And like I said other characters suffered something similar but they don't kill people for nothing especially ones they know in their own group. Abraham Ford & Michonne, Lilly's tragedy is nothing compared to theirs but they help people and didn't need any consoling and Michonne was a lawyer.
What I’m saying is that the reason Lilly killed someone wasn’t because she’s an evil person. She killed someone in a fit of insane paranoia, and the reason she got that way was because of the specific experien… [view original content]
Anybody, good or bad, would be upset if someone was taking the supplies, she needed the supplies as well. Still doesn't change the fact that she killed a person out of nothing and decides to punish the group by taking their one transport vehicle when they were kind enough to bring her along. Is that the sign of a caring person?
She just lost it with stress...she even mentioned the stolen goods within the camp...she didn't have to say anything...she mentioned this b… moreecause she cared about her group...
With all these stress happening from the camp...i could understand why she lost it...
Yeah Lilly haters are sexist dicks, I'm sure the hate she gets has nothing to do with her murdering a popular likeable character. If anything, if it was the other way round and she was a man, she wouldn't be getting this much support and backing from people. My hate for Lilly has nothing to do with her gender.
I'm just gonna go ahead and put this out there right now: if Lilly was a guy, most people here would be singing a different tune. There woul… mored be a lot more folks finding ways to excuse "his" awful behavior.
I have no interest in defending her actions--I like Lilly, but I won't defend what she did--but there's no doubt in my mind that the hate against her has a lot to do with her gender. Just look at how quick people are to defend characters like Lee, Kenny, and Nick (who I all like, so don't think I'm throwing them under the bus here, just making a comparison), whereas with Lilly it's just "Fuck that bitch she killed my waifu." That's an obnoxious way to view both Lilly and Carley.
Yeah Lilly haters are sexist dicks, I'm sure the hate she gets has nothing to do with her murdering a popular likeable character. If anythin… moreg, if it was the other way round and she was a man, she wouldn't be getting this much support and backing from people. My hate for Lilly has nothing to do with her gender.
Anybody, good or bad, would be upset if someone was taking the supplies, she needed the supplies as well. Still doesn't change the fact that… more she killed a person out of nothing and decides to punish the group by taking their one transport vehicle when they were kind enough to bring her along. Is that the sign of a caring person?
Ben indirectly killed Katjaa & Duck. Unless Ben hypnotized Lilly otherwise at the end of the day, it was her that made the decision to pull the trigger and ended someone's life and it was her that made the decision to rob her own group.
First of all, I want to say while that Lilly is my favourite character, I don't approve of her killing Carley/Doug. All murder is wrong. How… moreever she didn't kill Carley/Doug in cold blood. When the term murdered in cold blood is used, it normally means that the murder was planned and/or committed without emotion. Lilly definitely didn't plan to kill Doug, and doesn't show any signs of wanting to kill Carley up until the moment after she glares at Carley after she tells her off. She's also very emotional about it (hate towards Carley, anger towards Ben, guilt towards Doug) she's nearly brought to tears afterwards. That isn't planned murder with no emotion. That is not cold blooded killing.
What about Lee? He murdered someone who was having an affair with his wife, an act of rage and betrayal maybe but it is still murder and occurred before the apocalypse. Yet no one shows hate towards Lee.
Kenny is the first person to suggest murder, and k… [view original content]
Yes, I agree. Kenny wants to kill Larry and Beatrice, wants Lee to drop Ben and if you don't side with Kenny he won't help Lee on at least two occasions (in the barn with Danny & in the drug store getting supplies)
Jeez, sorry for the late reply. To be fair, you didn’t reply to my post for four days and I kind of got distracted from this forum because I started summer school the same week. I think we’re beating a dead horse by this point (and I have tons of homework…) so I’ll try to make this quick.
I am not in any way trying to justify or make excuses for what Lilly did. I definitely don’t agree or condone what she did, because what she did was horrible. Basically the one point I’ve been trying to get across is that I and other players understand why she did what she did. She murdered someone because she was crazy and she stole the RV because she was a paranoid wreck, not because she is a monster who is pure evil and gets off on causing misery and death.
It’s up to the individual to decide whether or not this is enough to warrant forgiveness and pity. The fact that I try to understand why Lilly snapped for reasons outside of “I just happen to be an evil monster” doesn’t actually mean I think she’s some kind of saint, as you seem to believe I think. It’s completely fine to hate her, because she’s not a very likable character (interesting, but not exactly likable), and what she did was disgusting and I understand why people refuse to forgive her. And I also hope you can at least kinda sorta see why some people don’t consider her a one-dimensional villain who makes it her life’s purpose to shoot people in the head and steal automobiles.
And yes, I still think Kenny wanting Ben dead was disgusting. We can argue just exactly how much Kenny was responsible for his family’s death until the cows come home, but it is undeniable that Kenny’s actions played a large role in said deaths. Kenny himself admits as much if you saved Ben. “I could have done more. I could’ve been a better father, a better husband…”And for Kenny to act like Ben was the sole reason behind those deaths is incredibly unfair and irresponsible, which is why episode 5 is so much better with Ben around, since Kenny realizes and tries to atone for those mistakes. BTW, this is also why I want Lilly to return at some point or another. Kenny got his redemption (sorta), so I think it’s fair that Lilly at least get a shot, too (or I guess just shot, for Lilly haters).
