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Is Holocaust numbers exaggerated?

goinoutwithabanggoinoutwithabang Banned
edited September 2015 in General Chat

[removed]

Comments

  • InGen_Nate_KennyInGen_Nate_Kenny Moderator

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    Yes.

  • DictatorAsylumDictatorAsylum

    enter image description here

  • AWESOMEOAWESOMEO Banned
    edited September 2015

    Hold on, let me go ask my dead relatives.

  • thestalkingheadthestalkinghead

    hitler literally did nothing wrong

    oh, and this is a dumb topic

  • SarangholicSarangholic
    edited September 2015

    In before thread gets closed!

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    All I read was "Hi, I would like to be banned immediately please!"

  • goinoutwithabanggoinoutwithabang Banned
    edited September 2015

    Why did 12 year olds invaded the thread -_-? Wanted to have a serious discussion instead i got "lol u gonna be banned now"

  • J-MasterJ-Master

    Humans have a tendency to not believe someone that evil would kill a bunch of people just because of their religion just like they wouldn't believe one madman would want to kill a bunch of children in a school. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if some people think ISIS is a made up boogeyman and its actually just a hoax.

  • SupernovaeHollaySupernovaeHollay

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    In all honesty, what the actual f***? You might as well deny World War 2 happening itself.

  • SarangholicSarangholic
    edited September 2015

    Most people don't take Holocaust denial seriously (myself included), not to mention this thread is probably illegal in some European countries.

    goinoutwithabang posted: »

    Why did 12 year olds invaded the thread -_-? Wanted to have a serious discussion instead i got "lol u gonna be banned now"

  • Green613Green613

    How do we know you even have relatives????

    enter image description here enter image description here enter image description here enter image description here enter image description here enter image description here enter image description here enter image description here enter image description here enter image description here enter image description here enter image description here enter image description here enter image description here

    AWESOMEO posted: »

    Hold on, let me go ask my dead relatives.

  • goinoutwithabanggoinoutwithabang Banned
    edited September 2015

    Seems like facts scare you

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    When American and British forces overran western and central Germany in the spring of 1945, they were followed by troops charged with discovering and securing any evidence of German war crimes.

    Among them was Dr. Charles Larson, one of America’s leading forensic pathologists, who was assigned to the US Army’s Judge Advocate General’s Department. As part of a US War Crimes Investigation Team, Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty other German camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for three days by US Army prosecutors. [1]

    Dr. Larson’s findings? In an 1980 newspaper interview he said: “What we’ve heard is that six million Jews were exterminated. Part of that is a hoax.” [2] And what part was the hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he “was the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater” of Allied military operations, [3] confirmed that “never was a case of poison gas uncovered.” [4]

    Sarangholic posted: »

    Most people don't take Holocaust denial seriously (myself included), not to mention this thread is probably illegal in some European countries.

  • J-MasterJ-Master
    edited September 2015

    Really? Now you're a conspiracy theorist cause the internet told you the Holocaust was fake? Okay...

    goinoutwithabang posted: »

    Seems like facts scare you When American and British forces overran western and central Germany in the spring of 1945, they we

  • SarangholicSarangholic
    edited September 2015

    Did you read your own sources? None of them suggest the Holocaust didn't happen - they confirm it did and question some of the particulars (like using human fat for soap) or the exact number of victims. The guy claming there was no use of lethal gas in the first article was a defense attorney. He's trying to get his client off by splitting as many hairs as he can. And I think the presence of ruined gas chambers is pretty damning evidence already. What else do you think they were used for, especially when the documentation is doctored? And one doctor with 100 autopies, when you have so many millions of people who died, many of them of starvation or of being shot, really doesn't mean much.

    goinoutwithabang posted: »

    Seems like facts scare you When American and British forces overran western and central Germany in the spring of 1945, they we

  • Welcome_to_WoodburyWelcome_to_Woodbury Banned
    edited September 2015

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    dripping with sarcasm

    Edit: Nice topic name change. Now my joke doesn't make any sense.

  • goinoutwithabanggoinoutwithabang Banned

    Oh you mean like wikipedia? lol. How about you do some REAL research?

    1. The Camps[1]

    Everyone has heard that during the Second World War German authorities systematically killed many hundreds of thousands of prisoners, especially Jews, in concentration camps.[2] For example, in his closing address to the Nuremberg Tribunal (July 26, 1946), chief British prosecutor Sir Hartley Shawcross said that "more than six million" Jews were killed by the Germans, and that

    "[…] murder [was] conducted like some mass production industry in the gas chambers and the ovens of Auschwitz, Dachau, Treblinka, Buchenwald, Mauthausen, Majdanek and Oranienburg."[3]

    Some months earlier – in late April and early May 1945 – an American congressional delegation of six US senators and six US congressmen visited three German concentration camps: Dachau, Buchenwald and Nordhausen. In these camps, the American lawmakers concluded in their report, German authorities carried out "a calculated and diabolical program of planned torture and extermination". The delegation's report was published as an official US Senate document. American newspapers gave prominent coverage to the report, which was also a US prosecution exhibit at the main Nuremberg trial.[4]

