If we remove female tropes then we have to remove male tropes...No...
There are millions of female gamers, these "tropes" don't discourage women from playing, its just another thing for the America "Femnazi" to complain about.
It's...pretty widespread, actually and if people think that addressing it would help to improve video games and make them more appealing to … morehalf of the population of people in the world, why shouldn't it be addressed? I've seen Anita's video series as well and while I disagree with a fair number of the points she brings up, there wasn't anything in there that constituted an attack on men. Stuff is said in there that could be used as a point with which to attack men, but that's a different claim entirely.
I don't know what an SJW is though. I don't relegate myself to one form of thinking either, I am who I choose to be. Nothing more, if I thin… morek something is bad, I don't like it.
You started by telling me to "fuck off." Don't do that, it REALLY pisses me off. And then calling me a "tool?" That's the talk of a thirteen year old. If you can't voice your opinion without slinging your verbal insults at me, then we have a problem.
Plus, I really don't care what your opinion is anyway after you opened up with "Fuck off."
holy shit, top notch kek that is. I mean woo. Call in the internet police, someone told someone to 'fuck off'. Jesus Mary and Joseph. Bring in the banter squad.
holy shit, top notch kek that is. I mean woo. Call in the internet police, someone told someone to 'fuck off'. Jesus Mary and Joseph. Bring in the banter squad.
If we remove female tropes then we have to remove male tropes...No...
Uh...what? If by "remove female tropes," you mean that we should move away from tired cliches involving female characters, then yes we should do that. And similarly, yes, we should move away from tired cliches involving male characters as well. Wasn't one of the positive points with having someone like Clem be a protagonist that it supposedly averts the "buff, badass he-man mowing down zombies with a machine gun" trope? This is a good thing, no?
There are a lot of women gamers, yes, but a lot of them are turned off from certain genres by seeing oversexualized female characters as part of game advertising and the lack of many strong female protagonists. There's a reason why women have a tendency to flock more to RPGs that take the time to include female protagonist options than FPSs which usually just have a generic dude with a gun.
If we remove female tropes then we have to remove male tropes...No...
There are millions of female gamers, these "tropes" don't discourage women from playing, its just another thing for the America "Femnazi" to complain about.
No, removing these is a horrible idea...It will turn off both genders. If women are so stubborn that they NEED a female protagonist, well we shouldn't care. When I play games I sometimes play as male and sometimes as female. We shouldn't have to conform to a certain side because no matter fucking what, one side will always be upset! Do you think I want to see shirtless men in every advertisement campaign with a 16 pack and rock hard abs? No I don't, so these women should suck it the fuck up, its a GAME, its not oppressing you!
If we remove female tropes then we have to remove male tropes...No...
Uh...what? If by "remove female tropes," you mean that we shou… moreld move away from tired cliches involving female characters, then yes we should do that. And similarly, yes, we should move away from tired cliches involving male characters as well. Wasn't one of the positive points with having someone like Clem be a protagonist that it supposedly averts the "buff, badass he-man mowing down zombies with a machine gun" trope? This is a good thing, no?
There are a lot of women gamers, yes, but a lot of them are turned off from certain genres by seeing oversexualized female characters as part of game advertising and the lack of many strong female protagonists. There's a reason why women have a tendency to flock more to RPGs that take the time to include female protagonist options than FPSs which usually just have a generic dude with a gun.
Really? You're telling me that having more female protagonists and not hypersexualizing female characters would turn men off of games? I'm a male gamer and I for one welcome more female protagonists and characters who understand that a metal thong and bikini aren't appropriate battle attire.
People aren't asking for total girl power games here. They're just saying that, hey, maybe have female characters do things and have personalities rather than just sitting helplessly in a dungeon waiting to be saved. That wouldn't just make for more female-friendly games, it would make for better games, period.
No, removing these is a horrible idea...It will turn off both genders. If women are so stubborn that they NEED a female protagonist, well we… more shouldn't care. When I play games I sometimes play as male and sometimes as female. We shouldn't have to conform to a certain side because no matter fucking what, one side will always be upset! Do you think I want to see shirtless men in every advertisement campaign with a 16 pack and rock hard abs? No I don't, so these women should suck it the fuck up, its a GAME, its not oppressing you!
