Yes, well, lack of evidence for one argument shouldn't be seen as proof for the opposite argument. I've admitted several times that I don't know much about autism and such, so... yeah.
No one will really know unless Telltale says something definitive. Honestly, I think people are too quick to jump to the conclusion that the… morere is something "wrong" with people if they aren't completely well-adjusted. It's a valid possibility, but I still think it's just a leap without being shown some type of evidence besides her behavior.
Yeah, I don't either, lol. That's why it seemed to come out of nowhere to me when people said that she was. I understand the fallacy that you're bringing up too. I guess what I'm saying is that it sort of feels like this is much ado about nothing until an answer comes, though I do like debate, and I can see where both sides are coming from.
Yes, well, lack of evidence for one argument shouldn't be seen as proof for the opposite argument. I've admitted several times that I don't know much about autism and such, so... yeah.
I've found a good post that summarises the whole issue really:
"Sarah has never been labelled as anything by the developers and writers - unless I’ve missed it somewhere. As someone who has witnessed panic attacks/breakdowns from friends and family without them having an anxiety diagnosis, that’s what Sarah became to me. She is designed to be open ended; for people to connect with her from many walks of life - be it Hispanic, teenage, female, prone to anxiety or something else.
To me, Sarah having any sort of mental disorder didn’t factor into the equation of when she died. She was given as many chances as the game would allow me to give to her. Her death is scripted - it won’t change.
I see Sarah as a young, naïve girl who was never raised for a zombie apocalypse, and cannot cope. Carlos failed at being a parent; protecting over teaching was a noble, yet bad idea. To me, Sarah doesn’t have anxiety, and doesn’t have any form of disorder - she just isn’t prepared for the world outside, regardless of how many guns you teach her to use or not. From a literary perspective, she was designed as a character to be the anti-Clem, the shock factor that made us all glad that we’d taught Clem well.
When she loses Carlos, she has zero independence and that’s something that cannot be changed within the parameters of the game. I would have loved Sarah to snap out of her downward spiral and become a gun-slinging teenager alongside Clem - but sadly, that wasn’t her role or my choice to make.
In fact, Sarah has the longest possible life she can get in my play-through because I got her out of the trailer park - and, sadly, the only way to do is to slap her round her face to get her out of the flight cycle she’s in. Fear can be a weapon just as much as a hindering factor - but for Sarah, Ben, and quite a few others in The Walking Dead, it proved to be a weakness that got them killed.
To those of you that think I’m being heartless about it; I didn’t enjoy any minute of choosing to leave Sarah behind. If you’d watched my play-through before judging me, you’d know that I don’t sound happy in situations where I need try to work out a solution that saves her life without killing others, and without the other characters kicking off about Sarah sitting in the corner or them just leaving her there. It was one person versus a group of people in a survival situation - the needs of the many outweigh the few, especially when the group had two children in it (baby and Clem), versus one (Sarah). I was glad when Sarah died because I didn’t have the pressure of constantly trying to make her work in the group or save her life or make hard choices anymore - the game had done it for me. But you didn’t hear me cackling with glee as Sarah got munched to death under the decking - but you did hear me screaming at Sarah to stand up in the trailer park, and screaming at Clem to make her get up.
Lee left me with a job - to protect Clem above anything else. He refused to die until he’d found her, then he left her in my hands. I’ve smack-talked a pregnant woman. I’ve dropped an AC unit on a man’s head. I’ve killed two murderers, and would have killed more; all in the name of Clem. Hell, I’d stab Kenny in the back if it meant Clem’s survival - because I was given a job to do. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t feel bad about it, but I would still do it if it came down to protecting Clem. I am fierce and I am biased. I am loyal and I am human - and Clem got into my heart first.
To all those people that are offended over my treatment of Sarah: Sarah is constrained to her script, her coding. That is not my fault, that is down to the developers. You will fail her eventually when you play, you cannot get around this.
But you are not her. You are flesh and blood. You have choices, no script, a reality without zombies, a future. If you feel angry about her treatment, then prove yourself better than her ending. Go out there and learn about the world - embrace and overcome your anxiety.
Perhaps that’s what Sarah is for; to make everyone so angry at a needless death that we all go out and better ourselves."
Perhaps that’s what Sarah is for; to make everyone so angry at a needless death that we all go out and better ourselves.
I think this is giving the writers too much credit. They killed Sarah off because they didn't care about her character or development and wanted to get rid of loose ends. I also really dislike that defeatist attitude of "she's scripted to die, there's nothing you can do, get over it". Telltale needs to know that they screwed up with her character. The writers need to be criticised because, if the IGN interview is anything to go by, they don't think that they've made a mistake. This is their job; they need to improve.
And one more thing:
She is designed to be open ended.