    How valid are such accusations? How have they held up with the passage of time? Before focusing on two of the most important of the German wartime camps – Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen – we take a quick look at the camp system in general, with an eye to answering these and similar questions. What was the purpose of these camps? How were they administered?
    1.1. Abandoned Extermination Claims

    Since the end of the Second World War in 1945, many claims about mass killings in German wartime camps – claims that were once widely accepted and backed with apparently impressive evidence – have been quietly dropped. No reputable historian still accepts, for example, the claim made by the Soviet prosecution at Nuremberg that at one camp the Germans used "special electrical appliances for the mass murder of the doomed". Prisoners allegedly were killed there in a special "building where the floor was electrified in a special way".[5] Similarly discredited is the Nuremberg claim by the American prosecution that Jews were systematically killed at the Treblinka camp by steaming them to death.[6]

    At Nuremberg and for some years afterward it was seriously claimed that many inmates were systematically gassed at Dachau, Buchenwald and other concentration camps in Germany proper. Allied prosecutors at Nuremberg presented seemingly solid proof of such gassings. Over the past several decades, however, nearly all claims of gassings and mass extermination at these and other camps in Germany proper have been quietly abandoned. No reputable historian of this subject now supports the once supposedly proven story of "extermination camps" in the territory of the old German Reich.

    A US War Department official, Stephen F. Pinter, looked into the claims of mass extermination in German camps. In a letter published in 1959 he summarized his findings:[7]

    "I was in Dachau for 17 months after the war, as a US War Department Attorney, and can state that there was no gas chamber at Dachau. What was shown to visitors and sightseers there and erroneously described as a gas chamber, was a crematory. Nor was there a gas chamber in any of the other concentration camps in Germany. We were told that there was a gas chamber at Auschwitz, but since that was in the Russian zone of occupation, we were not permitted to investigate, since the Russians would not permit it.

    […Often cited is] the old propaganda myth that millions of Jews were killed by the National Socialists. From what I was able to… determine during six years in Germany and Austria, there were a number of Jews killed, but the figure of a million was certainly never reached. I interviewed thousands of Jews, former inmates of concentration camps in Germany and Austria, and consider myself as well qualified as any man on this subject."

    An authoritative debunking of many execution gassing stories was provided in 1960 by Martin Broszat, an official (and later director) of the semi-official Institute for Contemporary History (Institut für Zeitgeschichte) in Munich. "Neither in Dachau, nor in Bergen-Belsen, nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners gassed", he wrote in a letter published in the Hamburg weekly Die Zeit. Broszat acknowledged that there were no mass gassings in any of the camps in Germany proper, and noted that the "inmates who died in Dachau or other concentration camps in the Old Reich [Germany in its borders of 1937] were above all victims of the catastrophic hygienic and supply conditions".[8] Broszat (who died in 1989) did not present any evidence for his statement, nor did he explain why the apparently convincing "testimonies" and official "proofs" for gassings at camps in Germany proper were no longer to be considered valid.

    French-Jewish historian Olga Wormser-Migot likewise concluded in her detailed 1968 study of the German concentration camp system that the stories of execution gas chambers in Germany proper and Austria are mythical.[9] Part of the reason for the persistence of baseless 'gas chamber' stories, she wrote, is confusion about the distinction between a gas chamber and a crematory. Another factor, perhaps more basic, is an 'unconscious desire' to keep alive the memory of the evil wartime treatment of the Jews. Psychologically, the 'gas chamber' has become one of the "leitmotifs of the heroic epic of the deportation".[10]

    Even noted 'Nazi hunter' Simon Wiesenthal has acknowledged (in 1975 and again in 1993) that "there were no extermination camps on German soil".[11]

    The Holocaust story these days is that there were only six 'extermination' camps, all of them in what is now Poland. Prominent Holocaust historians now claim that masses of Jews were gassed at just six sites: Auschwitz (including Birkenau), Majdanek (Lublin), Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno and Belzec.[12]
    1.2. No Documentary Evidence

    The German authorities kept astonishingly detailed records of every aspect of camp affairs.[13] Remarkably, though, there is no contemporary documentary evidence of homicidal gassings or of a policy of mass extermination in the camps. Not a single contemporary German document mentions or even refers to killings of Jews in gas chambers. Nor are there any contemporary plans or diagrams of extermination gas chambers. There is similarly no documentary proof that any of the various rooms or buildings said to have been execution gassing facilities were, in fact, ever used as such.

    What 'evidence' there is for mass extermination in the German wartime camps consists entirely of dubious 'testimony', either from a handful of German officials (such as the now discredited "confession" of former Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höß), or from a small number of former inmates.[14]

    'Eyewitnesses' of gassings are rare. Only a small number of persons has ever claimed to have seen such execution gas chambers in operation, and their scant descriptions of homicidal gassings are typically cursory, vague and/or contradictory. As a number of historians have acknowledged, such testimony is not very credible. Holocaust historian Gitta Sereny has warned that quite a few of the familiar 'eyewitness' testimonies are nothing more than baseless hearsay. Some of the best-known 'memoirs' of extermination gassings, she complains, are "partial or complete fakes, such as Jean-François Steiner's Treblinka or Martin Gray's For Those I Loved".[15]