Female characters DO have big roles in games, it depends of the game.
I'm getting tired of arguing with you all, you think having femnazi games will be better. The games we have now are good, I wanted to say that guys have to deal with tropes too. Women and everyone period should just shut the fuck up and enjoy a good game. I'm out, have fun with your Sarkeesian complex.
(I hope you don't take this offensively, i'm pretty pissed at the moment and not just at your females are victim arguments because THEY AREN'T in America these days and sure as hell aren't in Games. I'm venting... )
Really? You're telling me that having more female protagonists and not hypersexualizing female characters would turn men off of games? I'm a… more male gamer and I for one welcome more female protagonists and characters who understand that a metal thong and bikini aren't appropriate battle attire.
People aren't asking for total girl power games here. They're just saying that, hey, maybe have female characters do things and have personalities rather than just sitting helplessly in a dungeon waiting to be saved. That wouldn't just make for more female-friendly games, it would make for better games, period.
Well, Anita has this issue of deleting and silencing comments, her excuse it's because of trolls, when it's not really that simple, plenty of people have given a civil argument to her claims, but they're just saying she doesn't really have all her facts together and is coming off more as a feminist that's trying to push an aggressive agenda that's all about girl power and that men are stupid and evil, Anita seems like she's doing this just for the money and fame and making the famnazi's happy, of course maybe it's more complicated than that. I don't hate Anita, I just don't think she's that reliable or trusting.
I wholeheartedly agree with her - hell, I think she's way too lenient on games. She's doing it out of true love for games. Just like me. … moreIf you love games so much that you're willing to have years of insecure babies screeching death threats at you for suggesting that things be done differently - then you must be doing something right.
And sending a death threat to silence her is terrorism and that man should be treated as such. It's too bad that not many boys seem to really understand the gravity of this problem.
I respect Anita's opinion and her right to freedom of speech. That being said I think she's a complete idiot too lazy and greedy to do five seconds of research for the videos she makes. She doesn't deserve rape/harassment threats obviously, but that doesn't change the fact that her fragile little ego can't even stand a differing opinion. If feminists have something to say, fine, but if they're going antagonize an entire demographic and then lie right to their faces they can't act surprised when people don't respect them.
I respect Anita's opinion and her right to freedom of speech. That being said I think she's a complete idiot too lazy and greedy to do five … moreseconds of research for the videos she makes. She doesn't deserve rape/harassment threats obviously, but that doesn't change the fact that her fragile little ego can't even stand a differing opinion. If feminists have something to say, fine, but if they're going antagonize an entire demographic and then lie right to their faces they can't act surprised when people don't respect them.
Well maybe you can revisit this when you've sorted out whatever it is you have going on then, because your anger seems to be clouding your perception and understanding of what I'm trying to get across.
Female characters DO have big roles in games, it depends of the game.
I'm getting tired of arguing with you all, you think having femnazi… more games will be better. The games we have now are good, I wanted to say that guys have to deal with tropes too. Women and everyone period should just shut the fuck up and enjoy a good game. I'm out, have fun with your Sarkeesian complex.
(I hope you don't take this offensively, i'm pretty pissed at the moment and not just at your females are victim arguments because THEY AREN'T in America these days and sure as hell aren't in Games. I'm venting... )
Well maybe you can revisit this when you've sorted out whatever it is you have going on then, because your anger seems to be clouding your perception and understanding of what I'm trying to get across.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. It's sad how many people will defend someone so unprofessional just because she wears the banner of feminism. Really you can get away with just about anything these days so long as you support/target the right groups.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. It's sad how many people will defend someone so unprofessional just because she wears the banner of feminism. Really you can get away with just about anything these days so long as you support/target the right groups.
I think the process goes something like this:
* Dev: "Let's add more female characters!" Feminists: This game is sexist! All of the wom… moreen are in minor support roles!"
