About The Play-through Length Controversy...
So by now, pretty much all of you have managed to play or watch someone on YouTube play the season finale of The Wolf Among Us. This episode was just unbelievably awesome and well thought out and it's my favourite episode of a fantastic series.
But I'll be damned if the complaints didn't come in as quickly as the episode was released (hell BEFORE it was released). And I'm not talking about people who might actually have rational arguments for why they didn't like this episode. I'm talking about the people who are genuinely upset over the fact that to them it was SHORT. Every time a go to this site, I see a comment or even thread that contains a speech that berates Telltale for having "short" episodes. And honestly, I don't get it. These "90 minute revolutions" that have been going on since Episode Three of The Walking Dead Season Two came out are just going to end up looking like a joke to newcomers.
I've said this way too many times, but I'll say it again.
The length of anything (a movie, a TV show, a video game, or even an episode form Telltale) can NOT be too long for the sake of consumers getting the most of their money.
The rule to how long your story will be is that it should be all the time you need to tell it. If you feel you need 60-90 minutes to tell your story, then it should be 60-90 minutes long. If you need more time to tell your story, then do it but don't make it boring and add nothing to the plot.
I've seen some movies with a short runtime that felt so long because it so boring and not engaging (ex. After Earth) while movies with a longer runtime don't feel long because you're invested in what's going on (ex. The Dark Knight).
The majority of Season One's episodes were just over 2 hours long, with Around Every Corner being nearly 2.5 hours long. Why is this a good thing?That just means it's going to take this long to finish the game, and it's not why I continued playing their games.
I get that not everything is perfect and I don't expect anything from Telltale to be perfect. What I do expect from them, however, is effort and they put a lot of that into their games. I appreciate people who put a lot thought and work into their stories.
I said to some people on the forum that quality is more important than quantity, and they've responded with "Why not have both? [insert stupid GIF of Old El Paso commercial here]. Well here's my response to this and this may come as a shock...
You DO have both!
- Quality: The games are playable and balanced, the presentation is beautiful to look at, the story is well-thought out, the music and sound works.
- Quantity: How long it takes you to finish the game.
People say that because the episodes are shorter, the quality is gone. If you really think this is true, imagine this scneario:
If you want to be a filmmaker.
You make a movie that has everything a good movie should have: a well written story, great characters, good directing, good acting, good cinematography, etc. The majority of the audience would give you praise and acclaim, but the minority would give you shit because it was only 1 hour and 20 minutes long when they expected 2-3 hours.
You'd care about the praise that the people who enjoyed your work are giving you and not the ones who hate it for not indulging their binge.
If you are among the amount of people who don't feel like some of the characters are developing, what makes you think making the game longer is going to fix that? Hubs? No. I hate to break it to you, but hubs don't flesh out character development as much as you think they do.
If you walk up to someone and talk about who they were before the zombies, that's not character development. That just gives us an idea about who they were before and not who they are now. Brie was a college student who also miraculously survived cancer? Fucking good for her. It doesn't change the fact that she was acting like a total bitch when I was being nice to her group when I first met them.
Look, my point is if you sincerely believe that Telltale Games is going downhill because you feel like it's not fair to wait 2 months for 1/5 of a game that doesn't meet up to your expectations in terms of length, then that's YOUR problem. Not the company who made the games as they see fit, your's for believing that's what made their previous games great in the first place.
Comments
Whoa whoa whoa... I'm pretty sure on Hershel's farm (Hub) when you talk to Kenny and Katjaa. You learn that Kenny has a BOAT and that he was a commercial fisherman. Then you learn that Katjaa was a veterinarian, and her view on the apocalypse. That is learning about the character aka "developing a character"
But other than that I can see some of your other points.
I think you may have over explained your point. I see what you mean, but most people are still probably gonna want a good and long episode. There's no stopping it.
Hubs actually do flesh out character development. Who the characters are now IS important, but who they were before is also extremely important and can also be just electrifying to learn about. Besides, the hubs didn't just give backstory. They also tell you about who a person is now. I remember in one playthrough -- the one that made me finally have some sympathy for Lilly -- I didn't save Clem in time when the zombie lurched out of the drugstore bathroom. Carley still shot it, so Clem was ok, but I felt completely horrible for not getting to Clem in time. And I talked to Lilly in the hub and she told me not to worry about it. She'd seen trained killers "freeze up" just like I had (actually I just could not work the controls on the PS3 controller.....I play on my iPad now). It really did show me a kind gentle side to Lilly. There's lots of other times hubs tell you about a person's current personality. You'd never find out that Clem licked a salt lick or put a bug on Duck's pillow if it weren't for hubs. She was a mischievous child back then.