This should not be seen as evidence that Sarah is not autistic, just as it should not be seen as evidence that Sarah is autistic. If you really believe that Sarah's mental condition is unconfirmed and has no evidence to back either argument, why are you passionately arguing for one side over the other?
I've found a good post that summarises the whole issue really:
"Sarah has never been labelled as anything by the developers and writers -… more unless I’ve missed it somewhere. As someone who has witnessed panic attacks/breakdowns from friends and family without them having an anxiety diagnosis, that’s what Sarah became to me. She is designed to be open ended; for people to connect with her from many walks of life - be it Hispanic, teenage, female, prone to anxiety or something else.
To me, Sarah having any sort of mental disorder didn’t factor into the equation of when she died. She was given as many chances as the game would allow me to give to her. Her death is scripted - it won’t change.
I see Sarah as a young, naïve girl who was never raised for a zombie apocalypse, and cannot cope. Carlos failed at being a parent; protecting over teaching was a noble, yet bad idea. To me, Sarah doesn’t have anxiety, and doesn’t have any form of disor… [view original content]
Perhaps that’s what Sarah is for; to make everyone so angry at a needless death that we all go out and better ourselves.
I think thi… mores is giving the writers too much credit. They killed Sarah off because they didn't care about her character or development and wanted to get rid of loose ends. I also really dislike that defeatist attitude of "she's scripted to die, there's nothing you can do, get over it". Telltale needs to know that they screwed up with her character. The writers need to be criticised because, if the IGN interview is anything to go by, they don't think that they've made a mistake. This is their job; they need to improve.
And one more thing:
She is designed to be open ended.
This should not be seen as evidence that Sarah is not autistic, just as it should not be seen as evidence that Sarah is autistic. If you really believe that Sarah's mental condition is unconfirmed and has no evidence to back either argument, why are you passionately arguing for one side over the other?
But I'm not arguing for either side??? I've said multiple times that I know next to nothing about autism, which is why I am very confused and curious about the issue of whether or not Sarah truly does have some kind of disorder. This is also the reason I asked you multiple times why you, as a person on the spectrum, considers the arguments of other posters on the spectrum to be invalid. I simply don't understand
I wouldn't comment, but for the upvotes of your post. So let me get this straight...in a fictional apocalypse we should cater to people? Talk about piss poor storytelling. A fictional apocalypse should be just as real as a real apocalypse. If you disagree, you should stick to childrens cartoons and leave post apocalyptic settings to the adults. I can't even fathom why people would upvote you, because it's so far removed from the actual game and the actual source material of the comics.
No. In a fictional apocalypse, and in fiction IN GENERAL, you shouldn't limit yourselves to societies expectations of what is and isn't weak. It's a story, and you have control over what does and does not happen. You can make something gritty and realistic and heartbreaking without sending the message that disabled people aren't worthy of being alive.
People are upvoting me because they agree that "it's the zombie apocalypse" is a bullshit argument.
I wouldn't comment, but for the upvotes of your post. So let me get this straight...in a fictional apocalypse we should cater to people? Tal… morek about piss poor storytelling. A fictional apocalypse should be just as real as a real apocalypse. If you disagree, you should stick to childrens cartoons and leave post apocalyptic settings to the adults. I can't even fathom why people would upvote you, because it's so far removed from the actual game and the actual source material of the comics.
The only problem I have with the whole discussion is the term neuroatypical itself. As someone who has suffered from mental illness and has two very close family members who suffered from severe mental illness (which I don't want to get into), I despise that term. We don't call cancer cells, "atypical cells", we call them cancer. Having ADD, anxiety disorders, etc, aren't just "different". All of those are bad things.
And no, I'm not saying people with mental illness are bad people. That's as stupid as saying people with cancer are bad people. But both are problems that need to be fixed.
The traits other people are identifying with that Sarah has, aren't exclusive to the spectrum. That means everybody and anybody can have panic attacks, wouldn't you under the stress of a ZA? You don't have to have the disabled label to have a nervous breakdown, which Sarah has after Carlos dies. As someone on the spectrum, I've experienced and seen the extent of what panic attacks can do to a person, which Sarah wasn't even close to the extent of someone with Autism EVEN with the ZA going on. She's had two times where she struggles to breathe, once when Carver shows up first thing and again after Carver executes Walter. We see her shut down slightly after Carlos is forced to hit her, but after the Reggie incident she perks up. She freaks and loses her cool when her Dad, the man telling her everything will be okay and the man she relies entirely upon, is munched in front of her. After that, she shuts down entirely, and to cope she thinks her Dad is alive (for me at least, maybe not some others this was the moment I saw her cracking and thinking "Oh shit..") that's quite a few, but very inconsistent throughout the episodes. Whereas someone with a disorder would be affected almost 24/7.
