Well, that actually explains it. It wasn't under German law, so the current trial isn't affected by ne bis in idem, at least I think that's how it works
Simply belonging to the SS does not make you evil. Yes, the organisation was despicable and reprehensible, but to automatically assume that everyone belonging to them is evil and deserving of death is narrow-minded.
Are you freakin serious? SS was the very cream of the Hitlers forces only those who truly belived in what he was doing were invited. Those people were monsters just like this guy who worked in concentration camp and before you start about his following orders he could always desert and ran to the Allies. Not to mention that he was a paramedic so he exactly knew what was going on there so please spare me the BS
Not everything is black and white. Simply belonging to the SS does not make you evil. Yes, the organisation was despicable and reprehensible… more, but to automatically assume that everyone belonging to them is evil and deserving of death is narrow-minded.
And before anyone accuses me for being a Nazi lover or being ignorant to their crimes, I do not in any way condone the acts of the Nazis, particularly that of the SS, and I am well and truely aware of their crimes. But, we are not talking about the SS as a group. We are talking about one man, an individual who did not directly participate in the killings (if you could call simply being at a place participating) and killed nary a soul in the entire war.
Just because some people in a group are bad does not mean that everyone in the group is bad. You can't look at everyone's reasons for joinin… moreg as completely black and white. The Waffen SS was a military order held in high regard and known for being elite. Some people that joined probably did so because they wanted to serve, but with more distinction. Others, like Lauri Törni joined for the high quality training, and to continue the fight against the Soviet Union. And some, of course, joined because they wanted to do things on the darker side. Everyone had their reasons. I know it's very easy for you, 70 years later, to judge the actions of every man involved, but it does make you look shortsighted if nothing else.
What a load of crap. So maybe let a person who actually spoke with victims of SS judge?
Please go into further depth as to the ways in which you suffered at their hands, I'm all ears.
High quality training? Hahaha please, SS was something akin to a cult rather than army so only those that would do everything that the Furher said could join.
And they happened to also be a group dedicated to fighting the Soviets, a group that was offered extensive training to be able to do so. I have already provided the example of Lauri Törni joining for this reason, and I've also explicitly stated twice now that this was just one reason and not the reason people joined, so please stop it because it made you look like someone that doesn't read and is spewing the same debunked arguments at me as the last person.
When there are doubts about the Wehrmacht soldiers SS is undefendable so please stop because it made you look like a Nazi sympathizer
Trying to appeal to the emotions of other readers in order to "debunk" what I've said is not a very good way to get your point across. I actually don't look like a Nazi sympathizer at all, I look like someone that said something and then backed it up with historical evidence. Or do you think that Lauri Törni is someone that I just made up? Even though he's regarded as an American hero for his time spent in the US military after WWII? Or, if you do believe in him, do you think we should posthumously revoke his achievements and wipe him from history as just another scumbag?
If he'd tried to desert and failed, he'd have been shot or faced the gas chambers. Do you actually know what his chances would have been of escaping and getting to the Allies?
Simply belonging to the SS does not make you evil. Yes, the organisation was despicable and reprehensible, but to automatically assume that … moreeveryone belonging to them is evil and deserving of death is narrow-minded.
Are you freakin serious? SS was the very cream of the Hitlers forces only those who truly belived in what he was doing were invited. Those people were monsters just like this guy who worked in concentration camp and before you start about his following orders he could always desert and ran to the Allies. Not to mention that he was a paramedic so he exactly knew what was going on there so please spare me the BS
SS was the very cream of Hitkers forces. Only those who truely believed in what he was doing was invited
Yes, that is true in a general sense. He almost certianly did believe in what Germans where doing, just as an unfathomable amount of other Germans did within and outside of the SS. Then again, he did have knowledge where most others did not. Plus, he was in the Hitler Youth, so he had this seed planted in him.
Those people where monsters.
Yes, for the most part, yes.
just like this guy who worked in concentration camp.
You see, here is where I have trouble with his trial. As much as he most likely was a believer in Hitler's cult of personality and that of the mission of the SS, he had no direct involvement.
And before you start about his following orders he could always desert and ran to the allies.
He could not, at the camp, anyway. He was well and truly behind the lines during his time there, so there is the fact that he had nowhere he could go if he wanted to desert. Furthermore, he later was transferred to the west, where he fell into British hands.
Not to mention that he was paramedic so he knew exactly what was going on there
Most stationed at the camp knew what was happening. Furthermore, there is also his aforementioned lack of a direct role in the killings (No source I have found states him as having played a direct role in any way, despite his role as a paramedic). I do have a problem with his former beliefs, that I shall not deny. But he is being tried for simply being there and having knowledge; that is my problem.
so please spare me the BS.
No bullshit, I assure you. If you have a source proving any of my observations wrong, please refer to it.
Simply belonging to the SS does not make you evil. Yes, the organisation was despicable and reprehensible, but to automatically assume that … moreeveryone belonging to them is evil and deserving of death is narrow-minded.
Are you freakin serious? SS was the very cream of the Hitlers forces only those who truly belived in what he was doing were invited. Those people were monsters just like this guy who worked in concentration camp and before you start about his following orders he could always desert and ran to the Allies. Not to mention that he was a paramedic so he exactly knew what was going on there so please spare me the BS
Rather than sources or evidence I suspect you'll just be called a Nazi sympathizer, and somehow that will be meant to invalidate everything you've said.
People just keep on acting as if everything is black and white and/or jump to conclusions. There is no doubt in my mind that the NDSAP and the SS where evil organisations. Yet, on and individual level, things can and do vary greatly. You have the most evil of the evil with the likes of Hitler and Mengele, and on the other end, you have people like Lauri Törni (as you had previously mentioned).
