Sorry for replying so late, I've been replying to so many people I forgot to reply to this post. It's that tough love again, not neglect.
… more
It's all good. I'll probably get back to you on this post later, as I have been at this debate for wayyyyy too long at this point lol.
They did exist though, you've just now willingly taken their life away, their chance to exist outside the womb alive has been stolen is what has happened. You aren't forcing them to raise the child, all we're saying is give the baby the chance to live that they deserve, no one is forcing the mother to keep the baby.
They do exist, my cup exists, again I though the connotation was implied, and for that I apologize. I don't think it's necessary to type out the implications of the word in use, such as Daniel Kahneman labeling his thoughts as "System 1 and System 2" I have done the same in labeling my implications as "living, existing, or others I may have forgotten." Sentience or producing signs of cognition are probably more precisely what I mean to entail in most regards, but I will undoubtedly continue calling it existence and living. Because for all intents and purposes my definition of "existing" in regards to humans goes beyond a literal accumulation of living cells or molecules, which is actually what this entire argument has largely been predicated on. The cells of a fetus are not a person (again, by scientific definition they are, I know) and I would rather look to helping a victim of rape in whichever way she requires than to look to helping a cluster of cells which doesn't exist (in any form beyond that of an accumulation of cells and without any signs of cognition or sentience). The grown woman has both of these. They do not have a life (again, beyond that of the literal definition of a few meager cells metabolizing). You cannot be conscious of being unconscious, and at that if consciousness never develops then that's as far as it goes. A woman who is conscious, is sentient, can think and feel and love and hate, should get priority over something that has none of those things and will never miss what it has never had. Would you miss the sun if it disappeared? Of course. Would you miss a star if it disappeared from the other side of the universe? Of course not, because you cannot miss something you don't know. A fetus knows nothing, a woman knows many things. Why the fuck should a non-sentient clump of cells get priority over someone who is here, now, and can feel and understand the events that are taking place around them (or inside of them)? It shouldn't. The fetus will not feel sad for not having been born, and if the mother would feel sad for it having been born, then it seems a completely one sided reasoning.
It is not at all heinous to ask someone to allow an innocent human being that has done nothing wrong to live.
It isn't heinous to ask (though it may be a bit awkward, and the woman may be irritated, and you may come off as a dick for it, but I digress), it's heinous to tell her that she is going to have the child. Big difference.
It is infinitely better to be a rape survivor as well as the mother of a living child, whether you are in his/her life or not, than to be a rape survivor as well as the mother of a dead child, who's life you willingly stole.
You cannot steal what you do not have. And that is only your opinion, not the opinion of everyone. Which is kind of the principal of the word "choice" in "pro-choice," is it not?
They did exist though, you've just now willingly taken their life away, their chance to exist outside the womb alive has been stolen is what… more has happened. You aren't forcing them to raise the child, all we're saying is give the baby the chance to live that they deserve, no one is forcing the mother to keep the baby. It is not at all heinous to ask someone to allow an innocent human being that has done nothing wrong to live. It is infinitely better to be a rape survivor as well as the mother of a living child, whether you are in his/her life or not, than to be a rape survivor as well as the mother of a dead child, who's life you willingly stole.
I understand if women want to have an abortion if they don't feel as though they are ready to be parents, it is their body so they should be able to do what they want.
And in my opinion, abortion isn't murder. The baby isn't even fully formed, so how can it be murder if they aren't even completely alive yet?
You prevent life every time you use birth control, or the day after pill, or even a condom. By directly intervening with the process (as wit… moreh abortion) you take steps to prevent the eventual birth of the child.
You're right, that's why I will never use protection.
Well, if scientifically proven fact and definition regarding human life doesn't convince you, and because you define "existence" quite differently than most people do, there isn't much else I can say without beating a dead horse. It's still wrong to rob someone of their life, regardless of what stage of development they're in. The baby isn't being prioritized over the mother, nothing terrible is going to happen to the mother by carrying the child for 9 months, as opposed to the other option where obviously something terrible is going to happen to the baby because they will be killed. Pregnancy is temporary, abortion is permanent. Who the hell would feel sad because a child has been born? What kind of sick person would be sad about that? If it's because she doesn't want the child then just give them up for adoption, there are even people who would pay all their medical expenses in exchange for the baby. It's a very simple solution. 9 months out of 70+ years of your own life is seriously not that big of a sacrifice, it is selfish to say it is.
It's not heinous to say she should carry it until it's born. Once again, she doesn't have to keep and raise the baby if she doesn't want to. It's heinous to force her to raise the baby even if she doesn't want to, more so because a child should never be in the care of someone who doesn't want them.
We've been over this, human life begins at fertilization/conception. Regardless of whether they've left the womb, when you get an abortion you have killed your child and taken their life away from them. By aborting that life, you are now the mother of a dead baby, that is nothing to be happy or relieved about. If someone is actually ok with being the mother of a dead child, then that's both incredibly sad and unnerving.
They did exist though, you've just now willingly taken their life away, their chance to exist outside the womb alive has been stolen is what… more has happened. You aren't forcing them to raise the child, all we're saying is give the baby the chance to live that they deserve, no one is forcing the mother to keep the baby.
