Yeah, I think we’re both pretty tired of long rants by now. Agree to disagree and all that jazz. However, I can’t accept your claim that some pro-Lilly arguments are “hypocritical”. I assume that you’re referring to how some people bring up Lilly’s trauma as a reason for her craziness yet hate Kenny despite HIS trauma, but you’ll find that plenty of people pity BOTH Lilly and Kenny because they both lost their families.
In most arguments by Lilly fans defending Lilly, they criticize the flaws in other characters to make a case for her but yet fail to acknowledge that Lilly has the same flaws too. It's not only the trauma, there are other arguments that make them hypocritical, these are some examples of my arguments against Lilly fans. Lilly Fan 1: Kenny's a cold hearted fuck was willing to let a girl get eaten in Episode 3Me: Didn't Lilly do the same in Episode 1?Lilly Fan 2: Kenny is a selfish dick who'd leave a little girl defenseless and refused to find herMe: As opposed to Lilly who left that same little girl to dieLilly Fan 3: Kenny's a bad friend, he'll leave you countless times because you don't agree with himMe: Remind me where Lilly is again even if you agreed with her?. These are some of the examples, there are others but I can't be able to find them as most of them are long and I don't have much time. You for example, you said you found Kenny's hatred of Ben disgusting but did you acknowledge that Lilly did the same when you wrote that?
And just because I find Kenny’s hatred of Ben disgusting doesn’t mean I don’t understand why he felt that way. Just like how, as I said multiple times, I find Lilly’s murdering Carley just as disgusting yet still understand why she did it.
So you're comparing cold blooded murder to a guy hating someone that got his family killed? Did Kenny do anything to harm to Ben? Did he attempt to take his life? What did Ben do for Kenny to hate him? Got his family killed! What did Carley do for Lilly to kill her? Nothing, absolutely nothing! There was a reason behind Kenny's reaction and that's why I understand it, there was no reason for Lilly killing Carley other than being a cold hearted bitch with a thirst for murder.
And why did Ben kiss up to Kenny? Because he knew he was partly to blame for Kat and Duck’s deaths, of course. I never implied anywhere that Ben had no part in their deaths, I just criticised Kenny for placing ALL the blame on him, which was completely undeserved.
Ben believed he deserved it because he said nothing to defend himself. He told Kenny at the worst moment because that's how much the guilt was eating him up.
By the way, apparently the italics and such are temporarily gone because the mods needed to disable format editing after someone hacked the game and released spoiler for ep.4. To prevent people from posting spoilery pictures or something.
Good thing it's back on, it's makes things easier Hope no one was spoiled by the hacking.
Yeah, I think we’re both pretty tired of long rants by now. Agree to disagree and all that jazz. However, I can’t accept your claim that som… moree pro-Lilly arguments are “hypocritical”. I assume that you’re referring to how some people bring up Lilly’s trauma as a reason for her craziness yet hate Kenny despite HIS trauma, but you’ll find that plenty of people pity BOTH Lilly and Kenny because they both lost their families.
Case in point, I like both Lilly and Kenny’s characters, faults and all.
And just because I find Kenny’s hatred of Ben disgusting doesn’t mean I don’t understand why he felt that way. Just like how, as I said multiple times, I find Lilly’s murdering Carley just as disgusting yet still understand why she did it.
And why did Ben kiss up to Kenny? Because he knew he was partly to blame for Kat and Duck’s deaths, of course. I never implied anywhere that Ben had no part in their deaths, I just criticised Kenny for p… [view original content]
You're right in some of your points, but I still cannot find it in my heart to forgive someone who shot another (in my case Carley) in the face in the middle of an arguement just like that. If Carley had a gun pointed at Lily, and the tension was really high that it looked like she was going to shoot too at any moment, I wouldn't be so angry probably. I would give Lily the benefit of the doubt and say she just wanted to defend herself. But that wasn't the case. She outright murdered Carley. I would never trust someone like that ever again. I support this, knowing that even if you decide to keep her with you, she betrays you by stealing the RV. Now what kind of a person does that makes her?
I might be willing to forgive her, IF she were to do something really selfless and self sacrificing that would possibly redeem her for what she did.
Personally, I have forgiven Lilly due to numerous reasons and despite how much I grew quite attached to Carley (and Lilly)
but I see where you're coming from and you've made many good points. No matter how much I like Lilly, I'm not making excuses for her, it was murder. Not cold blooded, because they were in a heated argument, but definately murder.
Now what kind of a person does that makes her?
