Who says you have to be an AJ- or baby-hater to like the "theory?" I certainly don't hate AJ. And I happen to like the idea. It's just a twist on the story, is all.
AJ haters
Who says you have to be an AJ- or baby-hater to like the "theory?" I certainly don't hate AJ. And I happen to like the idea. It's just a twist on the story, is all.
Might be an interesting idea, but I'm 100% sure all your evidence is just shitty writing on Telltale's part. AJ is alive because plot armour. That's Season 2 for ya.
There is something similar like this in a movie called Goya's Ghost. Nathan Portman's character is brutally tortured by the catholic church while pregnant. During the torture she slips in and out of consciousness and doesn't remember when she birth the baby. So she stuffs her shirt and believes that the lump is her baby. Also, objects that resemble infants she believes that it is her child, even other babies she believes that they are her's
Not exactly. In the Jane ending, Clem would hear it, and Jane would look at Clem after she did. In the Kenny ending, they both hear it, only further backing up the OP's theory.
Or maybe Jane actually hid the baby and had no reason to be surprised when she heard it cry. Also, i would think if the baby's' cry really was a hallucination then Clementine would not have been able to find its body right away... nor would Jane have had any reason to hide the baby in a safe place if it were already dead.
Not exactly. In the Jane ending, Clem would hear it, and Jane would look at Clem after she did. In the Kenny ending, they both hear it, only further backing up the OP's theory.
Or maybe Jane actually hid the baby and had no reason to be surprised when she heard it cry. Also, i would think if the baby's' cry really w… moreas a hallucination then Clementine would not have been able to find its body right away... nor would Jane have had any reason to hide the baby in a safe place if it were already dead.
Actually, Sialark is probably the smartest person I've met on these forums, and far more polite too. So saying that don't have an elementary school education is kind of douchey, don't you think? Besides, I'm pretty sure what they're saying is correct. Considering this is the Meaning of theory
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
That kind of sounds like a theory can be made with no evidence at all and just a hunch, or a series of evidence. This guys theory is right in the middle. It has evidence, and while it's not evidence that's entirely easy to confirm, it's the closest thing he has to evidence.
Actually, Sialark is probably the smartest person I've met on these forums
Daww y u so sweet? ;.;
and far more polite too.
Lol well I'm a little impolite sometimes.
Tbh I did forget the exact definition of "theory" and had to look it up myself. But forgive me for not remembering the absolute exact definition of a term I had memorized years and years ago and don't use on any daily basis these days. (Tho fyi DoubleJump, I was a bamf in school and tutored fellow students in science as well as other subjects myself.)
Actually, Sialark is probably the smartest person I've met on these forums, and far more polite too. So saying that don't have an elementary… more school education is kind of douchey, don't you think? Besides, I'm pretty sure what they're saying is correct. Considering this is the Meaning of theory
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
That kind of sounds like a theory can be made with no evidence at all and just a hunch, or a series of evidence. This guys theory is right in the middle. It has evidence, and while it's not evidence that's entirely easy to confirm, it's the closest thing he has to evidence.
don't you think it would be more likely that she would be seeing/hearing things that she's familiar with, like Lee?
Wasn't there that dream flashback sequence of Lee when Clementine got shot. That could always count for a hallucination. Jane hiding the baby would make more sense too, like she's trying to snap Clementine and Kenny out of it!
God I love this theory! Even if it isn't true, I love it! =D
Okay, so the whole hallucination thing stems from Clem's mental state as OP has stated before right? While she has gone through several trau… morematic events, don't you think it would be more likely that she would be seeing/hearing things that she's familiar with, like Lee? Why would she be hallucinating over some baby that she barely knows and hasn't grown strong feelings for? Throughout the whole season, Clem thinks back to Lee and even has a dream/memory about him, if anything or anyone would bring her comfort, it'd be him. But that's even if you believe her mind has become so fragile which I don't believe it has and there's no evidence to it. If she was hearing voices/things, seeing things, or occasionally losing consciousness I might be able to bite, but Clem appears to have it together.
And as far as AJ crying/smiling, that's simply TellTale taking some liberties there. For most people, seeing a baby smile makes them happy and that was to… [view original content]
No offense but I guess you didn't read the rest of my comment. I mentioned the dream/memory she has after she gets shot but that's not a hallucination, it's a dream, otherwise everyone on the planet is hallucinating every night.
Jane hiding the baby makes perfect sense period though. The original intent was to reveal Kenny's inner demon and just how far he'd be willing to go. And that doesn't make sense since after Clem's dream, everyone is in the car and who is holding the baby... Jane. It's not in her character at all to do something like carrying around a zombified infant, she would have gotten rid of it.
And again, Clem hallucinating just doesn't make sense given the fact that there is no evidence that she would be. It would be an interesting theory if it had anything to back it up.
don't you think it would be more likely that she would be seeing/hearing things that she's familiar with, like Lee?