Rather than sources or evidence I suspect you'll just be called a Nazi sympathizer, and somehow that will be meant to invalidate everything you've said.
"You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
I don't like the movie this came from, but I can't help but like this quote, especially in this situation. People on here are so violently angry at something that happened 70 years ago that they want to practically emulate the events of the people that they are mad at. This has been an enjoyable thread to observe for that reason. Keep it up guys, the dehumanization and calls for death are not even remotely ironic. Not at all.
“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”
"What is better; to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?"
People just keep on acting as if everything is black and white and/or jump to conclusions. There is no doubt in my mind that the NDSAP and t… morehe SS where evil organisations. Yet, on and individual level, things can and do vary greatly. You have the most evil of the evil with the likes of Hitler and Mengele, and on the other end, you have people like Lauri Törni (as you had previously mentioned).
Lauri Törni was a part of the SS, and afterwards joined the Green Berets and fought in Vietnam. He was awarded a Distinguished Flying Cross,… more a Bronze Star, a Legion of Merit, and a Purple Heart. Here's a brief description of each from Wiki.
Distinguished Flying Cross: The Distinguished Flying Cross is a military decoration awarded to any officer or enlisted member of the United States Armed Forces who distinguishes himself or herself in support of operations by "heroism or extraordinary achievement while participating in an aerial flight, subsequent to November 11, 1918."
Bronze Star Medal: The Bronze Star Medal, unofficially the Bronze Star, is a United States decoration awarded to members of the United States Armed Forces for either heroic achievement, heroic service, meritorious achievement, or meritorious service in a combat zone.
Legion of Merit: The Legion of Merit (LOM) is a military award of the United States Armed Forces tha… [view original content]
About the same level of my people who hid and protected Jewish or people who willingly went to concetration camps to see what was going and then get to Allies to tell them the truth.
If he'd tried to desert and failed, he'd have been shot or faced the gas chambers. Do you actually know what his chances would have been of escaping and getting to the Allies?
He could not, at the camp, anyway. He was well and truly behind the lines during his time there, so there is the fact that he had nowhere he could go if he wanted to desert. Furthermore, he later was transferred to the west, where he fell into British hands.
Of course he could, few prisoners ran from the camps and got to the allies but he probably didn't want.
Most stationed at the camp knew what was happening. Furthermore, there is also his aforementioned lack of a direct role in the killings (No source I have found states him as having played a direct role in any way, despite his role as a paramedic). I do have a problem with his former beliefs, that I shall not deny. But he is being tried for simply being there and having knowledge; that is my problem.
Paramedic do you have any idea what those people were responsible for? Experimenting on prisoners among others, or at the least assisiting. He was at Auschwitz so most likely he was handling the scalpel to Doctor Mengele
also a link where HE claim that he took no part in it.
So easy to say when you don't suffer from the consequences till this day, say did you country ever got razed to the ground with sixth of the population killed hm?
Keep it up guys, the dehumanization and calls for death are not even remotely ironic. Not at all.
you can't dehumanize something that is not human to begin with.
"You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
I don't like the movie this came from, but I can't he… morelp but like this quote, especially in this situation. People on here are so violently angry at something that happened 70 years ago that they want to practically emulate the events of the people that they are mad at. This has been an enjoyable thread to observe for that reason. Keep it up guys, the dehumanization and calls for death are not even remotely ironic. Not at all.
“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”
"What is better; to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?"
About the same level of my people who hid and protected Jewish or people who willingly went to concetration camps to see what was going and then get to Allies to tell them the truth.
Please go into further depth as to the ways in which you suffered at their hands, I'm all ears.
read my sentence once again then think about what you wrote.
And they happened to also be a group dedicated to fighting the Soviets, a group that was offered extensive training to be able to do so. I have already provided the example of Lauri Törni joining for this reason, and I've also explicitly stated twice now that this was just one reason and not the reason people joined, so please stop it because it made you look like someone that doesn't read and is spewing the same debunked arguments at me as the last person.
Again I call BS on that. SS was a personal army of Hitler way before he even considered fighting with Soviets, that was just a side quest for them. They were a police force to keep everyone in check. Read a bit of history before uttering things like that. Also Lauri Törn joined for the very reason you mentioned so he wasn't true SS memeber, he just used the occasion to get the best equipment. But still that doesn't change the fact that he joined most heinous organization of those times.
Trying to appeal to the emotions of other readers in order to "debunk" what I've said is not a very good way to get your point across. I actually don't look like a Nazi sympathizer at all, I look like someone that said something and then backed it up with historical evidence. Or do you think that Lauri Törni is someone that I just made up? Even though he's regarded as an American hero for his time spent in the US military after WWII? Or, if you do believe in him, do you think we should posthumously revoke his achievements and wipe him from history as just another scumbag?
No it's easy to find one of two exceptions from the rule and then say that SS wasn't all evil. Also does the deeds he did for your people wash away the things he did to others? For you he is a hero, for me he is a scumbag like all who wore those uniforms.
What a load of crap. So maybe let a person who actually spoke with victims of SS judge?
Please go into further depth as to the ways … morein which you suffered at their hands, I'm all ears.
High quality training? Hahaha please, SS was something akin to a cult rather than army so only those that would do everything that the Furher said could join.
And they happened to also be a group dedicated to fighting the Soviets, a group that was offered extensive training to be able to do so. I have already provided the example of Lauri Törni joining for this reason, and I've also explicitly stated twice now that this was just one reason and not the reason people joined, so please stop it because it made you look like someone that doesn't read and is spewing the same debunked arguments at me as the last person.
