Oh boy. It just occurred to me that this is turning another debate, which is arguably a good thing, but this isn't really the thread for it. I'm gonn try to save time/space on this one:
1.Once again, I fail at rewording a quote to mean roughly the same thing in a different context. Plus, that would make her more of a psychopath than a sociopath, wouldn't it?
2.I was trying to point out that when he actually got a grip on her with intent to do damage after she sheathes her knife, as soon as he hits the floor after she punched him in the face, she straddles him and starts trying to angrily punch his face in. I know I might not be expressing things properly, but I was literally watching the fight while typing that.
3.I agree that she probably didn't want to actually kill him at first, but things escalated pretty quickly. However, I'm going to have to vehemently disagree with the idea of her killing him ruining her character. After all, not only would it have been a determinate climax, but it could technically be self-defense at that point, her being the one who started the fight notwithstanding.
Jane operated under the logic that if someone were to wrong her specifically, that justified wanting to kill them
No. She didn't. Sa… moreying 'I never killed someone who never wronged me in some way' (or something along those lines) is different than saying 'I murder everyone who wrongs me in some way'.
she started fighting back the first chance she got
Wrong. She first dodged Kenny's first punch and then guarded her knife. That's not attacking the first chance she gets.
She slashed his stomach with her knife when he tried it again, and actually chased after him when he regrouped.
She chased after him and said 'Just go' to which Kenny responds by 'I ain't going nowhere'.
I honestly don't think Jane's intentions were to get Kenny killed. Everything points that way.
My only point is making Jane be the one killing Kenny would lower the game's writting by screwing up her character and making the final conflict less interesting.
If you choose to save Carley, Lee runs to the window where Doug is getting pulled through (thinking Carley can protect herself now that she … morehas the ammo) and then Lee pulls Doug to safety away from the window.
That way, both Carley and Doug would be saved.
Wow, that was awesome! Could you possibly write one of these for Season going off of how you ended Season 2 in this post? It would be so enjoyable to read.
Jane operated under the logic that if someone were to wrong her specifically, that justified wanting to kill them
No. She didn't. Sa… moreying 'I never killed someone who never wronged me in some way' (or something along those lines) is different than saying 'I murder everyone who wrongs me in some way'.
she started fighting back the first chance she got
Wrong. She first dodged Kenny's first punch and then guarded her knife. That's not attacking the first chance she gets.
She slashed his stomach with her knife when he tried it again, and actually chased after him when he regrouped.
She chased after him and said 'Just go' to which Kenny responds by 'I ain't going nowhere'.
I honestly don't think Jane's intentions were to get Kenny killed. Everything points that way.
My only point is making Jane be the one killing Kenny would lower the game's writting by screwing up her character and making the final conflict less interesting.
Thing is, we wren't even talking about the usual Kenny vs Jane fight (it was involved but it wasn't the matter at hand). We were talking about how having Jane be the one killing Kenny would affect the Season's writting.
I'll respect Dan and I won't take our harmless argument any further in this thread (because it's not what it's meant for, I understand) but we weren't, in fact, discussing who was right or wrong in the Kenny vs Jane fight.
A change to Luke's death if you chose to cover him:
You and Bonnie try to cover him as you do now, but there would be more walkers. Eventually, both you and Bonnie run out of ammo, and basically can't do anything but watch helplessly as Luke tries to pull himself out. One of the remaining walkers gets close enough to Luke, which causes the ice to break and he falls through. After a moment of shock, Bonnie would jump in after Luke in an effort to help him. From there, the scene would play out how it does now, with you either breaking the ice or not. It'd make the player second guess their decision on the matter, and would make Bonnie's reaction towards the player a bit more justified.
My fourth entry will be spent really going deep into Arvo's sick big sister, Natasha! ...Which is why it'll be really short in actual content compared to my other entries. Look, I’ve stated before that I don’t really hate Arvo as much as everything else says I probably should and his sister Natasha is one of the characters I said I wanted more mileage out of to really benefit the story. However, that doesn’t exactly pan out as easily as I made it sound….