As the person I quoted from said, Sarah is a reminder of what Clem could have been had Chuck not set Lee on the right path. If the writers announce "Yes, she's on the spectrum." then I'll gladly admit defeat. I don't think we should assign mental disorders to characters when there isn't 100% proof. To diagnose someone on the spectrum, they have a series of tests done on them such as myself. You can't just wiki search the symptoms and say "Yup, definitely Autistic." Haha, you'd be surprised how many people on Tumblr have "self-diagnosed PTSD."
Given Carlos is a Doctor, back in episode one he could have said "She has Autism." and I'd accept that, he's her father and a medical professional. But instead he says "She's not like you." which I, and many others took as "She doesn't know what it's like out there." Hell, it would have made sense had Carlos said that and the writers made it clear she had it and it would have been a better storyline. But as I've said before, we have to make do with what we have, because we both know the writing hasn't been stellar this season.
I hope that clears it up a little.... unless we're told by Telltale or by someone in-game that's she has it, all we know is she was just unfit for the apocalypse, in short. I HATED seeing her die, but that's why the game is so great, getting me attached to someone fictional.
But I'm not arguing for either side??? I've said multiple times that I know next to nothing about autism, which is why I am very confused an… mored curious about the issue of whether or not Sarah truly does have some kind of disorder. This is also the reason I asked you multiple times why you, as a person on the spectrum, considers the arguments of other posters on the spectrum to be invalid. I simply don't understand
Wait, so are you saying you have a problem with referring to anxiety and such as "neuroatypical" because it incorrectly implies those disorders are simply "different" rather than outright negative things? Just for clarification.
The only problem I have with the whole discussion is the term neuroatypical itself. As someone who has suffered from mental illness and has … moretwo very close family members who suffered from severe mental illness (which I don't want to get into), I despise that term. We don't call cancer cells, "atypical cells", we call them cancer. Having ADD, anxiety disorders, etc, aren't just "different". All of those are bad things.
And no, I'm not saying people with mental illness are bad people. That's as stupid as saying people with cancer are bad people. But both are problems that need to be fixed.
Fair enough. I can understand why that would make you uncomfortable.
But... you can't "fix" mental illness. That's a dangerous mindset to have--it's the kind of mindset that created lobotomies and sanitariums. You treat mental illness. You cope with it and you accept it as a part of your life.
The only problem I have with the whole discussion is the term neuroatypical itself. As someone who has suffered from mental illness and has … moretwo very close family members who suffered from severe mental illness (which I don't want to get into), I despise that term. We don't call cancer cells, "atypical cells", we call them cancer. Having ADD, anxiety disorders, etc, aren't just "different". All of those are bad things.
And no, I'm not saying people with mental illness are bad people. That's as stupid as saying people with cancer are bad people. But both are problems that need to be fixed.
Fair enough. I can understand why that would make you uncomfortable.
But... you can't "fix" mental illness. That's a dangerous mindset to… more have--it's the kind of mindset that created lobotomies and sanitariums. You treat mental illness. You cope with it and you accept it as a part of your life.
But then it would be unrealistic if EVERYONE lived. I've said before, the elderly, disabled and young kids are always the first to go and that's with all sicknesses in history, let alone the ZA. Telltale try to make as dark and gritty as possible, yet they connect you to the characters through positive and negative relationships (well, in season 1 anyway). No one deserves to die, but as TheHumanDove says, it's bad storytelling if everyone lives happy ever after. It would be even more unrealistic if the disabled were safe from harm. Then the whole game falls apart.
No. In a fictional apocalypse, and in fiction IN GENERAL, you shouldn't limit yourselves to societies expectations of what is and isn't weak… more. It's a story, and you have control over what does and does not happen. You can make something gritty and realistic and heartbreaking without sending the message that disabled people aren't worthy of being alive.
People are upvoting me because they agree that "it's the zombie apocalypse" is a bullshit argument.
I don't think we should assign mental disorders to characters when there isn't 100% proof.
I don't agree with this though. Again, there are people who have made a case that there a hints that she does have disorders. You say that from your experience it seems like Sarah isn't on the spectrum, but there are other posters who claim she is implied to be so, and I can see where they're coming from. You don't need an outright confirmation to believe something, just as there was initially no outright confirmation that Walter was homosexual. I mean, Carlos saying "she will cease to function" is a pretty extreme statement.
...that's quite a few, but very inconsistent throughout the episodes. Whereas someone with a disorder would be affected almost 24/7.
I really wonder about this. It's still entirely plausible that Telltale intended Sarah to come off as having some kind of disorder, but inconsistent writing got in the way of that. But who knows.