    Similarly, the archives director of Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center has confirmed that more than 10,000 of the 20,000 'testimonies' of Jewish 'survivors' on file there are "unreliable". Many survivors, wanting "to be part of history", apparently let their imaginations run away with them, director Shmuel Krakowski said in 1986.[16]
    1.3. Wartime Development of the Camp System

    At the outbreak of war in 1939, there were six relatively small concentration camps (Konzentrationslager) in Germany (including Austria). Including their subordinate 'satellite camps', these held a total of 21,400 inmates.[17]

    As Germany's demand for labor in war-related industries grew, and it became obvious that the conflict would not end quickly, attention turned to the camp inmates as an important source of manpower. Accordingly, the camp system was placed under the control of a new "SS Economic-Administrative Main Office" (SS Wirtschafts-Verwaltungshauptamt) or WVHA, headed by Oswald Pohl, a former naval officer. Headquartered in Oranienburg, just north of Berlin, the agency was created in early 1942 "to utilize prisoner labor on a large scale".[18]

    Until 1942, Jews were not held in the concentration camps in large numbers. (A notable exception was the temporary "protective custody" roundup of many Jews in the wake of the infamous November 1938 'Crystal Night' outbreak of violence. After a few days or weeks, these detainees were released.) In January 1942, SS chief Heinrich Himmler explained that the concentration camps would now have to "deal with major economic tasks", and ordered that the camps should therefore prepare for the reception of 100,000 Jewish men and up to 50,000 Jewish women during the next several weeks.[19]

    Camp system administrator Pohl confirmed the new policy in an April 1942 report to Himmler:[20]

    "The war has brought about a marked change in the structure of the concentration camps, and has changed their function with regard to the employment of the prisoners. The custody of prisoners for reasons of security, education or prevention is no longer the main consideration.

    The mobilization of all prisoner labor resources for war-related tasks (increase in armament production) and, later, for peacetime reconstruction work, is becoming more and more important. Accordingly, measures have now become necessary to gradually transform the concentration camps from their earlier one-sided political role into an organization suited for economic tasks."

    In his attached order to camp commandants (and others), Pohl wrote:

    "The camp commandant alone is responsible for the employment of the labor personnel. This employment must be exhaustive, in the full sense of the term, and meant for the highest level of efficiency [Leistung]."

    As a result, both the number of camps and the number of inmates increased dramatically during the remaining war years. The camps became enormous forced labor centers where inmates were employed in production essential to the war effort, not only in SS industrial work but in many private German firms. In accord with the new policy, large numbers of Jews were diverted to the camps. As Pohl euphemistically put it in a September 1942 communication to Himmler:

    "Employable Jews who are migrating [that is, are being deported] to the East will have to interrupt their journey and work in war-related industry."[21]

    The number of internees (Jewish and non-Jewish) in Pohl's WVHA camp system grew steadily: 110,000 in September 1942, more than 154,000 in March 1943, about 200,000 by May-June 1943, and nearly 225,000 by August 1943.[22] By April 1944, the WVHA system had grown to 20 full-fledged concentration camps (KL) and 165 satellite labor camps.[23]

    In a June 1944 speech to military commanders, Himmler reported with some satisfaction on the productivity of his enormous camp work force:[24]

    "In this year of the war, 40 million working hours of labor are now devoted to war production every month in the concentration camps. Most, or up to nine-tenths, of the concentration camp inmates are non-Germans and criminals [sic]. They produce one-third of the German fighter planes. One-third of the German rifle barrels are now produced there with just one German foreman for every 90 prisoners. Countless other things are manufactured, from the finest optical instruments to munitions and enormous quantities of mortars and 3.7 flak guns. In addition, these camp workers are building great underground factories."

    In mid-August 1944, the WVHA camp system held 524,000 people.[25] By January 1945, this figure had grown to about 714,000. The actual number of inmates may have been substantially higher, as many tens of thousands of people – many of them Jews – were hastily brought into the camps during the war's final chaotic months.[26]

    As extensive at it was, the concentration camp network did not include ghettos or camps under the control of the Higher SS and Police Leaders, where most Jews were held. In addition to Jews in concentration camps such as Auschwitz-Birkenau, Lublin (Majdanek) and Bergen-Belsen, many hundreds of thousands of Jews were held in numerous special labor camps and company camps, especially in Poland and the occupied Soviet territories.[27]
    1.4. Measures to Reduce Deaths

    As already suggested, it has been widely claimed that Germany's wartime camps were organized to systematically kill as many prisoners as possible. The masses of dead and dying inmates in the camps liberated by Allied forces during the final weeks of the war in Europe certainly seemed to confirm this view. While incontestably large numbers of prisoners perished in the camps, succumbing especially to typhus and other diseases, such deaths were not due to any policy or program. To the contrary, German authorities undertook extensive measures to save the lives of concentration camp inmates.

