Two attractive young adults found a moment alone, felt a stirring in their loins and went at it.
Most sex scenes are super forced and awkward. Watching two actors or in this case, cartoon characters, proposition each other would have been far more eye-roll inducing than what we got.
Here's the problem, we don't see a scene where Jane lick's Luke's face and there literally was no indication that the two would have a relationship together, so yeah it comes out of nowhere character wise for Jane and Luke.
Carlos said she was special. He knew his daughter well enough to understand that she was not built for the apocalypse. He shielded her not b… moreecause he was foolish but because she couldn't handle it. In episode 4, that comes to fruition she breaks down.
Is that not development?
Clem is thrust into a situation where you aren't in control and that's a problem for gamers at large.
I think you really are onto something here. It is a feeling that has been there ever since the beginning of Sesaon Two for me, not only in the story/choices aspect, but in how the "game" was designed this time around. I like movies. This is not supposed to be (yet) a movie.
Unfortunately, people die unavoidable mundane deaths everyday. Death is disappointing. That is the point.
Well then, it just seems like the endgame is truly the often japed-about "everyone dies" with an added "and we don't give a shit". I don't really like where that is going.
You're entitled to your opinion of course, but the argument you're presenting in the OP works just as well on bad writing as it does on good writing with purpose doesn't it? I don't think anyone is upset at the deaths simply not being glorious, it's the way and when they're executed so merely arguing that they're supposed to be mundane, well sure and I don't think people disagree with that. Not everyone goes out in a blaze of glory.
But when you start arguing that every death was executed well because it wouldn't matter how or when they died, any death is a good death because reality, well then your argument is as applicable to straight up bad writing as it is to good writing with purpose and thus isn't a very good argument.
Writing is art. Art is subjective. I enjoyed it. You did not. Opinions, we have them.
The only problem I had with the writing in this epi… moresode was not being able to say to Arvo "We didn't rob you! I gave the medicine back!". The rest I was perfectly okay with.
I'm not saying we should of gotten a full on sex scene with Luke and Jane, there was just no good build up to it and it feels forced, you have a right to an opinion, but I don't see it the way you do.
I just don't see it as a problem.
Two attractive young adults found a moment alone, felt a stirring in their loins and went at it.
Mos… moret sex scenes are super forced and awkward. Watching two actors or in this case, cartoon characters, proposition each other would have been far more eye-roll inducing than what we got.
I much prefer offscreen sex and innuendo.
My post was well thought out and my thoughts presented clearly without attacking anyone. Considering my OP has received more Upvotes than your responses, I'd say people think it was a good argument.
You tell me to cut the bullcrap and say it's bad writing and use sweeping generalizations while ignoring the characterization these characters did receive.
We're arguing tastes and opinions here. It's not "bad writing" simply because you say it is. This episode has been well received by critics and fans alike. The vocal minority here is simply bitter and jaded.
You're entitled to your opinion of course, but the argument you're presenting in the OP works just as well on bad writing as it does on good… more writing with purpose doesn't it? I don't think anyone is upset at the deaths simply not being glorious, it's the way and when they're executed so merely arguing that they're supposed to be mundane, well sure and I don't think people disagree with that. Not everyone goes out in a blaze of glory.
But when you start arguing that every death was executed well because it wouldn't matter how or when they died, any death is a good death because reality, well then your argument is as applicable to straight up bad writing as it is to good writing with purpose and thus isn't a very good argument.
My point being that almost all sex scenes feel forced.
I find it difficult to call something forced when all the viewer sees is the (hilarious) aftermath. I've been around long enough to realize that sex happens oftentime without build up. I've been to many parties where friends (both men and women) just vanish, then come back with a huge smile on their face having just gotten some random action.
Personally, it was one of my favourite scenes across both seasons. This season has had very little levity and this scene was exactly what the viewer needed before shit hit the fan.
I'm not saying we should of gotten a full on sex scene with Luke and Jane, there was just no good build up to it and it feels forced, you have a right to an opinion, but I don't see it the way you do.