Also, I was under the impression a flame war is when people get super pissed and hurl insults at each other over the Internet, rather than actually discussing something. I’d like to think our discussion was a bit more civil than that, and I’m sorry if it came off as a flame war to you.
What I’m saying is that the reason Lilly killed someone wasn’t because she’s an evil person. She killed someone in a fit of insane paranoia,… more and the reason she got that way was because of the specific experience she suffered. The fact that trusted group members “betrayed” is precisely why she became so paranoid. How tragic their experiences are is irrelevant, I was discussing why Lilly’s specific situation led her to do what she did.
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It's not like some kind of math equation, where the severity of a tragedy is directly proportional to how unhinged a person becomes as a result of it. You have to take the specific situation and the specific factors and consequences into account, instead of just saying "Oh, this person suffered a tragedy and didn't kill someone. Therefore, if another person suffers a tragedy that is subjectively less serious than the aforementioned tragedy, said other person has no reason to kill someone other … [view original content]
It's actually possible for her to ask you to get clementine and come with her instead of staying with Kenny etc, and you can actually agree to it, however when you get out of the rv she drives off alone because otherwise telltale would have to make 2 stories for a choice maybe 10% of the players would get to at all.
In one of my saves I decided to side with Lilly and found that she is a pretty good character, however, if you chose to save Carley you will know that she killed her on purpose just because of an insult, which made me hate her, but if you chose to save Doug you can tell from her expression that she didn't mean to harm him and for that I felt more sorry than mad for her.
Sure, Lilly is bad, but other characters can take blame for their actions as well!
Also, don't forget who killed Lilly's father without knowing if he was alive or not, and whose fault it is that Lilly killed Carley/Doug and the main reason Katjaa and Duck are gone.
> Jeez, sorry for the late reply. To be fair, you didn’t reply to my post for four days and I kind of got distracted from this forum because I started summer school the same week. I think we’re beating a dead horse by this point (and I have tons of homework…) so I’ll try to make this quick.
Sorry for my late reply merak, I was busy. I hate long rants but if someone goes through the effort of replying to me with a long post then I should return the same effort.
> I am not in any way trying to justify or make excuses for what Lilly did. I definitely don’t agree or condone what she did, because what she did was horrible. Basically the one point I’ve been trying to get across is that I and other players understand why she did what she did. She murdered someone because she was crazy and she stole the RV because she was a paranoid wreck, not because she is a monster who is pure evil and gets off on causing misery and death.
You brought up Larry's death as the reason for her downfall, always linking her actions back to the incident that occurred in the meat locker, forgive me for thinking that seems like an excuse. Me and others that hate her understand that she lost someone and she was grieving but what we don't understand is why the hell did she kill someone that didn't do a damn thing to her? she targeted someone as kind as Carley and then tried justifying it after, that part is what we don't understand, whether you think she's evil or not, there's no denying that she was a cold hearted bitch for committing a crime that disgusting, that is what you guys try to argue against, that she's a good person and using the "safety of the group" as an excuse even though her action later on dissaproves that theory that she was concerned for the group etc. Point is she's a murderer, there was no reason for her to do what she did, you've seen how kind Carley is and how friendly she is and didn't cause problems for others and for some bully like Lilly to end her life for nothing, wouldn't that fit into the "monster" category"? whether you think a person that kills an innocent in cold blood is a monster or not, surely you believe that she's a heartless bitch? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think we've encountered that many characters that get off on causing misery and death.
> It’s up to the individual to decide whether or not this is enough to warrant forgiveness and pity. The fact that I try to understand why Lilly snapped for reasons outside of “I just happen to be an evil monster” doesn’t actually mean I think she’s some kind of saint, as you seem to believe I think. It’s completely fine to hate her, because she’s not a very likable character (interesting, but not exactly likable), and what she did was disgusting and I understand why people refuse to forgive her. And I also hope you can at least kinda sorta see why some people don’t consider her a one-dimensional villain who makes it her life’s purpose to shoot people in the head and steal automobiles.
How can she be forgiven when she believed she did nothing wrong to begin with? Besides, I don't think it's up to us but rather it's up to the character we play as, we may control their choices but we can't make them like someone that they don't want to. I honestly tried to understand the appeal of Lilly from the Lilly fans but it did not do change my opinion of her as their arguments for defending her are either one-sided, hypocritical, using a family tragedy, bringing up other characters actions to make a point even though Lilly's was much worse or straight up Kenny bashing where he gets all the blame, heck some even go as far as blaming Carley who is the victim in the scenario and now a latest argument is that Lilly is hated because she's a woman.