One of the mandates I set for myself when I first started contributing to this topic was that I would “be nice” and try to work within the limitations and context that the story as a broad, cohesive whole had established. For example, I haven’t been that secretive about my opinions regarding the portrayal and usage of Sarah and how, if I had things my way, I would’ve given her a slightly bigger role in the story in regards to her relationship with Clementine and Jane. However, because I at least agreed that the plot of No Going Back didn’t really necessitate (or perhaps work with) her character’s presence, I simply altered the climactic scenes within Amid the Ruins to give her character a better payoff for the story’s benefit. The same rule applied to Mr. Parker, Becca, and [eventually] Michelle, who all were easy for me to brainstorm and speculate about because their characters had enough of an establishment to be worked into the story’s broad strokes, especially in regards to Season 2. When I said Natasha would still play a relatively minor role in the story, what I meant was that not only is her character not the most charitable when it comes to adding to the story—there really isn’t that much space to give her any spotlight.
For the sake of reminding those who (understandably) didn’t give a shit about Arvo’s backstory, I’ll sum it up here: Arvo first appeared limping towards the observation deck to hide a bag in a recycle bin when he gets jumped by the already present Clementine (who simply wanted to talk to him) and Jane (who thought he looked like a suspicious threat rather an easy meal ticket). This bag was filled with painkillers and similar medication for Natasha, who Arvo references as having a disease that causes pain that causes her to cry, running the risk of attracting walkers, and angrily begs Jane not to rob him. Regardless of what Clementine decides to do, Arvo later returns at the end of the episode with his group in tow to get payback against the Howe’s Ski Cabin group just because Jane felt like being a dick (or whatever the female equivalent would be). Things escalate very quickly and the putting down of the recently turned Rebecca causes a firefight that injures Mike and Luke, as well as wiping out Arvo’s group mates. This includes his sister, who ends up turning and then getting put down by Clementine, giving Arvo a motivation to personallyhate her.
Said firefight is Natasha’s only scene, mind you; you can’t really expand on her character and give her more screentime without really messing with it. So let’s finally get into her character as is: Natasha is Arvo’s older sister and seemingly the voice of reason of the Russian Group. It goes unmentioned in the game proper, but Natasha suffers from sickle cell anemia, a disease that causes periodic episodes of pain through the blockage of tiny blood vessels in the chest and bones; this matches up with what Arvo mentioned before. This makes the meds Arvo was smuggling the key to her continued survival and thus, explains why Arvo was passively hostile enough to hold a grudge towards the group. However, despite having this sickness, Natasha still accompanies the group to ambush the Howe’s Ski Cabin group, causing some people to doubt the validity of the idea that she was sick and assume Arvo was just lying. I’d argue this is a sign of what type of person Natasha herself is: bold (refusing to just back down despite being almost as unimposing as Arvo), no-nonsense (yells at Kenny and Bonnie to put down their guns), vigilant (prowling around Bonnie like a damn lion), supportive (encouraging of her timid little brother), and sensible (smart enough to realize when things are going to end badly).
Honestly, the fact that I’ve seen several people refer to Arvo and his group as just bandits feels like a bit of a cheap hand wave to me. However, I won’t deny that it isn’t out of the realms of possibility: the exact nature of her connection to Buricko and Vitali(who both just scream obviously evil) is unknown, though I personally believe she is a member of their ‘gang,’ Arvo is just tagging along because of his familial connection to her, and Maud, her original game in the games’ files, could still be used as her street name. This headcanon was inspired by the fact that not only does Vitali claim that Arvo is dead to him when Kenny threatens to kill the boy, but Natasha comes off as a bit intimidating herself, despite barely having five lines. I even retroactively assume that it was Natasha’s idea to get payback in the first place: if Clementine tells Kenny and Luke that Arvo might be mad at them, they calmly tell him that they don’t think he’s alone, which causes Natasha to casually reveal herself first rather than last with her gun pointed at them. It was her medicine at stake in the first place and the fact that it and her little brother were threatened would no doubt anger her.