They do exist, my cup exists, again I though the connotation was implied, and for that I apologize. I don't think it's necessary to type out the implications of the word in use, such as Daniel Kahneman labeling his thoughts as "System 1 and System 2" I have done the same in labeling my implications as "living, existing, or others I may have forgotten." Sentience or producing signs of cognition are probably more precisely what I mean to entail in most regards, but I will undoubtedly continue calling it existence and living. Because for all intents and purposes my definition of "existing" in regards to humans goes beyond a l… [view original content]
I am pro life and believe the woman who has the abortion does so for selfish reasons. That creation has every right to survive as much as you do. But I don't strongly vocalize it because I'll never be in that position & I would project an increase in infantile homocides if abortion was not an option.
Plus to my knowledge I don't believe there is an artificial appartacus that would allow a fetus to survive outside of a woman's womb so I understand that 9 months being a storage unit for a baby a woman does not want is a lot to ask.
I am pro life and believe the woman who has the abortion does so for selfish reasons. That creation has every right to survive as much as y… moreou do. But I don't strongly vocalize it because I'll never be in that position & I would project an increase in infantile homocides if abortion was not an option.
My point was forcing someone to carry and birth a baby would not end up being good. It was a hypothetical situation if abortion was outlawed. I would be interested in knowing if some of these infant deaths are because the women were talked out of having an abortion or talked into this responsibility she is not ready or interested in.
Well thanks for helping us out. Not even going to say how much time I spent, though you can kind of figure that out from looking through the comments <_<. It was a little entertaining to be honest, I don't get into these as often these days.
I have been at this debate for wayyyyy too long at this point lol.
Tell me about it, I just took like 2 hours out of my day off for this debate haha.:P
People will always find a reason to try and justify murder. But it is what it is. You're killing an unborn baby. The reason behind it doesn't change what it is.
Maybe the reason is justified, maybe it isn't. Who can judge such things? Bad things happen. But death is death and killing is killing.
I'm sorry that happened to you.
But it sounds like that you are taking something bad in your life, and turning it into something positive.
That's another thing a real man, or woman does.
People who are truly adults, take bad things that happen to them, and try to make them into something positive.
And the way they do that, is they don't allow their bad experiences to define them.
Granted, going through a traumatic experience does have an affect on a person, but the point is, they don't have to let it control their lives.
And from what you've said here, it sounds like you've not allowed the trauma you've suffered in your life to control your life.
And so, you have my sincerest congratulations.
Everyone goes through traumatic experiences, that just comes with being alive.
What matters is what you do afterward.
Keep up the good work!
You're welcome. I'm glad your father was and is such a positive influence in your life. I unfortunately cannot say the same for my father, h… moree was not right in the head. Thankfully my mother made sure to expose me to many good men when I was little to make up for his downfalls, such as the pastor at our church, and local policemen and firemen. If anything, because of my time with my father I know everything a real man isn't and shouldn't be. As you said, real men will protect and take care of their families no matter what, they aren't cowards, they face their responsibilities, they love their children unconditionally and are present in their lives trying to be the best role model they can be.
So, and this applies to both men and women, if you are having sex, be responsible by using condoms. And if you don't wanna use protection, than you need to be willing to accept whatever consequences may follow. And if you're not willing to do either… [view original content]
I believe it should be legal, and I understand that there are times where the procedure might be necessary to undergo, for instance, if the woman's life is at risk if she continues to carry to term. The rest of my views are pretty much exactly the same as Viva-La-Lee, Eddie_Maiden, and Lingvort.
No problem, this debate was pretty fun for the most part. But I did end up spending a lot more time than I initially planned to on this tbh. All your comments were very well though out and factually accurate, kudos for that. Yeah, I was a little surprised to see you participating so much, it's been a while since I've seen you debate like this, how's it feel to be back in the game?lol
Well thanks for helping us out. Not even going to say how much time I spent, though you can kind of figure that out from looking through the comments <_<. It was a little entertaining to be honest, I don't get into these as often these days.
I'm sorry that happened to you.
But it sounds like that you are taking something bad in your life, and turning it into something positive.
… more That's another thing a real man, or woman does.
People who are truly adults, take bad things that happen to them, and try to make them into something positive.
And the way they do that, is they don't allow their bad experiences to define them.
Granted, going through a traumatic experience does have an affect on a person, but the point is, they don't have to let it control their lives.
And from what you've said here, it sounds like you've not allowed the trauma you've suffered in your life to control your life.
And so, you have my sincerest congratulations.
Everyone goes through traumatic experiences, that just comes with being alive.
What matters is what you do afterward.
Keep up the good work!
All your comments were very well though out and factually accurate, kudos for that.
Thanks, and definitely same to you. Always good to have your input. Being completely honest, I was kind of hoping you would jump in a little lol.
Yeah I was a little surprised to see you participating so much, it's been a while since I've seen you debate like this, hows it feel to be back in the game?lol
Oh, it's just like old times. Can't have myself getting too rusty
No problem, this debate was pretty fun for the most part. But I did end up spending a lot more time than I initially planned to on this tbh.… more All your comments were very well though out and factually accurate, kudos for that. Yeah, I was a little surprised to see you participating so much, it's been a while since I've seen you debate like this, how's it feel to be back in the game?lol
I figured we were having this pretty cool double teaming thing going on, simultaneously debating with two other people and what not, didn't want to ruin that by butting into your "fight" lol.
it's just like old times. Can't have myself getting too rusty
I'm going to have to step my game up if this means you're back.XD
All your comments were very well though out and factually accurate, kudos for that.
Thanks, and definitely same to you. Always good … moreto have your input. Being completely honest, I was kind of hoping you would jump in a little lol.
Yeah I was a little surprised to see you participating so much, it's been a while since I've seen you debate like this, hows it feel to be back in the game?lol
Oh, it's just like old times. Can't have myself getting too rusty
I figured we were having a pretty cool double teaming thing going on, simultaneously debating with two other people and what not, didn't want to ruin that by butting into your "fight" lol.