> And yes, I still think Kenny wanting Ben dead was disgusting. We can argue just exactly how much Kenny was responsible for his family’s death until the cows come home, but it is undeniable that Kenny’s actions played a large role in said deaths. Kenny himself admits as much if you saved Ben. “I could have done more. I could’ve been a better father, a better husband…”And for Kenny to act like Ben was the sole reason behind those deaths is incredibly unfair and irresponsible, which is why episode 5 is so much better with Ben around, since Kenny realizes and tries to atone for those mistakes. BTW, this is also why I want Lilly to return at some point or another. Kenny got his redemption (sorta), so I think it’s fair that Lilly at least get a shot, too (or I guess just shot, for Lilly haters).
And this is where I don't get you. You're more critical of Kenny wanting Ben dead who he believed was responsible for his family's demise whereas you understand Lilly's murder of Carley where she had no reason all because her dad died, Kenny lost a family too you know. Whether you believe it was disgusting, did Kenny harm Ben or even make an attempt to kill him? Kenny lost his wife & son and finding out Ben was dealing with the bandit, all that happened in one day yet he handled it better than Lilly. If you believe Kenny was responsible for what happened to Katjaa & Duck and he was unfair on Ben then tell me why did Ben feel guilty if he wasn't responsible? Why did he kiss up to Kenny? Why was he so willing to tell Kenny it was him and why did he bring up Katjaa & Duck when he confessed? Even Ben knew he played a role in Katjaa & Duck's death. At least Kenny admitted that he should've done more which was a day after he lost his family, something Lilly couldn't in a space of one week. Kenny got his "redemption" because he didn't do something that was close to what Lilly did, I wouldn't think that was his redemption, more like a way of forgiving Ben and giving up on himself though I do want Lilly to return because I want her to pay for her crimes and give us closure.
> Also, I was under the impression a flame war is when people get super pissed and hurl insults at each other over the Internet, rather than actually discussing something. I’d like to think our discussion was a bit more civil than that, and I’m sorry if it came off as a flame war to you.
No need for apologies, I've seen that kind of flame war on YouTube, never on here but then again, I don't come on here as much. PS, I don't know what happened to to italic, bold & quote buttons.
Jeez, sorry for the late reply. To be fair, you didn’t reply to my post for four days and I kind of got distracted from this forum because I… more started summer school the same week. I think we’re beating a dead horse by this point (and I have tons of homework…) so I’ll try to make this quick.
I am not in any way trying to justify or make excuses for what Lilly did. I definitely don’t agree or condone what she did, because what she did was horrible. Basically the one point I’ve been trying to get across is that I and other players understand why she did what she did. She murdered someone because she was crazy and she stole the RV because she was a paranoid wreck, not because she is a monster who is pure evil and gets off on causing misery and death.
It’s up to the individual to decide whether or not this is enough to warrant forgiveness and pity. The fact that I try to understand why Lilly snapped for reasons outside of “I just happen to be … [view original content]
Yeah, I think we’re both pretty tired of long rants by now. Agree to disagree and all that jazz. However, I can’t accept your claim that some pro-Lilly arguments are “hypocritical”. I assume that you’re referring to how some people bring up Lilly’s trauma as a reason for her craziness yet hate Kenny despite HIS trauma, but you’ll find that plenty of people pity BOTH Lilly and Kenny because they both lost their families.
Case in point, I like both Lilly and Kenny’s characters, faults and all.
And just because I find Kenny’s hatred of Ben disgusting doesn’t mean I don’t understand why he felt that way. Just like how, as I said multiple times, I find Lilly’s murdering Carley just as disgusting yet still understand why she did it.
And why did Ben kiss up to Kenny? Because he knew he was partly to blame for Kat and Duck’s deaths, of course. I never implied anywhere that Ben had no part in their deaths, I just criticised Kenny for placing ALL the blame on him, which was completely undeserved.
By the way, apparently the italics and such are temporarily gone because the mods needed to disable format editing after someone hacked the game and released spoiler for ep.4. To prevent people from posting spoilery pictures or something.
> Jeez, sorry for the late reply. To be fair, you didn’t reply to my post for four days and I kind of got distracted from this forum beca… moreuse I started summer school the same week. I think we’re beating a dead horse by this point (and I have tons of homework…) so I’ll try to make this quick.
Sorry for my late reply merak, I was busy. I hate long rants but if someone goes through the effort of replying to me with a long post then I should return the same effort.
> I am not in any way trying to justify or make excuses for what Lilly did. I definitely don’t agree or condone what she did, because what she did was horrible. Basically the one point I’ve been trying to get across is that I and other players understand why she did what she did. She murdered someone because she was crazy and she stole the RV because she was a paranoid wreck, not because she is a monster who is pure evil and gets off on causing misery and death.
You… [view original content]
You were right he did have a lot of room, but walkers surrounded him.
He is in that group of walkers and he survived without a scratch. All he had was a hammer.
Hey there, first of all I won't hate on you for having an opinion, you are entitled to share it so let's not get into a fight here? I'd rather calmly discuss it instead of getting all riled up for no reason.
Second of all, I don't appreciate your statement of
Okay then tell me about Lee,you remember him,right?He is that black guy that YOU'VE BEEN PLAYING THE WHOLE FIRST DAMN SEASON!
There really isn't any need to talk to me as if I'm stupid or use caps, so let's be mature about this please?
So you say that its the same whether you murder someone for a "Protect the group situation" or a pessimistic reason?
