My Gripes With Clem As The Protagonist
First of all I LOVE Clem, but I just don't think she should be the next protagonist, and here's why:
First, she has a set personality. I hate it when people play and do things Clem would do instead of what THEY would do. The whole point of the interactivity and choices are to see what YOU would do, not what a little girl would do. (Honestly though you can play as you wish this is just a gripe I have) When you get bit as Lee I said, "Oh no I got bit!". But say for instance if Clem got bit, I would say, " Oh no CLEM got bit".
Second, it seems unrealistic how much strength she has for a little kid. It feels like at some points she's almost as strong as Lee!
Third, her character isn't developing like it should be, and I think it's because she's the protagonist. Or it could just be bad writing because they overlooked her. Because Lee had good character developement. But if they made her an NPC a d added hubs with more dialogue, her character could be given the chance to develops further.
And Finally it seems like since she's such a beloved character, it seems as if she wouldn't get blamed for accidentally killing someone (Kenny was actually right about that when he yelled at her). And if she gets hurt at all, GOD HELP THE FORUMS! Because of this Telltale has to be careful with when she gets hurt and how serious it is. They are restricting themselves by not being able to make her one armed like Lee or beat the shit out of people like Lee.
So yeah that's why I think we need a new protagonist for season 3 instead of Clem
Edit: Also it seems the consequences for her actions are lessened (except the Sarita thing) because she's a kid
Comments
I agree completely but apart from a few reasonable people you won't find any other support
on this forums where people are obsessed with Clementine
I don't know, I play Clementine the way I would act. Though in all fairness, I'm constantly accused of being a little girl.
Kenny wasn't right to yell at her, at least in my game, because I'm one of three people who didn't cut off Sarita's arm.
I'll concede to the strength bit. Though there was the water jug and the being thrown back by a rifle.
What makes you say Clementine doesn't have good character development? What makes you say Lee does? (Not saying either aren't the case, just what's your argument)
I don't agree with you... i think Clem is unique, and i don't think Telltale will start a new story with a new protagonist...
When I played as Lee I felt tough and strong.. But when I play as Clem I actually feel cautious and scared for what could happen to her, I fear and question everything around me in season 2 which is a good thing since in an apocalypse you are meant to feel vulnerable.
Who the hell would beat up a child outside of psychopaths? Which Clem for the most part has avoided or attacked? (Carver, Winston, Troy)
Thing is, the player is Clem. So them wanting to do what Clem would do, is basically what their interpretation of Clementine is. Is she sassy, depressed, or trying to be kind and nice still? How did Lee's adventure change your outlook on survivors and the like, which can be conveyed through Clem since. You know. She was there. Sure she was established as a character somewhat, but only as much as Lee was a murderer who killed his ex-wife's boyfriend since she cheated on him and was a college history professor who adored his job. And we ourselves got to develop Clementine somewhat to our likings as Lee.
Clem does have superhuman strength though. And her character is developing. Didn't you see Kenny yell at her? And the fact you could lash back at Kenny in his tent, or play traumatized and silent where Kenny forgives you? Do you be an optimist and try to save Sarah, or do you give in at any point and condemn her to death as pessimist? Or are you a realist and give up the second time she's in danger?
And what are her consequences? She stole from the Cabin Group to survive, and they were going to bring her in anyway according to their conversation. But from that point on? She either 'saves' Nick or 'helps' Pete, deals with Carver when he intrudes, can choose to surrender or fight back when the Cabin is invaded, steals the Radio, and helps secure a place for Rebecca's baby and get her water and blankets. Plus she constantly kills Walkers and helps like a badass. She doesn't have too much to answer for, and Sarita's demise did get attributed to Clementine.
Clem's weak tbh and LOL @whoever's obsessed with the character.
Wow, edgy.
Lee went from being a convicted felon to being a caring father figure that was willing to do ANYTHING for Clem. Clem (just in season 2) went from being Clem to being Clem.
Yes the character is starting to develope but not as much as Lee had or even as Clem had in season 1
I still disagree with Clementine being as strong as a grown man. I think theyre very careful about making her wily rather than strong as a little girl who is a survivor would be. But as for her being a protagonist, I have no problem whatsoever playing as her. I just hope that if she is the protag next season, that she is a little bit older.
