What is your opinion of gender neutral restrooms?
Personally, I am not in favor of it. And it's not necessarily due to religious reasons, but rather it has to do with having an interest in ensuring the safety of our children.
I do not think that it's a good idea for grown men, to be allowed to go into public ladies restroom, where little girls are also go in and do their business. Personally I think that it is a very dangerous thing to do, as it can give sexual predators greater access to more victims.
I realize of course that before in this whole issue came up, that people were still preying upon children in bathrooms, unfortunately. But the way I see it: Why give them even greater access to potential victims?
And yes, there are sexual predators in both the straight, and homosexual community. There are sadly, sexual predators at every level of society, in every single country.
Plus, I don't know of what human being, male or female, who wants someone of the opposite sex will walk in on them, while they're doing their business.
You see this is one of the things that Republicans were so afraid of, when gay marriage became legalized. And honestly, I understand their concerns, and agree with them. Because when you change the definition of a institution, that has been around for thousands and thousands of years, then where do you draw the line at?
In short, I am not in favor of this law of gender neutral restrooms.
Edit: Since this is a controversial subject, I ask that things please keep things civil and respectful in our replies. I have put some work into this thread, and I don't want to see that work undone.
Thank you!
Comments
To be honest, I don't feel comfortable with it. However I just won't use them then. If other people are fine with it, then whatever.
As long as there's a stall and I can take a piss in it I don't really care. "Oh no protect the children!11!!1", they'll learn that stuff soon anyway, keeping them sheltered won't do anything. Sexual predators can prey on victims anywhere, alleys, streets in the night, public restrooms aren't an exception really. The whole point for gender neutral bathrooms is to give a better place for transgenders to do their business without being harassed.
it's not about Sheltering them, it's just about making reasonable decisions, in order to help to protect them from unnecessary risk.
In countries/places with gender neutral bathrooms there is no increased sexual abuse though.
The whole concept sounds very open to exploitation, but whatever, as a general rule I avoid all public restrooms; so I suppose it doesn't matter to me. I don't really like the path this puts society on, though. Normalising gender dysphoria is a slippery slope, and one without end. I'm not sure I like the idea that, if a man feels like he is a women, he's therefore entitled to use female facilities? (And vice versa, of course).
It also seems strange to me having a restroom for "all genders." I mean, there's only two... despite how controversial that statement somehow is.
But as I said, it's not something that would impact me, so I suppose I shouldn't let it bother me. Which, prior to this thread, I haven't. :P
What about intersex people? People born with both male and female body parts?
They undeniably exist.
So are people with both penises and vaginas male? Or female?
What about people who have both male and female cell linings? Are they male or female?
Known as Chimerae.
Chimerae
"A genetic chimerism or chimera (also spelled chimaera) is a single organism composed of cells from different zygotes. This can result in male and female organs, two blood types, or subtle variations in form"
They undeniably exist, but not to such high proportions to justify exclusive restrooms, or other things of that nature. After all, intersex people are about 1 in 2000, as opposed to near enough 1 in 2 for the ratios of men and women.
That is a question, posed to the wrong person, and totally irrelevant to everything I said. Because a person with male and female genitalia would be justified in identifying as both genders. In that instance, it wouldn't be about identification or feeling. There would be a physical basis, not just a mental one to whichever they went with.
What Dillon said.
Intersex is a physical disorder, and there are thousands out there, we simply can't cater to every living being. Keep it at man and woman...you'll also find most of these people have undergone surgery anyway, or have 'chosen' a gender they'd like to stick with in physical appearance. It would be silly to start building designated Intersex toilets around the world. Money is better off spent in other places.
I dont like the idea, mens bathrooms always stink and have piss allover the floor. It must be truly awful for people when they cant decide which one to use for fear of backlash though, theres no shame in using the disabled I guess, even though its not ideal for them.
Men dont want women in there bathrooms as much if not more the other way round, I dont get the child abuse thing because young children should be accompanied to the toilet in my opinion and they should be watched and made to behave themselves.
I don't know.