When there are doubts about the Wehrmacht soldiers SS is undefendable so please stop because it made you look like a Nazi s… [view original content]
He could not, at the camp, anyway. He was well and truly behind the lines during his time there, so there is the fact that he had nowhere he… more could go if he wanted to desert. Furthermore, he later was transferred to the west, where he fell into British hands.
Of course he could, few prisoners ran from the camps and got to the allies but he probably didn't want.
Most stationed at the camp knew what was happening. Furthermore, there is also his aforementioned lack of a direct role in the killings (No source I have found states him as having played a direct role in any way, despite his role as a paramedic). I do have a problem with his former beliefs, that I shall not deny. But he is being tried for simply being there and having knowledge; that is my problem.
Paramedic do you have any idea what those people were responsible for? Experimenting on prisoners among others, or at the least assisiting. He was at Auschwitz so most … [view original content]
So easy to say when you don't suffer from the consequences till this day, say did you country ever got razed to the ground with sixth of the population killed hm?
Oh I didn't know you suffered from the actions of this one man. How in the hell is this one man responsible for the past razing and killings of people in your country?
you can't dehumanize something that is not human to begin with.
So easy to say when you don't suffer from the consequences till this day, say did you country ever got razed to the ground with sixth of the… more population killed hm?
Keep it up guys, the dehumanization and calls for death are not even remotely ironic. Not at all.
you can't dehumanize something that is not human to begin with.
Oh I didn't know you suffered from the actions of this one man. How in the hell is this one man responsible for the past razing and killings of people in your country?
Hitler was a one man too. It's not about him being one man but what he represents. I never said I personaly did. But suffice so say somethings that are happening today are the direct results of what this man was a part of.
He should face punishment for what he did.
Ironic.
History is one big irony. He at one point throught of other people as sub-human and now look at that people think of him as sub-human.
So easy to say when you don't suffer from the consequences till this day, say did you country ever got razed to the ground with sixth of the… more population killed hm?
Oh I didn't know you suffered from the actions of this one man. How in the hell is this one man responsible for the past razing and killings of people in your country?
you can't dehumanize something that is not human to begin with.
Ironic.
Since we're talking past tense, yes, my ancestors did suffer death and destruction. As did everybody who exists ancestors. My Swedish ancestors suffered the brutal Christianization of Scandinavia, and my German ancestors more recently suffered the destruction and rape of their country at the hands of the Soviets, not that they didn't start the war, but they still suffered as a result. Those are just two examples. Maybe a sixth of their populations weren't killed, but they still suffered. War and death has plagued all people, and despite the atrocities committed against yours, that doesn't somehow excuse inhumanity on your behalf.
If you ever want to move on in life from events that happened most likely not within the scope of your own lifetime, you need to learn that doing unto others as they have done to you is not a means of creating a better and more peaceful world. The Nazi party in Germany was destroyed, the people involved stood trial. The SS no longer exists. They hold no practical influence in any nation. It's over. Picking on a 95 year old man with a mental illness to make yourself feel better is simply inhumane. Particularly given that he was involved in the camp for only one month, there are no records of him killing anyone, and he already served a sentence for his involvement.
I'd also like to ask you what consequences you suffer from now, 70 years later? I haven't heard much about any camps or gas chambers recently. As far as I can tell Jewish people are treated exactly the same as everyone else at this point in history, at least in the West.
you can't dehumanize something that is not human to begin with.
Except they were human, just as the old man is now. There's nothing else to even say on this matter.
So easy to say when you don't suffer from the consequences till this day, say did you country ever got razed to the ground with sixth of the… more population killed hm?
Keep it up guys, the dehumanization and calls for death are not even remotely ironic. Not at all.
you can't dehumanize something that is not human to begin with.
Your knees must be sore...From jumping to conclusions! Seriously, could you make a bigger leap of faith.
Have you read the article?
for his part in the murders of 3,681 people.
According to the indictment, Zafke is accused of knowing that he worked in an extermination camp, knew that it was an extermination camp and that he was 'supportive of the running of this extermination camp.'
For fucks sake dude, you're now saying we should kill everyone related to him? They're not responsible even if he was!
Yet he's the evil one.
Ok maybe I used wrong word. I meant other Nazi still alive so let's say coworkers.
He was at Auschwitz so most likely he was handling the scalpel to Doctor Mengele also a link where HE claim that he took no part in it.
… more
Your knees must be sore...From jumping to conclusions! Seriously, could you make a bigger leap of faith.
So yeah they should hang him and all his kin that still is alive.
For fucks sake dude, you're now saying we should kill everyone related to him? They're not responsible even if he was!
Yet he's the evil one.
Hitler was a one man too. It's not about him being one man but what he represents. I never said I personaly did. But suffice so say somethings that are happening today are the direct results of what this man was a part of.
What does this paramedic represent exactly? He wasn't a conspirator at the head of the Nazi Empire, he was one man in one camp. What is happening right now which is directly related to this paramedic?
History is one big irony. He at one point throught of other people as sub-human and now look at that people think of him as sub-human.
I'm saying it's ironic that you're calling him sub human and want to punish him for deaths he wasn't doing yet says we should kill him and his entire family.
Oh I didn't know you suffered from the actions of this one man. How in the hell is this one man responsible for the past razing and killings… more of people in your country?
Hitler was a one man too. It's not about him being one man but what he represents. I never said I personaly did. But suffice so say somethings that are happening today are the direct results of what this man was a part of.
He should face punishment for what he did.
Ironic.
History is one big irony. He at one point throught of other people as sub-human and now look at that people think of him as sub-human.