You realise more people would read and vote on the OP than some random comment right?
I told you to cut the crap when you pretended to know what I wanted and told me that it didn't fit with TWD. What I want is proper character development and not having proper character development, not using the characters to their potential, is not contrary to the philosphy behind TWD.
The decision has received an above average amount of criticism and rightly so, because characterization has been bad throughout this season, with only a few actually interesting characters being properly developed and the execution of certain other concepts being botched too (as you alluded to in the OP, how much choices feel like they matter). It's nothing to do with your pondering in the OP that we're just hating because it reminds us we're mortal, I'm sorry but that's absurd. Killing off some of the best potential characters in the game without exploring their stories properly was a bad decision. Sorry but it was.
On the issue of choices mattering, they should feel like they matter. I'll draw your attention to 1. the fact that this isn't real life and 2. even in real life individual choices DO matter. They may not always lead to the results you want, but they alter the course of your personal history. In this season, they feel like they do not matter or change anything at all. And if they feel like that, why even make it a choice? Nobody likes being given a false choice and having it blatantly rubbed in their face that it didn't matter, because the amount of choices you get are limited in the first place. You don't have the freedom of choice and conversation that you have in real life, for obvious reasons, so when you get what appears to be a major choice it should do something because if it was this "real life" you keep idolizing you would have had free choice and you wouldn't even be in that stupid position in the first place. You were railroaded into a given scenario, at least when you give us a big "save X" choice, make it do something.
With determinate characters in season 1 you were given a straight up choice most of the time: Either "Save X or Save Y" or "Save X or Kill X". I suppose shawn was an exception to this. Anyway most of the time, the extra time you had with them was used to develop their character so that you'd feel sadder when they were eventually killed off. Carley/Doug, Ben, Duck and so on. In this season, as many people have pointed out, saving them occurred purely to prolong their existence, not make us care about them more. Alvin, after you save him he gets taken into carvers office and you don't see him again until he dies. Nick, says and does bugger all once you save him. Sarah, lasts for about another 3 scenes. It's not that you "can't save them" it's that you DO save them, at least for a while and then you get no payoff for doing so at all. "But there might not be a payoff in real life", this is not real life. It's a game. It's a story.
My post was well thought out and my thoughts presented clearly without attacking anyone. Considering my OP has received more Upvotes than yo… moreur responses, I'd say people think it was a good argument.
You tell me to cut the bullcrap and say it's bad writing and use sweeping generalizations while ignoring the characterization these characters did receive.
We're arguing tastes and opinions here. It's not "bad writing" simply because you say it is. This episode has been well received by critics and fans alike. The vocal minority here is simply bitter and jaded.
I thought this would be a ranting thread, but its not, which is good. I'm sure no matter how strong you think you are, being in the apocalypse does damage to you. You can't come out perfectly.
Exactly how I feel, though since it's a game... The writers could have made it more satisfying for the community.... But maybe they want that point across?
Kirkman's a terrible writer. I only enjoy the game because of its characters, who are far more likeable, IMO. I've avoided the comic book since issue six.
"Just because you saved her today, doesn't mean you saved her."
That is the theme of this season and it's an overarching theme of the entire series. Every minute you're alive is a minute you've stolen from someone else (zombies or survivors).
You want your choices to "matter" and they do, just not in the way you want. You say it's a story and it is, it's just not your story. Telltale has a plan and those that died aren't a part of it. They already played their part.
If you want to argue that your choices don't matter, then I would argue that they didn't matter in S1 either. Lee still dies no matter what you do.
You realise more people would read and vote on the OP than some random comment right?
I told you to cut the crap when you pretended to kn… moreow what I wanted and told me that it didn't fit with TWD. What I want is proper character development and not having proper character development, not using the characters to their potential, is not contrary to the philosphy behind TWD.