I have to say though, I don't think Lilly when we first met her, would have shot Carley. This Lilly is kind and caring, she's nice to Lee afterwards (if the player chooses not to call her any names) and she feels sorry for Clementine. She encourages the group and tells them, she thinks they'll all be OK. But after seeing her father murdered (for the good of the group or not) and not being given any kind of support, and still taunted by Kenny I think she just snapped. It's not an excuse and I'm not justifying it but she clearly wasn't sound of mind or sane when she shot Carley. This is why I believe she's not truly a bad person.
At least you are willing to forgive her if she were to redeem herself.
You're right in some of your points, but I still cannot find it in my heart to forgive someone who shot another (in my case Carley) in the f… moreace in the middle of an arguement just like that. If Carley had a gun pointed at Lily, and the tension was really high that it looked like she was going to shoot too at any moment, I wouldn't be so angry probably. I would give Lily the benefit of the doubt and say she just wanted to defend herself. But that wasn't the case. She outright murdered Carley. I would never trust someone like that ever again. I support this, knowing that even if you decide to keep her with you, she betrays you by stealing the RV. Now what kind of a person does that makes her?
I might be willing to forgive her, IF she were to do something really selfless and self sacrificing that would possibly redeem her for what she did.
Yes, you're right she wasn't always like that before, I know that. I should have said this earlier maybe: there were many times I supported Lily, I was against killing her father and I tried to comfort her when she was grieving. I was also honest with her about my past. I trusted her. But she became a highly paranoid and angry person despite all my attempts to help her. She just lost it.. I know not everyone have the mental strentgh to go through such painful trauma as she did. I wish I could help her, I never hated Lily. I still don't, but what she did was just not morally acceptable for me and therefore I could not risk having her around, not while Clementine with me. When I said "Now what kind of a person does that makes her?" I wanted to point out the fact that even if you forgive her and take her with you, she steals the RV and let you and others down. So I believe from the moment she pulled the trigger, that Lily we knew before, was no more.
I think this deserves a thumbs up.
Personally, I have forgiven Lilly due to numerous reasons and despite how much I grew quite attached t… moreo Carley (and Lilly)
but I see where you're coming from and you've made many good points. No matter how much I like Lilly, I'm not making excuses for her, it was murder. Not cold blooded, because they were in a heated argument, but definately murder.
Now what kind of a person does that makes her?
I have to say though, I don't think Lilly when we first met her, would have shot Carley. This Lilly is kind and caring, she's nice to Lee afterwards (if the player chooses not to call her any names) and she feels sorry for Clementine. She encourages the group and tells them, she thinks they'll all be OK. But after seeing her father murdered (for the good of the group or not) and not being given any kind of support, and still taunted by Kenny I think she just snapped. It's not an excuse and I'm not… [view original content]
Lee killed a man in a fit of anger, and repented for it. We've forgiven Nick for killing Matthew. By this point, if Lilly has shown genuine remorse for what she did and saved other peoples' lives since then, I'd forgive her.
At the end of season 2 ep1 i was like oooh man..it must be Lilly who's gonna return.. but no it was Kenny (and i was happy for it). I never actually liked her but i think i could forgive her for killing poor Carley.
I felt really bad for Lee's role in killing Larry (even though that scumbag was a genuine danger to the group and a bad influence on his daughter) and every playthrough I've had makes me feel like I failed when she inevitably snaps. Whether it was attempting to kill Ben and instead killing Doug, or murdering Carley just for insulting her, she crossed a point of no return in Lee's eyes and I left her behind so that she could never endanger the group again.
It's funny. I found Kenny to be a good man at heart and he did the right thing by killing Larry, but it makes me wonder if Lilly would have eventually been able to stand up to her father and retain her kind qualities if Kenny didn't splatter her with Larry's brains.
At the end of season 2 ep1 i was like oooh man..it must be Lilly who's gonna return.. but no it was Kenny (and i was happy for it). I never actually liked her but i think i could forgive her for killing poor Carley.
True, but Nick's case was different than Lily's. Matthew was armed for one, he was a total stranger to the group, Nick only saw him from the distance, holding a gun near his friends, he paniced and shot. It was a stupid thing to do, but he was trying to (in his ownb head) protect his friends. So I think it wasn't as cold hearted as what Lily did. She shot someone the group considered as a friend. Someone who had been with them for a long time. Carley/Doug was unarmed. She killed them based on pure suspicion and outright anger. Lee's case looks more similar to Lily's however, as far as I know, he said they got in a fight and he killed the man by accident. Sure, it's still murder, but that's not the same as looking someone in the eye and pulling the trigger. Also Lee, I believe, redeems himself in our eyes by selflessly taking care of a little child and ultimately sacrificing himself for her. This is just my humble opinion.
Lee killed a man in a fit of anger, and repented for it. We've forgiven Nick for killing Matthew. By this point, if Lilly has shown genuine remorse for what she did and saved other peoples' lives since then, I'd forgive her.