After the entire group reveals themselves, Natasha confirms with her brother that these are the people that robbed him, to which Buricko and Vitali laugh at the notion that he got jacked by a little girl. Things escalate so that everyone has the gun raised and pointed at the other group. If Clementine tries to convince Arvo to make his group lower their guns, he freezes with uncertainty for a second before Natasha encourages him to stand his ground. Soon, everyone begins arguing; tempers are hot, and tensions are high. Natasha recognizes how badly this will turn out and hysterically demands Kenny and Bonnie to lower their guns. By the way, no offense to the actress, but her unused English voice sounds like a psychotic strangled chicken. I can’t tell if she’s really angry at the moment or just straining through her pains, but she sounds terrifying! Then you know the rest:, Rebecca turns, Clementine gets her put down, Buricko starts the blast out of Amid the Ruins’s cliffhanger, and then the start of No Going Back has Arvo is busy trying to revive Natasha, who was apparently shot in the chest by Kenny.
So, working within the game’s context, you can’t really expand on her character and give her more screentime without really messing with it. Natasha function as Arvo’s motivation: she is the reason he gets held up by Jane and Clementine, she’s probably the reason he told to try and get payback on their group, and she’s the reason Arvo decides to allow himself to become a prisoner, which gets him abused by Kenny, freed by Mike, and then in a position where he ultimately shoots Clementine. Having her show up alongside the other Russians really hammers home what a false hope spot that was and how it was a bad idea to let Jane threaten Arvo in the first place. Her only scene has her die at the end; you can’t really alter that because it’s such a crucial plot development. I admit, one of the few times I felt truly sympathetic towards Arvo himself(for the right reasons) was when he was bound cold and helpless in the presence of people who robbed him, threatened him, wiped out his group, and then abused him, and the only thing he’s concerned about is the death of his sister.
Another problem with expanding on her character basically comes down to point of view: ignoring spotlight hogs like Jane and Kenny (which I do want to address at some point), Clementine is the primary focus of Season 2 and everything that happens in the story is seen through her eyes and involvement, as it should be. Natasha, on the other hand, is a supporting character to Arvo, the “villain” of the final two episodes who Clementine has an uneasy connection to that is based upon a single meeting beforehand. Developing Natasha would require spending time in flashbacks and cutaways outside of Clementine’s reach and having her spend any substantial amount of time with the non-English speaking Natasha would detract from that tense cliffhanger (where the not subtitled Russian helps with the uncertainty of the scene, which I would like to note that I still haven’t found a full translation). So unfortunately, this sounds like more the type of thing that would necessitate an OVA or an episodic DLC in the vein of 400 Days. So, unfortunately, all I can suggest is possibly giving Natasha more dialogue during the ambush to flesh her out a little more.
EDIT:For future reference/convenience.
I'd also want to get more mileage out of Mark, Mr. Parker, Chuck, Omid, Becca, Michelle, Nick, Alvin, Sarah, Sarita, Taavia, Reggie, Mike/Ralph, and Natasha. They all felt like there should have been more to them and the story could have benefited from their increased presence.
Though Mr. Parker, Chuck, Becca, Michelle, Alvin, Reggie, and Natasha would still play relatively minor roles, just with more spotlight and development than they got.
If you choose to save Carley, Lee runs to the window where Doug is getting pulled through (thinking Carley can protect herself now that she … morehas the ammo) and then Lee pulls Doug to safety away from the window.
That way, both Carley and Doug would be saved.
Congratulations. In a single post, you've remedied most of what left players so bitter over Season 2.
You have
kept Chista and Omid from being reduced to plot devices
gave meaning to Sarah's presence and Nick's death
kept Jane from overstaying her welcome
made Kenny more sympathetic and less antagonistic
eliminated the pointless plot device that was Arvo's gang
kept Bonnie from acting out of character
gave Carver the treatment he deserved (as a character)
gave 400 Days relevance
eliminated the redundant lake scene
Regarding Season 1, I have only this to say: I second what others have said about it having been better if Lilly and Mark came with us and Mark took the bullet for Ben. Lilly was an important character is Season 1. To remove the shooting scene entirely, robs her of her impact on the game and the subsequent moral conflict she forces on us.
Regarding Season 1, I have only this to say: I second what others have said about it having been better if Lilly and Mark came with us and Mark took the bullet for Ben. Lilly was an important character is Season 1. To remove the shooting scene entirely, robs her of her impact on the game and the subsequent moral conflict she forces on us.