The traits other people are identifying with that Sarah has, aren't exclusive to the spectrum. That means everybody and anybody can have pan… moreic attacks, wouldn't you under the stress of a ZA? You don't have to have the disabled label to have a nervous breakdown, which Sarah has after Carlos dies. As someone on the spectrum, I've experienced and seen the extent of what panic attacks can do to a person, which Sarah wasn't even close to the extent of someone with Autism EVEN with the ZA going on. She's had two times where she struggles to breathe, once when Carver shows up first thing and again after Carver executes Walter. We see her shut down slightly after Carlos is forced to hit her, but after the Reggie incident she perks up. She freaks and loses her cool when her Dad, the man telling her everything will be okay and the man she relies entirely upon, is munched in front of her. After that, she shuts down entirely, and to cope she thinks her D… [view original content]
Who knows, indeed. Doesn't help that they change writers every few episodes.
Telltale can make whatever they want canon, so I'd prefer to wait for their confirmation until I jump to conclusions. Remember how the forums were obsessed with Luke and Nick being gay and a couple in secret? That fell flat on it's face. Hell, if Telltale wanted to, they could decide Kenny is a direct descendant of William the Conqueror. It's their playground at the end of the day.
Well thanks for clearing that up.
I don't think we should assign mental disorders to characters when there isn't 100% proof.
I… more don't agree with this though. Again, there are people who have made a case that there a hints that she does have disorders. You say that from your experience it seems like Sarah isn't on the spectrum, but there are other posters who claim she is implied to be so, and I can see where they're coming from. You don't need an outright confirmation to believe something, just as there was initially no outright confirmation that Walter was homosexual. I mean, Carlos saying "she will cease to function" is a pretty extreme statement.
...that's quite a few, but very inconsistent throughout the episodes. Whereas someone with a disorder would be affected almost 24/7.
I really wonder about this. It's still entirely plausible that Telltale intended Sarah to come off as having some kind of disorder, but inconsistent writing got in the way of that. But who knows.
I meant treat. I'm not advocating for lobotomies or anything like that. I know that mental illness can't really be fixed, not in the same way that other diseases can be.
Fair enough. I can understand why that would make you uncomfortable.
But... you can't "fix" mental illness. That's a dangerous mindset to… more have--it's the kind of mindset that created lobotomies and sanitariums. You treat mental illness. You cope with it and you accept it as a part of your life.
Wait, so are you saying you have a problem with referring to anxiety and such as "neuroatypical" because it incorrectly implies those disorders are simply "different" rather than outright negative things? Just for clarification.
Well...yet. The brain may be an unfathomably complex organ, but neuroscience and psychiatry are still kind of in their infancy and getting better every day. So who's to say there won't be a curative innovation for at least some mental illnesses in the future?
I meant treat. I'm not advocating for lobotomies or anything like that. I know that mental illness can't really be fixed, not in the same way that other diseases can be.
Sarah wasn't mentally ill , she just was not cut out for the apocalypse , some people are cut out for it and some are not .... even the people cut out for it wind up getting killed ...... how come nobody called Ben mentally ill ? How come nobody called duck mentally ill ....
But then it would be unrealistic if EVERYONE lived. I've said before, the elderly, disabled and young kids are always the first to go and th… moreat's with all sicknesses in history, let alone the ZA. Telltale try to make as dark and gritty as possible, yet they connect you to the characters through positive and negative relationships (well, in season 1 anyway). No one deserves to die, but as TheHumanDove says, it's bad storytelling if everyone lives happy ever after. It would be even more unrealistic if the disabled were safe from harm. Then the whole game falls apart.
I meant treat. I'm not advocating for lobotomies or anything like that. I know that mental illness can't really be fixed, not in the same way that other diseases can be.
Whether telltale intended her to have a mental illness or not her problems do have an obvious effect on her quality of life which should point that she has problems deep enough that does qualify as mental illness or a group of mental illness. As I said before I heavily identify with Sarah in the fact that I have shut down like Sarah has before and have reacted in a similar way as she has something of which I posted about here on the forums before. Even if you don't see the connections I do. I know what its like to have those problems and I know how debilitating it is and I can see exactly how debilitated she was in her most major shut downs because I've been there before and that is how they found out what my mental illnesses are. I have Aspergers, Anxiety, and Codependency. Just because you haven't see these problems displayed before or never experienced by yourself before does not mean its not what it is. So please stop denying others experiences.
Sarah wasn't mentally ill , she just was not cut out for the apocalypse , some people are cut out for it and some are not .... even the peop… morele cut out for it wind up getting killed ...... how come nobody called Ben mentally ill ? How come nobody called duck mentally ill ....
She is just sheltered and hasn't had much practice interacting with anyone outside her group. I don't think she is autistic in any way. An anxiety disorder, sure, autism, no.
