For me, Jesus principle recorded here, is the defining standard for figuring out what people, or groups, really are.
"Be on your guard against false prophets; they come to you looking like sheep on the outside, but on the inside they are really like wild wolves. You will know them by what they do. Thorn bushes do not bear grapes, and briers do not bear figs. A healthy tree bears good fruit, but a poor tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a poor tree cannot bear good fruit. And any tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire. So then, you will know the false prophets by what they do." - Mathew 7:15-20.
Again, no matter what ANYBODY says, a person's actions ALWAYS reveal what they really are. The truth about people, groups, or organizations - Political or otherwise - ALWAYS reveal themselves eventually.
And that my friend, is just a fact of life! You know, Elvis Presley once said: "Truth is like the sun, you can shut it out for a time - but it ain't going away."
I have read the Koran, mostly in Arabic, no less.
It's a historical text and many of the concepts aren't relevant anymore, just like the … morebible. It's not an evil book that magically enthralls young minds and turns them into jihadists. People turn to extremism because of their social environment and mental state.
Once again, I implore you to research the topic with an open mind instead of pointing at drivel you pulled off a blog and calling that an argument.
How much longer is it going to take for people to realize that Islam is not a peaceful religion?
What? You mean how it is so violent and idealistically unaccepting unlike the Bible?
Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 2 Kings 2:23-25
If a man sleeps with another man as with a woman, both will have done what is detestable. Both are to be put to death. Their blood shall be upon their own heads. Leviticus 20:13
I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men. She is to be kept silent. 1 Timothy 2:12
And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their deaughters, and shall eat the flesh of their nieghbours during the siege, and in the distress with which their enemies and those that seek their lives afflict. Jeremiah 19:9
When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you. Deuteronomy 20:10-15
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." Genensis 3:16.
I could go on for a looooooooooong time, but I shall leave it there.
For me, Jesus principle recorded here, is the defining standard for figuring out what people, or groups, really are.
"Be on your guard ag… moreainst false prophets; they come to you looking like sheep on the outside, but on the inside they are really like wild wolves. You will know them by what they do. Thorn bushes do not bear grapes, and briers do not bear figs. A healthy tree bears good fruit, but a poor tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a poor tree cannot bear good fruit. And any tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire. So then, you will know the false prophets by what they do." - Mathew 7:15-20.
Again, no matter what ANYBODY says, a person's actions ALWAYS reveal what they really are. The truth about people, groups, or organizations - Political or otherwise - ALWAYS reveal themselves eventually.
And that my friend, is just a fact of life! You know, Elvis Presley once said: "Truth is like the sun, you can shut it out for a time - but it ain't going away."
It's a historical text and many of the concepts aren't relevant anymore, just like the bible. It's not an evil book that magically enthralls young minds and turns them into jihadists. People turn to extremism because of their social environment and mental state.
That is be biggest lie I have ever heard. So tell me why all those people die screaming Allah Akbar? Quran have multiple verses that sanctions such actions and spare me the ,,they were poor and abused" so they joined the terrorist. Have many examples you have that people from wealthy families went to join ISIS? Recently they caught a person responsible for Paris attack in Molenbeek ( Salah Abdeslam) and you know what the peacefull and moderate muslism did? They started rioting because they were furious about it.
Also for the mental state, I guess that some regions of the town are turning into asylums then...
I have read the Koran, mostly in Arabic, no less.
It's a historical text and many of the concepts aren't relevant anymore, just like the … morebible. It's not an evil book that magically enthralls young minds and turns them into jihadists. People turn to extremism because of their social environment and mental state.
Once again, I implore you to research the topic with an open mind instead of pointing at drivel you pulled off a blog and calling that an argument.
What? You mean how it is so violent and idealistically unaccepting unlike the Bible?
Why do you bring bible into the discussion about Islam? It's irrelevant because it's not the matter at hand here. I get that Kenny is a Christian and so on. I also get that no religion is perfect but let's be honest here Islam is the world terrorist religion no denying that fact.
How much longer is it going to take for people to realize that Islam is not a peaceful religion?
What? You mean how it is so violent… more and idealistically unaccepting unlike the Bible?
Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 2 Kings 2:23-25
If a man sleeps with another man as with a woman, both will have done what is detestable. Both are to be put to death. Their blood shall be upon their own heads. Leviticus 20:13
I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men. She is to be kept silent. 1 Timothy 2:12
And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their deaughters, and shall eat the flesh of their nieghbours du… [view original content]
It's not about the part that irritates people. It's about the hypocrisy of Muslism that says that Islam is a religion of peace and love out right lying to people. I like you Zappy but sadly the way Muslims behave in Europe will cause something horrible to happen very soon. If Islam doesn't change it's ways in Europe bad things will start to happen.
But the president of your country gives me hope that the change is possible, I hope that his words are not just words and he will actually rebuild all the Coptic churches destroyed or closed by Muslim Brotherhood
That is be biggest lie I have ever heard. So tell me why all those people die screaming Allah Akbar? Quran have multiple verses that sanctions such actions and spare me the ,,they were poor and abused" so they joined the terrorist.
I shall grant you that the Koran does contain such verses condoning these actions, and that is definitely a defining factor. With that said, it is not the sole factor. The rise of ISIS is (among other things) a result in Sunni's feeling disenfranchised and unrepresented in Iraq's post war government and society. Hence, ISIS managed to gather a great deal of recruits from appealing to this.
Furthermore, the Bible has a great many practices condoned and outlined not dissimilar to what you reference. And yet, you do not see people stoning homosexuals, selling their daughters into sex slavery or the killing and rasing of entire towns and cities in predominately Christian places like Europe.
Have many examples you have that people from wealthy families went to join ISIS?
Again, a compelling point, but I shall again point out that these people you describe have been brainwashed by ISIS propoganda, For the examples where they were not brainwashed but had pre-existing views, so do Christian terrorists (surprise - it happens. A simple google search will show it so), and I mean that not only for the rich but the poorer examples that follow that pattern. We do not see people comparing those that perpetrate and have perpetrated crimes in the name of Christianity to all Christians. Could it perhaps be that these people do not represent the views and ideas of the majority?
Recently they caught a person responsible for Paris attack in Molenbeek ( Salah Abdeslam) and you know what the peacefull and moderate muslism did? They started rioting because they were furious about it.
Again, they do not represent the majority any more than the KKK represent all Anglo-Saxon Protestant Americans.
It's a historical text and many of the concepts aren't relevant anymore, just like the bible. It's not an evil book that magically enthralls… more young minds and turns them into jihadists. People turn to extremism because of their social environment and mental state.
That is be biggest lie I have ever heard. So tell me why all those people die screaming Allah Akbar? Quran have multiple verses that sanctions such actions and spare me the ,,they were poor and abused" so they joined the terrorist. Have many examples you have that people from wealthy families went to join ISIS? Recently they caught a person responsible for Paris attack in Molenbeek ( Salah Abdeslam) and you know what the peacefull and moderate muslism did? They started rioting because they were furious about it.
Also for the mental state, I guess that some regions of the town are turning into asylums then...
enter link description here
Have many examples you have that people from wealthy families went to join ISIS?
The Quran does have verses that, negating their historical context, can easily be taken as justification for killing infidels, but none of the abrahamic religions are void of genocidal justification and other such atrocities. The only notable difference between the two is that, in the context of now, the Quran seemingly justifies the genocide of individuals not limited to a specific people (this is a misunderstanding, the way I understand it the justified killings that Muhammad talks about begins and ends with the infidels of ancient Mecca, but Islamists have requisitioned this phrasing to apply to every none believer). In any case there is a simple line of reasoning that explains wealthy people attempting to join ISIS and the like, and it isn't "because they're Islamic." Fire begets fire. If a person is interested in the atrocities that Daesh (not sure if I'm using that correctly) commits then where would they go to fulfill their desires? Well, ISIS, obviously. It's the most known place/group for just such interests.
EDIT: It's a sad day when you find yourself defending something you have absolutely no respect for.
It's a historical text and many of the concepts aren't relevant anymore, just like the bible. It's not an evil book that magically enthralls… more young minds and turns them into jihadists. People turn to extremism because of their social environment and mental state.
That is be biggest lie I have ever heard. So tell me why all those people die screaming Allah Akbar? Quran have multiple verses that sanctions such actions and spare me the ,,they were poor and abused" so they joined the terrorist. Have many examples you have that people from wealthy families went to join ISIS? Recently they caught a person responsible for Paris attack in Molenbeek ( Salah Abdeslam) and you know what the peacefull and moderate muslism did? They started rioting because they were furious about it.
Also for the mental state, I guess that some regions of the town are turning into asylums then...
enter link description here
I shall grant you that the Koran does contain such verses condoning these actions, and that is definitely a defining factor. With that said, it is not the sole factor. The rise of ISIS is (among other things) a result in Sunni's feeling disenfranchised and unrepresented in Iraq's post war government and society. Hence, ISIS managed to gather a great deal of recruits from appealing to this.
I never said it was a sole factor but outright denial that Quran has nothing to do with that is foolish, you have to give me that.
Christian terrorists (surprise - it happens. A simple google search will show it so), and I mean that not only for the rich but the poorer examples that follow that pattern. We do not see people comparing those that perpetrate and have perpetrated crimes in the name of Christianity to all Christians. Could it perhaps be that these people do not represent the views and ideas of the majority?
I agree but don't you see the difference in scale? Christian terrorists nowadays are almost exclusively ,,Lone Wolves" and are not nearly as organized nor have such support in their communities as ISIS. Nor you see Christians so openly opposing the state they live in and demand that everyone should live as they do
That is be biggest lie I have ever heard. So tell me why all those people die screaming Allah Akbar? Quran have multiple verses that sanctio… morens such actions and spare me the ,,they were poor and abused" so they joined the terrorist.