You know what, given that they are supposedly old friends, I second this.
Congratulations. In a single post, you've remedied most of what left players so bitter over Season 2.
You have
* kept Chista and Omi… mored from being reduced to plot devices
* gave meaning to Sarah's presence and Nick's death
* kept Jane from overstaying her welcome
* made Kenny more sympathetic and less antagonistic
* eliminated the pointless plot device that was Arvo's gang
* kept Bonnie from acting out of character
* gave Carver the treatment he deserved (as a character)
* gave 400 Days relevance
* eliminated the redundant lake scene
Regarding Season 1, I have only this to say: I second what others have said about it having been better if Lilly and Mark came with us and Mark took the bullet for Ben. Lilly was an important character is Season 1. To remove the shooting scene entirely, robs her of her impact on the game and the subsequent moral conflict she forces on us.
You know what, given that they are supposedly old friends, I second this.
Mark and Lilly didn't know each other before the apocalypse. I don't recall this ever being mentioned? I know they supposedly worked at the same air base or something though
Regarding Season 1, I have only this to say: I second what others have said about it having been better if Lilly and Mark came with us and M… moreark took the bullet for Ben. Lilly was an important character is Season 1. To remove the shooting scene entirely, robs her of her impact on the game and the subsequent moral conflict she forces on us.
You know what, given that they are supposedly old friends, I second this.
You know what, given that they are supposedly old friends, I second this.
Mark and Lilly didn't know each other before the apocalyps… moree. I don't recall this ever being mentioned? I know they supposedly worked at the same air base or something though
Yeah i think Mark said something about "if you hadn't found me i'd be food by now" and Lilly later says the only reason your here is because you had food.
Congratulations. In a single post, you've remedied most of what left players so bitter over Season 2.
You have
* kept Chista and Omi… mored from being reduced to plot devices
* gave meaning to Sarah's presence and Nick's death
* kept Jane from overstaying her welcome
* made Kenny more sympathetic and less antagonistic
* eliminated the pointless plot device that was Arvo's gang
* kept Bonnie from acting out of character
* gave Carver the treatment he deserved (as a character)
* gave 400 Days relevance
* eliminated the redundant lake scene
Regarding Season 1, I have only this to say: I second what others have said about it having been better if Lilly and Mark came with us and Mark took the bullet for Ben. Lilly was an important character is Season 1. To remove the shooting scene entirely, robs her of her impact on the game and the subsequent moral conflict she forces on us.
The poster's idealised version of events cuts out the scene with Luke and Clementine or Bonnie falling through the ice. Most people feel this scene is where the writing in No Going Back began to go steeply downhill. The writers had to quickly kill off or write out Luke, Bonnie, and Mike in order to pit Kenny and Jane against each other for the final showdown. Luke's death and Bonnie and Mike's betrayal are generally considered plot devices to conjure tension out of thin air between Kenny and Jane. As you said, they hadn't been at odds with each other up until that episode and likely would not have been then had the group been kept in tact. Luke, Bonnie, and Mike (with AJ) could have outvoted Kenny, took the pickup, and returned to Howe's, giving Clem the option of going with them or staying with Kenny. Jane could have went with Luke's group or been presented to Clementine as a third option. This also would have pacified those who didn't want to look after the baby.
The writers had to quickly kill off or write out Luke, Bonnie, and Mike in order to pit Kenny and Jane against each other for the final showdown.
Now that you mention it, that stuff does seem a bit scripted. At the very least, I liked Luke's death because it tied together a part of what little character development he had. The Mike and Bonnie thing was a bit too rushed and out of left field, though.
But, alas, this is the problem whenever writers do a hero vs hero stor--pffft! (Sorry, I couldn't say that with a straight face.) I mean still kinda heroic asshole vs. rationally sociopathic neutral story.
Luke, Bonnie, and Mike (with AJ) could have outvoted Kenny, took the pickup, and returned to Howe's, giving Clem the option of going with them or staying with Kenny. Jane could have went with Luke's group or been presented to Clementine as a third option. This also would have pacified those who didn't want to look after the baby.