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Murder is wrong in every situation, so why hate some characters more than others for the murders they've committed? Lee killed the senator, we all forgave him, Kenny kills Larry, he is forgiven, Lilly kills Carley, can't we forgive her? All I'm trying to say is WHO was murdered shouldn't affect how you judge someone for their crimes. I'm not making excuses for Lilly or anybody about why they chose to murder.
As said by Carlos in Season 2 "After 10 Hours the 'victim' has fever and then he turns to a zombie"!We could have been in that cage for those many hours,possibly causing Clementine's and everyone else's death because they didn't have anything on them!
Well, to be blunt, no. Carlos is referring to a bite victim, as in they will have fever and then turn. Larry wasn't bitten, his heart stopped.
I know that it was very bad to kill someone but I would prefer only one's death than everyone's.
And that's completely fine with me, I respect your opinion. It does make sense but I helped Lilly because I knew Kenny would do it anyway so I may as well help her so she's not alone through a very traumatic experience.
I have to admit, I'm failing to see the point you're trying to make.
Murder is wrong no matter what, even if it's a person you don't like and for "good" reasons. So if people hate Lilly for her crimes, then wh… morey so they not hate Kenny?
So you say that its the same whether you murder someone for a "Protect the group situation" or a pessimistic reason?Okay then tell me about Lee,you remember him,right?He is that black guy that YOU'VE BEEN PLAYING THE WHOLE FIRST DAMN SEASON!He had killed the senator for having sex with his wife (correct me if I'm wrong). Don't throw me those "it was in the heat of the moment" bs...He searched for vengeance and thats what Lilly did too!I'm not handing out sorries here but in Season 1 Episode 2 I told everyone that I was headed to jail the first day of the Apocalypse.In my opinion,the "senator" isn't a reason to hate or dislike Lee because he wasn't even an important role in the game!On the side,Lilly killed Carley that could have been important to the group.Her saying "I d… [view original content]
Yeah, you can. Just say it. Carley was stupid anyway. Can't even put a battery in right. At least Doug was useful. TTG is horrible when it c… moreomes to romances. I wanted my Lee with Lily. Even on the file that i saved Carley in, all we get is a kiss on the cheek.
I hope Bigby gets a romance with Snow in 105.
Comments
Lmao... there IS an age restriction on playing video games actually... But my point my had to do with your "a man can get lonely in the zombie apocalypse" comment.
And what if they never discovered how to work the train?
Or, you know, maybe some people don't like her because of her personality. I didn't really like Kenny either.
Kenny is awesome are u insane?
Nah, I'm just a hater.
Good thing Lee was a natural borne train starter and Kenny was a natural borne train conductor.
So this is why everyone's hating on Snow in TWAU! Thanks for the insight.
I have yet to play TWAU. But I do know Snow is super pretty (for a video game character, that is).
First of all, I want to say while that Lilly is my favourite character, I don't approve of her killing Carley/Doug. All murder is wrong. However she didn't kill Carley/Doug in cold blood. When the term murdered in cold blood is used, it normally means that the murder was planned and/or committed without emotion. Lilly definitely didn't plan to kill Doug, and doesn't show any signs of wanting to kill Carley up until the moment after she glares at Carley after she tells her off. She's also very emotional about it (hate towards Carley, anger towards Ben, guilt towards Doug) she's nearly brought to tears afterwards. That isn't planned murder with no emotion. That is not cold blooded killing.
What about Lee? He murdered someone who was having an affair with his wife, an act of rage and betrayal maybe but it is still murder and occurred before the apocalypse. Yet no one shows hate towards Lee.
Kenny is the first person to suggest murder, and kills Larry right in front of Lilly. It may have been necessary for survival but it was wrong. And then when Lilly murders Carley/Doug, Kenny demands they leave her because she's a murderer! That act alone says he's a hypocrite when he was the one who murdered Larry and later one, hints to Lee that he should drop Ben.
Many more people have murdered so why do people seem to focus their hate on Lilly, but not anyone else? The person who was murdered shouldn't affect how you feel about the murder. So if you're going to hate Lilly for murdering Carley/Doug, then why make excuses for Kenny and Lee?
I'm not making excuses for Lilly, she shouldn't have shot Carley/Doug but she is not a bad or evil person. Just a broken woman who had everything torn away from her, no emotional comfort what so ever and was pushed too far.
So you say that its the same whether you murder someone for a "Protect the group situation" or a pessimistic reason?Okay then tell me about Lee,you remember him,right?He is that black guy that YOU'VE BEEN PLAYING THE WHOLE FIRST DAMN SEASON!He had killed the senator for having sex with his wife (correct me if I'm wrong). Don't throw me those "it was in the heat of the moment" bs...He searched for vengeance and thats what Lilly did too!I'm not handing out sorries here but in Season 1 Episode 2 I told everyone that I was headed to jail the first day of the Apocalypse.In my opinion,the "senator" isn't a reason to hate or dislike Lee because he wasn't even an important role in the game!On the side,Lilly killed Carley that could have been important to the group.Her saying "I did it to help the group"doesn't fix what she had done!