* Dev: "Let's give the female characters combat abilities!" Feminists: "This game is sexist! It promotes violence against women!"
* Dev: "Screw it, let's just remove females from the game." Feminists: "This game is sexist! it doesn't have enough female characters!"
And repeat. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
If you did do research actual research on both sides not just woo is me Antia. You'd find out she faked some of the more 'aggressive' threats on her. That her extensive research is mostly stuff (like in her Hitman video) that she does out of her own free will.
That's cool if you're cool with it. I'm not cool with people telling me to "fuck off" though and calling me a "tool" because of something I … moresupport.
Then saying I'M wrong? I do research into things and try seeing the points of both sides. I don't follow blindly.
For me, this problem is illustrated very clearly - some people have suggested there may be misogyny in gaming. The reaction to that was a level of dangerous misogyny and enabling of that misogyny the likes of which I have never seen, including death threats and rape threats. A serious problem has become apparent. But what usually gets discussed on a board like this? What Anita Sarkeesian did wrong in her videos or how she funded them. Not the misogyny, not the threats, not the problem.
Thus proving the problem.
But the thing is, discussing it with the problem is like Lee and Kenny gathering a bunch of zombies together to discuss the difficulties of living with walkers. "Me problem?! No, you problem." (They speak like Cookie Monster). There is rarely rational discussion.
The unfortunate part of all this in my personal opinion is that this will do damage to gaming for years to come. All those Daily Mail articles now have no end of fuel for the evils of gaming. It's not good for any of us who enjoy gaming.
Doesn't surprise me. Most men are scared around women that use their voice as a platform to insight discussion.
When I heard about the "S… morearkeesian incident" I looked up her series of videos and immediately thought "this is controversial now?" A women speaking her thoughts about an industry she loves gets her death and rape threats. How sick is that?
I've heard about the Utah conference and, again, wasn't surprised. I think it's sad that women are being more and more repressed by an ever misogynistic industry.
And people still use the term "Feminazi" as a disgusting term to repress the goals of feminism. A term which, by the way, was started by Rush Limbaugh to dilute the movement.
Anita can have whatever opinion she chooses, but I quite frankly don't like her. Apparently she used footage from videos without permission. Plus, games are not meant to guide people on how to see issues, so it shouldn't matter if a certain gender is represented or not. Plus, there are plenty of strong female characters in games, Clementine, Lara Croft and others. Games are entertainment, and they're not usually meant to be used as social commentary, so whatever's entertaining is what the game should be.
As for gun laws, you shouldn't need assault weapons unless ISIS is on you're doorstep. You can defend yourself just fine with a handgun or bolt-action rifle. Australia had automatic guns, but they were banned after the Port Arthur massacre in 1996. Since then, there have been NO gun massacres over here. America's constitution was written during a time when you were expected to carry a gun, and it's now outdated. I'm not saying ban guns, but make sure you're not giving one to the next Adam Lanza.
I get that you were insulted but that's no reason to insult others in turn. Let's everybody just calm down and try to talk to each other like adults here.
Guys, please try to behave and keep discussion civil. Please don't go around and passive aggressively instigate arguments. You know if this warning applies to you or not.
Consider this a warning to stay on topic and constructively discuss the topic without insults towards users. Thanks.
I think, totally opinion based on pretty good knowledge on how the FBI assesses threats, the statement the FBI deemed this not credible 'based on previous threats' that this was a stunt to bring attention to another agenda of Anita's. It is also implied by the 'previous threats' statement the FBI considers Anita herself to be responsible somehow for those threats.
I think, totally opinion based on pretty good knowledge on how the FBI assesses threats, the statement the FBI deemed this not credible 'bas… moreed on previous threats' that this was a stunt to bring attention to another agenda of Anita's. It is also implied by the 'previous threats' statement the FBI considers Anita herself to be responsible somehow for those threats.
I good point I'm stealing from someone else, can't remember where I read it, why is it suddenly such a focus on the so called misogynistic gaming industry? You see so much of this 'exploitation' of women everywhere else, TV, movies, advertising, music, I mean listen to nearly any 'rap' song and you will hear much worse than what is being developed within games. In reality it is such a small segment of games that you could even have these issues with.