...And Arvo!
This actually sounds kinda nice. Though, it raises the question of why the hell they'd think taking AJ and determinately leaving Clementine behind was a good idea, given how the actual story worked out.
Also, I think having Jane be a third option would've been a better idea.
The poster's idealised version of events cuts out the scene with Luke and Clementine or Bonnie falling through the ice. Most people feel thi… mores scene is where the writing in No Going Back began to go steeply downhill. The writers had to quickly kill off or write out Luke, Bonnie, and Mike in order to pit Kenny and Jane against each other for the final showdown. Luke's death and Bonnie and Mike's betrayal are generally considered plot devices to conjure tension out of thin air between Kenny and Jane. As you said, they hadn't been at odds with each other up until that episode and likely would not have been then had the group been kept in tact. Luke, Bonnie, and Mike (with AJ) could have outvoted Kenny, took the pickup, and returned to Howe's, giving Clem the option of going with them or staying with Kenny. Jane could have went with Luke's group or been presented to Clementine as a third option. This also would have pacified those who didn't want to look after the baby.
I just added this to my 400 Days with the Cabin group thread, so I'll add it here too.
Nick/Pete- Admittedly, this is more fanservice for his fans than any real inspiration on my part. Carrying similar implications to Vince's story, we have Nick's mom around during some vague time frame. I guess for the sake of capturing his character, we can do a bit of time skipping like in Shel's scenario to show a strained but still loving relationship with Pete and how their travels put a bit of stress on him. Have some interaction between the two and his mom leading up to the appearance of the bitten woman at the Cabin. Whether you want to actually show how this goes down or not is up to personal opinion but I think having an aftermath of this entire event instead with Nick being noticeably withdrawn would act as a tease for his heart to heart in Season 2.
Reggie\Bonnie- What can I say, I ran out of characters. If we go with Reggie, we can focus on the days leading up to the Cabin group's escape from Howe's Hardware. Tonally a flip of Wyatt's story, Reggie's story would have a humorous presentation with numerous bursts of drama. The purpose of this is to demonstrate what a friendly yet selfless man he used to be so that when he gets introduced in Season 2, people would have a degraded comparison of just how much being left behind changed him. However, I'd actually kind of prefer we leave in Bonnie's story since I feel we kinda deserve to see an example of how often her relationships never seem to work out first hand. Otherwise, people would show a lot of spite due to the fact that you learn this in the same episode that has her turn on Clementine. Actually, I think having Reggie replace Taavia would work wonders, since it would basically end the dlc on a hope spot that the Cabin Group may be able to escape with his help.
Luke- Tbh, Luke is so at the forefront yet so basic that you have to give him an origin story. Like Russell's story, we have him hanging around Howe's Hardware alongside Nick and Bonnie. Have him show disapproval of how Carver is running things and perhaps attempt interfere with some of Carver's more extreme treatment towards the citizens. Have him get to know the other members of the community at sparse intervals and offscreen so that the ending in Nick and/or Reggie's stories helps to foreshadow his role as leader.
Rebecca/Alvin- A similar conflict to Bonnie's story: Rebecca has been touched by Carver after a tease of her job making speaker announcements(which could act to tie in with all the other stories with her tone changing as time goes on) and is beginning to notice the scarce signs of his villainy. Vaguely showcase why she was so vindictive about him that she would immediately try to take the gun from a pausing Nick and shoot a little girl herself. Maybe have George put in an appearance and hint that his abetting interference with Alvin's love life is making his days numbered.
Carlos- The same basic idea as Shel's story, he wants to make sure Sarah doesn't have to be exposed to how terrible the world is becoming. We could have an actual encounter with walkers to justify where these fears are coming from. Luke and/or Nick's family can make an appearance as well as maybe Reggie, since Sarah seemed to be slightly familiar with him.
It would tie in with what Bonnie said to Clementine outside the lake house. That conversation could still take place, only not be determinant since Luke doesn't die. The point would be that Clementine would not be forced to make her decision during a knock out drag out fight to the death. She could actually consider the path she wanted to take and ask herself if she wanted a community and a role in AJ's upbringing or not, how deep her ties to Kenny and investment in his emotional wellbeing were, or if she had become jaded like Jane and believed in self-preservation above all else. The existing scenario basically forces you to choose based on who you are less ok with seeing be murdered/murdering.