No,I didn't try to help Larry because there are some reasons out there in the Apocalypse!As said by Carlos in Season 2 "After 10 Hours the 'victim' has fever and then he turns to a zombie"!We could have been in that cage for those many hours,possibly causing Clementine's and everyone else's death because they didn't have anything on them!I know that it was very bad to kill someone but I would prefer only one's death than everyone's.
Oh and as for the dislikes and rants from Lilly fans...Hit me with what you've got,I can take it and prove you wrong,so..come on!
I'm glad Lilly isn't the Lilly from the comic book. That means she can show up again.
Having a major part of Lee and Clementine's storyline reduced to a cameo in their lives doesn't interest me.
[double post]
They apparently did a version where they killed him off but the writers were conflicted on it and decided to leave it open-ended like that so they could bring him back if they wanted to. It wasn't' to please fans, otherwise they would've killed him off and brought him back after fan demand. When I first played No Time Left, I knew immediately that they had future plans for Kenny.
Christa and Omid didn't really see the majority of Lee's decision making. Kenny has though.
I would find it weird if both Kenny and Lilly showed up. If it was one or the other that would be all right but having every character from season 1 make an appearance would feel weird and contrived.
........
I knew this day would come.
I took it as a joke, i wouldn't get to deep into it.
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So are you telling me she is that weak that she can't handle someone that tells her off? Out of all the people to kill, she chose the one person who was like(and I said) kind and not the one that argues with her on a daily basis. If she had killed Kenny or Lee or even Katjaa to get back at Kenny then we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's not a math question, that's how life works, there's always someone, somewhere that has it just as bad as you do. The fact she kill someone when there are others who caused her pain(St Johns, Kenny or Lee) and then tried justifying it afterwards makes her look like an immoral monster.
You're making Lilly out to be a special case that needs special treatment. How is Lilly any different from anybody else that lost a family member? Did she lose her morals? Let's just say this was real life scenario, a bully(who is Lilly in this case) gets up in a girls face and starts hassling her, the girl tells her off and the bully shoots and kills her, what are you gonna tell the girls family? "Oh the bully is not a bad person, she just lost her father", then they'll ask "WTF did have to do with her?", you think that'll sit well with the judge(if he's not a sexist) or jury for that matter? They'll say that they also lost a father but apparently Lilly is one of a kind.
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There is no denying that Kenny wanted Ben dead and took advantage of the situation when Ben gave up hope. Did Kenny tell Lee "Drop him or else", in this case Kenny had a reason while Lilly didn't, like I said, does he make an attempt on Ben's life. And really? I mean really? In what world is wanting someone dead who you believe was responsible for your family's demise more worse than murdering an innocent person in cold blood for no reason?
You're acting like Kenny picked on Ben for no reason as you are comparing him to how he treats Ben to a woman that killed an innocent person who did "nothing" to her. Did Kenny start pointing the fingers at anybody or hassling others before Ben revealed that he was the one dealing with the bandits? Like I said, Kenny reacted as anybody would, did you expect him to start rubbing Ben's shoulder and telling him "oh poor you, making deals behind our backs and not giving us the heads up which would've prevented my family's death, poor you"? At the end of the day, Kenny's crime was being a dick to Ben which is understandable, nothing more whereas Lilly crossed the line with no reason. At the end of the day, Kenny and Lilly's actions are not comparable, that's like saying people that give reckless drivers a hard time for killing someone they care about in a drunk driving accident to murderers that kill with intent.
If you want to blame Kenny's carelessness for his family's demise then fair enough, if that's how you see it then I'm not gonna argue with you their, all I can say is the bandit attack was out of the blue and Kenny's first instinct was to start the getaway vehicle. And yes it was Kat's decision to end her own life, she and Kenny both accepted that Duck is as good as dead, what more could he have done? Kat wanted to put Duck and wanted his blessing and she got it but chose to off herself instead of ending her sons pain & suffering, I'm sure even Lee couldn't predict that outcome. And he did not push 100% blame on Ben? Ben did most of it, why does Ben blame himself again? why was the guilt eating him up? why did he start kissing Kenny's ass all of a sudden? Because he knew he played a part in his family's deaths, even in the classroom, Ben brought up Duck & Katjaa's name when he was fessing up. And tell me, how does he treat Lee if he saved Ben? does he treat him the same way like in the version where he dropped Ben?
I find it funny that you're more critical with Kenny and him giving Ben a hard time than Lilly murdering someone for no reason. Did Kenny not lose a family hours earlier when he was going off on Ben? He suffered a tragic loss too didn't he? But yet you're making excuses for Lilly who committed an immoral & cold hearted act! If it's Kenny fault that his family are dead then surely Lilly's got to take some of the blame for Larry's death, she knew he had a bad heart but doesn't do much to calm him down especially in the meat locker.
So she's not brave as you make her out to be than. She said one line and kept quiet throughout the whole argument. She's the leader is she not, she should be diffusing the situation because there are zombies just outside but instead does nothing and lets her dad with a bad heart start a fight with strangers. Since Glenn & Carley saved Duck in the first place, I'll let them off, besides, Carley did tell people to calm down.