Well, that really depends on how you play. Him being a convicted felon offers an interesting side story, but depending on how you play, he could be (and that suggests was) wrathful and violent, or he could always be kind and caring, which would lead you to believe that the murder he committed was essentially a big mistake. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't know how the fight went down - it could easily have been manslaughter [IE punched him and he fell back on a table or something sharp or the such] and Lee was only given murder since the victim was a senator.)
This seems like because of your lack of connection between the character and yourself. You couldn't establish a good empathy with Clementine and you feel detached from her. In other words, you are looking for what you had with Lee. But there are many people who have connected with Clementine quite well. Including me.
I understand it, there are times it seems she's a bit too strong for certain tasks but this is just because of some lazy writing I think, they want to show Clem capable and strong despite her age, but they could choose better ways to show it, instead of breaking in doors etc.
I disagree. She's actually doing quite better than I imagined at the begining of S2. Again, you're comparing her to Lee which prevents you from noticing the details in her personality. Some people complain about the way she lacks emotions, but I don't think they are picking the right dialogues which lets her express her feelings. For example: In the dinner table when conversing with Luke or at the couch when talking with Kenny about the past. There some comments she makes in such a convincing tone and expression that it breaks my heart. With that said, it is quite understandable for her to become jaded after everything she's been through, don't forget the fact that she had been traumatized multiple times by now, it got to take its toll on her. (look at the other examples, how much they are changed after suffering losses: Kenny, Christa, Sarah etc.)
Kenny was furious, depressed and going through a trauma after Sarita's death. It's called grieving and everyone has a different coping mechanism to deal with it. He had to live through that so many times before he was basically just making no sense. He later admits how broken he is and that forgets that Clem is just a little kid (despite her ability to take care of herself more than any three adults put together-- his words, not mine) inside the tent, if you don't start yelling him and calmly wait for him to come to his senses.
ClementineForLife
I don't want a new protagonist, if it does not seem realistic to you then why not have an older Clementine for Season 3? Maybe have her be 14 or 13. There's already so much they can do with her character, I agree in season 2 she lacked some character development. She's only 11, I want to see Clementine grow up! Instead of having Telltale abandoning her character when she's only 11. Anyways I agree with what you said about her strength but by 14 in the ZA she could be pretty strong.
Unless you can provide examples to discuss, I'll go with my opinion that Clementine's character has developed extraordinarily.
I dont quite agree with this. I think Clementine has changed as much as a growing girl needs to. She started off as this frightened little girl who was dependent on Lee to take care of her and now she's more or less pretty independent and strong willed. She's retained her helpfulness and compassionate nature but she doesnt need some big change to her character to be a different person. And its not like Lee was this serial killer type. He started off being this caring person. His history is that he was a convicted felon but that's not who he was as a person. He didnt even go to prison. He seems to me to be pretty consistent. Caring and mild-mannered for the most part but can become enraged when pushed.
I'm talking about season 2 only. Overall she definitely had development but not so much exclusively in season 2
I just made thus thread to vent for why I don't want Clem to be the new protagonist. You can disagree if you like, everybody has differing opinions.
I agree with you 100%. I love Clementine, but there is no character development in her! The only development we saw was when she was still like s1 Clem at the beginning, but then there was a huge ass time skip and now we see a completely different girl!
Clem was great but I think TT has had their run with her. They should move on to a new character which can grow and have an impact like Lee did. Unfortunately, Telltale knows Clem is their cash cow so thats why they will most likely not kill her off.
The only "character development" we saw in Clem was that she was still like s1 Clem we all love and want to take care of in the beginning of ep.1, then there is a time skip and we see what seems like a completely different girl. Throughout s2 we haven't seen Clem grow at all.
In season 1 Lee sent from a convicted felon to a father figure, Clem went from an innocent little girl to being able to survive better. In season 2 Clem already starts off kind of hardened so you don't really see the development since its off screen. The yelling at Kenny isn't really much in terms of character development besides showing that she ain't gonna take shit because it wasn't her fault. Her character hasn't developed MUCH only a little bit because she remains relatively the same it seems from episode 1-3 she starts to show a little development in 4 but not enough to say she completely changed into someone else like Kenny did. Also sorry if I can't reply to your reply because I'm on vacation and my cousins place has shit internet
Lee had a back story not necessarily a set personality. Whereas you played alongside Clem for 5 episodes and you didn't play Lee when he murder the state senator
She has grown some in Season 2.