I'm still pissed about what she did to Doug and to Carley from my different playthroughs but, with a clear head, I've forgiven her. Still, if she were to show up and I'm playing as Clementine, I'm going to play things from her point of view and how I think she'd feel about Lilly.
Anyways, I personally think it's better to leave her gone and let the fans think about what happened to her.. Makes the power of that scene stronger, when you never know what happened to her.
Lee killed a guy in a fight by accident with reason and showed remorse.
Lilly killed a girl in cold blood on purpose with no reason and s… morehowed no remorse.
Lee already redeemed himself by taking care of a little girl, what did Lilly do? left that same little girl to die.
I felt really bad for Lee's role in killing Larry (even though that scumbag was a genuine danger to the group and a bad influence on his dau… moreghter) and every playthrough I've had makes me feel like I failed when she inevitably snaps. Whether it was attempting to kill Ben and instead killing Doug, or murdering Carley just for insulting her, she crossed a point of no return in Lee's eyes and I left her behind so that she could never endanger the group again.
It's funny. I found Kenny to be a good man at heart and he did the right thing by killing Larry, but it makes me wonder if Lilly would have eventually been able to stand up to her father and retain her kind qualities if Kenny didn't splatter her with Larry's brains.
I'm still pissed about what she did to Doug and to Carley from my different playthroughs but, with a clear head, I've forgiven her. Still, i… moref she were to show up and I'm playing as Clementine, I'm going to play things from her point of view and how I think she'd feel about Lilly.
Anyways, I personally think it's better to leave her gone and let the fans think about what happened to her.. Makes the power of that scene stronger, when you never know what happened to her.
Yes, I 100% agree with you here, very well said and very true as well in my opinion. I don't think I could have put it better myself. As for "Now what kind of a person does that makes her?" sorry, I may have misunderstood you there. I think we should have been given an option to help her grieve. It could have helped, but I suppose because there can't be different endings we can't offer her support and perhaps prevent Carley's death.
Yes, you're right she wasn't always like that before, I know that. I should have said this earlier maybe: there were many times I supported … moreLily, I was against killing her father and I tried to comfort her when she was grieving. I was also honest with her about my past. I trusted her. But she became a highly paranoid and angry person despite all my attempts to help her. She just lost it.. I know not everyone have the mental strentgh to go through such painful trauma as she did. I wish I could help her, I never hated Lily. I still don't, but what she did was just not morally acceptable for me and therefore I could not risk having her around, not while Clementine with me. When I said "Now what kind of a person does that makes her?" I wanted to point out the fact that even if you forgive her and take her with you, she steals the RV and let you and others down. So I believe from the moment she pulled the trigger, that Lily we knew before, was no more.
Comments
Me too, After Nick, i like Carley and for killing her, I can never forgive Lilly, too.
In most arguments by Lilly fans defending Lilly, they criticize the flaws in other characters to make a case for her but yet fail to acknowledge that Lilly has the same flaws too. It's not only the trauma, there are other arguments that make them hypocritical, these are some examples of my arguments against Lilly fans. Lilly Fan 1: Kenny's a cold hearted fuck was willing to let a girl get eaten in Episode 3 Me: Didn't Lilly do the same in Episode 1? Lilly Fan 2: Kenny is a selfish dick who'd leave a little girl defenseless and refused to find her Me: As opposed to Lilly who left that same little girl to die Lilly Fan 3: Kenny's a bad friend, he'll leave you countless times because you don't agree with him Me: Remind me where Lilly is again even if you agreed with her?. These are some of the examples, there are others but I can't be able to find them as most of them are long and I don't have much time. You for example, you said you found Kenny's hatred of Ben disgusting but did you acknowledge that Lilly did the same when you wrote that?
So you're comparing cold blooded murder to a guy hating someone that got his family killed? Did Kenny do anything to harm to Ben? Did he attempt to take his life? What did Ben do for Kenny to hate him? Got his family killed! What did Carley do for Lilly to kill her? Nothing, absolutely nothing! There was a reason behind Kenny's reaction and that's why I understand it, there was no reason for Lilly killing Carley other than being a cold hearted bitch with a thirst for murder.
Ben believed he deserved it because he said nothing to defend himself. He told Kenny at the worst moment because that's how much the guilt was eating him up.
Good thing it's back on, it's makes things easier
Hope no one was spoiled by the hacking.
He's Tyreese also everyone thought he was dead until they found him alive and well.
You're right in some of your points, but I still cannot find it in my heart to forgive someone who shot another (in my case Carley) in the face in the middle of an arguement just like that. If Carley had a gun pointed at Lily, and the tension was really high that it looked like she was going to shoot too at any moment, I wouldn't be so angry probably. I would give Lily the benefit of the doubt and say she just wanted to defend herself. But that wasn't the case. She outright murdered Carley. I would never trust someone like that ever again. I support this, knowing that even if you decide to keep her with you, she betrays you by stealing the RV. Now what kind of a person does that makes her?