Anyway, I get what you're saying about taking just the right amount of time to tell a story. I get it because I'm not really much of a gamer. I'm more of a movie-lover, a story-lover. And that's the main reason I fell in love with this game: its amazing story. But the thing is it's still not a movie. It's a game. And the feeling of LIVING the story is important to a game. And frankly, the hubs make it feel more like you are living the story, not just watching it.
bringbackthehubs
While I agree, I've pretty much given up on debating this and rarely engage in this sort of thread these days as I can't be bothered with all of the complaining. Too little respect etc. around for people's creative endeavors and I don't mean just here. It's everywhere on the web and probably away from it as well.
Regardless, I've said similar things myself, but then I'm a writer, so I would. Every word needs to count, and the story shouldn't be longer than it needs to be. But I fully expect for you, as I did even though it was said nicely, to get told that video games are different. They're not really. If you're focusing on the story, rather than gameplay which is what Telltale's doing, then the story shouldn't be drawn out. (I do give people the fact that it's possible to add extra length without it feeling drawn out, but we won't know unless it's done and Telltale obviously think the episodes are the right length. At the end of the day, it is their story too)
The one thing, and only thing, that I could ever complain about and it's not really a complaint because I don't feel very strongly about it, is that I wish choices would matter more. I don't really think it's the case of them not mattering so much either, but it's rather that they claim the choices matter in the advertising (I'm too much of a idealist though, so if I claimed it was so, I'd make sure choices mattered and it's the same issue I've had with some of Bioware's games). And I do realise how much extra work would be required for them to matter more. I'm currently creating a game with RPG Maker (cue people mocking that), and despite people's thoughts, it's hardly easy. Plus I've tried my hand at writing an interactive story too, so I know how much work it is to make choices that matter.
Of course, if they ended up making choices matter, which would lead to a longer development time, people would complain about the length it takes for episodes to come out then. It's a matter of choosing priorities and it's also a case of 'damned no matter what you do' because people will always complain.
So many different opinions out there and the worst thing, really, aside from the lack of respect shown at times, is that people tend to think that their opinion is fact, they should be catered to and that they speak for everyone. (I'm not referencing anything in particular here by the way, just speaking in general when it comes to complaints etc.)
Thank you, finally someone else here who has a brain.
Edit: Nevermind, for some reason, I thought you replied under my post, PerttuLaulaa. Well, you did, but I meant actually hit the reply to my post.
A bit harsh for people who express a different opinion but I do agree with the OP as well.
I believe this issue has already been discussed to great lenghts, and yet here we are again.
While I feel I know what it is you are trying to say, there is a difference between the way Hubs were handled in Season two and the way they worked back in Season one, for one thing in Season one you had the option of talking to everyone while in a Hub section, moreover you could also pick the topic of the conversastion based on what was happening at the time. All that was optional, what it did give us were longer episodes and plenty of character development, this is precisely what is lacking in Season two.
Now don't get me wrong Hubs aren't the absolute solution to everything, but so far it seems like they would certainly help to, at the very least partially solve most of the issues people have with the recent episodes of TWDG S2.
"Lenght isn't everything", while that is true it still matters, to some extent anyway, as far as I can remember, the amount of people that complained about some of the Season one episodes beign too long was rather miniscule really, compared to the amount of people that now complain about the current Season two episodes beign too short.
So in conclusion, yes, I do partially agree with you on some of the points you made, however it is my belief that Season two would only benefit if it had Proper Hubs, just like the first Season did.
As much as you might be over the 'complaining', I'm about as equally over how condescending these pro-TellTale posts are toward people that dare raise some criticisms of their products. When I put my issues with this season and TWAU out there, I don't feel the need to tack on pointless back-patting about how I 'get it' and how stupid and blind other people are that don't.
I don't feel like rehashing my arguments for the umpteenth time at the moment, so here's another stupid gif:
TLDR. But from your other posts on the subject I'm 99 percent sure I completely agree with what you typed.