Calm your tits. Who said I've never experienced them? Who said I've never seen them? You identify with her. Congratulations. Wait, have the writers said she was on the spectrum? No? Problem solved, not much of an argument to be had. Even if you think she was on the spectrum, which unless the writers say so, (she doesn't choose her damn personality, the writers do!) then I'm sorry to say, but we don't know. You understand other people who aren't on the spectrum can shut down as well?
At the end of the day, what does it matter? She's dead. Can't change that I'm afraid.
Whether telltale intended her to have a mental illness or not her problems do have an obvious effect on her quality of life which should poi… morent that she has problems deep enough that does qualify as mental illness or a group of mental illness. As I said before I heavily identify with Sarah in the fact that I have shut down like Sarah has before and have reacted in a similar way as she has something of which I posted about here on the forums before. Even if you don't see the connections I do. I know what its like to have those problems and I know how debilitating it is and I can see exactly how debilitated she was in her most major shut downs because I've been there before and that is how they found out what my mental illnesses are. I have Aspergers, Anxiety, and Codependency. Just because you haven't see these problems displayed before or never experienced by yourself before does not mean its not what it is. So please stop denying others experiences.
Yes I know people under stress can shut down but its not just that. Even if the writers say so or not her personality traits shows obvious signs of mental illnesses which are severe enough to effect quality of life.(That is important) Telltale will automatically deny it being mental illness no matter what and mainly because how the ign interview went. (Unless this type of thing is acceptable now then I do not want to live on this planet anymore and mainly because persons like me would be considered unacceptable.) It is those particular traits she shows, not just during shut down, was how I was diagnosed. It is just shown best during her shut down. I really feel you're just denying my experiences for the love of telltale. I mean I can't say Sarah is a carbon copy of me but she is definitely the only character I have ever related to in any works of fiction. Its just hurts so much when everyone goes "LOL I'm glad shes dead." when under my own experiences having others tell me they wanted me to kill myself because of these problems traits.
Calm your tits. Who said I've never experienced them? Who said I've never seen them? You identify with her. Congratulations. Wait, have the … morewriters said she was on the spectrum? No? Problem solved, not much of an argument to be had. Even if you think she was on the spectrum, which unless the writers say so, (she doesn't choose her damn personality, the writers do!) then I'm sorry to say, but we don't know. You understand other people who aren't on the spectrum can shut down as well?
At the end of the day, what does it matter? She's dead. Can't change that I'm afraid.
It is believable though. In the trailer, she died because she gave up and people thought the had no choice, but Sarah wasn't in the state of… more mind to comprehend what was going on until it was to late. On the balcony, it collapsed from underneath her and possibly broke her legs. Neither of those are fair in the slightest and were out of her control entirely. Poor writing I agree, but that's the death she was given. If Kenny died from say, a splinter, there would be outrage of how stupid it would be. Nothing we can do though, as the writers would have already made it so.
This is what we're talking about right here. The fact that society views autism as a terrible and shameful thing is why the portrayal of people like Sarah in the media is a big deal.
Sure, panic attacks are a disability. When someone has a panic attack they're a liability. Liabilities in a fictional game can be annoying. Removal of the liability can be good. Also I don't want to execute disabled people, so consider that before you downvote me. You'll do it anyways though, because 'my internet sense of justice' rage. KONY 2012
Calm your tits. Who said I've never experienced them? Who said I've never seen them? You identify with her. Congratulations. Wait, have the … morewriters said she was on the spectrum? No? Problem solved, not much of an argument to be had. Even if you think she was on the spectrum, which unless the writers say so, (she doesn't choose her damn personality, the writers do!) then I'm sorry to say, but we don't know. You understand other people who aren't on the spectrum can shut down as well?
At the end of the day, what does it matter? She's dead. Can't change that I'm afraid.
Sure, panic attacks are a disability. When someone has a panic attack they're a liability. Liabilities in a fictional game can be annoying. … moreRemoval of the liability can be good. Also I don't want to execute disabled people, so consider that before you downvote me. You'll do it anyways though, because 'my internet sense of justice' rage. KONY 2012
They are not 'normal', and thus don't deserve to live. Autism makes people dangerous, which is why we should lock them up and let them die to protect ourselves.
Again, 'normal' people in America can still have some really twisted beliefs.
This is what we're talking about right here. The fact that society views autism as a terrible and shameful thing is why the portrayal of people like Sarah in the media is a big deal.
Comments
Yes, well, lack of evidence for one argument shouldn't be seen as proof for the opposite argument. I've admitted several times that I don't know much about autism and such, so... yeah.