The decision has received an above average amount of criticism and rightly so, because characterization has been bad throughout this season, with only a few actually interesting characters being properly developed and the execution of certain other concepts being botched too (as you alluded to in the OP, how much choices feel like they matter). It's nothing to do with your pondering in the OP that we're just hating because it reminds us we're mortal, I'm sorry but that's absurd. Killing off some of the best potential characters in the game without exploring their storie… [view original content]
Did you not listen to Jane?
"Just because you saved her today, doesn't mean you saved her."
That is the theme of this season and it's … morean overarching theme of the entire series. Every minute you're alive is a minute you've stolen from someone else (zombies or survivors).
You want your choices to "matter" and they do, just not in the way you want. You say it's a story and it is, it's just not your story. Telltale has a plan and those that died aren't a part of it. They already played their part.
If you want to argue that your choices don't matter, then I would argue that they didn't matter in S1 either. Lee still dies no matter what you do.
Here:
My point being that almost all sex scenes feel forced.
I find it difficult to call something forced when all the viewer sees is the (hila… morerious) aftermath. I've been around long enough to realize that sex happens oftentime without build up. I've been to many parties where friends (both men and women) just vanish, then come back with a huge smile on their face having just gotten some random action.
Personally, it was one of my favourite scenes across both seasons. This season has had very little levity and this scene was exactly what the viewer needed before shit hit the fan.
Did you not listen to me? Because none of what you said was a counter.
This argument about how it's "their story", yes I know, I said as much already, that doesn't automatically mean it's well executed. Just saying "it's "X's" plan" doesn't make it a good plan that is exempt from criticism.
And yes, the choices matter in S1 for the reasons I spent the entire latter half of the post outlining. They don't change the overall outcome but they have an actual impact on the story and on you.
I have absolutely not the slightest idea what you're trying to prove by posting that comic panel. Nothing it says remotely goes against anything I've said. In fact, it looks like a nice little bit of character development.
Did you not listen to Jane?
"Just because you saved her today, doesn't mean you saved her."
That is the theme of this season and it's … morean overarching theme of the entire series. Every minute you're alive is a minute you've stolen from someone else (zombies or survivors).
You want your choices to "matter" and they do, just not in the way you want. You say it's a story and it is, it's just not your story. Telltale has a plan and those that died aren't a part of it. They already played their part.
If you want to argue that your choices don't matter, then I would argue that they didn't matter in S1 either. Lee still dies no matter what you do.
Here:
Oh... okay. So people in fiction just don't have sex without announcing it to the world beforehand?
If there was a build up, it wouldn't have been as good. The scene made me laugh because it came out of nowhere. Had Jane and Luke been flirting beforehand, it would have lost the levity it was meant to display.
That moment would have instead been "Oh. They had sex. Big surprise."
The point of that panel was to highlight how fleeting life is in the Walking Dead. You have to fight constantly. Always be on your toes because any moment could be your last. It's rather simple but you dismiss that as "bad writing".
You don't read the comics clearly so you haven't been exposed to how quickly some characters die without much development. It's how the series is, across all it's formats. If you think it's bad writing, you should check out now because it's probably not going to change anytime soon.
Did you not listen to me? Because none of what you said was a counter.
This argument about how it's "their story", yes I know, I said as … moremuch already, that doesn't automatically mean it's well executed. Just saying "it's "X's" plan" doesn't make it a good plan that is exempt from criticism.
And yes, the choices matter in S1 for the reasons I spent the entire latter half of the post outlining. They don't change the overall outcome but they have an actual impact on the story and on you.
I have absolutely not the slightest idea what you're trying to prove by posting that comic panel. Nothing it says remotely goes against anything I've said. In fact, it looks like a nice little bit of character development.
Ragnar every point you've made so far i agree with, people are pissed the way characters are dying because they think they somehow need to "handle" the group and lead them around by the nose. the people complaining are seeing the game mechanics completely wrong, what your actually doing is positioning yourself in the group to be next/with the others in the group that are within the same mind frame as yourself to better your chances of survival. your choices are what does this, you have no control over the group.