I will admit though, she's definitely changed by the time we get to REALLY play as her. Which had to happen to an extent so she's more survivable and flexible as a protagonist.
The fact she threatens Rebecca over the father of her baby is just evidence of how much she changed off-screen.
But while she can lament about the past she's also shown herself as capable, extremely so.
Thing is with Lee and Clem their characters tend to be determinant and the people who find this weird can't adjust to the timeskip and that determinant personalities come with protagonists. Sure there's an underlying character beneath everything that grows a bit, but you can play them differently.
Lee can be a straight-up murderer, killing infront of children and letting his friends become cannibals, hiding his past from them, keeping food for himself and not for Clem, telling Clem over and over her parents are dead, letting a girl be devoured alive just so he can grab some more food/meds, push Omid off into a train and hurt his leg, berate Molly for keeping secrets, toss Ben off to die, and try hide his Walker Bite. He can be played as a total asshole.
Clementine can decline food to a starving dog, aggressively threaten Alvin and Sarah for supplies, disregard Nick's apology, threaten Rebecca over the father of her child, chide Nick/Pete in the Shed/Truck, ignore Sarah and make her feel anxious about her dad, let Carver right on into the house, etc, etc.
Plus Episode 5 hasn't been released as of yet so we don't have a big giant notion on what we've been leading up to outside of Wellington. Growing Up, probably. I mean sure Lee was a relative 'father' figure but Episode 5 was the one that showed that he'd fight through hell to get Clem back like a father would.
All in all though, Clementine as a protagonist is not a bad idea once-so-ever. It's the delivery via the writing that either makes or breaks the concept.
I dont think she needs to change dramatically every season, just adapt to her circumstances in a normal way.
I posted this in another thread but I think it apples here more:
"Clementine's character arc is finished. It was finished at the end of season one which is why structuring this whole new season around her has caused it to feel so aimless and disjointed. That was the entire crux of season one: Lee atoned for his past through his care and protection of Clementine and in turn she learned how to survive on her own in this new world. Whether she lives or dies does not matter, when she glances up at those figures in the distance at the very end, her arc is fully realized. Her experiences with Lee have changed her into the person she will be in this zombie wasteland.
This is why so little in season two is of any narrative or character value. No matter what situations or characters Clementine encounters, they will never change her."
I said it before but I dont think Clementine is the problem with this season.
I don't think she (completely) is, either. I strongly believe that the people around us change us. The Walking Dead explores the dynamics of groups of people trying to survive. The OP is I think partly right to say that her being the protagonist prevents her from developing in the ways that she did when she was an NPC back in Season One, but that doesn't mean she couldn't have grown in her own right as a protagonist.
The time jump, in the words of another user, seems to have lobotomized her in order to the player to try and insert him/herself into what is being presented as a clean slate. Only... she really is not. I managed to look past this and justify the change in my mind, but I understand why the sudden change is so... frustrating to some people when looking back. Our memory of who Clementine was is still fresh from No Time Left and what I think was a mostly good introductory scene to the season. To be told that 16 months have passed within five seconds of real time and that she changed into what the screen presents you is not nearly as compelling as seeing the character gradually grow. On a graph of growth vs time, I see Clementine slowly, but surely developing as the season goes along. Then, a little more during the introductory scene and then either it stays there, almost flat for the majority of the current season or it plummets down and very slowly starts climbing up. Depends on your perspective.
There is a dilemma here, regarding player agency. How much of an established character do you compromise, sacrifice, even, to let the player feel in control?
Anyway, most of my gripes lie with the supporting cast. I believe that the protagonist's development is tied to a strong set of supporting characters and the conflicts, relationships and other things derived from them. That said, the current cast is, to me, inconsistent at times, basically unlikable not because they are (not most of them, anyway) morally reprehensible people but because there simply isn't much to them.
Lobotomized? That sounds a bit harsh. Please explain.
A hyperbole, really.
i think she will die next episode, jokes on the Clementine Fans, Kenny Fans Unite!
I agree with you. Have a gif