I also find it interesting that while media, counter culture types would have you believe that it is the conservatives who would jump to the fascist thought police role, it is exactly the opposite, people like to think Christians try to force their beliefs on others but it sure seems like we are getting a whole lot of rules on how we should think and act thrown at us by the real 'open minded' folks.
I guess its only open minded if its exactly like theirs.
Actually no she isn't, shes a woman who went to a donation website, said "You give me money, ill make a series about sexism in games". Peopl… moree ate it up even though she hates games and had no prior experience, but hey, anything for money. She uses relatively unknown games which will allow her little opposition because people don't know the actual plot in that scene. She is a fraud, however its still not right for death and rape threats.
I good point I'm stealing from someone else, can't remember where I read it, why is it suddenly such a focus on the so called misogynistic g… moreaming industry? You see so much of this 'exploitation' of women everywhere else, TV, movies, advertising, music, I mean listen to nearly any 'rap' song and you will hear much worse than what is being developed within games. In reality it is such a small segment of games that you could even have these issues with.
I also find it interesting that while media, counter culture types would have you believe that it is the conservatives who would jump to the fascist thought police role, it is exactly the opposite, people like to think Christians try to force their beliefs on others but it sure seems like we are getting a whole lot of rules on how we should think and act thrown at us by the real 'open minded' folks.
I guess its only open minded if its exactly like theirs.
Bokor
Don't you think that there are more than enough people that agree with you and her that developers will create games more to your liking?
no one has ever said you have to play these games if they offend you so much. Now with so many other options available such as crowd funding, spend the money you would on games to try to get games more your style developed.
The free market works, try it instead of forcing your ideas on others
I wholeheartedly agree with her - hell, I think she's way too lenient on games. She's doing it out of true love for games. Just like me. … moreIf you love games so much that you're willing to have years of insecure babies screeching death threats at you for suggesting that things be done differently - then you must be doing something right.
And sending a death threat to silence her is terrorism and that man should be treated as such. It's too bad that not many boys seem to really understand the gravity of this problem.
Okay, guys, can somebody clarify something to me? I'm really confused as to what Sarkeesian DOES. The most common defense I hear of her is that she's just stating her own opinion while (and let's dust off the old finger quotes here) "journalists" say she's an academic. So is she making an argument or stating her opinion? I don't get it. She says games ca-oh wait lemme rephrase she said that games can "reinforces sexist ideas" which is incredibly wishy washy to begin with. If that's her opinion... well, that does not make it a fact. You can't just say: "oh, I think the industry is sexist" NO, either it is or it isn't!
If she truly is an academic like dem journos claim and she's presenting an argument... well she doesn't list her sources, gets facts about games wrong, misuses words constantly (even going as far as to make crappy fake ones) so that's not looking good either.
oh wait this is about guns??? eh... uh... guns don't kill people, but the postal dude does.
Comments
If we remove female tropes then we have to remove male tropes...No...
There are millions of female gamers, these "tropes" don't discourage women from playing, its just another thing for the America "Femnazi" to complain about.
[removed]
holy shit, top notch kek that is. I mean woo. Call in the internet police, someone told someone to 'fuck off'. Jesus Mary and Joseph. Bring in the banter squad.
Disgusting, more mentally scarring than ebola or all the kids dying from hunger.
Can confirm, saw it on CNN minutes ago.
I think I remember hearing Obama talk about how it was a tragedy to the nation. Millions crying.
Can confirm, saw it on CNN minutes ago.
Holy shit, just saw this on the BBC in the UK. Wide spread panic.
This just in. Russia just told America to fuck off, it's over. World War 3.
Uh...what? If by "remove female tropes," you mean that we should move away from tired cliches involving female characters, then yes we should do that. And similarly, yes, we should move away from tired cliches involving male characters as well. Wasn't one of the positive points with having someone like Clem be a protagonist that it supposedly averts the "buff, badass he-man mowing down zombies with a machine gun" trope? This is a good thing, no?