Yeah another point of gender neutral bathrooms is that parents/guardians wouldn't be embarassed to accompany their young kids to the bathroom, so the pedofiles or sexual predators as the OP put it should only be a problem if the parents suck.
I think they are stupid. The idea just breathes Tumblr. Sexual predation is real, and people like to feel comfortable hanging a shit, sorry but it's true. I'm not personally worried about it, but for children and women probably not a great idea. People need to experience the real world.
If you're trans, it's really easy, look down and see what you have. Male parts, go to mens, and vice versa. If people judge you, don't be a pussy and whine about it on social media, flick it away like the strong, independent individual you always say you are, and move on. Sorry but that last bit had to be added. We can't cater for every single persons preference/disability/etc on this planet. Male and female is really quite simple. I know other will think otherwise, but hey, my opinion.
Right, but you expressly took issue with saying 'all genders' not two. I was pointing out that saying all genders makes more sense when intersex people exist.
No, it's relevant to you saying 'there's only two genders'.
I'm not saying we should start having a bathroom just for intersex people, no idea how you got that from what I said. I'm saying if you're having gender neutral bathrooms, you don't lose anything by saying 'all genders' rather than 'two genders', and the former does include more people whether people like that or not, whether its a disorder or not.
it's a response to him saying
You lose nothing by saying 'all genders' rather than 'both genders' and it's a silly thing to take issue with.
Again, in places with gender neutral bathrooms there isn't any evidence of increased sexual predation. People cited (unevidenced) safety concerns when the move was made to get rid of 'coloured' bathrooms and white bathrooms, don't be irrational and do some actual research.
I think this is a bit short sighted when trans people are often verbally or physically assaulted in bathrooms. Saying they're being 'pussies' for standing up for themselves on social media, when doing so in person could endanger their lives, is a bit weak.
Why would parents be embarrassed? Mums take the kid to the girls dads take them to the boys its not like little boys need urinals and little girls need sanitary bins
What about when a dad is with his daughter and she needs the bathroom? He might feel embarrassed then. Not both parents are always around. Same issue with same sex couples and single parents.
Also no-one 'needs' urinals :P
I really don't know, maybe when there's just the dad and the daughter and vice versa? And even then parents shouldn't be embarassed, people should understand that they're just leading their kids to the bathroom. And yet they still are.
Well im a woman and I used to go clubbing alot there is always a queue for the womens and rarely one for the mens, I would go in the mens every now and then and those guys would look freaked like some wild beast with a taste for man blood had come to kill them all, they would hug the urinals tightly , because I saw obviously the there fot a sausage show, some guys literally ran away. Girls didn't act like that when guys went in the womens.
But far as I understand it, intersex people aren't even the primary intended for gender neutral bathrooms. (Naturally, since as I said, they are an extremely minority group). So the phrase "all genders" is clearly not used with them in mind. And even if someone truly did possess the requisites of both genders, I'm not entirely convinced that therefore makes them a whole new one entirely.
Well, I'm not a doctor or a biologist, so I can't properly diagnose which gender intersex people would technically fall into. However, they are not the intended demographic of gender neutral bathrooms - nor were they what I had in mind when writing my original comment. I'm against people just 'picking' their gender on a mental basis, but not on a physical basis.
And there are only two genders. Male and female. Just because there is a (very, very rare) phenomena, in which someone is born with physical characteristics of both genders does not change that. It might, if it weren't so rare, I'll grant that much, but it is rare.
I'd love to see some evidence that this risk exists.
Speaking from experience girls tend to squeel if a guy walks into a female restroom, better than being slapped I guess.
Thats what I meant women take sons to womens dads take girls to mens, it never did me any harm, at least I dont think so.
Well, everyone is intended for them, and it certainly makes life easier for Intersex people.
There is a medical basis for this though. In the womb the brain can get flushed with different hormones to the body. This is a real occurance. And so the brain may develop as that of a female, while the body does that of a male.
Why does it being rare matter? You made an absolute statement that there are only two genders. This is false because sometimes there aren't (and there are millions of intersex/chimeric people), whether you like it or not.