You keep saying "Quality over Quantity" in other threads like you know the Quantity is not there anymore but now in this thread you say we both have the Quality and the Quantity even though that is not true because 66 minute long episodes are not "Quantity". And you're saying the Quality lies on the beautiful art, environments, music and the fact that the game is "playable". That's like saying great graphics make a good game but i'm sorry my friend but you're wrong. TWD has never been ONLY about getting from point A to B in the story, it's about how the characters EVOLVE throughout the journey and so far these new characters have had almost no visible character development.
So far Season 2 has strayed away from the main essence of TWD and what made Season 1 so great in the first place.
Was going to type some more about how stupid that reasoning behind hubs was but i just realized i better stop responding to apologists' threads
The 90 minute Revolution i remember when i made that thread :,D
Hubs are great but you can have character development without them. Look at 400 days. When you play as Russell you don't have a hub and you're with him for a very short amount but you still learn who he is, his morals and what he cares about in like 10-15 minutes. Same goes for Nate and all the other 400 days characters.
As a writer myself, I partly agree with you on the playthrough length controversy. You can't force yourself to write in things just to make the story longer, unless it contributes to the general storyline or adds onto it in a good way. You lay out the foundation and fill things in around your basic format - five episodes, 12 chapters/8 achievements each, and 5 main choices per episode. TWD season 1 was beautiful and amazing and it set the record for s2 (and also TWAU, and soon GoT and Borderlands). No one is ever going to be 100% happy with TWDG s2 as a whole, but in all honestly, I do enjoy it. I think one major theme, said by Carver himself, is that if people can't trust you, how can you trust them? Clementine doesn't know a whole lot about these people ("You have no idea who these people are, do you?") and it's not like how it was during season 1, just a few months into the apocalypse, where everyone doesn't really know what to do and have retained some of their humanity. People have found ways to survive that include not opening up about themselves, including Clementine herself.
I do miss hubs, though. I want more hubs and they are on the top of my wishlist for each episode that comes out. But it's important to realize that hubs shouldn't be the necessity for successful character development. Words don't dictate who a person is or who they will be, it's their actions.
What type of writer? You write books, the bible, poetry, etc.
I disagree with you, therefore you are brainless.
XD
The TWDS2 is significantly worse that S1, and a lot the fans on this forum have pointed out the reasons why. I enjoyed the TWAU, but it obviously could have used longer episodes instead of cramming all the answers into an hour in their finale. They have gutted essential parts of the gameplay and shortened the episodes dramatically so they could take on more projects. The quality of their games has dropped significantly and the shortened episodes didn't even solve the problems of getting the episodes released quicker.
I dont have an issue with the ep length at all, and what was there was good quality, im good with all that...
But like some have stressed here the character development in S2 so far has been disappointing to say the least.
To start things off in S1 by ep1 how many characters had we met? And come ep2 we were already bonding with a number of em, now in S2 we spend all episode walking around a forest alone.... we finally reach the cabin and we really dont learn a fat lot, its whats missing that is anoying me..
Honestly I think ep4 will tell us a lot.... have telltale been playing the long game here? We are hearing stories that ep4 is going to be emotional, in places at least.. if they manage this then its a stroke of genius on telltales part, I have to admit there is somthing very strange with how S2 is panning out imo, can't quite put my finger on it tho.
I mean ep1 had me scratchin my head, could the creator's of S1 make such a big mistake from the very beginning of s2? Or is this a double bluff build up?
Ep4 will define the season IMO, if its strong then we are in for a treat and S3 is basically guaranteed, if its weak........ then S2 has been a biiig disappointment and ep1 will be a "wtf were u thinking" ep.. while ep3 will be a cheap attempt to recreate ep2 of series one..
Maybe we aint meant to have had strong relationships yet... I know ....... long shot but its all we can hope for now, if it is... it will be epic.
Fine OP. Your opinion means jack. because at the end of the day PEOPLE decide with their wallets. People who bought season 2 expected the same quality and quantity as season 1. And that clearly isn't the case. If you and telltale think this is what people want. Then we will se if people continue to buy this nonsense in a future season. I know I won't until I see the same level of quality as season 1. And we CLEARLY are't getting that with this 90 minute trash.