Haha yeah, we kind of did. I was just talking about you being in the debate in general though. Just needed that extra little Tinni factor to really help push the argument lol.
I'm going to have to step my game up if this means you're back.XD
Nahh, you still have your essay posts, so I think you're set.
I was kind of hoping you would jump in a little
I figured we were having this pretty cool double teaming thing going on, simultaneou… moresly debating with two other people and what not, didn't want to ruin that by butting into your "fight" lol.
it's just like old times. Can't have myself getting too rusty
I'm going to have to step my game up if this means you're back.XD
I figured we were having a pretty cool double teaming thing going on, simultaneously debating with two other people and what not, didn't wan… moret to ruin that by butting into your "fight" lol.
Haha yeah, we kind of did. I was just talking about you being in the debate in general though. Just needed that extra little Tinni factor to really help push the argument lol.
I'm going to have to step my game up if this means you're back.XD
Nahh, you still have your essay posts, so I think you're set.
Oh haha, I tend to get involved in almost any debate nowadays. I'm like a magnet with these sort of topics, so no need to worry about me staying out of it. At least my input isn't unwelcome yet. XD
Oh yeah, my essay posts, man I got to find a way to shorten them or something, it just gets so ridiculous sometimes lol. Anyways, can't wait to see you debate more often.:)
I figured we were having a pretty cool double teaming thing going on, simultaneously debating with two other people and what not, didn't wan… moret to ruin that by butting into your "fight" lol.
Haha yeah, we kind of did. I was just talking about you being in the debate in general though. Just needed that extra little Tinni factor to really help push the argument lol.
I'm going to have to step my game up if this means you're back.XD
Nahh, you still have your essay posts, so I think you're set.
Well, I'm glad we were able to end the debate civilly. Again, I really am sorry for the way I worded that one part of my post, I just read it and realized how patronizing it sounded. I should have initially clarified that I was purposely speaking in that way so other readers of the thread, who may not be as knowledgeable in the areas of basic biology and science, could understand. I know you're a very intelligent person and would have understood regardless of how simplified my explanation was.
Just because life can be cruel and unfair doesn't give us the right to take someone else's life before they even leave the womb. Every human… more deserves a chance at life, and to knowingly interfere and steal that life away from them just because they don't yet have a voice or the means to fend for themselves is just not right.
Fine, I won't disagree with that point. I, however, still stand by my point about the rape pregnancy.
Once that life is terminated, that person is gone forever, they will never get another chance at life.
Well, if you believe in reincarnation... Ah, well, that's a whole another matter.
It's better to have lived than to have not lived at all.
Ah, well, I can agree with that (or maybe I just don't want to argue anymore). We still all die in the end.
Oh haha, I tend to get involved in almost any debate nowadays. I'm like a magnet with these sort of topics, so no need to worry about me sta… moreying out of it. At least my input isn't unwelcome yet. XD
Oh yeah, my essay posts, man I got to find a way to shorten them or something, it just gets so ridiculous sometimes lol. Anyways, can't wait to see you debate more often.:)
I'm pro choice, but I would prefer a woman to only terminate a pregnancy in cases of stuff like rape, incest, health issues that would harm the mother/kill the baby, ect. If it's not my body, it's not my choice. I'm a teenage girl, an accidental pregnancy could happen (theoretically, it could, but I'm religious so no sex till marriage), and I'd never have an abortion, but if someone else needs to, it's their choice, not mine.
Well, I'm glad, too. And, don't worry too much about that, especially if you didn't mean anything by it. I know basic biology more or less, but I'm pretty sure there might be people who don't. Maybe this would help them learn a bit more.
Well, I'm glad we were able to end the debate civilly. Again, I really am sorry for the way I worded that one part of my post, I just read i… moret and realized how patronizing it sounded. I should have initially clarified that I was purposely speaking in that way so other readers of the thread, who may not be as knowledgeable in the areas of basic biology and science, could understand. I know you're a very intelligent person and would have understood regardless of how simplified my explanation was.
I don't deny that the scientific word of existence applies to the fetus. I'm using it in lieu of others (expressed above). You can't rob something of what it does not have, it does not have sentience, and so I feel little regret in not giving it what it does not know exists. You aren't killing a person (implication, yes?), you're killing a cluster of cells. The mother is the only one affected if she has an abortion. Obviously something the mother deems terrible will happen to her if she carries a child for 9 months, gives birth, and then has to live with it and didn't want anything to do with it in the first place..
"Pregnancy is temporary, abortion is permanent."
Blah, blah, blah. Life itself is temporary, and I would not lessen the mother's for something that doesn't exist (in lieu, yes?).
"Who the hell would feel sad because a child has been born? What kind of sick person would be sad about that? If it's because she doesn't want the child then just give it up for adoption, there are even people who would pay all their medical expenses in exchange for the baby. It's a very simple solution. 9 months out of 70+ years of your own life is seriously not that big of a sacrifice, it is selfish to say it is."
The mother would! That's the entire point of giving her the choice in the first place! It isn't about not wanting the child, it's about knowing that you gave birth to a child caused by a fucking rape because you were forced to. Maybe you would be happy about a child's birth under any circumstances, more power to you, but a lot of women do not hold that sentiment and it's ridiculous to assume they would and/or force them to adopt the sentiment. So yes, people would be sad about it. And it's selfish to force her to have a child. Just because it sits well with you hardly means that it does the rape victims or their family or friends.