True, but they are like 0.1% of the world's population, and that can't be overlooked.
Well, it all gets a bit spotty. And often the people preaching about male and female brains, are the same people yelling about how gender is a social construct. But I digress. The fact is, this entire thing is made unnecessarily complicated. If you have a penis, you're male, if you have a vagina, you're female. In the incredibly unlikely occurrence you happen to find yourself with both, I'll leave that to the experts to classify. And that's about the extent of it... or so it should be.
It matters because this is a thread about gender neutral bathrooms, and you're using a group that represent 0.1% of the population as a reason for it. I don't think that's particularly sound logic. And as I already said, there are only two genders. The extremely rare occurrence of intersex / chimeric people does not dispute that, like you think it does. Having both male and female genitalia doesn't make you a magical, third gender. It just means you have both male and female genitalia (which are the two genders).
The percentage does not matter at all, the only thing that matters is that it is a real thing and you can't just ignore it because it's very rare. 0.1% (which is a statistic you pulled out of your ass) is still a very large number compared to the worlds population, the chances of you meeting someone like this isn't as slim as you think. My friend has gender dysphoria, he refuses to go to male bathrooms, because he identifies as a female, there are barely any neutral bathrooms here and he gets bullied for it, oh but who cares, he's in the minority.
Oh yes, the 'what about the children' line. No, it doesn't give predators more access. If they're going to prey on little girls and boys, I don't think a sign is going to stop them, and I don't think transsexuals are any more likely that cisgendered people to be pedophiles.
Gender divided bathrooms haven't been around for thousands of years. Most people shat in fields or a designated hole. People commonly used to defecate on the floor in Versailles.
Also,
On the other hand, these are two different people of two different genders.
Feel free to bleach your eyes now.
Being assaulted is far worse than what I meant. More, being 'judged' and making it out worse than it really is. Of course I don't expect people being assaulted to just 'man up' in the sense. You've taken me a bit out of context but thanks for your input.
As for predation, stats don't matter to me, it's still there so an increase or decrease is kind of irrelevant. The fact is it's still there, and having gender neutral bathrooms just pushes the problem to the opposite sex regardless of an increase or decrease. To be fair, 'stats' and 'rape' don't go along too well in this discussion, it still affects an individual (whether it's 10,100 or 100000) and opening it up more furthers the problem. Can you please cite your evidence for this anyway...I'm simply curious.
This is ridiculous, I'm not ignoring anything, I'm just being practical, and pragmatic, unlike the both of you. If you can help either 50 people, or 500 you pick the 500, that's not cold-hearted.
Wrong.
And I feel bad for your friend. I hope he finds peace. However, that little jab is toothless, because it misunderstands everything I've said. Which is this: there are two genders. does that mean, there isn't a incredibly rare occurrence where someone is born with dual genitalia? no. Does that mean people who have gender dysphoria don't matter? No! I never said anything of the sort. At all.
All lives matter. But we shouldn't lose sight of the facts.
I don't see a single problem with gender neutral restrooms, they're just there for excretion and cleansing right? If people find it disgusting to have someone from the opposite gender in there with them, that's their problem and it's their choice to use the gender neutral restroom.
If you fear males going into female restrooms then why make this a discussion about gender neutral restrooms? The signs make these types of restrooms clear and it's the parent's choice whether to take their children into gender neutral restrooms or not but you're stating female restrooms, I agree people of their gender should use bathrooms of their gender(not going to debate about gender identity as that can be complex in some ways) but it's gender neutral restrooms so anyone has the right to use them.
Firstly, that's revolting that people would prey on innocent children in restrooms, I'd smack the soul out of those pedos but remember that it goes both ways, there are females who prey on children too but further discussing the safety of restrooms may lead to another discussion of "Should we put cameras in restrooms?" Which frankly I think would cause allot of privacy problems, I'm already hesitant to use a restroom when other individuals are using them already x.x
There are sexual predators of different color, sexuality, gender identity and belief but I'm fairly sure the majority of people in each of these categories are not pedophiles, some could argue it's rather rude and irrational to assume someone you don't know is a pedophile but at the same time it should be at least somewhat understandable that people would want to take extra measures to protect their children, bring pepper spray with you whenever you're going out with your kid and don't lose sight of them is what I'd advise but don't take my word for it as I'm not a parent and I don't know if people are legally allowed to have pepper spray.