    SS chief Himmler responded to reports of large-scale deaths in the camps with an urgent letter on December 16, 1942, to camp system administrator Pohl:

    "Efforts absolutely must be taken to reduce the death rate in the concentration camps by improving the nutrition and, whenever possible and necessary, the working conditions. The camp commandants are to be held personally responsible for this."[28]

    Acting on this, SS officer Richard Glücks, head of the WVHA agency that supervised the camps, sent a secret directive on December 28, 1942, to every concentration camp, including Buchenwald, Auschwitz and Majdanek (Lublin). It noted with alarm that more than half of recent arrivals in the camps – 70,000 out of 136,000 – had died. "With such a high death rate", Glücks added, "the number of prisoners can never be brought to the level ordered by the Reichsführer SS [Himmler]."[29]

    Glücks went on to order that

    "[…] camp physicians must use all means at their disposal to significantly reduce the death rate in the various camps. […] More than they have in the past, the camp doctors must supervise the nutrition of the prisoners and, in cooperation with the administration, submit improvement recommendations to the camp commandants. [...] The camp doctors are to see to it that the working conditions at the various labor sites are improved as much as possible.

    The secret directive concluded:

    "The Reichsführer SS has ordered that the death rate absolutely must be reduced."

    Glücks followed up by pointedly informing the concentration camp commandants in January 1943:

    "As I have already pointed out, every means must be used to lower the death rate in the camp."[30]

    In a secret order of October 26, 1943, to the commandants of the major camps, including Buchenwald, Auschwitz and Lublin (Majdanek), Pohl laid down specific measures to ensure the health and productivity of the internees.[31] Each commandant, he wrote, was to personally see to it that this directive was brought to the attention of his camp administrator and head camp physician, who had to confirm receipt with their signatures. A copy of the order was sent to Himmler.

    Pohl's directive began by stressing the importance of the camps in the war effort:

    "Because of our work during the past two years, the concentration camps now represent a factor of decisive military importance in armaments production. From nothing we have built an armaments works without parallel.

    In earlier years, because of the educational-rehabilitation purpose that prevailed at the time, it was not important whether the prisoners performed productive work. Now, however, the labor productivity of the prisoners is important, and all measures by commandants, administrators and physicians must be directed above all at maintaining the health and the productivity of the prisoners.

    […] In this regard, the following are necessary:

    1. Nutrition that is proper and appropriate for the work.

    2. Proper and appropriate clothing.

    3. Use of every natural means of maintaining good health.

    4. Avoidance of all unnecessary exertions unless directly required to maintain productivity."

    Pohl went on to cite specific measures for improving the health and well-being of the prisoners:

    "The mid-day lunch should consist of 1.25 to 1.5 liters – not thin soup, but thick, substantial meals.

    Receipt of additional [food] parcels is to be encouraged.

    Meal time and proper digestion requires rest. For this reason, there should be sufficient rest periods at mealtime. No unnecessary marches. The food should be brought to the people, not the people to the food.

    In addition to warm food, clothing is needed to keep the body warm and protect it from cold. This is especially important in the case of prisoners who work outside.

    Care must be taken to ensure an undisturbed night-time sleep period of at least seven to eight hours.

    Roll calls should be kept as brief as possible."

    Pohl also specified that ill prisoners in the sick bays were to receive a special diet to help restore their health, and that good work and helpful suggestions by inmates were to be rewarded with bonuses.

    While such measures were not always implemented as ordered, these high-level directives did not fail to have an impact.

    Pohl reported to Himmler in September 1943 that the monthly death rate in the camps had fallen from about ten percent in the summer and fall of 1942 to about two percent in August 1943. "The reduction in the mortality rate", he went on, "is due primarily to the fact that the hygienic measures that have long been demanded have now been carried out, at least to a larger extent". Himmler thanked Pohl for his work, and expressed the belief that the situation would improve still further once better sewerage and sanitary facilities were installed.[32]
    2. Buchenwald: Legend and Reality

    Buchenwald is widely regarded as one of wartime Germany's most notorious "death camps". In fact, though, this carefully cultivated image bears little resemblance to reality. Today, more than half a century after the end of the Second World War, the camp deserves another, more objective look.
    2.1. History and Function

    The Buchenwald concentration camp was located on a wooded hill outside of Weimar. It was opened in July 1937. Until the war years, almost all the inmates were either professional criminals or political prisoners (most of them ardent Communists). Some 2,300 Buchenwald inmates were pardoned in 1939 in honor of Hitler's 50th birthday.

    At the outbreak of war in September 1939 the camp population was 5,300. This grew slowly to 12,000 in early 1943, and then increased rapidly as many foreign workers, especially Poles, Ukrainians and Russians, were brought for employment in war production.[33]

    During the war years Buchenwald was expanded into a vast complex of more than a hundred satellite factories, mines and work shops spread across a large portion of Germany. The most important of these was probably the Dora underground plant, which produced V-2 missiles. In October 1944 it became the independent Nordhausen (

    J-Master posted: »

    Really? Now you're a conspiracy theorist cause the internet told you the Holocaust was fake? Okay...