Yeah, I don't either, lol. That's why it seemed to come out of nowhere to me when people said that she was. I understand the fallacy that you're bringing up too. I guess what I'm saying is that it sort of feels like this is much ado about nothing until an answer comes, though I do like debate, and I can see where both sides are coming from.
I've found a good post that summarises the whole issue really:
"Sarah has never been labelled as anything by the developers and writers - unless I’ve missed it somewhere. As someone who has witnessed panic attacks/breakdowns from friends and family without them having an anxiety diagnosis, that’s what Sarah became to me. She is designed to be open ended; for people to connect with her from many walks of life - be it Hispanic, teenage, female, prone to anxiety or something else.
To me, Sarah having any sort of mental disorder didn’t factor into the equation of when she died. She was given as many chances as the game would allow me to give to her. Her death is scripted - it won’t change.
I see Sarah as a young, naïve girl who was never raised for a zombie apocalypse, and cannot cope. Carlos failed at being a parent; protecting over teaching was a noble, yet bad idea. To me, Sarah doesn’t have anxiety, and doesn’t have any form of disorder - she just isn’t prepared for the world outside, regardless of how many guns you teach her to use or not. From a literary perspective, she was designed as a character to be the anti-Clem, the shock factor that made us all glad that we’d taught Clem well.
When she loses Carlos, she has zero independence and that’s something that cannot be changed within the parameters of the game. I would have loved Sarah to snap out of her downward spiral and become a gun-slinging teenager alongside Clem - but sadly, that wasn’t her role or my choice to make.
In fact, Sarah has the longest possible life she can get in my play-through because I got her out of the trailer park - and, sadly, the only way to do is to slap her round her face to get her out of the flight cycle she’s in. Fear can be a weapon just as much as a hindering factor - but for Sarah, Ben, and quite a few others in The Walking Dead, it proved to be a weakness that got them killed.
To those of you that think I’m being heartless about it; I didn’t enjoy any minute of choosing to leave Sarah behind. If you’d watched my play-through before judging me, you’d know that I don’t sound happy in situations where I need try to work out a solution that saves her life without killing others, and without the other characters kicking off about Sarah sitting in the corner or them just leaving her there. It was one person versus a group of people in a survival situation - the needs of the many outweigh the few, especially when the group had two children in it (baby and Clem), versus one (Sarah). I was glad when Sarah died because I didn’t have the pressure of constantly trying to make her work in the group or save her life or make hard choices anymore - the game had done it for me. But you didn’t hear me cackling with glee as Sarah got munched to death under the decking - but you did hear me screaming at Sarah to stand up in the trailer park, and screaming at Clem to make her get up.
Lee left me with a job - to protect Clem above anything else. He refused to die until he’d found her, then he left her in my hands. I’ve smack-talked a pregnant woman. I’ve dropped an AC unit on a man’s head. I’ve killed two murderers, and would have killed more; all in the name of Clem. Hell, I’d stab Kenny in the back if it meant Clem’s survival - because I was given a job to do. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t feel bad about it, but I would still do it if it came down to protecting Clem. I am fierce and I am biased. I am loyal and I am human - and Clem got into my heart first.
To all those people that are offended over my treatment of Sarah: Sarah is constrained to her script, her coding. That is not my fault, that is down to the developers. You will fail her eventually when you play, you cannot get around this.
But you are not her. You are flesh and blood. You have choices, no script, a reality without zombies, a future. If you feel angry about her treatment, then prove yourself better than her ending. Go out there and learn about the world - embrace and overcome your anxiety.
Perhaps that’s what Sarah is for; to make everyone so angry at a needless death that we all go out and better ourselves."
I think this is giving the writers too much credit. They killed Sarah off because they didn't care about her character or development and wanted to get rid of loose ends. I also really dislike that defeatist attitude of "she's scripted to die, there's nothing you can do, get over it". Telltale needs to know that they screwed up with her character. The writers need to be criticised because, if the IGN interview is anything to go by, they don't think that they've made a mistake. This is their job; they need to improve.
And one more thing:
This should not be seen as evidence that Sarah is not autistic, just as it should not be seen as evidence that Sarah is autistic. If you really believe that Sarah's mental condition is unconfirmed and has no evidence to back either argument, why are you passionately arguing for one side over the other?
The same reason you're arguing for your side.
But I'm not arguing for either side??? I've said multiple times that I know next to nothing about autism, which is why I am very confused and curious about the issue of whether or not Sarah truly does have some kind of disorder. This is also the reason I asked you multiple times why you, as a person on the spectrum, considers the arguments of other posters on the spectrum to be invalid. I simply don't understand
I wouldn't comment, but for the upvotes of your post. So let me get this straight...in a fictional apocalypse we should cater to people? Talk about piss poor storytelling. A fictional apocalypse should be just as real as a real apocalypse. If you disagree, you should stick to childrens cartoons and leave post apocalyptic settings to the adults. I can't even fathom why people would upvote you, because it's so far removed from the actual game and the actual source material of the comics.