Zafke is accused of knowing that he worked in an extermination camp, knew that it was an extermination camp and that he was 'supportive of the running of this extermination camp.'
We have went over this, what could he have done differently which wouldn't result in his death?
Ok maybe I used wrong word. I meant other Nazi still alive so let's say coworkers.
Your knees must be sore...From jumping to conclusions! Seriously, could you make a bigger leap of faith.
Have you read the article?
… more
for his part in the murders of 3,681 people.
According to the indictment, Zafke is accused of knowing that he worked in an extermination camp, knew that it was an extermination camp and that he was 'supportive of the running of this extermination camp.'
For fucks sake dude, you're now saying we should kill everyone related to him? They're not responsible even if he was!
Yet he's the evil one.
Ok maybe I used wrong word. I meant other Nazi still alive so let's say coworkers.
What does this paramedic represent exactly? He wasn't a conspirator at the head of the Nazi Empire, he was one man in one camp. What is happening right now which is directly related to this paramedic?
You still bring this to personal level I wrote that it's not him as a person but what he represented.
I'm saying it's ironic that you're calling him sub human and want to punish him for deaths he wasn't doing yet says we should kill him and his entire family.
Already fixed that. Didn't mean his family but his coworkers. Also it wasn't proven that he hadn't had the hand in deaths.
Hitler was a one man too. It's not about him being one man but what he represents. I never said I personaly did. But suffice so say somethin… moregs that are happening today are the direct results of what this man was a part of.
What does this paramedic represent exactly? He wasn't a conspirator at the head of the Nazi Empire, he was one man in one camp. What is happening right now which is directly related to this paramedic?
History is one big irony. He at one point throught of other people as sub-human and now look at that people think of him as sub-human.
I'm saying it's ironic that you're calling him sub human and want to punish him for deaths he wasn't doing yet says we should kill him and his entire family.
What does this paramedic represent exactly? He wasn't a conspirator at the head of the Nazi Empire, he was one man in one camp. What is happ… moreening right now which is directly related to this paramedic?
You still bring this to personal level I wrote that it's not him as a person but what he represented.
I'm saying it's ironic that you're calling him sub human and want to punish him for deaths he wasn't doing yet says we should kill him and his entire family.
Already fixed that. Didn't mean his family but his coworkers. Also it wasn't proven that he hadn't had the hand in deaths.
Zafke is accused of knowing that he worked in an extermination camp, knew that it was an extermination camp and that he was 'supportive of t… morehe running of this extermination camp.'
We have went over this, what could he have done differently which wouldn't result in his death?
Ok maybe I used wrong word. I meant other Nazi still alive so let's say coworkers.
Yes, kin doesn't mean coworkers.
We have went over this, what could he have done differently which wouldn't result in his death?
Maybe make a choice to remain human?… more But he was a coward and decied to just follow orders.
Yes, kin doesn't mean coworkers.
Yup my bad.
Again, what does this one person represent? I have to bring it to a personal level because any other level of blame for this man is ridiculous.
He represents the worst of human nature, he did all of that willingly. He was stationed and multiple camps, joined HItler's scouts. I bet if he tried hard enough he could be relocated to different post but he stayed till the very end so yeah not buying that.
So your idea is guilty till proven innocent? A lot of innocent people die because of that thinking.
Is an SS member innocent by definition? So yeah guilty till proven is only way for those people.
You still bring this to personal level I wrote that it's not him as a person but what he represented.
Again, what does this one pers… moreon represent? I have to bring it to a personal level because any other level of blame for this man is ridiculous.
Already fixed that. Didn't mean his family but his coworkers. Also it wasn't proven that he hadn't had the hand in deaths.
So your idea is guilty till proven innocent? A lot of innocent people die because of that thinking.
Again, what does this one person represent? I have to bring it to a personal level because any other level of blame for this man is ridiculo… moreus.
He represents the worst of human nature, he did all of that willingly. He was stationed and multiple camps, joined HItler's scouts. I bet if he tried hard enough he could be relocated to different post but he stayed till the very end so yeah not buying that.
So your idea is guilty till proven innocent? A lot of innocent people die because of that thinking.
Is an SS member innocent by definition? So yeah guilty till proven is only way for those people.
Again I call BS on that. SS was a personal army of Hitler way before he even considered fighting with Soviets, that was just a side quest for them. They were a police force to keep everyone in check. Read a bit of history before uttering things like that.
I would like for you to find for me where I stated that the things you just said aren't true. The very specific example I am speaking of is Lauri. Lauri did not join to keep the German people under Hitler's thumb. He joined to better his fight against the Soviets at a time when Germany and the SS were fighting the Soviets. He was a man that joined the SS, and his reason wasn't to kill Jews or to oppress the masses.
Also Lauri Törn joined for the very reason you mentioned so he wasn't true SS memeber, he just used the occasion to get the best equipment. But still that doesn't change the fact that he joined most heinous organization of those times.
Except he was a true member. He joined and received the training. He fought the Soviets with them. He received an Iron Cross. He joined the organization in order to fight against his enemy, despite the SS's reputation, and no records I've seen prove he did anything to anyone in any camps. The enemy of his enemy was his friend, as the saying goes. It was an opportunity and he took it. I'm sure he wasn't the only Finn to do so.
No it's easy to find one of two exceptions from the rule and then say that SS wasn't all evil. Also does the deeds he did for your people wash away the things he did to others? For you he is a hero, for me he is a scumbag like all who wore those uniforms.