Oh! I just assumed they were your suggestions.
The writers had to quickly kill off or write out Luke, Bonnie, and Mike in order to pit… more Kenny and Jane against each other for the final showdown.
Now that you mention it, that stuff does seem a bit scripted. At the very least, I liked Luke's death because it tied together a part of what little character development he had. The Mike and Bonnie thing was a bit too rushed and out of left field, though.
But, alas, this is the problem whenever writers do a hero vs hero stor--pffft! (Sorry, I couldn't say that with a straight face.) I mean still kinda heroic asshole vs. rationally sociopathic neutral story.
Luke, Bonnie, and Mike (with AJ) could have outvoted Kenny, took the pickup, and returned to Howe's, giving Clem the option of going with them or staying with Kenny. Jane could have went with Luke's group or been presented to Clementine as a third option. This also would have pa… [view original content]
The point would be that Clementine would not be forced to make her decision during a knock out drag out fight to the death..The existing scenario basically forces you to choose based on who you are less ok with seeing be murdered/murdering.
Ah yes, true. That would definitely reinforce Jane and Bonnie's advice about Clementine learning to be her own person and make decision because she wants to make them.
Of course, my quip about the Howe's Trio was more joking about the fact that they'd take AJ, a baby who Kenny has formed a connection to, with them in the truck and determinately allow Clementine(and maybe Jane) to stay behind with a guy they wanted to get away from because of this stubbornness and anger issues.
Though, I'd still kinda want a more climactic...climax, tbh. Maybe we can go with my original impressions of Kenny being a mentor figure for most of the season only to ask Clementine to put him out of his misery.
It would tie in with what Bonnie said to Clementine outside the lake house. That conversation could still take place, only not be determinan… moret since Luke doesn't die. The point would be that Clementine would not be forced to make her decision during a knock out drag out fight to the death. She could actually consider the path she wanted to take and ask herself if she wanted a community and a role in AJ's upbringing or not, how deep her ties to Kenny and investment in his emotional wellbeing were, or if she had become jaded like Jane and believed in self-preservation above all else. The existing scenario basically forces you to choose based on who you are less ok with seeing be murdered/murdering.
And now, for the Milestone contribution, we have Numero Cinco: Michelle!
Michelle is one of the characters I would've like to have seen more of, Omid's accident notwithstanding. Debatably the most complex antagonist (if you don't count Jane/Kenny) and a One scene wonder, she felt like she could have been Season 2's Jolene: unapologeticly thuggish and yet not without a few sympathetic traits and a story to tell. By the way, I love how I'm apparently not alone in this train of thought.
I will start with a quick summary of her character: Michelle is a teenaged scavenger who wanders into the Pitstop bathroom that Clementine was getting washed up in. After discovering both her and the gun she left lying on the sink next to her backpack, Michelle used said gun to keep her complacent while she decides what she wants to take from Clementine's belongings. After expressing disbelief that someone with such poor supplies compared to her last "catches" could have lasted so long, stating her belief that you have to be mean in order to survive, and repeatedly demanding that Clementine surrender her hat before boredly dropping the issue, Michelle teases Clementine in a bullying fashion before being startled by Omid unsuccessfully sneaking up on her and accidentally shoots him in the heart, killing him. This causes her to freeze in horror, revealing that her bullying demeanor was just a cover for her true, inexperienced self, and profusely apologizes when Christa barges into the bathroom.
Her purpose in the story of Season 2 is act as the starter villain, kill off the established supporting character of Omid, and set the tone that the rest Season is supposed to operate by. Given how that turned out, I would have loved for her to pop up again at some point in the future, whether it be as an old enemy whose true, frightened self is known by Clementine, some decayed jobber used to establish how much more powerful and competent another villain or hero is, or an uneasy ally who has to deal with the repurcussions of what she did that day. Unfortunately, she happens to have the same problem that Natasha later would: after her brief appearance in the game's story, she supposedly dies. Even if being nonhesitantly gutshot by a grieviously vengeful Christa didn't kill her, then the resourceful Clementine making sure to shoot her in the head as a precaution would make sure her story came to an end: she is deader than dead! Having her be revealed to have survived this encounter so she could show up again later in the story would require her being left alive; you can't really do that without making a huge change or retcon so everyone won't go "Hey, wait a minute...what gives!"