She was bringing Lee up when she was pointing fingers in the RV. She wanted him to join her in hassling Carley/Ben.You're right, Troy can't be compared with Lilly because he doesn't pretend to care "Hey I care about you, I got your back", only to leave you to die out on the road for doing nothing. Reason why I brought Troy up is because even though he saved Clem, he smacks her later on and people consider him a piece of shit for it but when Lilly leaves a little girl to die, some of these same people would say "no, no, no, you got it all wrong, she's a caring person". Leaving a little girl to die is just as bad and if not, worse then smacking her.
What about the version where she would do nothing and lets you die. All she did was watch Clem for a couple of minutes, I wouldn't call that protecting her when there was no danger at that moment to protect her from. And like I asked, where could she go if she left them? who would go on supply runs?, who would she boss around? Lilly needed the group more than they needed her. She robbed and left a group that consisted of two kids to die? what more do you need to shows how much of a selfish coward she is? You said it yourself that it was a selfish act committed by a scared woman, are you gonna change your mind and call it a selfless heroics? How about her ratting you out and telling others that you're a convicted killer just to drag you down, yeah she's real noble isn't she.
I didn't notice the banang, it's not like the game gave you option to explore my surroundings at that point. When she said they lost "everything", you can't believe that she was only talking about the motel. Did Lilly consider the banang as a supply considering she was acting like they lost everything as she said.
Of course she was scared, anyone would be if they were gonna be left out in the dark with zombies and bandits running around and she looked sad because she knew she lost the control of the group and knows she screwed, not because of what she did as she didn't look sad or scared when she gunned down an unarmed woman. Whether you see what Kenny's intention was, leaving her out is the only humane punishment, that's different from killing someone, you're just leaving her to fend for herself whereas she never gave Carley a chance but straight up took her life. If you release an animal into the wild, does that mean your killing it? No, Lilly acts tough so lets see how she does by herself.
What you pointed out is that she had it in her crazy little head that the group was gonna punish her. I pointed out why that seems unlikely and then so on. “Oh, I’m a selfish bitch so I’m gonna leave them because I can, lol” I kind of picked up that vibe from her, surely it can't be "I really care about which is why I'm leaving you out here to die after you were kind enough to bring me along after the crime I committed, because that's what friends do, you'll thank me someday".
You were saying all Kenny did was moping for ages(considering it's only been a day) and wanting to kill Ben as if Lilly didn't do the same either. Kenny didn't have any consoling or talk about it much but he wasn't a problem like Lilly was. My point is that consoling wouldn't have prevented the stunt she pulled.
So Lee, Clementine, Katjaa, Duck & Ben needed to punished for doing what exactly compared to Lilly who murdered an innocent person? You did say she believed Kenny would kill her when he suggested leaving her, there's two ways they would've punished her, leaving her or killing her, which want do you think Lilly would prefer? The RV stunt, what did the rest of the group do to warrant that punishment after they were kind enough to bring her along? I want her to comeback as herself and I want Clementine to not be nice to her otherwise she'd be stabbing Lee, Ben, Katjaa & Duck in the back by being all friendly with her.
You're telling me she didn't know what she was doing when she shot a bullet at a persons face, did she think they would get back up and be fine? Didn't the St Johns lose a father as well? Lilly didn't exactly have any qualms about what she did either.
What about killing Carley and stealing the RV after murdering Doug/Carley, she didn't seem like she regretted it, her face screamed "I don't give a fuck". I never once stated Kenny didn't want Ben dead, just that he never crossed the line and killing him. Yeah she looked horrified when she killed Doug because he wasn't the intended target but she soon got over it pretty quickly when she stole the RV. I apologize LOL, I must not have heard when she said "sorry", that makes everything better that she's sorry for leaving me and the others to die when we were so kind to bring her along and she said that with the same expression when she killed Carley, the "I don't give a fuck" look. You really believe that she's a good person which begs the question of what kind of people do you know, if you think what Lilly did is a sign of normal friend behavior and have friends like that then I all I can say is watch your back and never let your guard down.
Carver could've had Reggie killed but instead had his life saved, even Reggie said himself that Carver could've killed him when he had the chance and when Reggie did a bad job, Carver went all loony. But if that's what you think, fair enough. But one thing you said that Carver acted on those thoughts when given the excuse, seemed Lilly did the same with the traitor excuse, it seems both are not all that different.
I thought we were already in a flame war?
Anybody, good or bad, would be upset if someone was taking the supplies, she needed the supplies as well. Still doesn't change the fact that she killed a person out of nothing and decides to punish the group by taking their one transport vehicle when they were kind enough to bring her along. Is that the sign of a caring person?
Yeah Lilly haters are sexist dicks, I'm sure the hate she gets has nothing to do with her murdering a popular likeable character. If anything, if it was the other way round and she was a man, she wouldn't be getting this much support and backing from people. My hate for Lilly has nothing to do with her gender.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0spFY1I2NQ
All I Can say is, she killed the nicest person in TWD! I won' down vote you though.
Ben indirectly killed them....
Anyway..it doesn't matter....it's the fact that Ben compromised the group...that's the matter.