It's not heinous to say she should carry it until it's born.
"Should" I agree with you. Telling her she should isn't heinous (though it may... you're seen this spiel before). Telling her she will is. You're forcing her to give birth to something she doesn't want to give birth to, and she is being hurt (psychologically, perhaps even physically) by you forcing her to do so. The baby is not "hurt" in any fashion when it is aborted. It does not exist in any form that it could be hurt. The only thing in question here is the mother, that's it.
We've been over this, human life begins at fertilization/conception. Regardless of whether they've left the womb, when you get an abortion you have killed your child and taken their life away from them. By aborting that life, you are now the mother of a dead baby, that is nothing to be happy or relieved about. If someone is actually ok with being the mother of a dead child, then that's both incredibly sad and unnerving.
I don't give a fuck about the scientific definition of "life." Seaweed is alive, and I give little more importance to that then I do a cluster of cells in the womb that a woman doesn't want (Oh, but, the fetus has human DNA! No fucks were given, my butt skin flakes have that, it is not in a state to of cognitive ability, the mother is, so she is the only one who matters). The mother is sentient, the fetus is not. Fuck the fetus. The mother is the only one who bares what happens, and so it falls to her to decide, no one else. And anyone who would force a woman to either give birth or to seek abortion in a less safe manner is barbaric. Sigh. Well I'm done. Good bye.
That last paragraph came off much less professional than I had intended. My apologies.
Well, if scientifically proven fact and definition regarding human life doesn't convince you, and because you define "existence" quite diffe… morerently than most people do, there isn't much else I can say without beating a dead horse. It's still wrong to rob someone of their life, regardless of what stage of development they're in. The baby isn't being prioritized over the mother, nothing terrible is going to happen to the mother by carrying the child for 9 months, as opposed to the other option where obviously something terrible is going to happen to the baby because they will be killed. Pregnancy is temporary, abortion is permanent. Who the hell would feel sad because a child has been born? What kind of sick person would be sad about that? If it's because she doesn't want the child then just give them up for adoption, there are even people who would pay all their medical expenses in exchange for the baby. It's a very simple solution. 9 months ou… [view original content]
Yeah, there's no love lost on my end. So long as you guys continue to respect my opinion, even if you disagree with it, I'll always respect yours. It's impossible to agree on everything, what's important is to not let disagreements on these issues tear friendships apart.
Again, factually that cluster of cells is a person, they're just in the early stages of development. As I said before, if a fact doesn't convince you, then that means we're now in the realm of personal opinion, which has the potential to go beyond rationality and logic as one can see with a few of your posts. Though I find it odd that you are denying a fact by redefining "existence", as well as what qualifies a "life that matters", there's nothing I can do to make you to change your opinion, all I can do is other continue to repeat the facts. Something terrible will happen because there's more than one life involved. And again, if the mother doesn't want to raise the child she does not have to. It's not at all difficult to file for adoption.
In your opinion they don't exist, by normal standards they do, and it's a human life therefore it's important.
So a woman would be sad that their child who had no say or control in how they were conceived, who is just as innocent and is just as much of a victim she is, has been born and given a chance at life as opposed to being dead? So because someone is sad an innocent life should be killed? I have a feeling your answer will be "yes", and that's absolutely disgusting and unjustifiable. I've stated numerous times, she does not have to raise the child if she does not want to. Hell, immediately after she gives birth the hospital staff can remove her child if it sickens and saddens her that much to see them. Bottom line, the baby has done nothing wrong, the only guilty party that deserves punishment is the rapist.
The mother can be psychologically hurt even more so by killing her child, do you have any idea how many mothers who have had abortions ended up needing to go to therapy because they've fallen into a severe depression due to the intense regret they feel after taking their own child's life? It could happen days, months, or years after the abortion before they realize the irreversible mistake they've made, and the regret, grief and guilt sets in. It's much better to have birthed a child, given them up for adoption because you weren't ready to raise them, and then years later have the option to meet them if you'd like to, or at least take comfort in knowing that they had gone on living despite the unfortunate circumstances of their conception, instead of killing your child because you're upset and it pains you to think about how the baby came to be, and then have to live with the burden of knowing your first child is dead by your own willing hand, and you will never ever be able to take that back. They will regret their decision, it's all a matter of time. In addition to the pain caused by their rapist, now the pain of taking a human life will be on their conscience forever.
No duh seaweed is alive, but it's not a human life. You cannot make that comparison, it is nowhere near being the same. Dead skin cells on your ass is not the same as a developing human baby in the womb, skin cells are merely units that make up your body, a human baby is not. That's another irrational comparison that you've made that makes no sense logically. Both matter, because they are both human lives. The baby will become sentient, it's extremely unfair to use their stage of development against them, and it's not right to steal their chance at life away from them. It's awful and barbaric to allow a woman to kill their own baby for selfish reasons, regardless of how the baby was conceived, now they will have to carry the guilt and the knowledge that they've murdered their own child for the rest of their life. 9 months of your 70+ year life in exchange for another human life, to say the prior is asking too much is undeniably selfish. Do not under any circumstances take out your pain from being the victim of rape on the only other innocent party. It's very sad to see that you still think the life of a human baby is so disposable and meaningless simply due to them being in the early stages of development. You can keep denying scientific fact concerning human life, and redefining "existence" by your own standards, in the end you're really just making excuses and saying it's ok to kill a baby. I'm done with this as well. Have a nice day.