I shall grant you that the Koran does contain such verses condoning these actions, and that is definitely a defining factor. With that said, it is not the sole factor. The rise of ISIS is (among other things) a result in Sunni's feeling disenfranchised and unrepresented in Iraq's post war government and society. Hence, ISIS managed to gather a great deal of recruits from appealing to this.
Furthermore, the Bible has a great many practices condoned and outlined not dissimilar to what you reference. And yet, you do not see people stoning homosexuals, selling their daughters into sex slavery or the killing and rasing of entire towns and cities in predominately Christian places like Europe.
Have many e… [view original content]
If a person is interested in the atrocities that Daesh (not sure if I'm using that correctly) commits then where would they go to fulfill their desires?
So you say that a Christian that wants to kill and rape can go join ISIS? We both know the answer. ISIS exist becuase it's have a ground in Quran to exist and raher large percent of Muslims believe in that so saying that ISIS have nothing to do with Islam is like than saying that Nazi had nothing to do with Germans
Have many examples you have that people from wealthy families went to join ISIS?
The Quran does have verses that, negating their his… moretorical context, can easily be taken as justification for killing infidels, but none of the abrahamic religions are void of genocidal justification and other such atrocities. The only notable difference between the two is that, in the context of now, the Quran seemingly justifies the genocide of individuals not limited to a specific people (this is a misunderstanding, the way I understand it the justified killings that Muhammad talks about begins and ends with the infidels of ancient Mecca, but Islamists have requisitioned this phrasing to apply to every none believer). In any case there is a simple line of reasoning that explains wealthy people attempting to join ISIS and the like, and it isn't "because they're Islamic." Fire begets fire. If a person is interested in the atrocities that Daesh (not sure i… [view original content]
Because Christianity it is also a religion of which terrorism has, and does continue in some incidents, to have acts of terrorism commited in it's name. Yet, it does not get as much attention. It IS relevant for I use it in an analogy.
let's be honest here Islam is the world terrorist religion no denying that fact.
Because the two Lebanese Muslim students at my school both are totally secretly plotting to attack me in the yard in broad daylight, hacking me to death with meat cleavers.
Terrorism has and is commited in the name of all Abrahamic Religions. The only reason why Islam is so large in this is not with the religion itself, but rather with the political and economic climate that has allowed this extremism to manifest and spread, in the same way that the political and economic climate of 1930s Europe gave way for patriotism to manifest as facist nationalism in Germany and Italy.
And before you pounce on how Patriotism and Religion are different, they both inspire a sense of meaning and purpose beyond one's self. One way is for the country, the other is for God. In fact, history shows that the two can and do intertwine.
What? You mean how it is so violent and idealistically unaccepting unlike the Bible?
Why do you bring bible into the discussion abou… moret Islam? It's irrelevant because it's not the matter at hand here. I get that Kenny is a Christian and so on. I also get that no religion is perfect but let's be honest here Islam is the world terrorist religion no denying that fact.
Again, the problem is not with the religion itself, but with the political and economic state in the lands where it has become so prevalent. And these isolated incidents of people leaving a comfortable existance for this are likely, I argue, the lone wolves you describe pouncing on the opportunity of joining up with large groups of like-minded people.
I do see the scale difference, but it is not a direct result of the religion itself.
I shall grant you that the Koran does contain such verses condoning these actions, and that is definitely a defining factor. With that said,… more it is not the sole factor. The rise of ISIS is (among other things) a result in Sunni's feeling disenfranchised and unrepresented in Iraq's post war government and society. Hence, ISIS managed to gather a great deal of recruits from appealing to this.
I never said it was a sole factor but outright denial that Quran has nothing to do with that is foolish, you have to give me that.
Christian terrorists (surprise - it happens. A simple google search will show it so), and I mean that not only for the rich but the poorer examples that follow that pattern. We do not see people comparing those that perpetrate and have perpetrated crimes in the name of Christianity to all Christians. Could it perhaps be that these people do not represent the views and ideas of the majority?
I agree but don'… [view original content]
No, an outspoken Christian cannot go join ISIS. But a Christian interested in rape, murder, and control over others can decide to go join ISIS. If Daesh were Christians and a Muslim wished to rape and murder freely then they could just as easily change their ideological position and join the Christian Daesh. Them raping and murdering is a non sequitur to them being Islamic, especially when you realize that the vast majority of the people they hurt and murder openly identify as Muslims. Quotes from the Quran definitely justify their actions, but those of the Judaism religion are just as justified in killing disobedient children, killing adulterers, and killing homosexuals. The Quran, at most, is justification for what they do, not the cause of it.
Who said Islam has nothing to do with ISIS? That would be an asinine thing to say.
If a person is interested in the atrocities that Daesh (not sure if I'm using that correctly) commits then where would they go to fulfill th… moreeir desires?
So you say that a Christian that wants to kill and rape can go join ISIS? We both know the answer. ISIS exist becuase it's have a ground in Quran to exist and raher large percent of Muslims believe in that so saying that ISIS have nothing to do with Islam is like than saying that Nazi had nothing to do with Germans
Like I said, people turn to it because of their social conditions. If a child is conditioned by their teachers or imams to take every word of the Quran literally and to harbor a hatred for infidels and western society, then they're most likely going to internalize it and adopt the same views. Likewise, alienation and isolation too breeds extremism.
As for mental state, some people have voices (God) in their head, some people can't feel empathy, others are just plain sadistic. The Quran doesn't make them that way, but in their minds, it gives them divine sanction to indulge their barbaric impulses.
I never said the Quran (and by extension, Islam) has nothing to do with extremism, just that it doesn't, by itself, cause extremism. Problems mostly arise when negative social conditions (mass migration, ghettos, brainwashing) encourage it.
The Quran isn't the root cause of extremism, evil always finds a justification.
It's a historical text and many of the concepts aren't relevant anymore, just like the bible. It's not an evil book that magically enthralls… more young minds and turns them into jihadists. People turn to extremism because of their social environment and mental state.
That is be biggest lie I have ever heard. So tell me why all those people die screaming Allah Akbar? Quran have multiple verses that sanctions such actions and spare me the ,,they were poor and abused" so they joined the terrorist. Have many examples you have that people from wealthy families went to join ISIS? Recently they caught a person responsible for Paris attack in Molenbeek ( Salah Abdeslam) and you know what the peacefull and moderate muslism did? They started rioting because they were furious about it.
Also for the mental state, I guess that some regions of the town are turning into asylums then...
enter link description here
Again, the problem is not with the religion itself, but with the political and economic state in the lands where it has become so prevalent. And these isolated incidents of people leaving a comfortable existance for this are likely, I argue, the lone wolves you describe pouncing on the opportunity of joining up with large groups of like-minded people.
I do see the scale difference, but it is not a direct result of the religion itself.
Then what about Muslims from Europe that so fiercely demand Sharia Law? It is the religion problem because Islam do not accept anything else than Islam. check how many ISIS recruits are from Europe, in many cases those guys are most fanatical.
Again, the problem is not with the religion itself, but with the political and economic state in the lands where it has become so prevalent.… more And these isolated incidents of people leaving a comfortable existance for this are likely, I argue, the lone wolves you describe pouncing on the opportunity of joining up with large groups of like-minded people.
I do see the scale difference, but it is not a direct result of the religion itself.
No, an outspoken Christian cannot go join ISIS. But a Christian interested in rape, murder, and control over others can decide to go join ISIS. If Daesh were Christians and a Muslim wished to rape and murder freely then they could just as easily change their ideological position and join the Christian Daesh. Them raping and murdering is a non sequitur to them being Islamic, especially when you realize that the vast majority of the people they hurt and murder openly identify as Muslims.
The is no such thing as Christian Deash and I dobut that it will ever be. For Christian to join ISIS he/she would have to become muslim first.
Quotes from the Quran definitely justify their actions, but those of the Judaism religion are just as justified in killing disobedient children, killing adulterers, and killing homosexuals. The Quran, at most, is justification for what they do, not the cause of it.
What? You just contradicted yourself. Quran justify the actions but is not the cause of it? What the hell? So let me get you straight. If they kill homesexulas, infidels, opress women ect just as it was written in they holy manual it's not the reason of their actions? So why they do it? What possibly they could gain from killing homosexulas, infidels and so on? Quran is the cause of it, face it.
Who said Islam has nothing to do with ISIS? That would be an asinine thing to say.
You call them Daesh instead of Muslims as if they are something other than Muslims. It's the same practice as to always call Germans Nazi instead of the German so you push the responsibility out of certain group to a closer unspecified one.
No, an outspoken Christian cannot go join ISIS. But a Christian interested in rape, murder, and control over others can decide to go join IS… moreIS. If Daesh were Christians and a Muslim wished to rape and murder freely then they could just as easily change their ideological position and join the Christian Daesh. Them raping and murdering is a non sequitur to them being Islamic, especially when you realize that the vast majority of the people they hurt and murder openly identify as Muslims. Quotes from the Quran definitely justify their actions, but those of the Judaism religion are just as justified in killing disobedient children, killing adulterers, and killing homosexuals. The Quran, at most, is justification for what they do, not the cause of it.
Who said Islam has nothing to do with ISIS? That would be an asinine thing to say.
Terrorism has and is commited in the name of all Abrahamic Religions. The only reason why Islam is so large in this is not with the religion itself, but rather with the political and economic climate that has allowed this extremism to manifest and spread, in the same way that the political and economic climate of 1930s Europe gave way for patriotism to manifest as facist nationalism in Germany and Italy.