There are a lot of women gamers, yes, but a lot of them are turned off from certain genres by seeing oversexualized female characters as part of game advertising and the lack of many strong female protagonists. There's a reason why women have a tendency to flock more to RPGs that take the time to include female protagonist options than FPSs which usually just have a generic dude with a gun.
No, removing these is a horrible idea...It will turn off both genders. If women are so stubborn that they NEED a female protagonist, well we shouldn't care. When I play games I sometimes play as male and sometimes as female. We shouldn't have to conform to a certain side because no matter fucking what, one side will always be upset! Do you think I want to see shirtless men in every advertisement campaign with a 16 pack and rock hard abs? No I don't, so these women should suck it the fuck up, its a GAME, its not oppressing you!
Really? You're telling me that having more female protagonists and not hypersexualizing female characters would turn men off of games? I'm a male gamer and I for one welcome more female protagonists and characters who understand that a metal thong and bikini aren't appropriate battle attire.
People aren't asking for total girl power games here. They're just saying that, hey, maybe have female characters do things and have personalities rather than just sitting helplessly in a dungeon waiting to be saved. That wouldn't just make for more female-friendly games, it would make for better games, period.
Female characters DO have big roles in games, it depends of the game.
I'm getting tired of arguing with you all, you think having femnazi games will be better. The games we have now are good, I wanted to say that guys have to deal with tropes too. Women and everyone period should just shut the fuck up and enjoy a good game. I'm out, have fun with your Sarkeesian complex.
(I hope you don't take this offensively, i'm pretty pissed at the moment and not just at your females are victim arguments because THEY AREN'T in America these days and sure as hell aren't in Games. I'm venting... )
Well, Anita has this issue of deleting and silencing comments, her excuse it's because of trolls, when it's not really that simple, plenty of people have given a civil argument to her claims, but they're just saying she doesn't really have all her facts together and is coming off more as a feminist that's trying to push an aggressive agenda that's all about girl power and that men are stupid and evil, Anita seems like she's doing this just for the money and fame and making the famnazi's happy, of course maybe it's more complicated than that. I don't hate Anita, I just don't think she's that reliable or trusting.
I respect Anita's opinion and her right to freedom of speech. That being said I think she's a complete idiot too lazy and greedy to do five seconds of research for the videos she makes. She doesn't deserve rape/harassment threats obviously, but that doesn't change the fact that her fragile little ego can't even stand a differing opinion. If feminists have something to say, fine, but if they're going antagonize an entire demographic and then lie right to their faces they can't act surprised when people don't respect them.
She also steals people's videos.
Well maybe you can revisit this when you've sorted out whatever it is you have going on then, because your anger seems to be clouding your perception and understanding of what I'm trying to get across.
My anger is clouding my perception
Nope, still think its just stupid.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. It's sad how many people will defend someone so unprofessional just because she wears the banner of feminism. Really you can get away with just about anything these days so long as you support/target the right groups.
Yeah, if you disagree you're apart of the problem-thier slogan
I like how they say "Have stronger female characters" when we already do...
I think the process goes something like this:
And repeat. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Someone will always be upset, I say make a game you enjoy and forget their opinions.
I agree, make the game YOU want. Let people vote with their dollars, if they don't like they don't have to buy it.
Thats what people should worry about.
Typical of thirteen year old's.
Say something else demeaning, come on. You can do better than that. "Fuck off" is too weak.
Yes, good. Keep up the insults. Please.
Piss off?
If you did do research actual research on both sides not just woo is me Antia. You'd find out she faked some of the more 'aggressive' threats on her. That her extensive research is mostly stuff (like in her Hitman video) that she does out of her own free will.
For me, this problem is illustrated very clearly - some people have suggested there may be misogyny in gaming. The reaction to that was a level of dangerous misogyny and enabling of that misogyny the likes of which I have never seen, including death threats and rape threats. A serious problem has become apparent. But what usually gets discussed on a board like this? What Anita Sarkeesian did wrong in her videos or how she funded them. Not the misogyny, not the threats, not the problem.