Oh... okay. So people in fiction just don't have sex without announcing it to the world beforehand?
If there was a build up, it wouldn't … morehave been as good. The scene made me laugh because it came out of nowhere. Had Jane and Luke been flirting beforehand, it would have lost the levity it was meant to display.
That moment would have instead been "Oh. They had sex. Big surprise."
Ragnar every point you've made so far i agree with, people are pissed the way characters are dying because they think they somehow need to "handle" the group and lead them around by the nose. the people complaining are seeing the game mechanics completely wrong, what your actually doing is positioning yourself in the group to be next/with the others in the group that are within the same mind frame as yourself to better your chances of survival. your choices are what does this, you have no control over the group.
Oh... okay. So people in fiction just don't have sex without announcing it to the world beforehand?
If there was a build up, it wouldn't … morehave been as good. The scene made me laugh because it came out of nowhere. Had Jane and Luke been flirting beforehand, it would have lost the levity it was meant to display.
That moment would have instead been "Oh. They had sex. Big surprise."
If there had been build up, there would have been some kind of consistency with Jane and Luke's characters, again this is not real life, Telltale is telling a story here and they're doing a mediocre job in my eyes.
Oh... okay. So people in fiction just don't have sex without announcing it to the world beforehand?
If there was a build up, it wouldn't … morehave been as good. The scene made me laugh because it came out of nowhere. Had Jane and Luke been flirting beforehand, it would have lost the levity it was meant to display.
That moment would have instead been "Oh. They had sex. Big surprise."
If the comic relies on setting up potentially interesting characters, but then kills them off in a wasted, lazy, unsatisfying way, then I guess the comic's writing is not very good then, the issue folks are having with Nick and Sarah's death is that not only are they killed off WAY before thier arc even ended but also because nobody really seems to care afterwards. Besides this is a game that was advertised on the choices you make and if the illusion of choice is not well handled, then we have a problem.
The point of that panel was to highlight how fleeting life is in the Walking Dead. You have to fight constantly. Always be on your toes beca… moreuse any moment could be your last. It's rather simple but you dismiss that as "bad writing".
You don't read the comics clearly so you haven't been exposed to how quickly some characters die without much development. It's how the series is, across all it's formats. If you think it's bad writing, you should check out now because it's probably not going to change anytime soon.
"It's art man, you just don't understand it like I do!"
Again you've completely missed the point of what is being said, or you've understood it and deliberately avoided it. It's not about characters dying, or indeed certain characters dying without full development. It's about the way they set up interesting characters then just kill them without developing their potential at all, leaving us with much less interesting characters that don't have nearly as much potential for growth and storytelling. The criticisms we're making of season 2 (and yes, only season 2) of the game I'm almost certain don't apply to the comic, judging from what you've posted of the comic here.
How is it not obvious to you that having characters with good storytelling potential is better than having ones without it.
The point of that panel was to highlight how fleeting life is in the Walking Dead. You have to fight constantly. Always be on your toes beca… moreuse any moment could be your last. It's rather simple but you dismiss that as "bad writing".
You don't read the comics clearly so you haven't been exposed to how quickly some characters die without much development. It's how the series is, across all it's formats. If you think it's bad writing, you should check out now because it's probably not going to change anytime soon.
Comments
I just don't see it as a problem.
Two attractive young adults found a moment alone, felt a stirring in their loins and went at it.
Most sex scenes are super forced and awkward. Watching two actors or in this case, cartoon characters, proposition each other would have been far more eye-roll inducing than what we got.
I much prefer offscreen sex and innuendo.
I am not kidding m8..you have changed my view about this game o_o
No, it's a missed opportunity.
I think you really are onto something here. It is a feeling that has been there ever since the beginning of Sesaon Two for me, not only in the story/choices aspect, but in how the "game" was designed this time around. I like movies. This is not supposed to be (yet) a movie.