Very important point here. People our age don't realize that the Middle East wasn't always the way it was now. The 50's to 70's was something of a golden age for most middle eastern countries. Sure, countries like Syria and Egypt had authoritarian regimes, but they also had infrastructure, technology, thriving culture and secular government. Secular Arab pride was systematically snuffed out (whose at fault is debateable) and a lot of the poverty and religious fundamentalism we see now is the result.
Because Christianity it is also a religion of which terrorism has, and does continue in some incidents, to have acts of terrorism commited i… moren it's name. Yet, it does not get as much attention. It IS relevant for I use it in an analogy.
let's be honest here Islam is the world terrorist religion no denying that fact.
Because the two Lebanese Muslim students at my school both are totally secretly plotting to attack me in the yard in broad daylight, hacking me to death with meat cleavers.
Terrorism has and is commited in the name of all Abrahamic Religions. The only reason why Islam is so large in this is not with the religion itself, but rather with the political and economic climate that has allowed this extremism to manifest and spread, in the same way that the political and economic climate of 1930s Europe gave way for patriotism to manifest as facist nationalism in Germany and Italy.
And before you pounce on how Patriotis… [view original content]
Because Christianity it is also a religion of which terrorism has, and does continue in some incidents, to have acts of terrorism commited in it's name. Yet, it does not get as much attention. It IS relevant for I use it in an analogy.
Some incidents not mass slaughter all around the world
Because the two Lebanese Muslim students at my school both are totally secretly plotting to attack me in the yard in broad daylight, hacking me to death with meat cleavers.
Terrorism has and is commited in the name of all Abrahamic Religions. The only reason why Islam is so large in this is not with the religion itself, but rather with the political and economic climate that has allowed this extremism to manifest and spread, in the same way that the political and economic climate of 1930s Europe gave way for patriotism to manifest as facist nationalism in Germany and Italy.
Surely nowadys Europe with it's rich social security sytems is as bad as it was in 30' and forces them to become radicals...
Because Christianity it is also a religion of which terrorism has, and does continue in some incidents, to have acts of terrorism commited i… moren it's name. Yet, it does not get as much attention. It IS relevant for I use it in an analogy.
let's be honest here Islam is the world terrorist religion no denying that fact.
Because the two Lebanese Muslim students at my school both are totally secretly plotting to attack me in the yard in broad daylight, hacking me to death with meat cleavers.
Terrorism has and is commited in the name of all Abrahamic Religions. The only reason why Islam is so large in this is not with the religion itself, but rather with the political and economic climate that has allowed this extremism to manifest and spread, in the same way that the political and economic climate of 1930s Europe gave way for patriotism to manifest as facist nationalism in Germany and Italy.
And before you pounce on how Patriotis… [view original content]
Like I said, people turn to it because of their social conditions. If a child is conditioned by their teachers or imams to take every word of the Quran literally and to harbor a hatred for infidels and western society, then they're most likely going to internalize it and adopt the same views. Likewise, alienation and isolation too breeds extremism.
But those Imams have to have to support their words don't they? It's fairly easy with Quran and it'snumerous quotes about Islam superiority.
The Quran doesn't make them that way, but in their minds, it gives them divine sanction to indulge their barbaric impulses.
So it makes them indulge to their sick urges with it's quotes.
The Quran isn't the root cause of extremism, evil always finds a justification
Of course it is. All their ideology is based on that book, everyhting they do is in accordance to the very letter.
Like I said, people turn to it because of their social conditions. If a child is conditioned by their teachers or imams to take every word … moreof the Quran literally and to harbor a hatred for infidels and western society, then they're most likely going to internalize it and adopt the same views. Likewise, alienation and isolation too breeds extremism.
As for mental state, some people have voices (God) in their head, some people can't feel empathy, others are just plain sadistic. The Quran doesn't make them that way, but in their minds, it gives them divine sanction to indulge their barbaric impulses.
I never said the Quran (and by extension, Islam) has nothing to do with extremism, just that it doesn't, by itself, cause extremism. Problems mostly arise when negative social conditions (mass migration, ghettos, brainwashing) encourage it.
The Quran isn't the root cause of extremism, evil always finds a justification.
I don't see how any of this contradicts my main point.
But those Imams have to have to support their words don't they? It's fairly easy with Quran and it'snumerous quotes about Islam superiority.
Yes, we are in agreement that the book can be used as a tool of indoctrination, as can anything else.
So it makes them indulge to their sick urges with it's quotes.
Not really. The psychosis is still the primary driver of their violent behavior.
So it makes them indulge to their sick urges with it's quotes.
Actually, many bad things about Islam have a cultural, rather than religious basis. You don't see many Muslim Malays and Morrocans murdering infidels or veiling their women from head to foot. The Quran by itself is just a religious text that hasn't held up terribly well. Filtered through a reactionary culture and negative social conditions, it becomes a tool of oppression. Another good example of this principle in action is the Catholic fundamentalism in Spain. People joined the Carlists and Falange for a lot of the same reasons they join ISIS: to murder, rape and steal for a "noble" cause.
Like I said, people turn to it because of their social conditions. If a child is conditioned by their teachers or imams to take every word o… moref the Quran literally and to harbor a hatred for infidels and western society, then they're most likely going to internalize it and adopt the same views. Likewise, alienation and isolation too breeds extremism.
But those Imams have to have to support their words don't they? It's fairly easy with Quran and it'snumerous quotes about Islam superiority.
The Quran doesn't make them that way, but in their minds, it gives them divine sanction to indulge their barbaric impulses.
So it makes them indulge to their sick urges with it's quotes.
The Quran isn't the root cause of extremism, evil always finds a justification
Of course it is. All their ideology is based on that book, everyhting they do is in accordance to the very letter.
I don't see how any of this contradicts my main point.
Social conditions and religion are one in Islam culture so seperating the two is simply grand overlook.
Yes, we are in agreement that the book can be used as a tool of indoctrination, as can anything else.
so you agree that Quran can be a source of extremism?
Not really. The psychosis is still the primary driver of their violent behavior.
Then what about all those Muslim in Europe that demand Sharia or riot for some shit like in france few years ago? Suprisingly many psychosis within Islam faith. The sad fact is that Islam attracts psychos as well as make them en masse
Actually, many bad things about Islam have a cultural, rather than religious basis. You don't see many Muslim Malays and Morrocans murdering infidels or veiling their women from head to foot. The Quran by itself is just a religious text that hasn't held up terribly well. Filtered through a reactionary culture and negative social conditions, it becomes a tool of oppression.
I agree that there are less radical Muslims societies there but none of them gives minorities such rights as we gave them. So explain to me why we should give them anything when they clearly oppress other cultures ours included?
I don't see how any of this contradicts my main point.
But those Imams have to have to support their words don't they? It's fairly eas… morey with Quran and it'snumerous quotes about Islam superiority.
Yes, we are in agreement that the book can be used as a tool of indoctrination, as can anything else.
So it makes them indulge to their sick urges with it's quotes.
Not really. The psychosis is still the primary driver of their violent behavior.
So it makes them indulge to their sick urges with it's quotes.
Actually, many bad things about Islam have a cultural, rather than religious basis. You don't see many Muslim Malays and Morrocans murdering infidels or veiling their women from head to foot. The Quran by itself is just a religious text that hasn't held up terribly well. Filtered through a reactionary culture and negative social conditions, it becomes a tool of oppression. Another good example of this… [view original content]
The is no such thing as Christian Deash and I dobut that it will ever be. For Christian to join ISIS he/she would have to become muslim first.
Yes, what does this have to do with the point being made? The societies in which Christianity is predominant have, by and large, become "better". The atrocious books they follow are as atrocious as ever.
You just contradicted yourself. Quran justify the actions but is not the cause of it?
That's not a contradiction. Justification for and causation of are not the same thing.
What the hell? So let me get you straight. If they kill homesexulas, infidels, opress women ect just as it was written in they holy manual it's not the reason of their actions? So why they do it? What possibly they could gain from killing homosexulas, infidels and so on? Quran is the cause of it, face it.
What do they get? A sense of domination and control, peer acceptance, cultural admiration. This is the part of the conversation where we can get into topics that actually influence their actions and mindset (tribalism, opposition to education, reverence of tradition, etc.), and where we can ask the more important question, "what causes them to interpret the Quran as they do, in a deplorable and damaging fashion?"
You call them Daesh instead of Muslims as if they are something other than Muslims. It's the same practice as to always call Germans Nazi instead of the German so you push the responsibility out of certain group to a closer unspecified one.
It's a separation of Muslims with more respectable beliefs from Islamic extremists. I say more respectable because no religious beliefs are worthy of respect in my opinion. It seems to me that if you did not separate the group "Nazis" from the rest of the German people then when you wish to refer to that specific group within that group, those which held detrimental beliefs, you would have no way of doing so. That's ludicrous to equate the two subgroups. Why not just label the terrorist groups religious terrorists, because that's what they are? Right, because equating Buddhist monks to Islamic terrorists is ludicrous.
EDIT: In addition I call then Daesh instead of Islamic extremists because they themselves despise the title. They are interchangeable except one is more slanderous, which I find rather fitting.
No, an outspoken Christian cannot go join ISIS. But a Christian interested in rape, murder, and control over others can decide to go join IS… moreIS. If Daesh were Christians and a Muslim wished to rape and murder freely then they could just as easily change their ideological position and join the Christian Daesh. Them raping and murdering is a non sequitur to them being Islamic, especially when you realize that the vast majority of the people they hurt and murder openly identify as Muslims.
The is no such thing as Christian Deash and I dobut that it will ever be. For Christian to join ISIS he/she would have to become muslim first.
Quotes from the Quran definitely justify their actions, but those of the Judaism religion are just as justified in killing disobedient children, killing adulterers, and killing homosexuals. The Quran, at most, is justification for what they do, not the cause of it.