Exceptions are exactly the point I'm trying to make. If there are exceptions, it means that on an individual level people had their own reasons. You can't say that every single person was "x," and then be able to come up with exceptions if the rule you are proposing is supposed to be absolute. And if the rule you are proposing isn't supposed to be absolute, then you're simply proving my point.
And what did he do to others that was any worse than what any other soldier in the war did? He received training and equipment in order to better support Finland's defense against the Soviets. I'm yet to see any records of him being involved in camps. He received training, and then he fought the Soviets, who happened to be invading his country. He fought his enemy, just as every soldier did. So yes, I would say that him simply having been a part of the SS, but only for the reason to fight the Soviets, does not constitute him as being evil, irregardless of his deeds in America.
Please go into further depth as to the ways in which you suffered at their hands, I'm all ears.
read my sentence once again then think ab… moreout what you wrote.
And they happened to also be a group dedicated to fighting the Soviets, a group that was offered extensive training to be able to do so. I have already provided the example of Lauri Törni joining for this reason, and I've also explicitly stated twice now that this was just one reason and not the reason people joined, so please stop it because it made you look like someone that doesn't read and is spewing the same debunked arguments at me as the last person.
Again I call BS on that. SS was a personal army of Hitler way before he even considered fighting with Soviets, that was just a side quest for them. They were a police force to keep everyone in check. Read a bit of history before uttering things like that. Also Lauri Törn joined for the very reason you mentioned so he w… [view original content]
my German ancestors more recently suffered the destruction and rape of their country at the hands of the Soviets,
Germany got what it deserved.
If you ever want to move on in life from events that happened most likely not within the scope of your own lifetime, you need to learn that doing unto others as they have done to you is not a means of creating a better and more peaceful world. The Nazi party in Germany was destroyed, the people involved stood trial. The SS no longer exists. They hold no practical influence in any nation. It's over. Picking on a 95 year old man with a mental illness to make yourself feel better is simply inhumane. Particularly given that he was involved in the camp for only one month, there are no records of him killing anyone, and he already served a sentence for his involvement.
I moved on trust me on that, I don't hate germans now but what I hate when people are trying to somehow clean Nazi by saying not all of them were evil or push the blame to the mysterius Nazi race while not saying out right that those were germans. Not to mention the infamous Polish concentration camps.
I'd also like to ask you what consequences you suffer from now, 70 years later? I haven't heard much about any camps or gas chambers recently. As far as I can tell Jewish people are treated exactly the same as everyone else at this point in history, at least in the West.
I'm not Jewish, I'm Polish and live in Poland. Because of Nazi my country fell to the Soviets for over sixty years . The situation here is a direct result of that action. You have to understand that my nation was ripped apart with almost all of our intelligence killed or banished first by Germans then by Russian and replaced by the obedient Soviet raised ,,authorities" only now we're reclaiming our national identity. So pardon me about being sensitive about people who were directly involved in those events.
Except they were human, just as the old man is now. There's nothing else to even say on this matter.
Then if you ever visit Poland, seek a Camp survivor and ask him or her if SS members were humans or monsters to them. Then you will have your answer. Because only they can decide on that.
Since we're talking past tense, yes, my ancestors did suffer death and destruction. As did everybody who exists ancestors. My Swedish ancest… moreors suffered the brutal Christianization of Scandinavia, and my German ancestors more recently suffered the destruction and rape of their country at the hands of the Soviets, not that they didn't start the war, but they still suffered as a result. Those are just two examples. Maybe a sixth of their populations weren't killed, but they still suffered. War and death has plagued all people, and despite the atrocities committed against yours, that doesn't somehow excuse inhumanity on your behalf.
If you ever want to move on in life from events that happened most likely not within the scope of your own lifetime, you need to learn that doing unto others as they have done to you is not a means of creating a better and more peaceful world. The Nazi party in Germany was destroyed, the people involved stood tria… [view original content]
I moved on trust me on that, I don't hate germans now but what I hate is trying to somehow clean them by saying not all of them were evil or push the blame to the mysterius Nazi race while not saying out right that those were germans. Not to mention the infamous Polish concentration camps.
Who is trying to "clean" them? Has anyone here said that the SS was a group of wonderful people who did nothing wrong? I'm yet to see that post. The point people are trying to make, the thing that you don't seem to be grasping, is that you can't condemn every single person when condemning a group. If you want a more modern example, some Muslims are terrorists, but we don't kill everyone that went to the same Mosque as one of the terrorists.
Then if you ever visit Poland, seek a Camp survivor and ask him or her if SS members were humans or monsters to them. Then you will have your answer. Because only they can decide on that.
Referring to humans as monsters doesn't change the fact that they are humans. Humans are capable of monstrous things, but that doesn't change what they are. This is called the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
my German ancestors more recently suffered the destruction and rape of their country at the hands of the Soviets,
Germany got what i… moret deserved.
If you ever want to move on in life from events that happened most likely not within the scope of your own lifetime, you need to learn that doing unto others as they have done to you is not a means of creating a better and more peaceful world. The Nazi party in Germany was destroyed, the people involved stood trial. The SS no longer exists. They hold no practical influence in any nation. It's over. Picking on a 95 year old man with a mental illness to make yourself feel better is simply inhumane. Particularly given that he was involved in the camp for only one month, there are no records of him killing anyone, and he already served a sentence for his involvement.
I moved on trust me on that, I don't hate germans now but what I hate when people are trying to somehow clean Nazi by saying n… [view original content]
I would like for you to find for me where I stated that the things you just said aren't true. The very specific example I am speaking of is Lauri. Lauri did not join to keep the German people under Hitler's thumb. He joined to better his fight against the Soviets at a time when Germany and the SS were fighting the Soviets. He was a man that joined the SS, and his reason wasn't to kill Jews or to oppress the masses.