I don't deny that the scientific word of existence applies to the fetus. I'm using it in lieu of others (expressed above). You can't rob som… moreething of what it does not have, it does not have sentience, and so I feel little regret in not giving it what it does not know exists. You aren't killing a person (implication, yes?), you're killing a cluster of cells. The mother is the only one affected if she has an abortion. Obviously something the mother deems terrible will happen to her if she carries a child for 9 months, gives birth, and then has to live with it and didn't want anything to do with it in the first place..
"Pregnancy is temporary, abortion is permanent."
Blah, blah, blah. Life itself is temporary, and I would not lessen the mother's for something that doesn't exist (in lieu, yes?).
"Who the hell would feel sad because a child has been born? What kind of sick person would be sad about that? If it's because she doe… [view original content]
Personally, I hate abortion. But it's not my place to tell another woman what to do, she should make that decision on her own. I believe that life starts at conception. But, I won't hate the woman who decided not to keep her baby, because it was her right as a person to do so. I will never abort my own children, if I ever have any.
Yeah, there's no love lost on my end. So long as you guys continue to respect my opinion, even if you disagree with it, I'll always respect … moreyours. It's impossible to agree on everything, what's important is to not let disagreements on these issues tear friendships apart.
I normally stay out of these discussions online aside from my tumbrl but here we go.
I'm tokophobic (Fear of pregnancy/childbirth, for me it's ever getting pregnant) I would rather take a bullet to the brain then give birth or carry a fetus to term, I would rather risk death trying to have a miscarriage then give birth or be pregnant. I made up my mind I'm never getting pregnant, when my family talks about me having kids I feel like I'm going to have an anxity attack when I say I don't want kids of if I do I'm adopting and they respond with "your change your mind about having kids/ adopting." Or that (even an old close friend said this to me) I'm not fulfilling my role as a woman.
Pregnancy should be a blessing for the one wanting to carry and give birth, Pregnancy is NOT a punishment. And no, adoption is an alternative to parenting not pregnancy.
Just re-read my post, about where I discussed qualities that define real men, and women.
And then I read the part of my post, which you highlighted in your reply, and it got me to thinking; and I must admit that I'm surprised how many people have such a careless attitude when it comes to sex.
Even now, some of my friends treat it like a joke.
Which is very foolish, when you consider all the info about std's, and the horror stories of people afflicted with them, or the tragic ones that involve single moms.
And it makes me think of the piss-poor example that we as a society are setting for the next generation.
You would think, as a society, we should be looking to set a better example than that.
And granted their are those that are trying.
The problem is, is that most people have a "me-first" attitude.
And it all stems from that old motto: "live for today, as there may be no tomorrow."
While admittedly that motto does have some weight behind it, it also produces a selfish mindset in people.
With that kind of attitude, it's no wonder society is in the shape it's in.
That "live for today" attitude, is why we have such things as teen pregnancy, drug/alcohol abuse, theft, rape, corrupt business dealings, lying, exploitation, etc.
Cause each and everyone of those things boils down to one word: "selfishness."
You're welcome. I'm glad your father was and is such a positive influence in your life. I unfortunately cannot say the same for my father, h… moree was not right in the head. Thankfully my mother made sure to expose me to many good men when I was little to make up for his downfalls, such as the pastor at our church, and local policemen and firemen. If anything, because of my time with my father I know everything a real man isn't and shouldn't be. As you said, real men will protect and take care of their families no matter what, they aren't cowards, they face their responsibilities, they love their children unconditionally and are present in their lives trying to be the best role model they can be.
So, and this applies to both men and women, if you are having sex, be responsible by using condoms. And if you don't wanna use protection, than you need to be willing to accept whatever consequences may follow. And if you're not willing to do either… [view original content]
I LIKE PIZZA, and i'm a bit Tokophobic myself. Like when people want me to be around their kids, i don't like it. I don't want to hold kids, or anything like that.
I normally stay out of these discussions online aside from my tumbrl but here we go.
I'm tokophobic (Fear of pregnancy/childbirth, for me… more it's ever getting pregnant) I would rather take a bullet to the brain then give birth or carry a fetus to term, I would rather risk death trying to have a miscarriage then give birth or be pregnant. I made up my mind I'm never getting pregnant, when my family talks about me having kids I feel like I'm going to have an anxity attack when I say I don't want kids of if I do I'm adopting and they respond with "your change your mind about having kids/ adopting." Or that (even an old close friend said this to me) I'm not fulfilling my role as a woman.
Pregnancy should be a blessing for the one wanting to carry and give birth, Pregnancy is NOT a punishment. And no, adoption is an alternative to parenting not pregnancy.
So yeah 100% Pro-choice here,
Plus to my knowledge I don't believe there is an artificial appartacus that would allow a fetus to survive outside of a woman's womb so I understand that 9 months being a storage unit for a baby a woman does not want is a lot to ask.
I am too. I actually had a nightmare where I was pregnant. I feel kinda bad because my mom wants to be a grandmother, but it just skeevs me out so much.
I LIKE PIZZA, and i'm a bit Tokophobic myself. Like when people want me to be around their kids, i don't like it. I don't want to hold kids, or anything like that.
Yeah, there's no love lost on my end. So long as you guys continue to respect my opinion, even if you disagree with it, I'll always respect … moreyours. It's impossible to agree on everything, what's important is to not let disagreements on these issues tear friendships apart.
I know right. When i was eighteen i actually thought the answer to pregnancy was suicide. Its silly now to think that way, but at that time i really thought my life would be over, because my parents drilled that in my head.