Wasn't there tha… moret dream flashback sequence of Lee when Clementine got shot. That could always count for a hallucination. Jane hiding the baby would make more sense too, like she's trying to snap Clementine and Kenny out of it!
God I love this theory! Even if it isn't true, I love it! =D
Mmmk. Wasn't calling him an idiot or anything like that. I'm just saying I know what a theory is and others as well since we should all have been to school. This argument is getting rediculous and your making it worse, so please just stop.
Actually, Sialark is probably the smartest person I've met on these forums, and far more polite too. So saying that don't have an elementary… more school education is kind of douchey, don't you think? Besides, I'm pretty sure what they're saying is correct. Considering this is the Meaning of theory
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
That kind of sounds like a theory can be made with no evidence at all and just a hunch, or a series of evidence. This guys theory is right in the middle. It has evidence, and while it's not evidence that's entirely easy to confirm, it's the closest thing he has to evidence.
Wasn't calling him an idiot or anything like that.
Uh huh. Sure, because "Or you can just have at least an elementary school education." totally is not a way to let someone know that you think they're stupid.
This argument is getting rediculous and your making it worse, so please just stop.
First of all, I agree, this argument is getting pretty dumb. Second of all, I'm making it worse? I'm just stating a fact pal, you're the one getting all upset. Third, "Rediculous"? I think you mean, Ridiculous.
Mmmk. Wasn't calling him an idiot or anything like that. I'm just saying I know what a theory is and others as well since we should all have been to school. This argument is getting rediculous and your making it worse, so please just stop.
Actually, Sialark is probably the smartest person I've met on these forums
Daww y u so sweet? ;.;
and far more polite too.
… more
Lol well I'm a little impolite sometimes.
Tbh I did forget the exact definition of "theory" and had to look it up myself. But forgive me for not remembering the absolute exact definition of a term I had memorized years and years ago and don't use on any daily basis these days. (Tho fyi DoubleJump, I was a bamf in school and tutored fellow students in science as well as other subjects myself.)
Too bad Telltale probably doesn't have the stones to go through with this. The whole thing about the baby not eating is probably just a plothole and S3 Clem won't be a delusional mess. I'll give you props, though. Your theory has a couple of questionable arguments thrown in there but overall I'd definitely pay money for a twist like that.
The whole time Lee has been alive, he and Clementine switched bodies!
And you're probably wondering who is the S3 protagonist, right? I'm confirming this right here at TTGCCC(Telltale Games Community Comic-Con) that Johnny from the Room will be the protagonist! Voiced by Tommy Wiseau, he will be slaying the dead and living to help save Lee, a man trapped in a 11 year old's body.
Wasn't calling him an idiot or anything like that.
Uh huh. Sure, because "Or you can just have at least an elementary school educati… moreon." totally is not a way to let someone know that you think they're stupid.
This argument is getting rediculous and your making it worse, so please just stop.
First of all, I agree, this argument is getting pretty dumb. Second of all, I'm making it worse? I'm just stating a fact pal, you're the one getting all upset. Third, "Rediculous"? I think you mean, Ridiculous.
Hey guys! Things haven't gotten too out of hand yet, but let's please try to keep things nice and civil. It's ok to disagree, but let's keep it constructive and civil! Thanks.
She doesn't seem like the type to sugarcoat that kind of thing happening.
Except for the fact that Jaime had fallen apart when she was confronted with the real world, to the point that she didn't want to get up and move anymore, or even live anymore. Perhaps Jane learned from that time, and decided to humor Clem. Being too blunt might just have Clem break down like Jaime did, to dire consequences.
While she has gone through several traumatic events, don't you think it would be more likely that she would be seeing/hearing things that she's familiar with, like Lee? Why would she be hallucinating over some baby that she barely knows and hasn't grown strong feelings for?
Well don't forget Lee was only with Clementine for a little over 3 months, while Clem was with Christa for 16 months. A once-pregnant Christa. Who once had a baby. Did you forget about this little scene?
You ask why Clem wouldn't be seeing/hearing things she's more familiar with, but she could've been more familiar with Christa's baby than she was with Lee, given the timeskip. You ask why would she be hallucinating over a baby she barely knows and hasn't grown feelings for? Well what if Clem was projecting Christa's baby onto AJ? Clem probably had some affection for Christa's baby at least, and could've imagined AJ being alive as a way to cope with having lost Christa's baby, and going into a "No, not again...not again..." state.
Clem thinks back to Lee and even has a dream/memory about him
I wouldn't say that that was absolutely 100% a dream/memory with no other possibility of what it could've been. Remember Clem had just been shot, and had just lost a lot of blood. (Loss of blood leads to hypotension/low blood pressure, which can lead to brain hypoxia, which can lead to hallucinations.) You could interpret that little Lee scene as not a dream/memory, but a hallucination, or it could've been interpreted as Clem "meeting" Lee in the afterlife/in heaven/in limbo to speak with him and get advice from him, before returning back to consciousness.