What? You just contradicted yourse… [view original content]
I find it hard to believe that secularism was present in any notable fashion and was snuffed out in a few decades. . .
It's also important to note that equating Muslim extremism with other abrahamic extremism at this point is a gross equivocation. Lets not pretend that there are not very serious problems plaguing the Islamic world that hardly apply to the other abrahamic religious groups around the world, and by extention pretty much every group that isn't Islamic. I'm sure that's not what you're saying, but noting it is not superfluous.
Terrorism has and is commited in the name of all Abrahamic Religions. The only reason why Islam is so large in this is not with the religion… more itself, but rather with the political and economic climate that has allowed this extremism to manifest and spread, in the same way that the political and economic climate of 1930s Europe gave way for patriotism to manifest as facist nationalism in Germany and Italy.
Very important point here. People our age don't realize that the Middle East wasn't always the way it was now. The 50's to 70's was something of a golden age for most middle eastern countries. Sure, countries like Syria and Egypt had authoritarian regimes, but they also had infrastructure, technology, thriving culture and secular government. Secular Arab pride was systematically snuffed out (whose at fault is debateable) and a lot of the poverty and religious fundamentalism we see now is the result.
That's not a contradiction. Justification for and causation of are not the same thing.
Yet Quran do both. It cause such behaviors and and justify them. In essence in this example it is very much the same here. It says it's ok to do such thing so it do both of those things at the same time.
What do they get? A sense of domination and control, peer acceptance, cultural admiration. **This is the part of the conversation where we can get into topics that actually influence their actions and mindset (tribalism, opposition to education, reverence of tradition,** etc.), and where we can ask the more important question, "what causes them to interpret the Quran as they do, in a deplorable and damaging fashion?
Those things you enumerate are precisly what apply to religion as it is a vital part of their culture and it influence their very mindset. In what way you can possibily interpret let's say that line ....
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
hmmm I wonder if he's talking about inviting a infidel to a tea party? So yeah you just have to be a good muslim and follow the word of the prophet and there you go....
It's a separation of Muslims with more respectable beliefs from Islamic extremists. I say more respectable because no religious beliefs are worthy of respect in my opinion.
we're both in agreement here.
Nazis" from the rest of the German people then when you wish to refer to that specific group within that group, those which held detrimental beliefs, you would have no way of doing so. That's ludicrous to equate the two subgroups
Nowadays yet, but in the history books it should be clearly stated that Nazi' were Germans.
Why not just label the terrorist groups religious terrorists, because that's what they are? Right, because equating Buddhist monks to Islamic terrorists is ludicrous.
Because the correct way would be Islamic terrorist groups, basically the followers of religion of peace makes for the 90% or more world terrorists
In addition I call then Daesh instead of Islamic extremists because they themselves despise the title. They are interchangeable except one is more slanderous, which I find rather fitting.
That's valid, albeit I'll stay with the Islamic State terminology
The is no such thing as Christian Deash and I dobut that it will ever be. For Christian to join ISIS he/she would have to become muslim firs… moret.
Yes, what does this have to do with the point being made? The societies in which Christianity is predominant have, by and large, become "better". The atrocious books they follow are as atrocious as ever.
You just contradicted yourself. Quran justify the actions but is not the cause of it?
That's not a contradiction. Justification for and causation of are not the same thing.
What the hell? So let me get you straight. If they kill homesexulas, infidels, opress women ect just as it was written in they holy manual it's not the reason of their actions? So why they do it? What possibly they could gain from killing homosexulas, infidels and so on? Quran is the cause of it, face it.
What do they get? A sense of domination and control, peer acceptance, cultural admiration. T… [view original content]
I find it hard to believe that secularism was present in any notable fashion and was snuffed out in a few decades. . .
Believe it, modern Islamic terror rose from the ashes of pan-Arabism. Perhaps 'secular' was too strong of a word though. social conservatism had its role and most of the dictators of the time knew how to pander to the religious crowd. Still, most middle eastern countries (with a few notable exceptions) were quite cosmopolitan and modern. The seeds of future prospers had already been planted in the colonial era, but the 50's to 70's were largely a stable and productive time for the Arab world. Political instability and war largely ended this era of Arab history and the Arab Spring was its death rattle.
It's also important to note that equating Muslim extremism with other abrahamic extremism at this point is a gross equivocation. Lets not pretend that there are not very serious problems plaguing the Islamic world that hardly apply to the other abrahamic religious groups around the world, and by extention pretty much every group that isn't Islamic. I'm sure that's not what you're saying, but noting it is not superfluous.
I was mostly referring to the "political and economic climate" part of Ramm's comment, rather than the "all Abrahamic religions part". I agree though that there are serious problems in Islam, particular Sharia law and cultural imperialism. Reactionary clerics have made it clear that they want religion to have a monopoly over culture, history and daily life. That should be enough to make anyone's bile rise. Still, it's worth noting that these problems are as much a product of culture as it is a project of religion. It would be a mistake to ignore how Islam manifests itself differently depending on the cultural norms of its adherents.
I find it hard to believe that secularism was present in any notable fashion and was snuffed out in a few decades. . .
It's also importan… moret to note that equating Muslim extremism with other abrahamic extremism at this point is a gross equivocation. Lets not pretend that there are not very serious problems plaguing the Islamic world that hardly apply to the other abrahamic religious groups around the world, and by extention pretty much every group that isn't Islamic. I'm sure that's not what you're saying, but noting it is not superfluous.
Social conditions and religion are one in Islam culture so seperating the two is simply grand overlook.
That's simply untrue, such reductionism is beneath you. Muslims like everyone else, have lives to attend to. They go to work, go to school, watch TV, spend quality time with loved ones. People with productive, meaningful lives aren't the target demographic for extremism. Like any gang of crooks, the poor, unemployed, isolated and angry are over-represented in the extremist community.
so you agree that Quran can be a source of extremism?
By itself, no. To a critical reader? Probably not. As a part of religious brainwashing or to the especially dim and impressionable person? Possibly.
Then what about all those Muslim in Europe that demand Sharia or riot for some shit like in france few years ago? Suprisingly many psychosis within Islam faith. The sad fact is that Islam attracts psychos as well as make them en masse
You're taking me out of context here, I was referring to Muslims with pre-existing mental issues, not Muslims in general. As for what happened in France, I don't know. Could be a lot of things. It could be the inevitably bloody consequence of uncontrolled mass immigration without adequate social policies to back it up. It could be the fact that the global recession hit immigrant workers extra hard and led to mass unemployment. It could be France's draconian secularism laws biting it in the tush, it could be the right-wing rag you get your facts from shamelessly blowing things out of proportion. Or maybe, it's just pure religious fervor or reactionary baby rage on the part of those protestors. Hell, it's probably a combination. A Frenchman could probably tell you better than I.
I agree that there are less radical Muslims societies there but none of them gives minorities such rights as we gave them.
None might be too strong a term, but partially agree on principle. Islamic cultural imperialism is a cancer, but it's as much a cultural phenomenon as it is a religious one.
So explain to me why we should give them anything when they clearly oppress other cultures ours included?
That's neither her, nor there in our discussion about the Quran, but ok, I'll bite. I'm personally of the mind that the many shouldn't be condemned for the crimes of few or even the crimes of some. There's nothing to be gained by mistreating Muslims, other than a fleeting moment of twisted, vindictive satisfaction. I think the inverse is true as well and someday soon the Islamic clerics and leaders will need to come to grips with that, or it will be their undoing.
I don't see how any of this contradicts my main point.
Social conditions and religion are one in Islam culture so seperating the two… more is simply grand overlook.
Yes, we are in agreement that the book can be used as a tool of indoctrination, as can anything else.
so you agree that Quran can be a source of extremism?
Not really. The psychosis is still the primary driver of their violent behavior.
Then what about all those Muslim in Europe that demand Sharia or riot for some shit like in france few years ago? Suprisingly many psychosis within Islam faith. The sad fact is that Islam attracts psychos as well as make them en masse
Actually, many bad things about Islam have a cultural, rather than religious basis. You don't see many Muslim Malays and Morrocans murdering infidels or veiling their women from head to foot. The Quran by itself is just a religious text that hasn't held up terribly well. Filtered th… [view original content]
For me, Jesus principle recorded here, is the defining standard for figuring out what people, or groups, really are.
"Be on your guard ag… moreainst false prophets; they come to you looking like sheep on the outside, but on the inside they are really like wild wolves. You will know them by what they do. Thorn bushes do not bear grapes, and briers do not bear figs. A healthy tree bears good fruit, but a poor tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a poor tree cannot bear good fruit. And any tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire. So then, you will know the false prophets by what they do." - Mathew 7:15-20.
Again, no matter what ANYBODY says, a person's actions ALWAYS reveal what they really are. The truth about people, groups, or organizations - Political or otherwise - ALWAYS reveal themselves eventually.
And that my friend, is just a fact of life! You know, Elvis Presley once said: "Truth is like the sun, you can shut it out for a time - but it ain't going away."
That's simply untrue, such reductionism is beneath you. Muslims like everyone else, have lives to attend to. They go to work, go to school, watch TV, spend quality time with loved ones. People with productive, meaningful lives aren't the target demographic for extremism. Like any gang of crooks, the poor, unemployed, isolated and angry are over-represented in the extremist community.
Yet in most of muslim societies the religion is everywhere, almost every single muslim country penalises apostasy by either prison or death. It defines the way they dress, eat and even think.
By itself, no. To a critical reader? Probably not. As a part of religious brainwashing or to the especially dim and impressionable person? Possibly.
Do you really want me to provide nessesary quotes to prove my point? We both know that I will find plently of them. The problem is that most muslims are not critical readers since criticism of Quran is heresy. And the last part...again we both know what kind of people lives in middle east, hell even Europe or America too...