In Hitler's decription of SS in 1930 he stated: The first and formost task of SS is police service within the party. Only later they became combat force. I can give you that he joined to fight Soviets, no discussion on that. But how many of Lauri's were within SS?
Exceptions are exactly the point I'm trying to make. If there are exceptions, it means that on an individual level people had their own reasons. You can't say that every single person was "x," and then be able to come up with exceptions if the rule you are proposing is supposed to be absolute. And if the rule you are proposing isn't supposed to be absolute, then you're simply proving my point.
And what did he do to others that was any worse than what any other soldier in the war did? He received training and equipment in order to better support Finland's defense against the Soviets. I'm yet to see any records of him being involved in camps. He received training, and then he fought the Soviets, who happened to be invading his country. He fought his enemy, just as every soldier did. So yes, I would say that him simply having been a part of the SS, but only for the reason to fight the Soviets, does not constitute him as being evil, irregardless of his deeds in America.
No rule is absolute I'm aware of that but few positve exceptions don't change the facts about SS. In his case the six year prison stay would suffice as punishment since basically the was like Wehrmacht. You have fair point here.
But we're talking about a person who served at multiple camps. that's the difference.
Again I call BS on that. SS was a personal army of Hitler way before he even considered fighting with Soviets, that was just a side quest fo… morer them. They were a police force to keep everyone in check. Read a bit of history before uttering things like that.
I would like for you to find for me where I stated that the things you just said aren't true. The very specific example I am speaking of is Lauri. Lauri did not join to keep the German people under Hitler's thumb. He joined to better his fight against the Soviets at a time when Germany and the SS were fighting the Soviets. He was a man that joined the SS, and his reason wasn't to kill Jews or to oppress the masses.
Also Lauri Törn joined for the very reason you mentioned so he wasn't true SS memeber, he just used the occasion to get the best equipment. But still that doesn't change the fact that he joined most heinous organization of those times.
Except he was a true me… [view original content]
Who is trying to "clean" them? Has anyone here said that the SS was a group of wonderful people who did nothing wrong? I'm yet to see that post. The point people are trying to make, the thing that you don't seem to be grasping, is that you can't condemn every single person when condemning a group. If you want a more modern example, some Muslims are terrorists, but we don't kill everyone that went to the same Mosque as one of the terrorists.
I understand the point you're trying to make. What I'm saying that actions like bringing ,,good" individuals from those groups tends to make an illusion that they were just people which most from there were forced to do so.
Referring to humans as monsters doesn't change the fact that they are humans. Humans are capable of monstrous things, but that doesn't change what they are. This is called the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
I disagree, some people don't deserve to be regarded as humans, for example ISIS if we're going by modern. With their actions they gave away any rights to be treated as human beings.
I moved on trust me on that, I don't hate germans now but what I hate is trying to somehow clean them by saying not all of them were evil or… more push the blame to the mysterius Nazi race while not saying out right that those were germans. Not to mention the infamous Polish concentration camps.
Who is trying to "clean" them? Has anyone here said that the SS was a group of wonderful people who did nothing wrong? I'm yet to see that post. The point people are trying to make, the thing that you don't seem to be grasping, is that you can't condemn every single person when condemning a group. If you want a more modern example, some Muslims are terrorists, but we don't kill everyone that went to the same Mosque as one of the terrorists.
Then if you ever visit Poland, seek a Camp survivor and ask him or her if SS members were humans or monsters to them. Then you will have your answer. Because only they can decide on that.
Referring … [view original content]
I bet if he tried hard enough he could be relocated to different post but he stayed till the very end so yeah not buying that.
What … moreposts could he be reassigned to?
Is an SS member innocent by definition? So yeah guilty till proven is only way for those people.
Is anyone innocent by definition? According to all we have, he wasn't responsible for any killings done there.
What posts could he be reassigned to?
Front lines? Supply run whatever just not camps?
Is anyone innocent by definition? Accor… moreding to all we have, he wasn't responsible for any killings done there.
Is anyone a member of organization responsible for millions of deaths?
Comments
Well, that actually explains it. It wasn't under German law, so the current trial isn't affected by ne bis in idem, at least I think that's how it works
RammsteinFürImmer beat you by a minute or so, but thanks for the clarification nonetheless.
Are you freakin serious? SS was the very cream of the Hitlers forces only those who truly belived in what he was doing were invited. Those people were monsters just like this guy who worked in concentration camp and before you start about his following orders he could always desert and ran to the Allies. Not to mention that he was a paramedic so he exactly knew what was going on there so please spare me the BS
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Please go into further depth as to the ways in which you suffered at their hands, I'm all ears.
And they happened to also be a group dedicated to fighting the Soviets, a group that was offered extensive training to be able to do so. I have already provided the example of Lauri Törni joining for this reason, and I've also explicitly stated twice now that this was just one reason and not the reason people joined, so please stop it because it made you look like someone that doesn't read and is spewing the same debunked arguments at me as the last person.
Trying to appeal to the emotions of other readers in order to "debunk" what I've said is not a very good way to get your point across. I actually don't look like a Nazi sympathizer at all, I look like someone that said something and then backed it up with historical evidence. Or do you think that Lauri Törni is someone that I just made up? Even though he's regarded as an American hero for his time spent in the US military after WWII? Or, if you do believe in him, do you think we should posthumously revoke his achievements and wipe him from history as just another scumbag?
If he'd tried to desert and failed, he'd have been shot or faced the gas chambers. Do you actually know what his chances would have been of escaping and getting to the Allies?
Yes.