But that's even if you believe her mind has become so fragile which I don't believe it has and there's no evidence to it.
There's no real evidence against it either. Given the fact that she's an eleven-year-old girl, I honestly was expecting her to crack some time in this season. Heck this could explain why Clem appeared so "emotionless" and "boring" to some people--why wasn't she reacting more to the situations around her, why wasn't she breaking down more or getting angrier or something? And the answer is: because, she had already cracked. We just didn't realize it, because we saw everything through Clem's eyes. Everything we saw was through Clem, so of course we're looking through filtered lenses, so to speak. We're seeing everything Clem sees, and not anything anyone else sees.
occasionally losing consciousness
Well like we talked about, she did lose consciousness when she got shot. She also was close to losing consciousness, or just out-right drowning in that lake if she tried to save Luke (if you failed one of the QTEs in that scene, Clem could actually die underwater, signifying how oxygen-deprived she was.) And like I said before, brain hypoxia (aka loss of oxygen) can lead to hallucinations.
And as far as AJ crying/smiling, that's simply TellTale taking some liberties there. For most people, seeing a baby smile makes them happy and that was to make the player grow more attached. The lack of crying is the same, babies cry a lot, TellTale just didn't want to be annoying the players with the amount of crying that would normally be happening since it can be loud, and at times non-stop. And you can add the diapers onto the list of things TellTale either didn't want to bog down players with or naturally thought it was a bad idea to do, while it may have made things feel more genuine, this is a video game about zombies not nanny-simulator.
Frankly, none of that excuses the fact that it was still pretty shit writing. In a game that is literally all about survival, here's a baby--something that needs the most things to survive--food, diapers, care to keep him crying at any time--and...all of that's completely and utterly ignored. Again, the OP's idea explains a lot of these plot holes that the game just otherwise does not address.
Okay, so the whole hallucination thing stems from Clem's mental state as OP has stated before right? While she has gone through several trau… morematic events, don't you think it would be more likely that she would be seeing/hearing things that she's familiar with, like Lee? Why would she be hallucinating over some baby that she barely knows and hasn't grown strong feelings for? Throughout the whole season, Clem thinks back to Lee and even has a dream/memory about him, if anything or anyone would bring her comfort, it'd be him. But that's even if you believe her mind has become so fragile which I don't believe it has and there's no evidence to it. If she was hearing voices/things, seeing things, or occasionally losing consciousness I might be able to bite, but Clem appears to have it together.
And as far as AJ crying/smiling, that's simply TellTale taking some liberties there. For most people, seeing a baby smile makes them happy and that was to… [view original content]
Jane hiding the baby makes perfect sense period though.
What doesn't make sense to me is how, at the very end of the fight, when Kenny is about to stick that knife through Jane's chest, Jane doesn't say AJ is alive. She's a survivor; you'd think if Kenny was about to kill her, just to save her own skin at least, she'd say, "Wait! AJ's alive, just in the car!"
...But what if AJ really wasn't alive? What if Jane couldn't bring herself to say AJ was alive, because, it wasn't true? What if she really was trying to get Kenny to wake up to reality, and she knew that, prior to her AJ-hiding plan, at any time, Kenny might just realize that AJ was indeed dead, and then what would happen?
No offense but I guess you didn't read the rest of my comment. I mentioned the dream/memory she has after she gets shot but that's not a hal… morelucination, it's a dream, otherwise everyone on the planet is hallucinating every night.
Jane hiding the baby makes perfect sense period though. The original intent was to reveal Kenny's inner demon and just how far he'd be willing to go. And that doesn't make sense since after Clem's dream, everyone is in the car and who is holding the baby... Jane. It's not in her character at all to do something like carrying around a zombified infant, she would have gotten rid of it.
And again, Clem hallucinating just doesn't make sense given the fact that there is no evidence that she would be. It would be an interesting theory if it had anything to back it up.
She doesn't say anything about it to again show Clem how far Kenny is willing to go and I doubt Kenny would have stopped there, he more than likely would have assumed it was her trying to save her skin and just kept going through with it. At that point, Kenny has no reason to believe her and they've both already drawn blood on the other so Kenny has his anger and adrenaline pumping through his veins. It wouldn't have mattered at all if she told him the truth, Kenny made up his mind the moment he stormed back into that room.
And again, why would Jane carry a zombified infant with her through the blizzard and and go through the effort to hide it instead of, getting rid of it which would be right in her character. It makes no sense for her to go through any of what she had done at that point if the baby was already gone.
Jane hiding the baby makes perfect sense period though.
What doesn't make sense to me is how, at the very end of the fight, when Ken… moreny is about to stick that knife through Jane's chest, Jane doesn't say AJ is alive. She's a survivor; you'd think if Kenny was about to kill her, just to save her own skin at least, she'd say, "Wait! AJ's alive, just in the car!"