Well, a good idea would be to close and lock the door when doing your business, so that people will know which stalls are vacant and which aren't, if it's the case of there not being any indication of whether a stall is being used or not then they should knock before entering, if it's the case of a broken lock, it's not always purposefully that people walk into stalls they thought were vacant.
What does gay marriage have to do with using gender neutral restrooms? They may be homosexual but pretty sure more pedophiles are heterosexual. I understand the concerns but are they as rational as they seem? If they're planning to make all restrooms gender neutral then I'm going to fully share in these concerns but if they're just going to make some restrooms gender neutral, specifically public ones, they're optional to use and people have the right to excrete, I do understand the concerns but whether gender neutral restrooms are bad is going to be subjective as every topic is.
In short, I understand the concerns but I'm not entirely sure of some variables, I haven't seen conflicting evidence that shows gender neutral restrooms are as dangerous for children as gender labeled ones are and considering a cause of this concern seems to be gay marriage, I feel it's rather irrational, it's not the restroom that's the problem, it's the people who use it(not all of course).
Just so I'm a bit clearer, I couldn't care less about mature, normal people (such as us) sharing bathrooms, it's more for the kids and stopping sickos having easier access to women and children, even men. Regardless of stats, gender neutral bathrooms DO make this easier. It's impossible to deny. Your stats don't include rape against the opposite sex, or rape against kids, just rape in general.
"What about Intersex people"
Or you could just help all of them by having a gender neutral bathroom. This argument is just ridiculous, all this started with the OP saying that sexual predators feast on children in gender neutral bathrooms and that was disproven pretty quickly. I don't get it why people have such a big problem with bathrooms for everyone, yes there are only two genders, but there are people who have problems going to specific gender bathrooms, it is really not that hard to have a restroom for them as well, and it double as an extra restroom for everyone. It's really a win-win.
Hahahahaha.
That's where it's different, I couldn't care less about women using mens just because they need to go...I mean come on, if people are worried about that there's an issue haha.
It's more the negative stuff I'm focusing on, like predation. Most adults are mature and couldn't give two shits if a chick walked into the men's and so on.
Thanks for the comment though gave me a laugh. Guys are pretty self conscious about their schlong
May I ask how reasonable it is to end or stop the production of gender mutual bathrooms out of the assumption/fear of child predators? I understand the concern but in terms of rationality, it makes me feel conflicted on my stance.
...
Some of the first pprn I saw had buck angel, that was a eye opener for 13 yr old me
Dillon I love you.
I love you to, buddy.
I didn't acknowledge it because I was satisfied with your evidence, if you knew I was wrong I didn't think you needed a kiss on the cheek from me as well. It seems like we're on semi same grounds so I guess there's no need for argument.
And may I ask the reliability of this data, how can they truly know how many intersex people exist around the world? There's no accurate percentage for anything as it would require testing every single individual on the planet, even then, a minority may be a minority but they're still humans that deserve the same rights as we do, such as being able to use the restroom.
You can't dictate whether people will pick 500 over 50 when not stating the variables for each group of people or not even explaining this type of situation that has what to do with gender neutral bathrooms exactly? With gender neutral bathrooms you save allot of people from excreting into their own clothes.
There are technically three biological sexes, male, female and intersex, you can count intersex as both male and female if you like but that just further proves it's another sex all together, as for genders, it's a much broader type of identification than many think, you can argue that there are only two sexes but it's still a scientific fact. You can argue that there are only two genders but there are over 50 that depend on more than just genitalia, you can argue but it's a psychological fact.
Using "but" lessens the meaning of saying "All lives matter", it's more saying all lives matter to certain degree/extent. One cannot lose sight of facts without knowing them first.