You're taking me out of context here, I was referring to Muslims with pre-existing mental issues, not Muslims in general. As for what happened in France, I don't know. Could be a lot of things. It could be the inevitably bloody consequence of uncontrolled mass immigration without adequate social policies to back it up. It could be the fact that the global recession hit immigrant workers extra hard and led to mass unemployment. It could be France's draconian secularism laws biting it in the tush, it could be the right-wing rag you get your facts from shamelessly blowing things out of proportion. Or maybe, it's just pure religious fervor or reactionary baby rage on the part of those protestors. Hell, it's probably a combination. A Frenchman could probably tell you better than I.
Then what about Uk? Sweden? Denmark? Germany? Nigeria? Everywhere where Muslims have sizeable numbers they cause problems. have you ever heard of...I don't know Hindus or Chinese causing such problems? And let me say that I get my informations from various sources from left to right to form my opinions and sadly more and more often the former hides the facts while the latter blown them out of proportions as you said. So it doesn't matter which side you are on both of them have an agenda and only by getting to look at the matter from all sides you can achive clear view. What's even more sad is the fact that those Muslims who come to Europe are so stunned by the freedom we have here that they don't know how to react. Their whole life have been dictated by one book and they are scared to break their chains. I don't like Muslims on principle but I also pity them, they remind me of North Koreans.
None might be too strong a term, but partially agree on principle. Islamic cultural imperialism is a cancer, but it's as much a cultural phenomenon as it is a religious one.
So you agree that religion takes a part in shaping their mentality? Also I noticed that you seem to divide culture and religion, While it would work for the other societies Muslims societies are virtually theocracies, so I don't think it nessesary to point that difference here.
That's neither her, nor there in our discussion about the Quran, but ok, I'll bite. I'm personally of the mind that the many shouldn't be condemned for the crimes of few or even the crimes of some. There's nothing to be gained by mistreating Muslims, other than a fleeting moment of twisted, vindictive satisfaction. I think the inverse is true as well and someday soon the Islamic clerics and leaders will need to come to grips with that, or it will be their undoing.
Then I hope they will take their heads out of their asses soon. Because I have a nasty feeling that the sentence Muslims like to use in Europe, I quote ,,We are the new Jews!" might become very true in next few decades...
Social conditions and religion are one in Islam culture so seperating the two is simply grand overlook.
That's simply untrue, such r… moreeductionism is beneath you. Muslims like everyone else, have lives to attend to. They go to work, go to school, watch TV, spend quality time with loved ones. People with productive, meaningful lives aren't the target demographic for extremism. Like any gang of crooks, the poor, unemployed, isolated and angry are over-represented in the extremist community.
so you agree that Quran can be a source of extremism?
By itself, no. To a critical reader? Probably not. As a part of religious brainwashing or to the especially dim and impressionable person? Possibly.
Then what about all those Muslim in Europe that demand Sharia or riot for some shit like in france few years ago? Suprisingly many psychosis within Islam faith. The sad fact is that Islam attracts psychos as well as make them … [view original content]
Some incidents not mass slaughter all around the world
This is invalidated by my point with economics and political climates. Furthermore, as result of political climates and economics, history gives us a plethora of examples where Christians have gone on to commit mass slaughter supposedly in the name of God (the 1099 siege of Jerusalem, the Spanish Inquisition, and countless Catholic vs Protestant wars and much more)
Surely those people thought the same enter link description here
Like I have said countless times, THEY DO NOT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY. You have instancees of people doing these deplorable acts and you immediately jump to fear mongering and count all Muslims as being potentially a part of this. If we applied that logic to the KKK, the US would therefore have to be consisted entirely of potential KKK members.
Surely nowadys Europe with it's rich social security sytems is as bad as it was in 30' and forces them to become radicals...
If you refer to the radicalised Muslims in the western world, those people - in theory - would probably have had pre-existing views or had been radicalised by ISIS propaganda.
Because Christianity it is also a religion of which terrorism has, and does continue in some incidents, to have acts of terrorism commited i… moren it's name. Yet, it does not get as much attention. It IS relevant for I use it in an analogy.
Some incidents not mass slaughter all around the world
Because the two Lebanese Muslim students at my school both are totally secretly plotting to attack me in the yard in broad daylight, hacking me to death with meat cleavers.
Surely those people thought the same
enter link description here
Terrorism has and is commited in the name of all Abrahamic Religions. The only reason why Islam is so large in this is not with the religion itself, but rather with the political and economic climate that has allowed this extremism to manifest and spread, in the same way that the political and economic climate of 1930s Europe gave way for patriotism to manifest as facist nationalism in Germany a… [view original content]
Then what about Muslims from Europe that so fiercely demand Sharia Law? It is the religion problem because Islam do not accept anything else than Islam. check how many ISIS recruits are from Europe, in many cases those guys are most fanatical.
Again, these are not the majority. How many times must I explain this to you?
Again, the problem is not with the religion itself, but with the political and economic state in the lands where it has become so prevalent.… more And these isolated incidents of people leaving a comfortable existance for this are likely, I argue, the lone wolves you describe pouncing on the opportunity of joining up with large groups of like-minded people.
I do see the scale difference, but it is not a direct result of the religion itself.
Then what about Muslims from Europe that so fiercely demand Sharia Law? It is the religion problem because Islam do not accept anything else than Islam. check how many ISIS recruits are from Europe, in many cases those guys are most fanatical.
Yet Quran do both. It cause such behaviors and and justify them. In essence in this example it is very much the same here. It says it's ok to do such thing so it do both of those things at the same time.
You honestly think that a book alone will determine how a person acts and thinks? If that's the case then why don't all Muslims adhere to the same Islam, and why is it that we cannot just drop pamphlets onto Daesh territory that state "don't stone ya'lls gals"? Because it's the culture they've been raised in and the interpretation of Islam they have been indoctrinated into that determines how they view the world, not a lonesome book and their thought-provoked personal interpretation of it irrespective of the people around them. The spectrum of types of worshipers alone should be proof enough of that. A holy text is as benign as any other work of fiction such as Cinderella or The Witcher unless the impressionable are told otherwise.
Those things you enumerate are precisly what apply to religion as it is a vital part of their culture and it influence their very mindset.
They are related, sure. The differences in the interpretation and practice of Islam show that it is cultural setting that determines how Islam will be brought into the fold though, mostly.
In what way you can possibily interpret let's say that line ....
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Taking into account the historical context of Muhammad's reasoning this is a quote that can lie perfectly with the moral standards of today, even moreso than a good deal of the laws set down in the Old Testament which most Christians and Jews either exclude or rationalize out of their moral code. So, even if it didn't, there's little reason Muslims couldn't rationalize away that immoral stain like the other religions have.
Nowadays yet, but in the history books it should be clearly stated that Nazi' were Germans.
Okay? It's not wrong even now to say that Nazis were German, or that terrorists are overwhelmingly from Islam. I'm not sure what point you think you're disagreeing with here.
That's valid, albeit I'll stay with the Islamic State terminology
I don't think they deserve the title of "State". It's repugnant.
EDIT: (Forgot this section) Because the correct way would be Islamic terrorist groups, basically the followers of religion of peace makes for the 90% or more world terrorists
Daesh specifically refers to Islamic terrorists (to my knowledge, I could be wrong). It's not as if refering to them as Daesh somehow detracts them from being of the Islamic faith. I really don't understand your line of reasoning here. Should Nazis be called German Supremacist Extremists or something? Just so that everyone is absolutely certain of the fact that they are German? Does "Nazi" not reflect that characteristic? I don't get it. (And, funnily, not all Nazis were/are German. Just look at the neo-nazi groups of today and at how Hitler looked at groups such as the British.)
That's not a contradiction. Justification for and causation of are not the same thing.
Yet Quran do both. It cause such behaviors an… mored and justify them. In essence in this example it is very much the same here. It says it's ok to do such thing so it do both of those things at the same time.
What do they get? A sense of domination and control, peer acceptance, cultural admiration. **This is the part of the conversation where we can get into topics that actually influence their actions and mindset (tribalism, opposition to education, reverence of tradition,** etc.), and where we can ask the more important question, "what causes them to interpret the Quran as they do, in a deplorable and damaging fashion?
Those things you enumerate are precisly what apply to religion as it is a vital part of their culture and it influence their very mindset. In what way you can possibily interpret let's say that line ....
Quran (8:12) - "… [view original content]
This is invalidated by my point with economics and political climates. Furthermore, as result of political climates and economics, history gives us a plethora of examples where Christians have gone on to commit mass slaughter supposedly in the name of God (the 1099 siege of Jerusalem, the Spanish Inquisition, and countless Catholic vs Protestant wars and much more)
Then why for example in Nigeria or other places Muslims seclect Christians and kill them while letting other Muslims go? What kind of economical ground you see here? Political climates? You mean rise of radical Muslims? then sure I agree. Also seriously you're going to drag out somehting that happended almost a millenium ago? People were primitive and limited them. Now they have all the information in the reach of their hands.
Like I have said countless times, THEY DO NOT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY. You have instancees of people doing these deplorable acts and you immediately jump to fear mongering and count all Muslims as being potentially a part of this. If we applied that logic to the KKK, the US would therefore have to be consisted entirely of potential KKK members.
Awfuly lot of that minority I see...but is the MAJORITY that much better with their SHARIA4WORLD agenda?
If you refer to the radicalised Muslims in the western world, those people - in theory - would probably have had pre-existing views or had been radicalised by ISIS propaganda.