...But what if AJ really wasn't alive? What if Jane couldn't bring herself to say AJ was alive, because, it wasn't true? What if she really was trying to get Kenny to wake up to reality, and she knew that, prior to her AJ-hiding plan, at any time, Kenny might just realize that AJ was indeed dead, and then what would happen?
I didn't forget about that scene and Clem's time with Christa but it still makes no sense that she would be more familiar with a baby that was never birthed than the man who was with her for 3+ months and bonded with her. I'm not saying Clem had 0 affection for Christa's baby but not nearly enough to bring her into a state where she's hallucinating. Clem line is merely her just not wanting another dead infant, not really much more to it.
I realize that she has just been shot right before the dream/memory occurs but because its the RV and not just Lee in there too, I can't believe it's anything besides a dream/memory. I suppose you can think of it as Clem entering the afterlife but I can't, she wasn't fatally shot and obviously help got to her fast so she didn't lose too much blood, enough to have her pass out added onto her shock of course, but not enough to threaten her life.
There's all the evidence against it though. Clem is with people all the time, if she were cracked then it would be showing signs to them in some way but no one treats Clem any different, hell she's the one doing 90% of things because she's the most competent apparently. If she were unhinged, one way or another it would show through either in internally or externally but we never see that. You say that because we're playing as Clem, we don't see her crazy because we are her, assuming that it was internal then, we would still see it in some form, be that when she's by herself or examining something, One way or another her fractured mental state would show itself if she were, but since we see nothing and no one around her notices anything either, there's nothing even remotely suggesting she's mental.
Losing consciousness once does not confirm anything and we can't even account for how long she was out since the amount of time a person is unconscious matters significantly to the likelihood of brain damage. One instance does not confirm she was hallucinating, and if we're going to count her nearly drowning (which felt too short to cause any long-term damage), I'll again say how unlikely it is that Jane would go through all the trouble she did with a zombified infant if Clem really was hallucinating and she was trying to 'wake her up'.
I won't and never will defend TellTale's bad writing, but this isn't about their writing, this is about gameplay elements. No one wants to deal with all the actual problems a real baby would incur and if you think you do, then I implore you to get one of those baby dolls they use in high-school classes and spend a week with that and see if you're not sick of it by day 3. Again, this is a video game meant to be fun, having all those chores to do with the baby and the frequency of how many times you'd need to do them would make the game terrible. Or if you want a better idea of how drool it'd be, play that scene with the baby in Heavy Rain and tell me how quickly it gets boring. Yes, TellTale took out plenty of 'realistic' elements with the baby but in the end it's for the best for both the game and the player.
The OP's idea doesn't explain a thing or any plot holes, in fact, it makes more! A theory is great if it has something to actually back it up, but all I've heard from supporters of this theory are what-ifs and maybes. I'd love to be able to jump on-board but this theory holds no water at all.
While she has gone through several traumatic events, don't you think it would be more likely that she would be seeing/hearing things that sh… moree's familiar with, like Lee? Why would she be hallucinating over some baby that she barely knows and hasn't grown strong feelings for?
Well don't forget Lee was only with Clementine for a little over 3 months, while Clem was with Christa for 16 months. A once-pregnant Christa. Who once had a baby. Did you forget about this little scene?
You ask why Clem wouldn't be seeing/hearing things she's more familiar with, but she could've been more familiar with Christa's baby than she was with Lee, given the timeskip. You ask why would she be hallucinating over a baby she barely knows and hasn't grown feelings for? Well what if Clem was projecting Christa's baby onto AJ? Clem probably had some affection for Christa's baby at least, and could've imagined AJ being alive as a way to cope with having lo… [view original content]
it still makes no sense that she would be more familiar with a baby that was never birthed
How do you know how much time Clem spent with Christa's baby? How do you know Christa's baby was never even born? You're just assuming things.
I'm not saying Clem had 0 affection for Christa's baby but not nearly enough to bring her into a state where she's hallucinating. Clem line is merely her just not wanting another dead infant, not really much more to it.
I realize that she has just been shot right before the dream/memory occurs but because its the RV and not just Lee in there too, I can't believe it's anything besides a dream/memory. I suppose you can think of it as Clem entering the afterlife but I can't, she wasn't fatally shot and obviously help got to her fast so she didn't lose too much blood, enough to have her pass out added onto her shock of course, but not enough to threaten her life.
Well these are all assumptions again.
If she were unhinged, one way or another it would show through either in internally or externally but we never see that.
Well it does show! Lol. It shows in all the plotholes of how AJ doesn't act like a real baby, but you keep dismissing that.
No one wants to deal with all the actual problems a real baby would incur and if you think you do, then I implore you to get one of those baby dolls they use in high-school classes and spend a week with that and see if you're not sick of it by day 3.
Oh hon don't be ridiculous. I've helped take care of my 2-year-old nephew since he was a newborn, and believe me, I know how crazy it can get taking care of a baby.