Ben indirectly killed Katjaa & Duck. Unless Ben hypnotized Lilly otherwise at the end of the day, it was her that made the decision to pull the trigger and ended someone's life and it was her that made the decision to rob her own group.
and let some woman get eaten slowly to death on the way to the drug store
I assume you're referring to Kenny, at the start of episode 3 with "some woman" being Beatrice?
yea kenny jumps to the worse choice from the start he doesn't even try to think of different ways he likes to kill is my opinion
Yes, I agree. Kenny wants to kill Larry and Beatrice, wants Lee to drop Ben and if you don't side with Kenny he won't help Lee on at least two occasions (in the barn with Danny & in the drug store getting supplies)
Jeez, sorry for the late reply. To be fair, you didn’t reply to my post for four days and I kind of got distracted from this forum because I started summer school the same week. I think we’re beating a dead horse by this point (and I have tons of homework…) so I’ll try to make this quick.
I am not in any way trying to justify or make excuses for what Lilly did. I definitely don’t agree or condone what she did, because what she did was horrible. Basically the one point I’ve been trying to get across is that I and other players understand why she did what she did. She murdered someone because she was crazy and she stole the RV because she was a paranoid wreck, not because she is a monster who is pure evil and gets off on causing misery and death.
It’s up to the individual to decide whether or not this is enough to warrant forgiveness and pity. The fact that I try to understand why Lilly snapped for reasons outside of “I just happen to be an evil monster” doesn’t actually mean I think she’s some kind of saint, as you seem to believe I think. It’s completely fine to hate her, because she’s not a very likable character (interesting, but not exactly likable), and what she did was disgusting and I understand why people refuse to forgive her. And I also hope you can at least kinda sorta see why some people don’t consider her a one-dimensional villain who makes it her life’s purpose to shoot people in the head and steal automobiles.
And yes, I still think Kenny wanting Ben dead was disgusting. We can argue just exactly how much Kenny was responsible for his family’s death until the cows come home, but it is undeniable that Kenny’s actions played a large role in said deaths. Kenny himself admits as much if you saved Ben. “I could have done more. I could’ve been a better father, a better husband…”And for Kenny to act like Ben was the sole reason behind those deaths is incredibly unfair and irresponsible, which is why episode 5 is so much better with Ben around, since Kenny realizes and tries to atone for those mistakes. BTW, this is also why I want Lilly to return at some point or another. Kenny got his redemption (sorta), so I think it’s fair that Lilly at least get a shot, too (or I guess just shot, for Lilly haters).
Also, I was under the impression a flame war is when people get super pissed and hurl insults at each other over the Internet, rather than actually discussing something. I’d like to think our discussion was a bit more civil than that, and I’m sorry if it came off as a flame war to you.
It's actually possible for her to ask you to get clementine and come with her instead of staying with Kenny etc, and you can actually agree to it, however when you get out of the rv she drives off alone because otherwise telltale would have to make 2 stories for a choice maybe 10% of the players would get to at all.
In one of my saves I decided to side with Lilly and found that she is a pretty good character, however, if you chose to save Carley you will know that she killed her on purpose just because of an insult, which made me hate her, but if you chose to save Doug you can tell from her expression that she didn't mean to harm him and for that I felt more sorry than mad for her.
Sure, Lilly is bad, but other characters can take blame for their actions as well!
Also, don't forget who killed Lilly's father without knowing if he was alive or not, and whose fault it is that Lilly killed Carley/Doug and the main reason Katjaa and Duck are gone.
Sorry for my late reply merak, I was busy. I hate long rants but if someone goes through the effort of replying to me with a long post then I should return the same effort.
> I am not in any way trying to justify or make excuses for what Lilly did. I definitely don’t agree or condone what she did, because what she did was horrible. Basically the one point I’ve been trying to get across is that I and other players understand why she did what she did. She murdered someone because she was crazy and she stole the RV because she was a paranoid wreck, not because she is a monster who is pure evil and gets off on causing misery and death.
You brought up Larry's death as the reason for her downfall, always linking her actions back to the incident that occurred in the meat locker, forgive me for thinking that seems like an excuse. Me and others that hate her understand that she lost someone and she was grieving but what we don't understand is why the hell did she kill someone that didn't do a damn thing to her? she targeted someone as kind as Carley and then tried justifying it after, that part is what we don't understand, whether you think she's evil or not, there's no denying that she was a cold hearted bitch for committing a crime that disgusting, that is what you guys try to argue against, that she's a good person and using the "safety of the group" as an excuse even though her action later on dissaproves that theory that she was concerned for the group etc. Point is she's a murderer, there was no reason for her to do what she did, you've seen how kind Carley is and how friendly she is and didn't cause problems for others and for some bully like Lilly to end her life for nothing, wouldn't that fit into the "monster" category"? whether you think a person that kills an innocent in cold blood is a monster or not, surely you believe that she's a heartless bitch? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think we've encountered that many characters that get off on causing misery and death.