Of course they have a pre-existing views dude, they are all gathered in Quran and Haddis( I don't know if I wrote that right)
Some incidents not mass slaughter all around the world
This is invalidated by my point with economics and political climates. Furthe… morermore, as result of political climates and economics, history gives us a plethora of examples where Christians have gone on to commit mass slaughter supposedly in the name of God (the 1099 siege of Jerusalem, the Spanish Inquisition, and countless Catholic vs Protestant wars and much more)
Surely those people thought the same enter link description here
Like I have said countless times, THEY DO NOT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY. You have instancees of people doing these deplorable acts and you immediately jump to fear mongering and count all Muslims as being potentially a part of this. If we applied that logic to the KKK, the US would therefore have to be consisted entirely of potential KKK members.
Surely nowadys Europe with it's rich social security sytems is as bad as it was in 30' and for… [view original content]
Believe it, modern Islamic terror rose from the ashes of pan-Arabism. Perhaps 'secular' was too strong of a word though. social conservatism had its role and most of the dictators of the time knew how to pander to the religious crowd. Still, most middle eastern countries (with a few notable exceptions) were quite cosmopolitan and modern. The seeds of future prospers had already been planted in the colonial era, but the 50's to 70's were largely a stable and productive time for the Arab world. Political instability and war largely ended this era of Arab history and the Arab Spring was its death rattle.
Weird. I had always assumed strife was pretty much constant in the Middle East since the dissolution of the gunpowder empires.
I find it hard to believe that secularism was present in any notable fashion and was snuffed out in a few decades. . .
Believe it, m… moreodern Islamic terror rose from the ashes of pan-Arabism. Perhaps 'secular' was too strong of a word though. social conservatism had its role and most of the dictators of the time knew how to pander to the religious crowd. Still, most middle eastern countries (with a few notable exceptions) were quite cosmopolitan and modern. The seeds of future prospers had already been planted in the colonial era, but the 50's to 70's were largely a stable and productive time for the Arab world. Political instability and war largely ended this era of Arab history and the Arab Spring was its death rattle.
It's also important to note that equating Muslim extremism with other abrahamic extremism at this point is a gross equivocation. Lets not pretend that there are not very serious problems plaguing the Islamic w… [view original content]
Funny how numerous the evil minnority is...but you're right those is still minority. But history proved that what's matter is not a passive Majorty but an active minority...
Then what about Muslims from Europe that so fiercely demand Sharia Law? It is the religion problem because Islam do not accept anything else… more than Islam. check how many ISIS recruits are from Europe, in many cases those guys are most fanatical.
Again, these are not the majority. How many times must I explain this to you?
Then why for example in Nigeria or other places Muslims seclect Christians and kill them while letting other Muslims go? What kind of economical ground you see here? Political climates?
These places you speak of have very poor infastructure, a poor economy and as a result, politics dictated largely by religion. These places are not exempt or special.
seriously you're going to drag out somehting that happended almost a millenium ago? People were primitive and limited them. Now they have all the information in the reach of their hands.
Just because something happened in the past does not invalidate its implications today. The world does not simply progress forever on. The Middle East has regressed due to things like the Mujahideen, Western interference and political fuck ups.
Awfuly lot of that minority I see...but is the MAJORITY that much better with their SHARIA4WORLD agenda?
The majority does not have that agenda you speak of. That was part of my point, but it appears to have passed you by. There are isolated instances in Europe of people wanting that, yes. But these are NOT THE MAJORITY - contrary to what Pegida would have you believe.
Of course they have a pre-existing views dude, they are all gathered in Quran and Haddis( I don't know if I wrote that right)
And so do radical Christians like with the WBC and KKK get their ideas from a holy text. Your point?
This is invalidated by my point with economics and political climates. Furthermore, as result of political climates and economics, history g… moreives us a plethora of examples where Christians have gone on to commit mass slaughter supposedly in the name of God (the 1099 siege of Jerusalem, the Spanish Inquisition, and countless Catholic vs Protestant wars and much more)
Then why for example in Nigeria or other places Muslims seclect Christians and kill them while letting other Muslims go? What kind of economical ground you see here? Political climates? You mean rise of radical Muslims? then sure I agree. Also seriously you're going to drag out somehting that happended almost a millenium ago? People were primitive and limited them. Now they have all the information in the reach of their hands.
Like I have said countless times, THEY DO NOT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY. You have instancees of people doing these deplorable acts and you immedia… [view original content]
You honestly think that a book alone will determine how a person acts and thinks? If that's the case then why don't all Muslims adhere to the same Islam, and why is it that we cannot just drop pamphlets onto Daesh territory that state "don't stone ya'lls gals"? Because it's the culture they've been raised in and the interpretation of Islam they have been indoctrinated into that determines how they view the world, not a lonesome book and their thought-provoked personal interpretation of it irrespective of the people around them. The spectrum of types of worshipers alone should be proof enough of that. A holy text is as benign as any other work of fiction such as Cinderella or The Witcher unless the impressionable are told otherwise.
It's a ground and foundation of their culture. For you it may be a work of fiction but for a lot of them it is somehting to die for...It seems that you don't understand that.
They are related, sure. The differences in the interpretation and practice of Islam show that it is cultural setting that determines how Islam will be brought into the fold though, mostly.
True but let's don't forget that Saudi Arabia's interpretation which is borderline ISIS hold a great value since the Court of Mecca is the closest thing to the universal Muslim court.
Taking into account the historical context of Muhammad's reasoning this is a quote that can lie perfectly with the moral standards of today, even moreso than a good deal of the laws set down in the Old Testament which most Christians and Jews either exclude or rationalize out of their moral code.
Why did you bring other religions into the discussion? They irrelevant to it. Also what moral standards are you talking about? Because beheading people just because they belive in something else is pretty amoral to me...
So, even if it didn't, there's little reason Muslims couldn't rationalize away that immoral stain like the other religions have.
Actually there's a lot of reason Muslims don't rationalize it, first and foremost the very structure of the religion that is basically anti-change and clearly states to kill everyone who dares to critisize it...
Okay? It's not wrong even now to say that Nazis were German, or that terrorists are overwhelmingly from Islam. I'm not sure what point you think you're disagreeing with here.
My point is to not create a misty terms like Daesh. If you didn't know about the subject yet TV would say Daesh did that or that never once metioning that they're muslims it would be used to bleach the stuff Muslims did. Just like the example I gave you with Nazi. You often hear about Nazi concentration camps but more rarely about German concentration camps. It's a way to more a responsibility from Germans to closer unspecified Nazi.
Yet Quran do both. It cause such behaviors and and justify them. In essence in this example it is very much the same here. It says it's ok t… moreo do such thing so it do both of those things at the same time.
You honestly think that a book alone will determine how a person acts and thinks? If that's the case then why don't all Muslims adhere to the same Islam, and why is it that we cannot just drop pamphlets onto Daesh territory that state "don't stone ya'lls gals"? Because it's the culture they've been raised in and the interpretation of Islam they have been indoctrinated into that determines how they view the world, not a lonesome book and their thought-provoked personal interpretation of it irrespective of the people around them. The spectrum of types of worshipers alone should be proof enough of that. A holy text is as benign as any other work of fiction such as Cinderella or The Witcher unless the impressionable are told otherwise.
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Again, these are not the majority. How many times must I explain this to you?
Sweden:
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Uk
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France:
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And my personal favorite:
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Funny how numerous the evil minnority is...but you're right those is still minority. But history proved that what's matter is not a passive Majorty but an active minority...
Comments
For me, Jesus principle recorded here, is the defining standard for figuring out what people, or groups, really are.
"Be on your guard against false prophets; they come to you looking like sheep on the outside, but on the inside they are really like wild wolves. You will know them by what they do. Thorn bushes do not bear grapes, and briers do not bear figs. A healthy tree bears good fruit, but a poor tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a poor tree cannot bear good fruit. And any tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire. So then, you will know the false prophets by what they do." - Mathew 7:15-20.
Again, no matter what ANYBODY says, a person's actions ALWAYS reveal what they really are. The truth about people, groups, or organizations - Political or otherwise - ALWAYS reveal themselves eventually.
And that my friend, is just a fact of life! You know, Elvis Presley once said: "Truth is like the sun, you can shut it out for a time - but it ain't going away."
What? You mean how it is so violent and idealistically unaccepting unlike the Bible?
Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 2 Kings 2:23-25
If a man sleeps with another man as with a woman, both will have done what is detestable. Both are to be put to death. Their blood shall be upon their own heads. Leviticus 20:13
I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men. She is to be kept silent. 1 Timothy 2:12
And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their deaughters, and shall eat the flesh of their nieghbours during the siege, and in the distress with which their enemies and those that seek their lives afflict. Jeremiah 19:9
When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you. Deuteronomy 20:10-15
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." Genensis 3:16.
I could go on for a looooooooooong time, but I shall leave it there.
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It's positively stratospheric
Hopefully Russians will continue to bomb the hell out of them, and Assad&YPG will wipe that filth out
That is be biggest lie I have ever heard. So tell me why all those people die screaming Allah Akbar? Quran have multiple verses that sanctions such actions and spare me the ,,they were poor and abused" so they joined the terrorist. Have many examples you have that people from wealthy families went to join ISIS? Recently they caught a person responsible for Paris attack in Molenbeek ( Salah Abdeslam) and you know what the peacefull and moderate muslism did? They started rioting because they were furious about it.
Also for the mental state, I guess that some regions of the town are turning into asylums then...
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Why do you bring bible into the discussion about Islam? It's irrelevant because it's not the matter at hand here. I get that Kenny is a Christian and so on. I also get that no religion is perfect but let's be honest here Islam is the world terrorist religion no denying that fact.
It's not about the part that irritates people. It's about the hypocrisy of Muslism that says that Islam is a religion of peace and love out right lying to people. I like you Zappy but sadly the way Muslims behave in Europe will cause something horrible to happen very soon. If Islam doesn't change it's ways in Europe bad things will start to happen.