  • SarangholicSarangholic

    enter link description here

  • goinoutwithabanggoinoutwithabang Banned

    Many thousands of Jews arrived at Buchenwald from Hungary and various eastern camps in 1944 and 1945. Most had been evacuated by railroad from Auschwitz and other camps threatened by the advancing Red Army.[35]

    The number of inmates increased enormously during the final months of the war: 34,000 in November 1943, 44,000 in April 1944, and 80,000 in August 1944. A monthly peak was reached at the end of February 1945, when 86,000 inmates were crammed into the severely overcrowded camp. Almost 30,000 inmates were evacuated from Buchenwald during the week before the U.S. Army takeover on 11 April 1945. Altogether a total of 239,000 persons were interned in the camp between 1937 and April 1945.[36]
    2.2. The Commandant and His Wife

    The first Commandant, Karl Koch, ran Buchenwald from 1937 until early 1942, when he was transferred to Majdanek. He proved a notoriously brutal and corrupt administrator who enriched himself with valuables stolen from numerous inmates, whom he then had killed to cover up his thefts. The camp physician, Dr. Waldemar Hoven, murdered many inmates in cooperation with Koch and the Communist underground camp organization. Koch was eventually charged by an SS court with murder and corruption, found guilty and executed.[37]

    His wife, Ilse Koch, was involved in many of her husband's crimes, but the fantastic charge that she had lamp shades and other items manufactured from the skins of murdered inmates is not true. This allegation was made by the United States prosecution team at the main Nuremberg trial.[38]

    General Lucius D. Clay, Commander in Chief of U.S. Forces in Europe and Military Governor of the U.S. Occupation Zone of Germany, 1947-49, carefully reviewed the Ilse Koch case in 1948 and found that, whatever her other misdeeds, the lampshade charge was baseless. He commuted her sentence from life imprisonment to four years and informed the Army Department in Washington:

    "There is no convincing evidence that she [Ilse Koch] selected inmates for extermination in order to secure tatooed skins or that she possessed any articles made of human skin."[39]

    During a 1976 interview Clay recalled the case:[40]

    "We tried Ilse Koch. […] She was sentenced to life imprisonment, and I commuted it to three [four] years. And our press really didn't like that. She had been destroyed by the fact that an enterprising reporter who first went into her house had given her the beautiful name, the "Bitch of Buchenwald," and he had found some white lampshades in there which he wrote up as being made out of human flesh.

    Well, it turned out actually that it was goat flesh. But at the trial it was still human flesh. It was almost impossible for her to have gotten a fair trial.

    […] The Germans picked her up and gave her 12 years for her treatment of her own people. But it wasn't really a war crime in the strict sense of the word.

    And those are the kinds of things that we had to deal with all the time."
    2.3. The Inmates: Life and Death

    There is no question that many atrocities were committed against Buchenwald inmates. However, at least a very large portion of them were committed, not by the German SS guards, but by the underground Communist camp organization that gained almost total internal control after 1943. This remarkable situation was confirmed in a detailed U.S. Army intelligence document of 24 April 1945 entitled Buchenwald: A Preliminary Report.[41] This confidential analysis remained classified until 1972.

    In a short preface, Army intelligence chief Alfred Toombs called this secret report "one of the most significant accounts yet written on an aspect of life in Nazi Germany" because it "tells how the [Buchenwald] prisoners themselves organized a deadly terror within the Nazi terror." The general accuracy of the report had been independently confirmed, Toombs added.

    As large numbers of foreigners began arriving at the camp during the war years, the confidential report noted, the understaffed SS found it necessary to turn over an ever larger share of camp administration to the inmates themselves. In practice this meant that by 1943 the well-organized and disciplined Communist inmate organization had taken virtually total control of the camp's internal operation. As the report explained:

    "The trusties had wide powers over their fellow inmates. At first they were drawn almost exclusively from the German criminals. This period lasted until 1942. But gradually the Communists began to gain control of this organization. They were the oldest residents, with records of 10-12 years in the concentration camps […] They clung together with remarkable tenacity, whereas the criminal elements were simply out for their own individual welfare and had little group cohesiveness. The Communists maintained excellent discipline and received a certain amount of direction from outside the camp. They had brains and technical qualifications for running the various industries established at the camp.

    Their advances were not made without resistance from the criminals, but gradually the criminals were eliminated from power, partly by intimidation, partly with the aid of the SS. Numbers of the criminals were killed by beatings, hangings, or injections of phenol into the heart or of air or milk into the veins. The injections were a specialty of the camp doctor [Hoven], who became a partisan of the Communist faction.

    Besides the top positions in the trusty organization, there were a number of key Communist strongholds in the administration of the camp. One was the food supply organization, through which favored groups received reasonable rations while others were brought to the starvation level. A second was the hospital, staffed almost exclusively by Communists. Its facilities were largely devoted to caring for members of their party […] Another Communist stronghold was the Property Room […] Each German trusty obtained good clothing and numerous other valuables. The Communists of Buchenwald, after ten or twelve years in concentration camps, are dressed like prosperous business men. Some affect leather jackets and little round caps reminiscent of the German navy, apparently the uniform of revolution."

    As a result of all this:

    "[…] Instead of a heap of corpses or a disorderly mob of starving, leaderless men, the Americans [who captured the camp] found a disciplined and efficient organization in Buchenwald. Credit is undoubtedly due to the self-appointed Camp Committee, an almost purely Communist group under the domination of the German political leaders.

    […] The trusties, who in time became almost exclusively Communist Germans, had the power of life and death over all other inmates. They could sentence a man or a group to almost certain death […] The Communist trusties were directly responsible for a large part of the brutalities committed at Buchenwald."