The sex talk i got
Have Sex
Get Aids
Die
I don't like holding babies because of a fear of dropping them. Makes me wonder if i was dropped LOL.
I am too. I actually had a nightmare where I was pregnant. I feel kinda bad because my mom wants to be a grandmother, but it just skeevs me out so much.
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Tell me about it, I just took like 2 hours out of my day off for this debate haha.:P
They do exist, my cup exists, again I though the connotation was implied, and for that I apologize. I don't think it's necessary to type out the implications of the word in use, such as Daniel Kahneman labeling his thoughts as "System 1 and System 2" I have done the same in labeling my implications as "living, existing, or others I may have forgotten." Sentience or producing signs of cognition are probably more precisely what I mean to entail in most regards, but I will undoubtedly continue calling it existence and living. Because for all intents and purposes my definition of "existing" in regards to humans goes beyond a literal accumulation of living cells or molecules, which is actually what this entire argument has largely been predicated on. The cells of a fetus are not a person (again, by scientific definition they are, I know) and I would rather look to helping a victim of rape in whichever way she requires than to look to helping a cluster of cells which doesn't exist (in any form beyond that of an accumulation of cells and without any signs of cognition or sentience). The grown woman has both of these. They do not have a life (again, beyond that of the literal definition of a few meager cells metabolizing). You cannot be conscious of being unconscious, and at that if consciousness never develops then that's as far as it goes. A woman who is conscious, is sentient, can think and feel and love and hate, should get priority over something that has none of those things and will never miss what it has never had. Would you miss the sun if it disappeared? Of course. Would you miss a star if it disappeared from the other side of the universe? Of course not, because you cannot miss something you don't know. A fetus knows nothing, a woman knows many things. Why the fuck should a non-sentient clump of cells get priority over someone who is here, now, and can feel and understand the events that are taking place around them (or inside of them)? It shouldn't. The fetus will not feel sad for not having been born, and if the mother would feel sad for it having been born, then it seems a completely one sided reasoning.
It isn't heinous to ask (though it may be a bit awkward, and the woman may be irritated, and you may come off as a dick for it, but I digress), it's heinous to tell her that she is going to have the child. Big difference.
You cannot steal what you do not have. And that is only your opinion, not the opinion of everyone. Which is kind of the principal of the word "choice" in "pro-choice," is it not?
I understand if women want to have an abortion if they don't feel as though they are ready to be parents, it is their body so they should be able to do what they want.
And in my opinion, abortion isn't murder. The baby isn't even fully formed, so how can it be murder if they aren't even completely alive yet?
Atta boy
Well, if scientifically proven fact and definition regarding human life doesn't convince you, and because you define "existence" quite differently than most people do, there isn't much else I can say without beating a dead horse. It's still wrong to rob someone of their life, regardless of what stage of development they're in. The baby isn't being prioritized over the mother, nothing terrible is going to happen to the mother by carrying the child for 9 months, as opposed to the other option where obviously something terrible is going to happen to the baby because they will be killed. Pregnancy is temporary, abortion is permanent. Who the hell would feel sad because a child has been born? What kind of sick person would be sad about that? If it's because she doesn't want the child then just give them up for adoption, there are even people who would pay all their medical expenses in exchange for the baby. It's a very simple solution. 9 months out of 70+ years of your own life is seriously not that big of a sacrifice, it is selfish to say it is.
It's not heinous to say she should carry it until it's born. Once again, she doesn't have to keep and raise the baby if she doesn't want to. It's heinous to force her to raise the baby even if she doesn't want to, more so because a child should never be in the care of someone who doesn't want them.
We've been over this, human life begins at fertilization/conception. Regardless of whether they've left the womb, when you get an abortion you have killed your child and taken their life away from them. By aborting that life, you are now the mother of a dead baby, that is nothing to be happy or relieved about. If someone is actually ok with being the mother of a dead child, then that's both incredibly sad and unnerving.
I am pro life and believe the woman who has the abortion does so for selfish reasons. That creation has every right to survive as much as you do. But I don't strongly vocalize it because I'll never be in that position & I would project an increase in infantile homocides if abortion was not an option.
Plus to my knowledge I don't believe there is an artificial appartacus that would allow a fetus to survive outside of a woman's womb so I understand that 9 months being a storage unit for a baby a woman does not want is a lot to ask.
My point was forcing someone to carry and birth a baby would not end up being good. It was a hypothetical situation if abortion was outlawed. I would be interested in knowing if some of these infant deaths are because the women were talked out of having an abortion or talked into this responsibility she is not ready or interested in.
It would be hard to document though.
Well thanks for helping us out. Not even going to say how much time I spent, though you can kind of figure that out from looking through the comments <_<. It was a little entertaining to be honest, I don't get into these as often these days.
People will always find a reason to try and justify murder. But it is what it is. You're killing an unborn baby. The reason behind it doesn't change what it is.
Maybe the reason is justified, maybe it isn't. Who can judge such things? Bad things happen. But death is death and killing is killing.
I'm sorry that happened to you.
But it sounds like that you are taking something bad in your life, and turning it into something positive.
That's another thing a real man, or woman does.
People who are truly adults, take bad things that happen to them, and try to make them into something positive.
And the way they do that, is they don't allow their bad experiences to define them.
Granted, going through a traumatic experience does have an affect on a person, but the point is, they don't have to let it control their lives.
And from what you've said here, it sounds like you've not allowed the trauma you've suffered in your life to control your life.
And so, you have my sincerest congratulations.
Everyone goes through traumatic experiences, that just comes with being alive.