But the president of your country gives me hope that the change is possible, I hope that his words are not just words and he will actually rebuild all the Coptic churches destroyed or closed by Muslim Brotherhood
I shall grant you that the Koran does contain such verses condoning these actions, and that is definitely a defining factor. With that said, it is not the sole factor. The rise of ISIS is (among other things) a result in Sunni's feeling disenfranchised and unrepresented in Iraq's post war government and society. Hence, ISIS managed to gather a great deal of recruits from appealing to this.
Furthermore, the Bible has a great many practices condoned and outlined not dissimilar to what you reference. And yet, you do not see people stoning homosexuals, selling their daughters into sex slavery or the killing and rasing of entire towns and cities in predominately Christian places like Europe.
Again, a compelling point, but I shall again point out that these people you describe have been brainwashed by ISIS propoganda, For the examples where they were not brainwashed but had pre-existing views, so do Christian terrorists (surprise - it happens. A simple google search will show it so), and I mean that not only for the rich but the poorer examples that follow that pattern. We do not see people comparing those that perpetrate and have perpetrated crimes in the name of Christianity to all Christians. Could it perhaps be that these people do not represent the views and ideas of the majority?
Again, they do not represent the majority any more than the KKK represent all Anglo-Saxon Protestant Americans.
Oh, and read this.
The Quran does have verses that, negating their historical context, can easily be taken as justification for killing infidels, but none of the abrahamic religions are void of genocidal justification and other such atrocities. The only notable difference between the two is that, in the context of now, the Quran seemingly justifies the genocide of individuals not limited to a specific people (this is a misunderstanding, the way I understand it the justified killings that Muhammad talks about begins and ends with the infidels of ancient Mecca, but Islamists have requisitioned this phrasing to apply to every none believer). In any case there is a simple line of reasoning that explains wealthy people attempting to join ISIS and the like, and it isn't "because they're Islamic." Fire begets fire. If a person is interested in the atrocities that Daesh (not sure if I'm using that correctly) commits then where would they go to fulfill their desires? Well, ISIS, obviously. It's the most known place/group for just such interests.
EDIT: It's a sad day when you find yourself defending something you have absolutely no respect for.
I never said it was a sole factor but outright denial that Quran has nothing to do with that is foolish, you have to give me that.
I agree but don't you see the difference in scale? Christian terrorists nowadays are almost exclusively ,,Lone Wolves" and are not nearly as organized nor have such support in their communities as ISIS. Nor you see Christians so openly opposing the state they live in and demand that everyone should live as they do
So you say that a Christian that wants to kill and rape can go join ISIS? We both know the answer. ISIS exist becuase it's have a ground in Quran to exist and raher large percent of Muslims believe in that so saying that ISIS have nothing to do with Islam is like than saying that Nazi had nothing to do with Germans
Because Christianity it is also a religion of which terrorism has, and does continue in some incidents, to have acts of terrorism commited in it's name. Yet, it does not get as much attention. It IS relevant for I use it in an analogy.
Because the two Lebanese Muslim students at my school both are totally secretly plotting to attack me in the yard in broad daylight, hacking me to death with meat cleavers.
Terrorism has and is commited in the name of all Abrahamic Religions. The only reason why Islam is so large in this is not with the religion itself, but rather with the political and economic climate that has allowed this extremism to manifest and spread, in the same way that the political and economic climate of 1930s Europe gave way for patriotism to manifest as facist nationalism in Germany and Italy.
And before you pounce on how Patriotism and Religion are different, they both inspire a sense of meaning and purpose beyond one's self. One way is for the country, the other is for God. In fact, history shows that the two can and do intertwine.
Again, the problem is not with the religion itself, but with the political and economic state in the lands where it has become so prevalent. And these isolated incidents of people leaving a comfortable existance for this are likely, I argue, the lone wolves you describe pouncing on the opportunity of joining up with large groups of like-minded people.
I do see the scale difference, but it is not a direct result of the religion itself.
No, an outspoken Christian cannot go join ISIS. But a Christian interested in rape, murder, and control over others can decide to go join ISIS. If Daesh were Christians and a Muslim wished to rape and murder freely then they could just as easily change their ideological position and join the Christian Daesh. Them raping and murdering is a non sequitur to them being Islamic, especially when you realize that the vast majority of the people they hurt and murder openly identify as Muslims. Quotes from the Quran definitely justify their actions, but those of the Judaism religion are just as justified in killing disobedient children, killing adulterers, and killing homosexuals. The Quran, at most, is justification for what they do, not the cause of it.
Who said Islam has nothing to do with ISIS? That would be an asinine thing to say.
Like I said, people turn to it because of their social conditions. If a child is conditioned by their teachers or imams to take every word of the Quran literally and to harbor a hatred for infidels and western society, then they're most likely going to internalize it and adopt the same views. Likewise, alienation and isolation too breeds extremism.
As for mental state, some people have voices (God) in their head, some people can't feel empathy, others are just plain sadistic. The Quran doesn't make them that way, but in their minds, it gives them divine sanction to indulge their barbaric impulses.
I never said the Quran (and by extension, Islam) has nothing to do with extremism, just that it doesn't, by itself, cause extremism. Problems mostly arise when negative social conditions (mass migration, ghettos, brainwashing) encourage it.
The Quran isn't the root cause of extremism, evil always finds a justification.
Then what about Muslims from Europe that so fiercely demand Sharia Law? It is the religion problem because Islam do not accept anything else than Islam. check how many ISIS recruits are from Europe, in many cases those guys are most fanatical.
The is no such thing as Christian Deash and I dobut that it will ever be. For Christian to join ISIS he/she would have to become muslim first.
What? You just contradicted yourself. Quran justify the actions but is not the cause of it? What the hell? So let me get you straight. If they kill homesexulas, infidels, opress women ect just as it was written in they holy manual it's not the reason of their actions? So why they do it? What possibly they could gain from killing homosexulas, infidels and so on? Quran is the cause of it, face it.
You call them Daesh instead of Muslims as if they are something other than Muslims. It's the same practice as to always call Germans Nazi instead of the German so you push the responsibility out of certain group to a closer unspecified one.
Very important point here. People our age don't realize that the Middle East wasn't always the way it was now. The 50's to 70's was something of a golden age for most middle eastern countries. Sure, countries like Syria and Egypt had authoritarian regimes, but they also had infrastructure, technology, thriving culture and secular government. Secular Arab pride was systematically snuffed out (whose at fault is debateable) and a lot of the poverty and religious fundamentalism we see now is the result.
Some incidents not mass slaughter all around the world
Surely those people thought the same
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Surely nowadys Europe with it's rich social security sytems is as bad as it was in 30' and forces them to become radicals...
But those Imams have to have to support their words don't they? It's fairly easy with Quran and it'snumerous quotes about Islam superiority.
So it makes them indulge to their sick urges with it's quotes.
Of course it is. All their ideology is based on that book, everyhting they do is in accordance to the very letter.
I don't see how any of this contradicts my main point.
Yes, we are in agreement that the book can be used as a tool of indoctrination, as can anything else.
Not really. The psychosis is still the primary driver of their violent behavior.
Actually, many bad things about Islam have a cultural, rather than religious basis. You don't see many Muslim Malays and Morrocans murdering infidels or veiling their women from head to foot. The Quran by itself is just a religious text that hasn't held up terribly well. Filtered through a reactionary culture and negative social conditions, it becomes a tool of oppression. Another good example of this principle in action is the Catholic fundamentalism in Spain. People joined the Carlists and Falange for a lot of the same reasons they join ISIS: to murder, rape and steal for a "noble" cause.
Social conditions and religion are one in Islam culture so seperating the two is simply grand overlook.
so you agree that Quran can be a source of extremism?
Then what about all those Muslim in Europe that demand Sharia or riot for some shit like in france few years ago? Suprisingly many psychosis within Islam faith. The sad fact is that Islam attracts psychos as well as make them en masse
I agree that there are less radical Muslims societies there but none of them gives minorities such rights as we gave them. So explain to me why we should give them anything when they clearly oppress other cultures ours included?
Yes, what does this have to do with the point being made? The societies in which Christianity is predominant have, by and large, become "better". The atrocious books they follow are as atrocious as ever.
That's not a contradiction. Justification for and causation of are not the same thing.
What do they get? A sense of domination and control, peer acceptance, cultural admiration. This is the part of the conversation where we can get into topics that actually influence their actions and mindset (tribalism, opposition to education, reverence of tradition, etc.), and where we can ask the more important question, "what causes them to interpret the Quran as they do, in a deplorable and damaging fashion?"
It's a separation of Muslims with more respectable beliefs from Islamic extremists. I say more respectable because no religious beliefs are worthy of respect in my opinion. It seems to me that if you did not separate the group "Nazis" from the rest of the German people then when you wish to refer to that specific group within that group, those which held detrimental beliefs, you would have no way of doing so. That's ludicrous to equate the two subgroups. Why not just label the terrorist groups religious terrorists, because that's what they are? Right, because equating Buddhist monks to Islamic terrorists is ludicrous.
EDIT: In addition I call then Daesh instead of Islamic extremists because they themselves despise the title. They are interchangeable except one is more slanderous, which I find rather fitting.
I find it hard to believe that secularism was present in any notable fashion and was snuffed out in a few decades. . .
It's also important to note that equating Muslim extremism with other abrahamic extremism at this point is a gross equivocation. Lets not pretend that there are not very serious problems plaguing the Islamic world that hardly apply to the other abrahamic religious groups around the world, and by extention pretty much every group that isn't Islamic. I'm sure that's not what you're saying, but noting it is not superfluous.
Yet Quran do both. It cause such behaviors and and justify them. In essence in this example it is very much the same here. It says it's ok to do such thing so it do both of those things at the same time.