The OP's idea doesn't explain a thing or any plot holes, in fact, it makes more! A theory is great if it has something to actually back it up, but all I've heard from supporters of this theory are what-ifs and maybes. I'd love to be able to jump on-board but this theory holds no water at all.
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm arguing. As I said earlier in this thread, I doubt the OP's idea is actually true and I doubt that TT would follow through with it in season 3 (if Clem is even in season 3), even though I like the OP's idea. However, you can't necessarily disprove the OP, just like you can't necessarily prove it either.
I didn't forget about that scene and Clem's time with Christa but it still makes no sense that she would be more familiar with a baby that w… moreas never birthed than the man who was with her for 3+ months and bonded with her. I'm not saying Clem had 0 affection for Christa's baby but not nearly enough to bring her into a state where she's hallucinating. Clem line is merely her just not wanting another dead infant, not really much more to it.
I realize that she has just been shot right before the dream/memory occurs but because its the RV and not just Lee in there too, I can't believe it's anything besides a dream/memory. I suppose you can think of it as Clem entering the afterlife but I can't, she wasn't fatally shot and obviously help got to her fast so she didn't lose too much blood, enough to have her pass out added onto her shock of course, but not enough to threaten her life.
There's all the evidence against it though. Clem is with peo… [view original content]
I doubt Kenny would have stopped there, he more than likely would have assumed it was her trying to save her skin and just kept going through with it. At that point, Kenny has no reason to believe her and they've both already drawn blood on the other so Kenny has his anger and adrenaline pumping through his veins. It wouldn't have mattered at all if she told him the truth, Kenny made up his mind the moment he stormed back into that room.
I'm not talking about what Kenny would have thought. I'm saying it doesn't make sense for Jane's character--the true "survivor" character whose primary concern was to live--to not say anything when she easily could have, to keep herself alive. E.g. if she had said "AJ's alive!" Clem could have been quicker to help her and, depending on your Clem, more likely to shoot Kenny.
And again, why would Jane carry a zombified infant with her through the blizzard and and go through the effort to hide it instead of, getting rid of it which would be right in her character. It makes no sense for her to go through any of what she had done at that point if the baby was already gone.
Well, if Clem had seen Jane murdering AJ, then that's all Clem would have seen--Jane as a baby killer. Once the zombie AJ was "dead," there would've been no way Jane could've proven that she had actually killed the zombie AJ, and Clem would've likely walked out on Jane because she'd see Jane as a murderer of a still-alive-baby, and not a killer of walker-babies instead. But as Jane kept AJ "safe" in the car, Clem would see that AJ was still "alive" and might still go with Jane, given everything that'd happened.
She doesn't say anything about it to again show Clem how far Kenny is willing to go and I doubt Kenny would have stopped there, he more than… more likely would have assumed it was her trying to save her skin and just kept going through with it. At that point, Kenny has no reason to believe her and they've both already drawn blood on the other so Kenny has his anger and adrenaline pumping through his veins. It wouldn't have mattered at all if she told him the truth, Kenny made up his mind the moment he stormed back into that room.
And again, why would Jane carry a zombified infant with her through the blizzard and and go through the effort to hide it instead of, getting rid of it which would be right in her character. It makes no sense for her to go through any of what she had done at that point if the baby was already gone.
It doesn't matter though had she said it or not, while she is a survivor, this was her test against Kenny originally. And like I said, it wouldn't have mattered had she said anything as Kenny would have killed her anyway because of his anger.
I never said Jane had to murder the zombified kid, especially in front of Clem. How does it not make sense that she would abandon it in the blizzard when they all got separated? She's the last one to make it there and obviously knew they were there so she had plenty of time/opportunity to get rid of it. Jane could come up with any story she cared for in that instance.
My point here is simply that this theory is flawed and bad, in this particular aspect because Jane is the one with AJ several times, she is not the type of person to carry a zombified anything and she had opportunities galore to get rid of it if it was. You said yourself that she is a survivor, why is a person like that going to burden themselves by caring/protecting at all for a zombie? There is no way you, or anyone else can spin this crazy theory to make it even close to making sense.
I doubt Kenny would have stopped there, he more than likely would have assumed it was her trying to save her skin and just kept going throug… moreh with it. At that point, Kenny has no reason to believe her and they've both already drawn blood on the other so Kenny has his anger and adrenaline pumping through his veins. It wouldn't have mattered at all if she told him the truth, Kenny made up his mind the moment he stormed back into that room.
I'm not talking about what Kenny would have thought. I'm saying it doesn't make sense for Jane's character--the true "survivor" character whose primary concern was to live--to not say anything when she easily could have, to keep herself alive. E.g. if she had said "AJ's alive!" Clem could have been quicker to help her and, depending on your Clem, more likely to shoot Kenny.
And again, why would Jane carry a zombified infant with her through the blizzard and and go through the effort to hide it i… [view original content]
it still makes no sense that she would be more familiar with a baby that was never birthed
How do you know how much time Clem spent … morewith Christa's baby? How do you know Christa's baby was never even born? You're just assuming things.