    Communist block chiefs, the report stated, would personally beat their charges and "sometimes forced whole blocks to stand barefoot in the snow for hours, apparently on their own initiative." The Communists killed "large numbers" of Polish inmates who refused to submit to their rule. They forced French inmates to give up thousands of Red Cross parcels. The report mentioned several particularly brutal Communist camp leaders by name.

    It confirmed that the camp physician, Dr. Hoven, had been an important Communist ally who killed numerous criminal and anti-Communist political prisoners with lethal injections. An SS investigation team uncovered his activities during the war and sentenced him to death for murder. However, because of the critical wartime shortage of doctors, he was reprieved after 18 months in jail. After the war the Communists tried to protect their ally, but Hoven was sentenced to death for a second time by a U.S. military tribunal and executed in 1948.

    Camp Communists maintained close relations with the well-organized underground Communist party on the outside.

    "From Buchenwald an inmate went out regularly to establish contact with a Communist courier bringing news and instructions. Bound by his loyalty to the Party, the contact man never made use of his opportunity to escape personally."

    The Communist camp military organization had three machine guns, fifty rifles and a number of hand grenades. The German Communists lived better than any other group. The report noted:

    "Even now they may be distinguished from the rest of the inmates by their rosy cheeks and robust health, though they have been in concentration camps for much longer than the others."

    Finally, the report's authors warned against the simplistic and naive notion that former inmates should be trusted and helped just because they had been interned in German camps.

    "Some are in fact 'bandits,' criminals from all Europe or foreign workers in Germany who were caught stealing […] They are brutalized, unpleasant to look on. It is easy to adopt the Nazi theory that they are subhuman."

    A book published in 1961 by the Communist-run "International Buchenwald Committee" of East Berlin proudly describes the wartime activities of the camp's Communist underground. It ran an underground camp newspaper, an illegal radio transmitter, an inmate orchestra (which played Communist songs), a large library and even a military organization. It held Communist ceremonies and political meetings, and carried out extensive sabotage of German war production.[42]

    Former Buchenwald inmate Ernst Federn, a Jew, explained after the war how the Communist camp organization cooperated with the SS to increase its own power and eliminate opponents and undesirables. He recalled that the leader of the Jewish section of the Communist camp organization, Emil Carlebach, "declared quite frankly that for him only his [Communist] friends counted, that everybody else might as well perish." Federn reported that he personally witnessed two acts of brutality by Carlebach, who was a Block Senior from 1942 until 1945. In one case he ordered the death of a fellow Jewish inmate for allegedly mistreating inmates at another camp. On another occasion Carlebach personally beat an elderly Jewish inmate from Turkey to death because he had unavoidably relieved himself in the barracks.[43]

    Similarly, an Englishman who spent 15 months in Buchenwald reported after the war that the Communist camp organization did not consider the Jewish inmates particularly worth trying to keep alive.[44]

    In recent years some homosexual organizations have claimed that thousands of homosexuals were "systematically exterminated" in the German concentration camps.[45] While it is true that many were interned as criminals, no homosexual was ever killed by the Germans for that reason alone. It is also worth recalling that during the 1930s and 1940s, homosexual behavior was considered an odious crime in most of the world, including the United States.

    A former Buchenwald inmate recalled in 1981:

    "[…] Homosexuals were oppressed by the Nazis because of their social mores […] In Buchenwald, a great number of them were not killed by the Nazis, but by political prisoners [Communists], because of the homosexuals' aggressive and offensive behavior."[46]

    Day-to-day conditions were much better than most portrayals would suggest. Inmates could both receive and send two letters or postcards monthly. They could receive money from the outside. Inmates were also paid for their labor with special camp currency which they could use to purchase a wide variety of items in the camp canteen. They played soccer, handball and volleyball in their spare time. Soccer matches were held on Saturdays and Sundays on the camp playing field. A large camp library offered a wide range of books. A motion picture theater was very popular. There were also variety shows, and musical groups put on regular concerts in the central square. A camp brothel, which employed 15 prostitutes when the Americans arrived, was available to many inmates.[47]
    2.4. Extermination Factory?

    The Americans who arrived at Buchenwald in April 1945 found hundreds of sick inmates and many unburied corpses in the camp. Horrific photos of these gruesome scenes were immediately circulated throughout the world and have been widely reproduced ever since, giving the impression that Buchenwald was a diabolical mass killing center.

    The American government encouraged this impression. A U.S. Army report about Buchenwald prepared for the Supreme Allied Headquarters in Europe and made public at the end of April 1945 declared that the "mission of the camp" was "an extermination factory".[48] And two weeks later a U.S. Congressional report on German camps, later used as a Nuremberg trial document, was issued which likewise described Buchenwald as an "extermination factory".[49]

    This superficially plausible description is, however, completely wrong. The great majority of those who died at Buchenwald perished during the chaotic final months of the war. They succumbed to disease, often aggravated by malnutrition, in spite of woefully inadequate efforts to keep them alive. They were victims, not of an 'extermination' program, but rather of the terrible overcrowding and severe lack of food and medical supplies due to a general collapse of order in Germany during the tumultuous final phase of the war.