No. In a fictional apocalypse, and in fiction IN GENERAL, you shouldn't limit yourselves to societies expectations of what is and isn't weak. It's a story, and you have control over what does and does not happen. You can make something gritty and realistic and heartbreaking without sending the message that disabled people aren't worthy of being alive.
People are upvoting me because they agree that "it's the zombie apocalypse" is a bullshit argument.
The only problem I have with the whole discussion is the term neuroatypical itself. As someone who has suffered from mental illness and has two very close family members who suffered from severe mental illness (which I don't want to get into), I despise that term. We don't call cancer cells, "atypical cells", we call them cancer. Having ADD, anxiety disorders, etc, aren't just "different". All of those are bad things.
And no, I'm not saying people with mental illness are bad people. That's as stupid as saying people with cancer are bad people. But both are problems that need to be fixed.
The traits other people are identifying with that Sarah has, aren't exclusive to the spectrum. That means everybody and anybody can have panic attacks, wouldn't you under the stress of a ZA? You don't have to have the disabled label to have a nervous breakdown, which Sarah has after Carlos dies. As someone on the spectrum, I've experienced and seen the extent of what panic attacks can do to a person, which Sarah wasn't even close to the extent of someone with Autism EVEN with the ZA going on. She's had two times where she struggles to breathe, once when Carver shows up first thing and again after Carver executes Walter. We see her shut down slightly after Carlos is forced to hit her, but after the Reggie incident she perks up. She freaks and loses her cool when her Dad, the man telling her everything will be okay and the man she relies entirely upon, is munched in front of her. After that, she shuts down entirely, and to cope she thinks her Dad is alive (for me at least, maybe not some others this was the moment I saw her cracking and thinking "Oh shit..") that's quite a few, but very inconsistent throughout the episodes. Whereas someone with a disorder would be affected almost 24/7.
As the person I quoted from said, Sarah is a reminder of what Clem could have been had Chuck not set Lee on the right path. If the writers announce "Yes, she's on the spectrum." then I'll gladly admit defeat. I don't think we should assign mental disorders to characters when there isn't 100% proof. To diagnose someone on the spectrum, they have a series of tests done on them such as myself. You can't just wiki search the symptoms and say "Yup, definitely Autistic." Haha, you'd be surprised how many people on Tumblr have "self-diagnosed PTSD."
Given Carlos is a Doctor, back in episode one he could have said "She has Autism." and I'd accept that, he's her father and a medical professional. But instead he says "She's not like you." which I, and many others took as "She doesn't know what it's like out there." Hell, it would have made sense had Carlos said that and the writers made it clear she had it and it would have been a better storyline. But as I've said before, we have to make do with what we have, because we both know the writing hasn't been stellar this season.
I hope that clears it up a little.... unless we're told by Telltale or by someone in-game that's she has it, all we know is she was just unfit for the apocalypse, in short. I HATED seeing her die, but that's why the game is so great, getting me attached to someone fictional.
Wait, so are you saying you have a problem with referring to anxiety and such as "neuroatypical" because it incorrectly implies those disorders are simply "different" rather than outright negative things? Just for clarification.
Fair enough. I can understand why that would make you uncomfortable.
But... you can't "fix" mental illness. That's a dangerous mindset to have--it's the kind of mindset that created lobotomies and sanitariums. You treat mental illness. You cope with it and you accept it as a part of your life.
I'm sure he just used the wrong wording bud, at least I'd hope so.
But then it would be unrealistic if EVERYONE lived. I've said before, the elderly, disabled and young kids are always the first to go and that's with all sicknesses in history, let alone the ZA. Telltale try to make as dark and gritty as possible, yet they connect you to the characters through positive and negative relationships (well, in season 1 anyway). No one deserves to die, but as TheHumanDove says, it's bad storytelling if everyone lives happy ever after. It would be even more unrealistic if the disabled were safe from harm. Then the whole game falls apart.
Well thanks for clearing that up.
I don't agree with this though. Again, there are people who have made a case that there a hints that she does have disorders. You say that from your experience it seems like Sarah isn't on the spectrum, but there are other posters who claim she is implied to be so, and I can see where they're coming from. You don't need an outright confirmation to believe something, just as there was initially no outright confirmation that Walter was homosexual. I mean, Carlos saying "she will cease to function" is a pretty extreme statement.
I really wonder about this. It's still entirely plausible that Telltale intended Sarah to come off as having some kind of disorder, but inconsistent writing got in the way of that. But who knows.
Who knows, indeed. Doesn't help that they change writers every few episodes.