Yes, that is true in a general sense. He almost certianly did believe in what Germans where doing, just as an unfathomable amount of other Germans did within and outside of the SS. Then again, he did have knowledge where most others did not. Plus, he was in the Hitler Youth, so he had this seed planted in him.
Yes, for the most part, yes.
You see, here is where I have trouble with his trial. As much as he most likely was a believer in Hitler's cult of personality and that of the mission of the SS, he had no direct involvement.
He could not, at the camp, anyway. He was well and truly behind the lines during his time there, so there is the fact that he had nowhere he could go if he wanted to desert. Furthermore, he later was transferred to the west, where he fell into British hands.
Most stationed at the camp knew what was happening. Furthermore, there is also his aforementioned lack of a direct role in the killings (No source I have found states him as having played a direct role in any way, despite his role as a paramedic). I do have a problem with his former beliefs, that I shall not deny. But he is being tried for simply being there and having knowledge; that is my problem.
No bullshit, I assure you. If you have a source proving any of my observations wrong, please refer to it.
Rather than sources or evidence I suspect you'll just be called a Nazi sympathizer, and somehow that will be meant to invalidate everything you've said.
People just keep on acting as if everything is black and white and/or jump to conclusions. There is no doubt in my mind that the NDSAP and the SS where evil organisations. Yet, on and individual level, things can and do vary greatly. You have the most evil of the evil with the likes of Hitler and Mengele, and on the other end, you have people like Lauri Törni (as you had previously mentioned).
"You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
I don't like the movie this came from, but I can't help but like this quote, especially in this situation. People on here are so violently angry at something that happened 70 years ago that they want to practically emulate the events of the people that they are mad at. This has been an enjoyable thread to observe for that reason. Keep it up guys, the dehumanization and calls for death are not even remotely ironic. Not at all.
“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”
"What is better; to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?"
That's exactly it, things on the individual level. People can't seem to grasp that, as you said.
He looks like Rory from Dr. Who. Jussayin.
EDIT:
Hm, well spotted.
Not to mention his service for Finland against the Soviets.
He had an entire Company named after him even. And those aren't even all of his decorations from America alone.
About the same level of my people who hid and protected Jewish or people who willingly went to concetration camps to see what was going and then get to Allies to tell them the truth.
Of course he could, few prisoners ran from the camps and got to the allies but he probably didn't want.
Paramedic do you have any idea what those people were responsible for? Experimenting on prisoners among others, or at the least assisiting. He was at Auschwitz so most likely he was handling the scalpel to Doctor Mengele
also a link where HE claim that he took no part in it.
enter link description here
So yeah they should hang him and all his coworkers(edited) that still is alive.
So easy to say when you don't suffer from the consequences till this day, say did you country ever got razed to the ground with sixth of the population killed hm?
you can't dehumanize something that is not human to begin with.
Like who?
Please go into further depth as to the ways in which you suffered at their hands, I'm all ears.
read my sentence once again then think about what you wrote.
Again I call BS on that. SS was a personal army of Hitler way before he even considered fighting with Soviets, that was just a side quest for them. They were a police force to keep everyone in check. Read a bit of history before uttering things like that. Also Lauri Törn joined for the very reason you mentioned so he wasn't true SS memeber, he just used the occasion to get the best equipment. But still that doesn't change the fact that he joined most heinous organization of those times.
No it's easy to find one of two exceptions from the rule and then say that SS wasn't all evil. Also does the deeds he did for your people wash away the things he did to others? For you he is a hero, for me he is a scumbag like all who wore those uniforms.
Your knees must be sore...From jumping to conclusions! Seriously, could you make a bigger leap of faith.
For fucks sake dude, you're now saying we should kill everyone related to him? They're not responsible even if he was!
Yet he's the evil one.
Oh I didn't know you suffered from the actions of this one man. How in the hell is this one man responsible for the past razing and killings of people in your country?
Ironic.
Hitler was a one man too. It's not about him being one man but what he represents. I never said I personaly did. But suffice so say somethings that are happening today are the direct results of what this man was a part of.
He should face punishment for what he did.
History is one big irony. He at one point throught of other people as sub-human and now look at that people think of him as sub-human.
Since we're talking past tense, yes, my ancestors did suffer death and destruction. As did everybody who exists ancestors. My Swedish ancestors suffered the brutal Christianization of Scandinavia, and my German ancestors more recently suffered the destruction and rape of their country at the hands of the Soviets, not that they didn't start the war, but they still suffered as a result. Those are just two examples. Maybe a sixth of their populations weren't killed, but they still suffered. War and death has plagued all people, and despite the atrocities committed against yours, that doesn't somehow excuse inhumanity on your behalf.
If you ever want to move on in life from events that happened most likely not within the scope of your own lifetime, you need to learn that doing unto others as they have done to you is not a means of creating a better and more peaceful world. The Nazi party in Germany was destroyed, the people involved stood trial. The SS no longer exists. They hold no practical influence in any nation. It's over. Picking on a 95 year old man with a mental illness to make yourself feel better is simply inhumane. Particularly given that he was involved in the camp for only one month, there are no records of him killing anyone, and he already served a sentence for his involvement.
I'd also like to ask you what consequences you suffer from now, 70 years later? I haven't heard much about any camps or gas chambers recently. As far as I can tell Jewish people are treated exactly the same as everyone else at this point in history, at least in the West.
Except they were human, just as the old man is now. There's nothing else to even say on this matter.
Have you read the article?
for his part in the murders of 3,681 people.
According to the indictment, Zafke is accused of knowing that he worked in an extermination camp, knew that it was an extermination camp and that he was 'supportive of the running of this extermination camp.'