Well then, it just seems like the endgame is truly the often japed-about "everyone dies" with an added "and we don't give a shit". I don't really like where that is going.
You're entitled to your opinion of course, but the argument you're presenting in the OP works just as well on bad writing as it does on good writing with purpose doesn't it? I don't think anyone is upset at the deaths simply not being glorious, it's the way and when they're executed so merely arguing that they're supposed to be mundane, well sure and I don't think people disagree with that. Not everyone goes out in a blaze of glory.
But when you start arguing that every death was executed well because it wouldn't matter how or when they died, any death is a good death because reality, well then your argument is as applicable to straight up bad writing as it is to good writing with purpose and thus isn't a very good argument.
I'm not saying we should of gotten a full on sex scene with Luke and Jane, there was just no good build up to it and it feels forced, you have a right to an opinion, but I don't see it the way you do.
My post was well thought out and my thoughts presented clearly without attacking anyone. Considering my OP has received more Upvotes than your responses, I'd say people think it was a good argument.
You tell me to cut the bullcrap and say it's bad writing and use sweeping generalizations while ignoring the characterization these characters did receive.
We're arguing tastes and opinions here. It's not "bad writing" simply because you say it is. This episode has been well received by critics and fans alike. The vocal minority here is simply bitter and jaded.
My point being that almost all sex scenes feel forced.
I find it difficult to call something forced when all the viewer sees is the (hilarious) aftermath. I've been around long enough to realize that sex happens oftentime without build up. I've been to many parties where friends (both men and women) just vanish, then come back with a huge smile on their face having just gotten some random action.
Personally, it was one of my favourite scenes across both seasons. This season has had very little levity and this scene was exactly what the viewer needed before shit hit the fan.
You realise more people would read and vote on the OP than some random comment right?
I told you to cut the crap when you pretended to know what I wanted and told me that it didn't fit with TWD. What I want is proper character development and not having proper character development, not using the characters to their potential, is not contrary to the philosphy behind TWD.
The decision has received an above average amount of criticism and rightly so, because characterization has been bad throughout this season, with only a few actually interesting characters being properly developed and the execution of certain other concepts being botched too (as you alluded to in the OP, how much choices feel like they matter). It's nothing to do with your pondering in the OP that we're just hating because it reminds us we're mortal, I'm sorry but that's absurd. Killing off some of the best potential characters in the game without exploring their stories properly was a bad decision. Sorry but it was.
On the issue of choices mattering, they should feel like they matter. I'll draw your attention to 1. the fact that this isn't real life and 2. even in real life individual choices DO matter. They may not always lead to the results you want, but they alter the course of your personal history. In this season, they feel like they do not matter or change anything at all. And if they feel like that, why even make it a choice? Nobody likes being given a false choice and having it blatantly rubbed in their face that it didn't matter, because the amount of choices you get are limited in the first place. You don't have the freedom of choice and conversation that you have in real life, for obvious reasons, so when you get what appears to be a major choice it should do something because if it was this "real life" you keep idolizing you would have had free choice and you wouldn't even be in that stupid position in the first place. You were railroaded into a given scenario, at least when you give us a big "save X" choice, make it do something.
With determinate characters in season 1 you were given a straight up choice most of the time: Either "Save X or Save Y" or "Save X or Kill X". I suppose shawn was an exception to this. Anyway most of the time, the extra time you had with them was used to develop their character so that you'd feel sadder when they were eventually killed off. Carley/Doug, Ben, Duck and so on. In this season, as many people have pointed out, saving them occurred purely to prolong their existence, not make us care about them more. Alvin, after you save him he gets taken into carvers office and you don't see him again until he dies. Nick, says and does bugger all once you save him. Sarah, lasts for about another 3 scenes. It's not that you "can't save them" it's that you DO save them, at least for a while and then you get no payoff for doing so at all. "But there might not be a payoff in real life", this is not real life. It's a game. It's a story.