So keep making the consumers feel like trash because YOU want to be an apologist. Keep denying that this season isn't a rushed mess. I know there are a lot of young kids who will thumb you up and make you feel better. At the end of the day, know you won't be getting my money after this season. And also know that you and Telltale taking the EA, "we know better" and "your opinion means nothing" will not work out for you. Just saying.
Nobodies opinion means jack! You wanna know why? Because it's their opinion.
Uuhh i hate to break it to you OP ,but you are wrong and the comments are justified,so if telltale has an idea for a 5 minute episode with Clem will that result in an episode because that's all they have to tell,gimme a break
man ...seriously..fuck this. To the point: as long as my 4.99 per episode is worth spending...then by all means...it's fuckin' worth it.
Your post is straight up TTG Sheep's post...only one sided....never looked into the bad side of it.
I'm sorry. Did you not read the OP? That is his opinion in a nutshell. Our opinion means nothing. The length is "our problem". Who says this? This is a person who doesn't understand the logic in a consumer based business. The customer is always right is a thing for a reason. There is no such thing as the business is always right.
Fuck this I'm out so much damn arguing....
This use to be a fun place but now nobody can be respectable to eachother.
Damn I feel like this has become the IGN community.
I hear ya.
I agree
I want to add my voice into this because I have thought about it for a while.
While I enjoy Season 2 so far, I can see that the character development are certainly lacking among some characters. To name a few, I would say Carlos and Alvin. While their deaths are tragic, I feel like that I don't know them enough for their deaths to truly affect me.
I personally don't mind the episode length in The Wolf Among Us, because in my opinion, it benefits from the fast-paced narrative. But The Walking Dead Season 2 doesn't benefit from the fast-paced narrative, because it has always been about the characters that interests me and I need time to get to know them.
But then again, you can argue that Clementine aren't as sociable as Lee, because she is a child who has witnessed a lot of traumatic stuff and the circumstances didn't give the characters the luxury of time to be social. Hopefully after episode 3, there will be time for character developments for the characters.
Why do you keep saying that the interactions in hubs are only related to the characters' past from before the outbreak?
Strictly speaking, that is exposition. Exposition can be used for character development. A person's past is many times tied to what that person has become. This is of course not always the case, but so is not always the case what you are saying.
Knowing that Darth Vader in the past was a jedi by the name of Anakin Skywalker is irrelevant to the understanding of what his character is now? Risky example, but I am dry.
Contrary to the impression I may give through some of my posts, I do appreciate their effort, too. Effort is not all. An athlete can put all of her or his effort in winning a gold medal, and still earn silver, bronze or no medal at all. There was effort there, and what is good is undeniable, but so is what is bad.
We don't have both. The whole point of this episodic thing is for Telltale to get feedback. We need hubs and more character development.
We also learned about Shawn and Clementine and a bit about Duck
I think that they need to add more character interactions, chatting with all the characters made last season longer
Very true.
The last novel I wrote had something like 320 MS Word pages (including additional stories and an author's note). It felt a little short, yeah, but my story is not a Game of Thrones/LotR type, with tons of characters, descriptions, purple prose, lore and other stuff; I just developed five characters and got the plot advancing. After reading it, the book felt long enough and satisfying, which, IMO, is more important than having 700 pages of boring stuff (AKA: Purple prose).
I like to write fiction mostly. I've written a few TWDG and other fics before, as well as some original work, but I know that writing isn't going to be my "day job" lol, esp. since I don't often share what I write.
Why not? I'm sure you write some good stories. Have you shared your fan fics?
I've had a few ff.net accounts where I shared my fan fics (my current one is iamclem). Mostly I'm just pretty shy. And thanks
No problem and theres no reason to be shy it's the internet.
I dont think its bad i dont see people flaming each other everyone has been respectful. All i gotta say is at least it isnt the Call of Duty forums anyone who goes in never comes out xD
People do decide with their wallets, you're exactly right. If season two doesn't dramatically improve with the forthcoming episodes, I won't be buying season three either. If there is a season three that is.
Don't get me wrong I have enjoyed season two so far, but as I have said before it's not a patch on season one. Yes, the story has been good. Unfortunately though it could have been so much better.
It's a pity that telltale didn't read some of the fanfics, as many are much better story wise than what we have been offered this time round.
Could be that episodes four and five will be fantastic, and if that happens I may have to eat my words. I hope that's the case, I really do. However, going on what we have received so far, I don't have high expectations.