    Along with these indirect victims of the war were many healthy inmates. B. M. McKelway inspected Buchenwald shortly after the U.S. takeover as one of a group of American newspaper editors and publishers. He reported that "many of the hundreds of inmates we saw appeared to be healthy while others suffering from dysentery, typhus, tuberculosis and other diseases were living skeletons."[50]

    One striking indication that Buchenwald was not an 'extermination' camp is the fact that some of the internees were children too young to work. An estimated one thousand boys, aged two to 16, were housed in two special children's barracks. Train transports of Jewish children arrived from 1942 to 1945. Some arrived from Auschwitz in 1943. Other Jewish children came from Hungary and Poland.[51] The confidential U.S. Army report of April 24, 1945, noted the "most remarkable sight of the children" who "rush about, shrieking and playing".[52]
    2.5. The Gas Chamber Lie

    Perhaps the most vicious lie circulated after the war about Buchenwald is the charge that the Germans exterminated inmates there in gas chambers. An official French government report submitted to the Nuremberg tribunal as a prosecution exhibit imaginatively stated:

    "Everything had been provided for down to the smallest detail. In 1944, at Buchenwald, they had even lengthened a railway line so that the deportees might be led directly to the gas chamber. Certain [of the gas chambers] had a floor that tipped and immediately directed the bodies into the room with the crematory oven."[53]

    The chief British prosecutor at the main Nuremberg trial, Sir Hartley Shawcross, declared in his closing address that "murder [was] conducted like some mass production industry in the gas chambers and the ovens" of Buchenwald and other camps.[54]

    In a book published in 1947, French priest Georges Henocque, former chaplain of the Saint-Cyr Military Academy, claimed to have visited the inside of a Buchenwald gas chamber, which he described in detail. This particular story has been cited as a good example of the kind of Holocaust lies which even prominent personalities are capable of inventing.[55]

    Another French priest and former inmate, Jean-Paul Renard, made a similar claim about the camp in his own book published shortly after the war:

    "I saw thousands and thousands of persons going into the showers. Instead of liquid, asphyxiating gases poured out over them."

    When fellow Frenchman and former Buchenwald inmate Paul Rassinier pointed out to the priest that there was no gas chamber in the camp, Renard replied:

    "Right, but that's only a figure of speech […] and since those things existed somewhere, it's not important."[56]

    In a book published in 1948, Hungarian Jewish writer Eugene Levai charged that the Germans killed tens of thousands of Hungarian Jews at Buchenwald in gas chambers.[57]

    A widely distributed booklet issued by the Jewish Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith also spread the tale that people were gassed at Buchenwald.[58]

    In 1960 the Buchenwald gassing story was officially declared a fable. As mentioned before, in that year, Martin Broszat of the anti-Hitler Institute for Contemporary History in Munich specifically stated that no one was ever gassed at Buchenwald.[8] Professor A.S. Balachowsky, a member of the Institut de France, likewise declared in November 1971:

    "I would like to confirm to you that no gas chamber as such existed at Buchenwald […]."[59]

    Holocaust writer Konnilyn Feig conceded in her book, Hitler's Death Camps, that Buchenwald did not have a gas chamber.[60] Today no serious historian still claims gassings there.
    2.6. How Many Perished?

    The numbers of persons estimated to have perished at Buchenwald while it was under German control vary tremendously. According to former inmate Elie Wiesel, the prolific Jewish writer and 1986 Nobel Peace Prize recipient, "In Buchenwald they sent 10,000 to their deaths every day."[61] This wildly irresponsible statement is, unfortunately, all too typical of the glib rhetoric of the man who was also chosen to head the U.S. government's official Holocaust Memorial Council.

    The 1980 edition of the World Book Encyclopedia claimed that "more than 100,000" died in the camp.[62] The Encyclopaedia Judaica put the number at 56,549.[63] Raul Hilberg, writing in the 1982 edition of the Encyclopedia Americana, stated that "more than 50,000 died in the Buchenwald Complex".[64]

    The U.S. Army intelligence report of April 24, 1945, (cited above) noted that the total number of certified deaths was 32,705.[65] A detailed June 1945 U.S. government report about Buchenwald put the total at 33,462, of whom more than 20,000 died in the chaotic final months of the war.[66]

    The authoritative International Tracing Service of Arolsen, an affiliate of the International Red Cross, stated in 1984 that the number of documented deaths (of both Jews and non-Jews) at Buchenwald was 20,67 1, with another 7,463 for Dom (Mittelbau).[67]

    While even these lower figures are regrettably high, it is important to realize that the great majority of those who died at Buchenwald were unfortunate victims of a catastrophic war, not German policy. Most of the rest were murdered by order of the Communist underground camp organization. Several hundred were also killed in Allied bombing attacks.