I'm not saying Clem had 0 affection for Christa's baby but not nearly enough to bring her into a state where she's hallucinating. Clem line is merely her just not wanting another dead infant, not really much more to it.
I realize that she has just been shot right before the dream/memory occurs but because its the RV and not just Lee in there too, I can't believe it's anything besides a dream/memory. I suppose you can think of it as Clem entering the afterlife but I can't, she wasn't fatally shot and obviously help got to her fast so she didn't lose too much blood, enough to have her pass out added onto her shock of course, but not enough to threaten her life.
Well these are all assump… [view original content]
I just love how this forum keeps getting more and more rude. Never fails to disappoint. Absolutely wonderful.
You didn't disprove anything. And when you're ready to be more respectful, let me know.
Hey guys! Things haven't gotten too out of hand yet, but let's please try to keep things nice and civil. It's ok to disagree, but let's keep it constructive and civil! Thanks.
Comments
Who says you have to be an AJ- or baby-hater to like the "theory?" I certainly don't hate AJ. And I happen to like the idea. It's just a twist on the story, is all.
I never said you had to be an AJ hater.
Might be an interesting idea, but I'm 100% sure all your evidence is just shitty writing on Telltale's part. AJ is alive because plot armour. That's Season 2 for ya.
Wow, that would surprise me if that occurred in the story. I kinda like this theory, even though I like AJ. It'd be really dark.
There is something similar like this in a movie called Goya's Ghost. Nathan Portman's character is brutally tortured by the catholic church while pregnant. During the torture she slips in and out of consciousness and doesn't remember when she birth the baby. So she stuffs her shirt and believes that the lump is her baby. Also, objects that resemble infants she believes that it is her child, even other babies she believes that they are her's
Not exactly. In the Jane ending, Clem would hear it, and Jane would look at Clem after she did. In the Kenny ending, they both hear it, only further backing up the OP's theory.
Or maybe Jane actually hid the baby and had no reason to be surprised when she heard it cry. Also, i would think if the baby's' cry really was a hallucination then Clementine would not have been able to find its body right away... nor would Jane have had any reason to hide the baby in a safe place if it were already dead.
Okay, that's fair.
Actually, Sialark is probably the smartest person I've met on these forums, and far more polite too. So saying that don't have an elementary school education is kind of douchey, don't you think? Besides, I'm pretty sure what they're saying is correct. Considering this is the Meaning of theory
That kind of sounds like a theory can be made with no evidence at all and just a hunch, or a series of evidence. This guys theory is right in the middle. It has evidence, and while it's not evidence that's entirely easy to confirm, it's the closest thing he has to evidence.
um
what
Daww y u so sweet? ;.;
Lol well I'm a little impolite sometimes.
Tbh I did forget the exact definition of "theory" and had to look it up myself. But forgive me for not remembering the absolute exact definition of a term I had memorized years and years ago and don't use on any daily basis these days. (Tho fyi DoubleJump, I was a bamf in school and tutored fellow students in science as well as other subjects myself.)
Wasn't there that dream flashback sequence of Lee when Clementine got shot. That could always count for a hallucination. Jane hiding the baby would make more sense too, like she's trying to snap Clementine and Kenny out of it!
God I love this theory! Even if it isn't true, I love it! =D
No offense but I guess you didn't read the rest of my comment. I mentioned the dream/memory she has after she gets shot but that's not a hallucination, it's a dream, otherwise everyone on the planet is hallucinating every night.
Jane hiding the baby makes perfect sense period though. The original intent was to reveal Kenny's inner demon and just how far he'd be willing to go. And that doesn't make sense since after Clem's dream, everyone is in the car and who is holding the baby... Jane. It's not in her character at all to do something like carrying around a zombified infant, she would have gotten rid of it.
And again, Clem hallucinating just doesn't make sense given the fact that there is no evidence that she would be. It would be an interesting theory if it had anything to back it up.
Actually Kenny could also cause the shootout if Clementine shouted instead of shooting.
Mmmk. Wasn't calling him an idiot or anything like that. I'm just saying I know what a theory is and others as well since we should all have been to school. This argument is getting rediculous and your making it worse, so please just stop.
Uh huh. Sure, because "Or you can just have at least an elementary school education." totally is not a way to let someone know that you think they're stupid.
First of all, I agree, this argument is getting pretty dumb. Second of all, I'm making it worse? I'm just stating a fact pal, you're the one getting all upset. Third, "Rediculous"? I think you mean, Ridiculous.
I'm just saying! You've brought up some absolutely amazing points in some discussions.
Well, aren't we all?
Too bad Telltale probably doesn't have the stones to go through with this. The whole thing about the baby not eating is probably just a plothole and S3 Clem won't be a delusional mess. I'll give you props, though. Your theory has a couple of questionable arguments thrown in there but overall I'd definitely pay money for a twist like that.