I thought this would be a ranting thread, but its not, which is good. I'm sure no matter how strong you think you are, being in the apocalypse does damage to you. You can't come out perfectly.
Exactly how I feel, though since it's a game... The writers could have made it more satisfying for the community.... But maybe they want that point across?
Everyone has their own opinion.
Did you not listen to Jane?
"Just because you saved her today, doesn't mean you saved her."
That is the theme of this season and it's an overarching theme of the entire series. Every minute you're alive is a minute you've stolen from someone else (zombies or survivors).
You want your choices to "matter" and they do, just not in the way you want. You say it's a story and it is, it's just not your story. Telltale has a plan and those that died aren't a part of it. They already played their part.
If you want to argue that your choices don't matter, then I would argue that they didn't matter in S1 either. Lee still dies no matter what you do.
Here:
You STILL don't understand.
This is a fictional story, NOT REAL LIFE.
Did you not listen to me? Because none of what you said was a counter.
This argument about how it's "their story", yes I know, I said as much already, that doesn't automatically mean it's well executed. Just saying "it's "X's" plan" doesn't make it a good plan that is exempt from criticism.
And yes, the choices matter in S1 for the reasons I spent the entire latter half of the post outlining. They don't change the overall outcome but they have an actual impact on the story and on you.
I have absolutely not the slightest idea what you're trying to prove by posting that comic panel. Nothing it says remotely goes against anything I've said. In fact, it looks like a nice little bit of character development.
Oh... okay. So people in fiction just don't have sex without announcing it to the world beforehand?
If there was a build up, it wouldn't have been as good. The scene made me laugh because it came out of nowhere. Had Jane and Luke been flirting beforehand, it would have lost the levity it was meant to display.
That moment would have instead been "Oh. They had sex. Big surprise."
The point of that panel was to highlight how fleeting life is in the Walking Dead. You have to fight constantly. Always be on your toes because any moment could be your last. It's rather simple but you dismiss that as "bad writing".
You don't read the comics clearly so you haven't been exposed to how quickly some characters die without much development. It's how the series is, across all it's formats. If you think it's bad writing, you should check out now because it's probably not going to change anytime soon.
Ragnar every point you've made so far i agree with, people are pissed the way characters are dying because they think they somehow need to "handle" the group and lead them around by the nose. the people complaining are seeing the game mechanics completely wrong, what your actually doing is positioning yourself in the group to be next/with the others in the group that are within the same mind frame as yourself to better your chances of survival. your choices are what does this, you have no control over the group.
Ragnar every point you've made so far i agree with, people are pissed the way characters are dying because they think they somehow need to "handle" the group and lead them around by the nose. the people complaining are seeing the game mechanics completely wrong, what your actually doing is positioning yourself in the group to be next/with the others in the group that are within the same mind frame as yourself to better your chances of survival. your choices are what does this, you have no control over the group.
If there had been build up, there would have been some kind of consistency with Jane and Luke's characters, again this is not real life, Telltale is telling a story here and they're doing a mediocre job in my eyes.
If the comic relies on setting up potentially interesting characters, but then kills them off in a wasted, lazy, unsatisfying way, then I guess the comic's writing is not very good then, the issue folks are having with Nick and Sarah's death is that not only are they killed off WAY before thier arc even ended but also because nobody really seems to care afterwards. Besides this is a game that was advertised on the choices you make and if the illusion of choice is not well handled, then we have a problem.
"It's art man, you just don't understand it like I do!"
Again you've completely missed the point of what is being said, or you've understood it and deliberately avoided it. It's not about characters dying, or indeed certain characters dying without full development. It's about the way they set up interesting characters then just kill them without developing their potential at all, leaving us with much less interesting characters that don't have nearly as much potential for growth and storytelling. The criticisms we're making of season 2 (and yes, only season 2) of the game I'm almost certain don't apply to the comic, judging from what you've posted of the comic here.
How is it not obvious to you that having characters with good storytelling potential is better than having ones without it.