> It’s up to the individual to decide whether or not this is enough to warrant forgiveness and pity. The fact that I try to understand why Lilly snapped for reasons outside of “I just happen to be an evil monster” doesn’t actually mean I think she’s some kind of saint, as you seem to believe I think. It’s completely fine to hate her, because she’s not a very likable character (interesting, but not exactly likable), and what she did was disgusting and I understand why people refuse to forgive her. And I also hope you can at least kinda sorta see why some people don’t consider her a one-dimensional villain who makes it her life’s purpose to shoot people in the head and steal automobiles.
How can she be forgiven when she believed she did nothing wrong to begin with? Besides, I don't think it's up to us but rather it's up to the character we play as, we may control their choices but we can't make them like someone that they don't want to. I honestly tried to understand the appeal of Lilly from the Lilly fans but it did not do change my opinion of her as their arguments for defending her are either one-sided, hypocritical, using a family tragedy, bringing up other characters actions to make a point even though Lilly's was much worse or straight up Kenny bashing where he gets all the blame, heck some even go as far as blaming Carley who is the victim in the scenario and now a latest argument is that Lilly is hated because she's a woman.
> And yes, I still think Kenny wanting Ben dead was disgusting. We can argue just exactly how much Kenny was responsible for his family’s death until the cows come home, but it is undeniable that Kenny’s actions played a large role in said deaths. Kenny himself admits as much if you saved Ben. “I could have done more. I could’ve been a better father, a better husband…”And for Kenny to act like Ben was the sole reason behind those deaths is incredibly unfair and irresponsible, which is why episode 5 is so much better with Ben around, since Kenny realizes and tries to atone for those mistakes. BTW, this is also why I want Lilly to return at some point or another. Kenny got his redemption (sorta), so I think it’s fair that Lilly at least get a shot, too (or I guess just shot, for Lilly haters).
And this is where I don't get you. You're more critical of Kenny wanting Ben dead who he believed was responsible for his family's demise whereas you understand Lilly's murder of Carley where she had no reason all because her dad died, Kenny lost a family too you know. Whether you believe it was disgusting, did Kenny harm Ben or even make an attempt to kill him? Kenny lost his wife & son and finding out Ben was dealing with the bandit, all that happened in one day yet he handled it better than Lilly. If you believe Kenny was responsible for what happened to Katjaa & Duck and he was unfair on Ben then tell me why did Ben feel guilty if he wasn't responsible? Why did he kiss up to Kenny? Why was he so willing to tell Kenny it was him and why did he bring up Katjaa & Duck when he confessed? Even Ben knew he played a role in Katjaa & Duck's death. At least Kenny admitted that he should've done more which was a day after he lost his family, something Lilly couldn't in a space of one week. Kenny got his "redemption" because he didn't do something that was close to what Lilly did, I wouldn't think that was his redemption, more like a way of forgiving Ben and giving up on himself though I do want Lilly to return because I want her to pay for her crimes and give us closure.
> Also, I was under the impression a flame war is when people get super pissed and hurl insults at each other over the Internet, rather than actually discussing something. I’d like to think our discussion was a bit more civil than that, and I’m sorry if it came off as a flame war to you.
No need for apologies, I've seen that kind of flame war on YouTube, never on here but then again, I don't come on here as much. PS, I don't know what happened to to italic, bold & quote buttons.
Case in point, I like both Lilly and Kenny’s characters, faults and all.
And just because I find Kenny’s hatred of Ben disgusting doesn’t mean I don’t understand why he felt that way. Just like how, as I said multiple times, I find Lilly’s murdering Carley just as disgusting yet still understand why she did it.
And why did Ben kiss up to Kenny? Because he knew he was partly to blame for Kat and Duck’s deaths, of course. I never implied anywhere that Ben had no part in their deaths, I just criticised Kenny for placing ALL the blame on him, which was completely undeserved.
By the way, apparently the italics and such are temporarily gone because the mods needed to disable format editing after someone hacked the game and released spoiler for ep.4. To prevent people from posting spoilery pictures or something.
i like jokes
Wait this discussion is still going on!
Gotta pass the time until the episode's out! :P
Hey there, first of all I won't hate on you for having an opinion, you are entitled to share it so let's not get into a fight here? I'd rather calmly discuss it instead of getting all riled up for no reason.
Second of all, I don't appreciate your statement of
There really isn't any need to talk to me as if I'm stupid or use caps, so let's be mature about this please?
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Murder is wrong in every situation, so why hate some characters more than others for the murders they've committed? Lee killed the senator, we all forgave him, Kenny kills Larry, he is forgiven, Lilly kills Carley, can't we forgive her? All I'm trying to say is WHO was murdered shouldn't affect how you judge someone for their crimes. I'm not making excuses for Lilly or anybody about why they chose to murder.
Well, to be blunt, no. Carlos is referring to a bite victim, as in they will have fever and then turn. Larry wasn't bitten, his heart stopped.
And that's completely fine with me, I respect your opinion. It does make sense but I helped Lilly because I knew Kenny would do it anyway so I may as well help her so she's not alone through a very traumatic experience.
I have to admit, I'm failing to see the point you're trying to make.
i like Lilly,i think she survived,but she is gonna be ultra pissed when she shows up again.
screw u man she was smoking hot
So?