I might be willing to forgive her, IF she were to do something really selfless and self sacrificing that would possibly redeem her for what she did.
I think this deserves a thumbs up.
Personally, I have forgiven Lilly due to numerous reasons and despite how much I grew quite attached to Carley (and Lilly)
but I see where you're coming from and you've made many good points. No matter how much I like Lilly, I'm not making excuses for her, it was murder. Not cold blooded, because they were in a heated argument, but definately murder.
I have to say though, I don't think Lilly when we first met her, would have shot Carley. This Lilly is kind and caring, she's nice to Lee afterwards (if the player chooses not to call her any names) and she feels sorry for Clementine. She encourages the group and tells them, she thinks they'll all be OK. But after seeing her father murdered (for the good of the group or not) and not being given any kind of support, and still taunted by Kenny I think she just snapped. It's not an excuse and I'm not justifying it but she clearly wasn't sound of mind or sane when she shot Carley. This is why I believe she's not truly a bad person.
At least you are willing to forgive her if she were to redeem herself.
Yes, you're right she wasn't always like that before, I know that. I should have said this earlier maybe: there were many times I supported Lily, I was against killing her father and I tried to comfort her when she was grieving. I was also honest with her about my past. I trusted her. But she became a highly paranoid and angry person despite all my attempts to help her. She just lost it.. I know not everyone have the mental strentgh to go through such painful trauma as she did. I wish I could help her, I never hated Lily. I still don't, but what she did was just not morally acceptable for me and therefore I could not risk having her around, not while Clementine with me. When I said "Now what kind of a person does that makes her?" I wanted to point out the fact that even if you forgive her and take her with you, she steals the RV and let you and others down. So I believe from the moment she pulled the trigger, that Lily we knew before, was no more.
Lee killed a man in a fit of anger, and repented for it. We've forgiven Nick for killing Matthew. By this point, if Lilly has shown genuine remorse for what she did and saved other peoples' lives since then, I'd forgive her.
At the end of season 2 ep1 i was like oooh man..it must be Lilly who's gonna return.. but no it was Kenny (and i was happy for it). I never actually liked her but i think i could forgive her for killing poor Carley.
I felt really bad for Lee's role in killing Larry (even though that scumbag was a genuine danger to the group and a bad influence on his daughter) and every playthrough I've had makes me feel like I failed when she inevitably snaps. Whether it was attempting to kill Ben and instead killing Doug, or murdering Carley just for insulting her, she crossed a point of no return in Lee's eyes and I left her behind so that she could never endanger the group again.
It's funny. I found Kenny to be a good man at heart and he did the right thing by killing Larry, but it makes me wonder if Lilly would have eventually been able to stand up to her father and retain her kind qualities if Kenny didn't splatter her with Larry's brains.
True, but Nick's case was different than Lily's. Matthew was armed for one, he was a total stranger to the group, Nick only saw him from the distance, holding a gun near his friends, he paniced and shot. It was a stupid thing to do, but he was trying to (in his ownb head) protect his friends. So I think it wasn't as cold hearted as what Lily did. She shot someone the group considered as a friend. Someone who had been with them for a long time. Carley/Doug was unarmed. She killed them based on pure suspicion and outright anger. Lee's case looks more similar to Lily's however, as far as I know, he said they got in a fight and he killed the man by accident. Sure, it's still murder, but that's not the same as looking someone in the eye and pulling the trigger. Also Lee, I believe, redeems himself in our eyes by selflessly taking care of a little child and ultimately sacrificing himself for her. This is just my humble opinion.
I'm still pissed about what she did to Doug and to Carley from my different playthroughs but, with a clear head, I've forgiven her. Still, if she were to show up and I'm playing as Clementine, I'm going to play things from her point of view and how I think she'd feel about Lilly.
Anyways, I personally think it's better to leave her gone and let the fans think about what happened to her.. Makes the power of that scene stronger, when you never know what happened to her.
"Killing is bad no matter what"
It was fucked up... i can't blame anyone in that situation. I still have my faith in Kenny, he's a good man.
Nope I hate her and I just want her to come back so that
we can kill her !!
She killed Carley that fucking bitch
Well if we don't see her again I hope she's dead
Yes, I 100% agree with you here, very well said and very true as well in my opinion. I don't think I could have put it better myself. As for "Now what kind of a person does that makes her?" sorry, I may have misunderstood you there. I think we should have been given an option to help her grieve. It could have helped, but I suppose because there can't be different endings we can't offer her support and perhaps prevent Carley's death.