    In one air raid against a large munitions factory near the main camp, British bombers killed 750 persons, including 400 inmates.[68]
    2.7. American and Soviet Atrocities

    Following the American takeover of Buchenwald in April 1945, about 80 remaining German guards and camp functionaries were summarily murdered. Inmates brutally beat the Germans to death, sometimes with the aid and encouragement of American soldiers.[69] Between 20 and 30 GIs took turns gleefully beating six young Germans to death.[70] Inmates also commandeered American jeeps and drove to nearby Weimar, where they looted and randomly killed German civilians.[71]

    After the war the Soviet secret police operated Buchenwald as a concentration camp for "potential class enemies" and other "possibly dangerous" German civilians. In September 1949, more than four years after the end of the war, there were still 14,300 inmates in the "special camp". (While Buchenwald was under German c

    goinoutwithabang posted: » [view original content]
  • goinoutwithabanggoinoutwithabang Banned

    No its not

    enter image description here

    Sarangholic posted: »

    Did you read your own sources? None of them suggest the Holocaust didn't happen - they confirm it did and question some of the particulars (

  • goinoutwithabanggoinoutwithabang Banned

    Here have an article with over 100 sources

    http://codoh.com/library/document/1170/

    J-Master posted: »

    Really? Now you're a conspiracy theorist cause the internet told you the Holocaust was fake? Okay...

  • J-MasterJ-Master

    I'm not really going to bother with your conspiracy drivel, so I'll just let you and your "conspiracy friends" think all Jews are communists and are out to get you. Peace.

    goinoutwithabang posted: »

    Here have an article with over 100 sources http://codoh.com/library/document/1170/

  • goinoutwithabanggoinoutwithabang Banned

    "Facts offend me" ;)

    J-Master posted: »

    I'm not really going to bother with your conspiracy drivel, so I'll just let you and your "conspiracy friends" think all Jews are communists and are out to get you. Peace.

  • J-MasterJ-Master

    "I'm completely nuts." ;)

    goinoutwithabang posted: »

    "Facts offend me"

  • DAISHIDAISHI

    You know some of us actually have relatives that lived through the death camps.

  • DAISHIDAISHI

    Mind you, the OP posted an article by a known white supremacist. No bias there.

  • goinoutwithabanggoinoutwithabang Banned

    look up Typhus

    DAISHI posted: »

    You know some of us actually have relatives that lived through the death camps.

  • goinoutwithabanggoinoutwithabang Banned

    Is this guy a "white supremacist" too ?

    enter link description here

    DAISHI posted: »

    Mind you, the OP posted an article by a known white supremacist. No bias there.

  • DAISHIDAISHI

    Vincent Reynouard? You know he isn't a historian.

    goinoutwithabang posted: »

    Is this guy a "white supremacist" too ? enter link description here

  • DAISHIDAISHI

    Not to mention he's denied independently verified crimes beside the prison camps.

    goinoutwithabang posted: »

    Is this guy a "white supremacist" too ? enter link description here

  • DAISHIDAISHI

    Oh and by the way, Vinvent Reynouard is an admirer of Nazism and proponent of an adapted form of it. So, no bias there again, obviously.

    goinoutwithabang posted: »

    Is this guy a "white supremacist" too ? enter link description here

  • goinoutwithabanggoinoutwithabang Banned

    [removed]

    DAISHI posted: »

    Vincent Reynouard? You know he isn't a historian.

  • DAISHIDAISHI

    Shut up? Fuck off.

    goinoutwithabang posted: » [view original content]
  • goinoutwithabanggoinoutwithabang Banned

    enter link description here

    enter link description here

    enter link description here

    i could go on and on

  • DAISHIDAISHI

    Yeah, it's called "stacking the deck," and it's a dishonest form of debate typically used by 6 Day Creationists and other ill informed idiots.

    goinoutwithabang posted: »

    enter link description here enter link description here enter link description here i could go on and on

  • goinoutwithabanggoinoutwithabang Banned
    edited September 2015

    ill informed idiots

    Oh the irony

    DAISHI posted: »

    Yeah, it's called "stacking the deck," and it's a dishonest form of debate typically used by 6 Day Creationists and other ill informed idiots.

  • DAISHIDAISHI

    Here are articles about the Holocaust by real historians.

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt14bt4nf?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicSearch?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt9qchqd?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicSearch?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt16gzj0m?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicSearch?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt14bt4nf?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicSearch?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt16gzbvn?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicSearch?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none

    I could go on and on:

  • DAISHIDAISHI

    Here, let me go on and on:

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt9qchqd?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicSearch?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt9qd11w?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicSearch?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt5vjjs1?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicSearch?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt9qd11w?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicSearch?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none

  • DAISHIDAISHI

    Look, I'll keep going on and on:

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt5vkgt1?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicSearch?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt14bt4nf?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicSearch?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt2jcr41?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicSearch?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt9qchqd?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicResults?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none&si=26

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt9qfxkp?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicResults?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none&si=26

  • DAISHIDAISHI

    I'll keep going on and on:

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt9qchqd?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicResults?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none&si=26

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt9qfxkp?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicResults?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none&si=26

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt5vkgt1?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicResults?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none&si=26

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt5vkw38?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=the&searchText=holocaust&searchUri=/action/doBasicResults?Query=the+holocaust&acc=off&wc=on&fc=off&group=none&si=26

  • goinoutwithabanggoinoutwithabang Banned

    [removed]

  • goinoutwithabanggoinoutwithabang Banned
    edited September 2015

    Also most of these "historians" use faked evidence and pictures see here; if numbers real as they say why do they need to censor people who speak against it?

    evidence they have; a brick :S. this totally proves that there were gas chambers

    enter image description here

    enter link description here

This discussion has been closed.