What matters is what you do afterward.
Keep up the good work!
I believe it should be legal, and I understand that there are times where the procedure might be necessary to undergo, for instance, if the woman's life is at risk if she continues to carry to term. The rest of my views are pretty much exactly the same as Viva-La-Lee, Eddie_Maiden, and Lingvort.
No problem, this debate was pretty fun for the most part. But I did end up spending a lot more time than I initially planned to on this tbh. All your comments were very well though out and factually accurate, kudos for that. Yeah, I was a little surprised to see you participating so much, it's been a while since I've seen you debate like this, how's it feel to be back in the game?lol
Thank you so much, that is beyond kind of you to say.:)
My pleasure, Tinni.
Thanks, and definitely same to you. Always good to have your input. Being completely honest, I was kind of hoping you would jump in a little lol.
Oh, it's just like old times. Can't have myself getting too rusty
I figured we were having this pretty cool double teaming thing going on, simultaneously debating with two other people and what not, didn't want to ruin that by butting into your "fight" lol.
I'm going to have to step my game up if this means you're back.XD
Haha yeah, we kind of did. I was just talking about you being in the debate in general though. Just needed that extra little Tinni factor to really help push the argument lol.
Nahh, you still have your essay posts, so I think you're set.
That I do.
We've finally found some topics we disagree on, pretty strongly in this instance actually.
Yeah, it was bound to happen eventually I suppose. I'm fine with that though, good to keep things interesting.
Oh haha, I tend to get involved in almost any debate nowadays. I'm like a magnet with these sort of topics, so no need to worry about me staying out of it. At least my input isn't unwelcome yet. XD
Oh yeah, my essay posts, man I got to find a way to shorten them or something, it just gets so ridiculous sometimes lol. Anyways, can't wait to see you debate more often.:)
Well, I'm glad we were able to end the debate civilly. Again, I really am sorry for the way I worded that one part of my post, I just read it and realized how patronizing it sounded. I should have initially clarified that I was purposely speaking in that way so other readers of the thread, who may not be as knowledgeable in the areas of basic biology and science, could understand. I know you're a very intelligent person and would have understood regardless of how simplified my explanation was.
This is why I love you guys xD
I'm pro choice, but I would prefer a woman to only terminate a pregnancy in cases of stuff like rape, incest, health issues that would harm the mother/kill the baby, ect. If it's not my body, it's not my choice. I'm a teenage girl, an accidental pregnancy could happen (theoretically, it could, but I'm religious so no sex till marriage), and I'd never have an abortion, but if someone else needs to, it's their choice, not mine.
Well, I'm glad, too. And, don't worry too much about that, especially if you didn't mean anything by it. I know basic biology more or less, but I'm pretty sure there might be people who don't. Maybe this would help them learn a bit more.
I don't deny that the scientific word of existence applies to the fetus. I'm using it in lieu of others (expressed above). You can't rob something of what it does not have, it does not have sentience, and so I feel little regret in not giving it what it does not know exists. You aren't killing a person (implication, yes?), you're killing a cluster of cells. The mother is the only one affected if she has an abortion. Obviously something the mother deems terrible will happen to her if she carries a child for 9 months, gives birth, and then has to live with it and didn't want anything to do with it in the first place..
Blah, blah, blah. Life itself is temporary, and I would not lessen the mother's for something that doesn't exist (in lieu, yes?).
The mother would! That's the entire point of giving her the choice in the first place! It isn't about not wanting the child, it's about knowing that you gave birth to a child caused by a fucking rape because you were forced to. Maybe you would be happy about a child's birth under any circumstances, more power to you, but a lot of women do not hold that sentiment and it's ridiculous to assume they would and/or force them to adopt the sentiment. So yes, people would be sad about it. And it's selfish to force her to have a child. Just because it sits well with you hardly means that it does the rape victims or their family or friends.
"Should" I agree with you. Telling her she should isn't heinous (though it may... you're seen this spiel before). Telling her she will is. You're forcing her to give birth to something she doesn't want to give birth to, and she is being hurt (psychologically, perhaps even physically) by you forcing her to do so. The baby is not "hurt" in any fashion when it is aborted. It does not exist in any form that it could be hurt. The only thing in question here is the mother, that's it.
I don't give a fuck about the scientific definition of "life." Seaweed is alive, and I give little more importance to that then I do a cluster of cells in the womb that a woman doesn't want (Oh, but, the fetus has human DNA! No fucks were given, my butt skin flakes have that, it is not in a state to of cognitive ability, the mother is, so she is the only one who matters). The mother is sentient, the fetus is not. Fuck the fetus. The mother is the only one who bares what happens, and so it falls to her to decide, no one else. And anyone who would force a woman to either give birth or to seek abortion in a less safe manner is barbaric. Sigh. Well I'm done. Good bye.
That last paragraph came off much less professional than I had intended. My apologies.
Yeah, there's no love lost on my end. So long as you guys continue to respect my opinion, even if you disagree with it, I'll always respect yours. It's impossible to agree on everything, what's important is to not let disagreements on these issues tear friendships apart.
Again, factually that cluster of cells is a person, they're just in the early stages of development. As I said before, if a fact doesn't convince you, then that means we're now in the realm of personal opinion, which has the potential to go beyond rationality and logic as one can see with a few of your posts. Though I find it odd that you are denying a fact by redefining "existence", as well as what qualifies a "life that matters", there's nothing I can do to make you to change your opinion, all I can do is other continue to repeat the facts. Something terrible will happen because there's more than one life involved. And again, if the mother doesn't want to raise the child she does not have to. It's not at all difficult to file for adoption.