Thus proving the problem.
But the thing is, discussing it with the problem is like Lee and Kenny gathering a bunch of zombies together to discuss the difficulties of living with walkers. "Me problem?! No, you problem." (They speak like Cookie Monster). There is rarely rational discussion.
The unfortunate part of all this in my personal opinion is that this will do damage to gaming for years to come. All those Daily Mail articles now have no end of fuel for the evils of gaming. It's not good for any of us who enjoy gaming.
Anita can have whatever opinion she chooses, but I quite frankly don't like her. Apparently she used footage from videos without permission. Plus, games are not meant to guide people on how to see issues, so it shouldn't matter if a certain gender is represented or not. Plus, there are plenty of strong female characters in games, Clementine, Lara Croft and others. Games are entertainment, and they're not usually meant to be used as social commentary, so whatever's entertaining is what the game should be.
As for gun laws, you shouldn't need assault weapons unless ISIS is on you're doorstep. You can defend yourself just fine with a handgun or bolt-action rifle. Australia had automatic guns, but they were banned after the Port Arthur massacre in 1996. Since then, there have been NO gun massacres over here. America's constitution was written during a time when you were expected to carry a gun, and it's now outdated. I'm not saying ban guns, but make sure you're not giving one to the next Adam Lanza.
You're not as hardcore as I thought... Just pathetic. If you're going to insult, go all in.
I can use feminazi whenever I want. You can't tell anyone not too with your misguided talk.
LOL NEVER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ZOMBIE AVATAR!
I like your style.
Guys, please try to behave and keep discussion civil. Please don't go around and passive aggressively instigate arguments. You know if this warning applies to you or not.
Consider this a warning to stay on topic and constructively discuss the topic without insults towards users. Thanks.
I think, totally opinion based on pretty good knowledge on how the FBI assesses threats, the statement the FBI deemed this not credible 'based on previous threats' that this was a stunt to bring attention to another agenda of Anita's. It is also implied by the 'previous threats' statement the FBI considers Anita herself to be responsible somehow for those threats.
Yeah, probably.
I good point I'm stealing from someone else, can't remember where I read it, why is it suddenly such a focus on the so called misogynistic gaming industry? You see so much of this 'exploitation' of women everywhere else, TV, movies, advertising, music, I mean listen to nearly any 'rap' song and you will hear much worse than what is being developed within games. In reality it is such a small segment of games that you could even have these issues with.
I also find it interesting that while media, counter culture types would have you believe that it is the conservatives who would jump to the fascist thought police role, it is exactly the opposite, people like to think Christians try to force their beliefs on others but it sure seems like we are getting a whole lot of rules on how we should think and act thrown at us by the real 'open minded' folks.
I guess its only open minded if its exactly like theirs.
Yeah, people like to blame anything else for their mistakes, gaming is just the latest one. People used to blame books and TV.
Welcome to the harsh world of opinions. "You either think like me or you're a (Add term here like sexist or racist)".
Bokor
Don't you think that there are more than enough people that agree with you and her that developers will create games more to your liking?
no one has ever said you have to play these games if they offend you so much. Now with so many other options available such as crowd funding, spend the money you would on games to try to get games more your style developed.
The free market works, try it instead of forcing your ideas on others
Okay, guys, can somebody clarify something to me? I'm really confused as to what Sarkeesian DOES. The most common defense I hear of her is that she's just stating her own opinion while (and let's dust off the old finger quotes here) "journalists" say she's an academic. So is she making an argument or stating her opinion? I don't get it. She says games ca-oh wait lemme rephrase she said that games can "reinforces sexist ideas" which is incredibly wishy washy to begin with. If that's her opinion... well, that does not make it a fact. You can't just say: "oh, I think the industry is sexist" NO, either it is or it isn't!
If she truly is an academic like dem journos claim and she's presenting an argument... well she doesn't list her sources, gets facts about games wrong, misuses words constantly (even going as far as to make crappy fake ones) so that's not looking good either.
oh wait this is about guns??? eh... uh... guns don't kill people, but the postal dude does.