Those things you enumerate are precisly what apply to religion as it is a vital part of their culture and it influence their very mindset. In what way you can possibily interpret let's say that line ....
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
hmmm I wonder if he's talking about inviting a infidel to a tea party? So yeah you just have to be a good muslim and follow the word of the prophet and there you go....
we're both in agreement here.
Nowadays yet, but in the history books it should be clearly stated that Nazi' were Germans.
Because the correct way would be Islamic terrorist groups, basically the followers of religion of peace makes for the 90% or more world terrorists
That's valid, albeit I'll stay with the Islamic State terminology
Believe it, modern Islamic terror rose from the ashes of pan-Arabism. Perhaps 'secular' was too strong of a word though. social conservatism had its role and most of the dictators of the time knew how to pander to the religious crowd. Still, most middle eastern countries (with a few notable exceptions) were quite cosmopolitan and modern. The seeds of future prospers had already been planted in the colonial era, but the 50's to 70's were largely a stable and productive time for the Arab world. Political instability and war largely ended this era of Arab history and the Arab Spring was its death rattle.
I was mostly referring to the "political and economic climate" part of Ramm's comment, rather than the "all Abrahamic religions part". I agree though that there are serious problems in Islam, particular Sharia law and cultural imperialism. Reactionary clerics have made it clear that they want religion to have a monopoly over culture, history and daily life. That should be enough to make anyone's bile rise. Still, it's worth noting that these problems are as much a product of culture as it is a project of religion. It would be a mistake to ignore how Islam manifests itself differently depending on the cultural norms of its adherents.
That's simply untrue, such reductionism is beneath you. Muslims like everyone else, have lives to attend to. They go to work, go to school, watch TV, spend quality time with loved ones. People with productive, meaningful lives aren't the target demographic for extremism. Like any gang of crooks, the poor, unemployed, isolated and angry are over-represented in the extremist community.
By itself, no. To a critical reader? Probably not. As a part of religious brainwashing or to the especially dim and impressionable person? Possibly.
You're taking me out of context here, I was referring to Muslims with pre-existing mental issues, not Muslims in general. As for what happened in France, I don't know. Could be a lot of things. It could be the inevitably bloody consequence of uncontrolled mass immigration without adequate social policies to back it up. It could be the fact that the global recession hit immigrant workers extra hard and led to mass unemployment. It could be France's draconian secularism laws biting it in the tush, it could be the right-wing rag you get your facts from shamelessly blowing things out of proportion. Or maybe, it's just pure religious fervor or reactionary baby rage on the part of those protestors. Hell, it's probably a combination. A Frenchman could probably tell you better than I.
None might be too strong a term, but partially agree on principle. Islamic cultural imperialism is a cancer, but it's as much a cultural phenomenon as it is a religious one.
That's neither her, nor there in our discussion about the Quran, but ok, I'll bite. I'm personally of the mind that the many shouldn't be condemned for the crimes of few or even the crimes of some. There's nothing to be gained by mistreating Muslims, other than a fleeting moment of twisted, vindictive satisfaction. I think the inverse is true as well and someday soon the Islamic clerics and leaders will need to come to grips with that, or it will be their undoing.
Kindly miss me with the biblical stuff and stop hiding behind quotes. I'm having a conversation with you, not Jesus or Elvis.
What point are you even trying to make here?
Yet in most of muslim societies the religion is everywhere, almost every single muslim country penalises apostasy by either prison or death. It defines the way they dress, eat and even think.
Do you really want me to provide nessesary quotes to prove my point? We both know that I will find plently of them. The problem is that most muslims are not critical readers since criticism of Quran is heresy. And the last part...again we both know what kind of people lives in middle east, hell even Europe or America too...
Then what about Uk? Sweden? Denmark? Germany? Nigeria? Everywhere where Muslims have sizeable numbers they cause problems. have you ever heard of...I don't know Hindus or Chinese causing such problems? And let me say that I get my informations from various sources from left to right to form my opinions and sadly more and more often the former hides the facts while the latter blown them out of proportions as you said. So it doesn't matter which side you are on both of them have an agenda and only by getting to look at the matter from all sides you can achive clear view. What's even more sad is the fact that those Muslims who come to Europe are so stunned by the freedom we have here that they don't know how to react. Their whole life have been dictated by one book and they are scared to break their chains. I don't like Muslims on principle but I also pity them, they remind me of North Koreans.
So you agree that religion takes a part in shaping their mentality? Also I noticed that you seem to divide culture and religion, While it would work for the other societies Muslims societies are virtually theocracies, so I don't think it nessesary to point that difference here.
Then I hope they will take their heads out of their asses soon. Because I have a nasty feeling that the sentence Muslims like to use in Europe, I quote ,,We are the new Jews!" might become very true in next few decades...
This is invalidated by my point with economics and political climates. Furthermore, as result of political climates and economics, history gives us a plethora of examples where Christians have gone on to commit mass slaughter supposedly in the name of God (the 1099 siege of Jerusalem, the Spanish Inquisition, and countless Catholic vs Protestant wars and much more)
Like I have said countless times, THEY DO NOT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY. You have instancees of people doing these deplorable acts and you immediately jump to fear mongering and count all Muslims as being potentially a part of this. If we applied that logic to the KKK, the US would therefore have to be consisted entirely of potential KKK members.
If you refer to the radicalised Muslims in the western world, those people - in theory - would probably have had pre-existing views or had been radicalised by ISIS propaganda.
Again, these are not the majority. How many times must I explain this to you?
You honestly think that a book alone will determine how a person acts and thinks? If that's the case then why don't all Muslims adhere to the same Islam, and why is it that we cannot just drop pamphlets onto Daesh territory that state "don't stone ya'lls gals"? Because it's the culture they've been raised in and the interpretation of Islam they have been indoctrinated into that determines how they view the world, not a lonesome book and their thought-provoked personal interpretation of it irrespective of the people around them. The spectrum of types of worshipers alone should be proof enough of that. A holy text is as benign as any other work of fiction such as Cinderella or The Witcher unless the impressionable are told otherwise.
They are related, sure. The differences in the interpretation and practice of Islam show that it is cultural setting that determines how Islam will be brought into the fold though, mostly.
Taking into account the historical context of Muhammad's reasoning this is a quote that can lie perfectly with the moral standards of today, even moreso than a good deal of the laws set down in the Old Testament which most Christians and Jews either exclude or rationalize out of their moral code. So, even if it didn't, there's little reason Muslims couldn't rationalize away that immoral stain like the other religions have.
Okay? It's not wrong even now to say that Nazis were German, or that terrorists are overwhelmingly from Islam. I'm not sure what point you think you're disagreeing with here.
I don't think they deserve the title of "State". It's repugnant.
Daesh specifically refers to Islamic terrorists (to my knowledge, I could be wrong). It's not as if refering to them as Daesh somehow detracts them from being of the Islamic faith. I really don't understand your line of reasoning here. Should Nazis be called German Supremacist Extremists or something? Just so that everyone is absolutely certain of the fact that they are German? Does "Nazi" not reflect that characteristic? I don't get it. (And, funnily, not all Nazis were/are German. Just look at the neo-nazi groups of today and at how Hitler looked at groups such as the British.)
Then why for example in Nigeria or other places Muslims seclect Christians and kill them while letting other Muslims go? What kind of economical ground you see here? Political climates? You mean rise of radical Muslims? then sure I agree. Also seriously you're going to drag out somehting that happended almost a millenium ago? People were primitive and limited them. Now they have all the information in the reach of their hands.
Awfuly lot of that minority I see...but is the MAJORITY that much better with their SHARIA4WORLD agenda?
Of course they have a pre-existing views dude, they are all gathered in Quran and Haddis( I don't know if I wrote that right)
Weird. I had always assumed strife was pretty much constant in the Middle East since the dissolution of the gunpowder empires.
Sweden:
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Uk
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France:
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And my personal favorite:
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Funny how numerous the evil minnority is...but you're right those is still minority. But history proved that what's matter is not a passive Majorty but an active minority...
Are you referring to all Muslims or just ISIS? Because it's ISIS not the Muslims around the world.
These places you speak of have very poor infastructure, a poor economy and as a result, politics dictated largely by religion. These places are not exempt or special.
Just because something happened in the past does not invalidate its implications today. The world does not simply progress forever on. The Middle East has regressed due to things like the Mujahideen, Western interference and political fuck ups.
The majority does not have that agenda you speak of. That was part of my point, but it appears to have passed you by. There are isolated instances in Europe of people wanting that, yes. But these are NOT THE MAJORITY - contrary to what Pegida would have you believe.
And so do radical Christians like with the WBC and KKK get their ideas from a holy text. Your point?
It's a ground and foundation of their culture. For you it may be a work of fiction but for a lot of them it is somehting to die for...It seems that you don't understand that.
True but let's don't forget that Saudi Arabia's interpretation which is borderline ISIS hold a great value since the Court of Mecca is the closest thing to the universal Muslim court.
Why did you bring other religions into the discussion? They irrelevant to it. Also what moral standards are you talking about? Because beheading people just because they belive in something else is pretty amoral to me...
Actually there's a lot of reason Muslims don't rationalize it, first and foremost the very structure of the religion that is basically anti-change and clearly states to kill everyone who dares to critisize it...
My point is to not create a misty terms like Daesh. If you didn't know about the subject yet TV would say Daesh did that or that never once metioning that they're muslims it would be used to bleach the stuff Muslims did. Just like the example I gave you with Nazi. You often hear about Nazi concentration camps but more rarely about German concentration camps. It's a way to more a responsibility from Germans to closer unspecified Nazi.
And for that, what would you propose? Trumpian mass deportations?