In your opinion they don't exist, by normal standards they do, and it's a human life therefore it's important.
So a woman would be sad that their child who had no say or control in how they were conceived, who is just as innocent and is just as much of a victim she is, has been born and given a chance at life as opposed to being dead? So because someone is sad an innocent life should be killed? I have a feeling your answer will be "yes", and that's absolutely disgusting and unjustifiable. I've stated numerous times, she does not have to raise the child if she does not want to. Hell, immediately after she gives birth the hospital staff can remove her child if it sickens and saddens her that much to see them. Bottom line, the baby has done nothing wrong, the only guilty party that deserves punishment is the rapist.
The mother can be psychologically hurt even more so by killing her child, do you have any idea how many mothers who have had abortions ended up needing to go to therapy because they've fallen into a severe depression due to the intense regret they feel after taking their own child's life? It could happen days, months, or years after the abortion before they realize the irreversible mistake they've made, and the regret, grief and guilt sets in. It's much better to have birthed a child, given them up for adoption because you weren't ready to raise them, and then years later have the option to meet them if you'd like to, or at least take comfort in knowing that they had gone on living despite the unfortunate circumstances of their conception, instead of killing your child because you're upset and it pains you to think about how the baby came to be, and then have to live with the burden of knowing your first child is dead by your own willing hand, and you will never ever be able to take that back. They will regret their decision, it's all a matter of time. In addition to the pain caused by their rapist, now the pain of taking a human life will be on their conscience forever.
No duh seaweed is alive, but it's not a human life. You cannot make that comparison, it is nowhere near being the same. Dead skin cells on your ass is not the same as a developing human baby in the womb, skin cells are merely units that make up your body, a human baby is not. That's another irrational comparison that you've made that makes no sense logically. Both matter, because they are both human lives. The baby will become sentient, it's extremely unfair to use their stage of development against them, and it's not right to steal their chance at life away from them. It's awful and barbaric to allow a woman to kill their own baby for selfish reasons, regardless of how the baby was conceived, now they will have to carry the guilt and the knowledge that they've murdered their own child for the rest of their life. 9 months of your 70+ year life in exchange for another human life, to say the prior is asking too much is undeniably selfish. Do not under any circumstances take out your pain from being the victim of rape on the only other innocent party. It's very sad to see that you still think the life of a human baby is so disposable and meaningless simply due to them being in the early stages of development. You can keep denying scientific fact concerning human life, and redefining "existence" by your own standards, in the end you're really just making excuses and saying it's ok to kill a baby. I'm done with this as well. Have a nice day.
Personally, I hate abortion. But it's not my place to tell another woman what to do, she should make that decision on her own. I believe that life starts at conception. But, I won't hate the woman who decided not to keep her baby, because it was her right as a person to do so. I will never abort my own children, if I ever have any.
No worries at all, it's completely fine that we disagree, just as long as we both respect each other's right to disagree as you said.:)
I normally stay out of these discussions online aside from my tumbrl but here we go.
I'm tokophobic (Fear of pregnancy/childbirth, for me it's ever getting pregnant) I would rather take a bullet to the brain then give birth or carry a fetus to term, I would rather risk death trying to have a miscarriage then give birth or be pregnant. I made up my mind I'm never getting pregnant, when my family talks about me having kids I feel like I'm going to have an anxity attack when I say I don't want kids of if I do I'm adopting and they respond with "your change your mind about having kids/ adopting." Or that (even an old close friend said this to me) I'm not fulfilling my role as a woman.
Pregnancy should be a blessing for the one wanting to carry and give birth, Pregnancy is NOT a punishment. And no, adoption is an alternative to parenting not pregnancy.
So yeah 100% Pro-choice here,
Just re-read my post, about where I discussed qualities that define real men, and women.
And then I read the part of my post, which you highlighted in your reply, and it got me to thinking; and I must admit that I'm surprised how many people have such a careless attitude when it comes to sex.
Even now, some of my friends treat it like a joke.
Which is very foolish, when you consider all the info about std's, and the horror stories of people afflicted with them, or the tragic ones that involve single moms.
And it makes me think of the piss-poor example that we as a society are setting for the next generation.
You would think, as a society, we should be looking to set a better example than that.
And granted their are those that are trying.
The problem is, is that most people have a "me-first" attitude.
And it all stems from that old motto: "live for today, as there may be no tomorrow."
While admittedly that motto does have some weight behind it, it also produces a selfish mindset in people.
With that kind of attitude, it's no wonder society is in the shape it's in.
That "live for today" attitude, is why we have such things as teen pregnancy, drug/alcohol abuse, theft, rape, corrupt business dealings, lying, exploitation, etc.
Cause each and everyone of those things boils down to one word: "selfishness."
I LIKE PIZZA, and i'm a bit Tokophobic myself. Like when people want me to be around their kids, i don't like it. I don't want to hold kids, or anything like that.
I thought they were growing babies in labs now.
I am too. I actually had a nightmare where I was pregnant. I feel kinda bad because my mom wants to be a grandmother, but it just skeevs me out so much.
I'll just ditto what Tinni said. No worries to be had.
I know right. When i was eighteen i actually thought the answer to pregnancy was suicide. Its silly now to think that way, but at that time i really thought my life would be over, because my parents drilled that in my head.
The sex talk i got
Have Sex
Get Aids
Die
I don't like holding babies because of a fear of dropping them. Makes me wonder if i was dropped LOL.