Ok maybe I used wrong word. I meant other Nazi still alive so let's say coworkers.
What does this paramedic represent exactly? He wasn't a conspirator at the head of the Nazi Empire, he was one man in one camp. What is happening right now which is directly related to this paramedic?
I'm saying it's ironic that you're calling him sub human and want to punish him for deaths he wasn't doing yet says we should kill him and his entire family.
We have went over this, what could he have done differently which wouldn't result in his death?
Yes, kin doesn't mean coworkers.
You still bring this to personal level I wrote that it's not him as a person but what he represented.
Already fixed that. Didn't mean his family but his coworkers. Also it wasn't proven that he hadn't had the hand in deaths.
Again, what does this one person represent? I have to bring it to a personal level because any other level of blame for this man is ridiculous.
So your idea is guilty till proven innocent? A lot of innocent people die because of that thinking.
Maybe make a choice to remain human? But he was a coward and decied to just follow orders.
Yup my bad.
You didn't answer the question. What could he have done? Don't avoid it.
He represents the worst of human nature, he did all of that willingly. He was stationed and multiple camps, joined HItler's scouts. I bet if he tried hard enough he could be relocated to different post but he stayed till the very end so yeah not buying that.
Is an SS member innocent by definition? So yeah guilty till proven is only way for those people.
What posts could he be reassigned to?
Is anyone innocent by definition? According to all we have, he wasn't responsible for any killings done there.
I would like for you to find for me where I stated that the things you just said aren't true. The very specific example I am speaking of is Lauri. Lauri did not join to keep the German people under Hitler's thumb. He joined to better his fight against the Soviets at a time when Germany and the SS were fighting the Soviets. He was a man that joined the SS, and his reason wasn't to kill Jews or to oppress the masses.
Except he was a true member. He joined and received the training. He fought the Soviets with them. He received an Iron Cross. He joined the organization in order to fight against his enemy, despite the SS's reputation, and no records I've seen prove he did anything to anyone in any camps. The enemy of his enemy was his friend, as the saying goes. It was an opportunity and he took it. I'm sure he wasn't the only Finn to do so.
Exceptions are exactly the point I'm trying to make. If there are exceptions, it means that on an individual level people had their own reasons. You can't say that every single person was "x," and then be able to come up with exceptions if the rule you are proposing is supposed to be absolute. And if the rule you are proposing isn't supposed to be absolute, then you're simply proving my point.
And what did he do to others that was any worse than what any other soldier in the war did? He received training and equipment in order to better support Finland's defense against the Soviets. I'm yet to see any records of him being involved in camps. He received training, and then he fought the Soviets, who happened to be invading his country. He fought his enemy, just as every soldier did. So yes, I would say that him simply having been a part of the SS, but only for the reason to fight the Soviets, does not constitute him as being evil, irregardless of his deeds in America.
Germany got what it deserved.
If you ever want to move on in life from events that happened most likely not within the scope of your own lifetime, you need to learn that doing unto others as they have done to you is not a means of creating a better and more peaceful world. The Nazi party in Germany was destroyed, the people involved stood trial. The SS no longer exists. They hold no practical influence in any nation. It's over. Picking on a 95 year old man with a mental illness to make yourself feel better is simply inhumane. Particularly given that he was involved in the camp for only one month, there are no records of him killing anyone, and he already served a sentence for his involvement.
I moved on trust me on that, I don't hate germans now but what I hate when people are trying to somehow clean Nazi by saying not all of them were evil or push the blame to the mysterius Nazi race while not saying out right that those were germans. Not to mention the infamous Polish concentration camps.
I'm not Jewish, I'm Polish and live in Poland. Because of Nazi my country fell to the Soviets for over sixty years . The situation here is a direct result of that action. You have to understand that my nation was ripped apart with almost all of our intelligence killed or banished first by Germans then by Russian and replaced by the obedient Soviet raised ,,authorities" only now we're reclaiming our national identity. So pardon me about being sensitive about people who were directly involved in those events.
Then if you ever visit Poland, seek a Camp survivor and ask him or her if SS members were humans or monsters to them. Then you will have your answer. Because only they can decide on that.
Who is trying to "clean" them? Has anyone here said that the SS was a group of wonderful people who did nothing wrong? I'm yet to see that post. The point people are trying to make, the thing that you don't seem to be grasping, is that you can't condemn every single person when condemning a group. If you want a more modern example, some Muslims are terrorists, but we don't kill everyone that went to the same Mosque as one of the terrorists.
Referring to humans as monsters doesn't change the fact that they are humans. Humans are capable of monstrous things, but that doesn't change what they are. This is called the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
In Hitler's decription of SS in 1930 he stated: The first and formost task of SS is police service within the party. Only later they became combat force. I can give you that he joined to fight Soviets, no discussion on that. But how many of Lauri's were within SS?
No rule is absolute I'm aware of that but few positve exceptions don't change the facts about SS. In his case the six year prison stay would suffice as punishment since basically the was like Wehrmacht. You have fair point here.
But we're talking about a person who served at multiple camps. that's the difference.
I understand the point you're trying to make. What I'm saying that actions like bringing ,,good" individuals from those groups tends to make an illusion that they were just people which most from there were forced to do so.
I disagree, some people don't deserve to be regarded as humans, for example ISIS if we're going by modern. With their actions they gave away any rights to be treated as human beings.
Front lines? Supply run whatever just not camps?
Is anyone a member of organization responsible for millions of deaths?
Would you honestly risk your life for nothing?
No. No one member of any organization should be responsible for all the organization's actions, especially if they weren't important in it.