TTG... Please don't get any ideas from this.
This is terrible.
I have a theory too!
The whole time Lee has been alive, he and Clementine switched bodies!
And you're probably wondering who is the S3 protagonist, right? I'm confirming this right here at TTGCCC(Telltale Games Community Comic-Con) that Johnny from the Room will be the protagonist! Voiced by Tommy Wiseau, he will be slaying the dead and living to help save Lee, a man trapped in a 11 year old's body.
OK wow you need to chill.
wat
Hey guys! Things haven't gotten too out of hand yet, but let's please try to keep things nice and civil. It's ok to disagree, but let's keep it constructive and civil! Thanks.
Except for the fact that Jaime had fallen apart when she was confronted with the real world, to the point that she didn't want to get up and move anymore, or even live anymore. Perhaps Jane learned from that time, and decided to humor Clem. Being too blunt might just have Clem break down like Jaime did, to dire consequences.
Well don't forget Lee was only with Clementine for a little over 3 months, while Clem was with Christa for 16 months. A once-pregnant Christa. Who once had a baby. Did you forget about this little scene?
You ask why Clem wouldn't be seeing/hearing things she's more familiar with, but she could've been more familiar with Christa's baby than she was with Lee, given the timeskip. You ask why would she be hallucinating over a baby she barely knows and hasn't grown feelings for? Well what if Clem was projecting Christa's baby onto AJ? Clem probably had some affection for Christa's baby at least, and could've imagined AJ being alive as a way to cope with having lost Christa's baby, and going into a "No, not again...not again..." state.
I wouldn't say that that was absolutely 100% a dream/memory with no other possibility of what it could've been. Remember Clem had just been shot, and had just lost a lot of blood. (Loss of blood leads to hypotension/low blood pressure, which can lead to brain hypoxia, which can lead to hallucinations.) You could interpret that little Lee scene as not a dream/memory, but a hallucination, or it could've been interpreted as Clem "meeting" Lee in the afterlife/in heaven/in limbo to speak with him and get advice from him, before returning back to consciousness.
There's no real evidence against it either. Given the fact that she's an eleven-year-old girl, I honestly was expecting her to crack some time in this season. Heck this could explain why Clem appeared so "emotionless" and "boring" to some people--why wasn't she reacting more to the situations around her, why wasn't she breaking down more or getting angrier or something? And the answer is: because, she had already cracked. We just didn't realize it, because we saw everything through Clem's eyes. Everything we saw was through Clem, so of course we're looking through filtered lenses, so to speak. We're seeing everything Clem sees, and not anything anyone else sees.
Well like we talked about, she did lose consciousness when she got shot. She also was close to losing consciousness, or just out-right drowning in that lake if she tried to save Luke (if you failed one of the QTEs in that scene, Clem could actually die underwater, signifying how oxygen-deprived she was.) And like I said before, brain hypoxia (aka loss of oxygen) can lead to hallucinations.
Frankly, none of that excuses the fact that it was still pretty shit writing. In a game that is literally all about survival, here's a baby--something that needs the most things to survive--food, diapers, care to keep him crying at any time--and...all of that's completely and utterly ignored. Again, the OP's idea explains a lot of these plot holes that the game just otherwise does not address.
What doesn't make sense to me is how, at the very end of the fight, when Kenny is about to stick that knife through Jane's chest, Jane doesn't say AJ is alive. She's a survivor; you'd think if Kenny was about to kill her, just to save her own skin at least, she'd say, "Wait! AJ's alive, just in the car!"
...But what if AJ really wasn't alive? What if Jane couldn't bring herself to say AJ was alive, because, it wasn't true? What if she really was trying to get Kenny to wake up to reality, and she knew that, prior to her AJ-hiding plan, at any time, Kenny might just realize that AJ was indeed dead, and then what would happen?
She doesn't say anything about it to again show Clem how far Kenny is willing to go and I doubt Kenny would have stopped there, he more than likely would have assumed it was her trying to save her skin and just kept going through with it. At that point, Kenny has no reason to believe her and they've both already drawn blood on the other so Kenny has his anger and adrenaline pumping through his veins. It wouldn't have mattered at all if she told him the truth, Kenny made up his mind the moment he stormed back into that room.
And again, why would Jane carry a zombified infant with her through the blizzard and and go through the effort to hide it instead of, getting rid of it which would be right in her character. It makes no sense for her to go through any of what she had done at that point if the baby was already gone.
I didn't forget about that scene and Clem's time with Christa but it still makes no sense that she would be more familiar with a baby that was never birthed than the man who was with her for 3+ months and bonded with her. I'm not saying Clem had 0 affection for Christa's baby but not nearly enough to bring her into a state where she's hallucinating. Clem line is merely her just not wanting another dead infant, not really much more to it.