Telltale can make whatever they want canon, so I'd prefer to wait for their confirmation until I jump to conclusions. Remember how the forums were obsessed with Luke and Nick being gay and a couple in secret? That fell flat on it's face. Hell, if Telltale wanted to, they could decide Kenny is a direct descendant of William the Conqueror. It's their playground at the end of the day.
I meant treat. I'm not advocating for lobotomies or anything like that. I know that mental illness can't really be fixed, not in the same way that other diseases can be.
Yep. That's exactly it.
Well...yet. The brain may be an unfathomably complex organ, but neuroscience and psychiatry are still kind of in their infancy and getting better every day. So who's to say there won't be a curative innovation for at least some mental illnesses in the future?
im not gonna give my opinion about sarah so im gonna just nod my head
wiki is the worst place for "reliable" intel
Okay, thanks for the clarification.
Yup, hence why I'm going to wait for Telltale's verdict. If they don't give one, then the forum will probably fall apart.
Sarah wasn't mentally ill , she just was not cut out for the apocalypse , some people are cut out for it and some are not .... even the people cut out for it wind up getting killed ...... how come nobody called Ben mentally ill ? How come nobody called duck mentally ill ....
Predictable. It would be predictable. But honestly, the big issue isn't that they died, it's HOW they died.
i know you're not, that was sort of an unnecessary exaggeration on my part. Just trying to point out that it's not a good term to use.
Whether telltale intended her to have a mental illness or not her problems do have an obvious effect on her quality of life which should point that she has problems deep enough that does qualify as mental illness or a group of mental illness. As I said before I heavily identify with Sarah in the fact that I have shut down like Sarah has before and have reacted in a similar way as she has something of which I posted about here on the forums before. Even if you don't see the connections I do. I know what its like to have those problems and I know how debilitating it is and I can see exactly how debilitated she was in her most major shut downs because I've been there before and that is how they found out what my mental illnesses are. I have Aspergers, Anxiety, and Codependency. Just because you haven't see these problems displayed before or never experienced by yourself before does not mean its not what it is. So please stop denying others experiences.
THANK YOU
She is just sheltered and hasn't had much practice interacting with anyone outside her group. I don't think she is autistic in any way. An anxiety disorder, sure, autism, no.
Calm your tits. Who said I've never experienced them? Who said I've never seen them? You identify with her. Congratulations. Wait, have the writers said she was on the spectrum? No? Problem solved, not much of an argument to be had. Even if you think she was on the spectrum, which unless the writers say so, (she doesn't choose her damn personality, the writers do!) then I'm sorry to say, but we don't know. You understand other people who aren't on the spectrum can shut down as well?
At the end of the day, what does it matter? She's dead. Can't change that I'm afraid.
Daily reminder that autism is continually misdiagnosed due to bad parenting
Really? Damn, I feel sorry for the kid. Living with the label of "Autistic" is bad enough, but it's got to be worse if you don't even have it
Yes I know people under stress can shut down but its not just that. Even if the writers say so or not her personality traits shows obvious signs of mental illnesses which are severe enough to effect quality of life.(That is important) Telltale will automatically deny it being mental illness no matter what and mainly because how the ign interview went. (Unless this type of thing is acceptable now then I do not want to live on this planet anymore and mainly because persons like me would be considered unacceptable.) It is those particular traits she shows, not just during shut down, was how I was diagnosed. It is just shown best during her shut down. I really feel you're just denying my experiences for the love of telltale. I mean I can't say Sarah is a carbon copy of me but she is definitely the only character I have ever related to in any works of fiction. Its just hurts so much when everyone goes "LOL I'm glad shes dead." when under my own experiences having others tell me they wanted me to kill myself because of these problems traits.
You can use your own intuition and knowledge to make judgments about characters.
Sarah wasn't giving up on her life in the trailer. "I can't" =/= "I will not"
So correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anyone disputes that Sarah has panic attacks... don't panic attacks count as a disability?
This is what we're talking about right here. The fact that society views autism as a terrible and shameful thing is why the portrayal of people like Sarah in the media is a big deal.
Sure, panic attacks are a disability. When someone has a panic attack they're a liability. Liabilities in a fictional game can be annoying. Removal of the liability can be good. Also I don't want to execute disabled people, so consider that before you downvote me. You'll do it anyways though, because 'my internet sense of justice' rage. KONY 2012
The writers don't have to say "THIS CHARACTER IS CANON DISABLED" in order for people with similar conditions to recognize the signs of a disability.
please tell me you're trolling.
They are not 'normal', and thus don't deserve to live. Autism makes people dangerous, which is why we should lock them up and let them die to protect ourselves.
Again, 'normal' people in America can still have some really twisted beliefs.