I realize that she has just been shot right before the dream/memory occurs but because its the RV and not just Lee in there too, I can't believe it's anything besides a dream/memory. I suppose you can think of it as Clem entering the afterlife but I can't, she wasn't fatally shot and obviously help got to her fast so she didn't lose too much blood, enough to have her pass out added onto her shock of course, but not enough to threaten her life.
There's all the evidence against it though. Clem is with people all the time, if she were cracked then it would be showing signs to them in some way but no one treats Clem any different, hell she's the one doing 90% of things because she's the most competent apparently. If she were unhinged, one way or another it would show through either in internally or externally but we never see that. You say that because we're playing as Clem, we don't see her crazy because we are her, assuming that it was internal then, we would still see it in some form, be that when she's by herself or examining something, One way or another her fractured mental state would show itself if she were, but since we see nothing and no one around her notices anything either, there's nothing even remotely suggesting she's mental.
Losing consciousness once does not confirm anything and we can't even account for how long she was out since the amount of time a person is unconscious matters significantly to the likelihood of brain damage. One instance does not confirm she was hallucinating, and if we're going to count her nearly drowning (which felt too short to cause any long-term damage), I'll again say how unlikely it is that Jane would go through all the trouble she did with a zombified infant if Clem really was hallucinating and she was trying to 'wake her up'.
I won't and never will defend TellTale's bad writing, but this isn't about their writing, this is about gameplay elements. No one wants to deal with all the actual problems a real baby would incur and if you think you do, then I implore you to get one of those baby dolls they use in high-school classes and spend a week with that and see if you're not sick of it by day 3. Again, this is a video game meant to be fun, having all those chores to do with the baby and the frequency of how many times you'd need to do them would make the game terrible. Or if you want a better idea of how drool it'd be, play that scene with the baby in Heavy Rain and tell me how quickly it gets boring. Yes, TellTale took out plenty of 'realistic' elements with the baby but in the end it's for the best for both the game and the player.
The OP's idea doesn't explain a thing or any plot holes, in fact, it makes more! A theory is great if it has something to actually back it up, but all I've heard from supporters of this theory are what-ifs and maybes. I'd love to be able to jump on-board but this theory holds no water at all.
How do you know how much time Clem spent with Christa's baby? How do you know Christa's baby was never even born? You're just assuming things.
Well these are all assumptions again.
Well it does show! Lol. It shows in all the plotholes of how AJ doesn't act like a real baby, but you keep dismissing that.
Oh hon don't be ridiculous. I've helped take care of my 2-year-old nephew since he was a newborn, and believe me, I know how crazy it can get taking care of a baby.
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm arguing. As I said earlier in this thread, I doubt the OP's idea is actually true and I doubt that TT would follow through with it in season 3 (if Clem is even in season 3), even though I like the OP's idea. However, you can't necessarily disprove the OP, just like you can't necessarily prove it either.
I'm not talking about what Kenny would have thought. I'm saying it doesn't make sense for Jane's character--the true "survivor" character whose primary concern was to live--to not say anything when she easily could have, to keep herself alive. E.g. if she had said "AJ's alive!" Clem could have been quicker to help her and, depending on your Clem, more likely to shoot Kenny.
Well, if Clem had seen Jane murdering AJ, then that's all Clem would have seen--Jane as a baby killer. Once the zombie AJ was "dead," there would've been no way Jane could've proven that she had actually killed the zombie AJ, and Clem would've likely walked out on Jane because she'd see Jane as a murderer of a still-alive-baby, and not a killer of walker-babies instead. But as Jane kept AJ "safe" in the car, Clem would see that AJ was still "alive" and might still go with Jane, given everything that'd happened.
It doesn't matter though had she said it or not, while she is a survivor, this was her test against Kenny originally. And like I said, it wouldn't have mattered had she said anything as Kenny would have killed her anyway because of his anger.
I never said Jane had to murder the zombified kid, especially in front of Clem. How does it not make sense that she would abandon it in the blizzard when they all got separated? She's the last one to make it there and obviously knew they were there so she had plenty of time/opportunity to get rid of it. Jane could come up with any story she cared for in that instance.
My point here is simply that this theory is flawed and bad, in this particular aspect because Jane is the one with AJ several times, she is not the type of person to carry a zombified anything and she had opportunities galore to get rid of it if it was. You said yourself that she is a survivor, why is a person like that going to burden themselves by caring/protecting at all for a zombie? There is no way you, or anyone else can spin this crazy theory to make it even close to making sense.
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I just love how this forum keeps getting more and more rude. Never fails to disappoint. Absolutely wonderful.
You didn't disprove anything. And when you're ready to be more respectful, let me know.
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No offense but this theory is so ridiculous, idiotic and far fetched that I lost some brain cells just reading it...
Yes sir. I was indeed remaining calm, though I will say I was the one in the wrong with how immature I was acting, so I apologize.
Okay, you're right. I apologize for having this get out of hand, though I was remaining calm, I was being rude. Sorry.