Apparently, quite a few people speculated that she would return when A House Divided was announced. After all, Kenny could walk it off and he wasn't as young as he used to be. And ironically enough, Kenny also turned out to have survived the events of Season 1 where he seemingly sacrificed himself to help Lee rescue/spare Christa/Ben. However, even as someone who got into Season 2 after it was done, over with, and reproduced as an on disc collection, this would have been only mostly unlikely. After all, I always knew that the premise of Season 2 was that Clementine had to deal with the saving a group of refugees from the villainy of a monstrous tyrant and help them escape to safety. Not that it can't be done, but having this two-bit thug whose name she never technically learned return as an uneasy ally would, while certainly be a cool and dramatic little sideplot, kinda distract from the main story. However, she actually does have an advantage in her favor: in exclusion to her killing off Omid, she has no ties to any major plot points that would necessitate her staying dead. So, that gives a smorgasborg of freedom to use her character in a later part of the game that could benefit from her existence: so she would go from Flint Marko into a morally gray character.
While I would almost certainly give Season 2 as is a B- at the very least, it certainly showed signs of needing something that would keep the main character on her toes and help drive the story forward while also making things personal. Going into this season off the heels of Season 1 (and 400 Days!), I was thinking about how Lee had all these great relationships to experience: friendly ones like Carley and Doug, encouraging ones like Kenny and Christa, and then very antagonistic ones like Andy St. John and the Stranger. Clementine got a couple of great ones like Luke and Sarah, Rebecca and Jane, and Carver and Arvo that definitely scratched that itch, but it turned out with mixed results. I wanted someone who could mutually bust on Clementine and have it carry weight. Michelle slightly fits the Evil/Nebulous child/teen archetype(alongside Sarah and Becca) that would have made her a neat adversary for Clementine to deal with. And given that the two were "introduced" under very submissive circumstances, it could have blossomed into a very personal throw down: something I feel the game's story was severely lacking. She(and/or Becca, but I've talked about her in general on a previous date) seems like the type of person that would have bought Carver's "the strongest must keep the sheep in the pin" B.S., could function as a "rival" for Edgy!Clementine(which I can't say I'm a fan of, but still), made Carlos's role as a medic in the settlement relevant, and, at the same time, served to show the type of behavior that Carver is discouraging. To cry for the devil for a sec, I think she needed someone to be nice to her because it seemed relatively obvious that she was learned bad behavior but didn't really respond much to Clementine's kinder dialogue; at the same time, she seemed to react more nervously to her much crueler behavior. So, for the sake of this half of this entry, I'm gonna invoke the image of a school yard bully all grown up, as well as citizen/captive of Carver's camp with a similar development as Reggie, who will be portrayed as being afraid of Clementine if she recognizes who she is but still tries to fight against her as both a [dim] way to improve her standing with Carver and as payback for the scar on her stomach(as to why we'd see her with her shirt/hoodie up, don't ask).
Anyway, when Clementine decides to go confront her where the other women are working, the two get into a scuffle that also serves to explain how she survived: she has a stronger constitution than her thin frame suggests but is also a terrible fighter due to having stolen to keep herself going. Taavia, Russell, Rebecca, and Sarita intervene in an attempt to break up the fight, with Sarita just barely managing to keep Clementine from approaching Michelle again and Taavia using her gun to neutralize Michelle, though Russell chooses to just stand aside with Rebecca rather than doing anything to stop Michelle. Having taken hits to her stomach wound, she painfully begins to yell at Clementine that she isn't the only one who lost people or had a rough time on her own. Despite Taavia threatening to shoot her if she doesn't calm down and stop struggling, Michelle begins to reveal her own backstory....
She reveals herself to have been a part of Steve's group, claiming that she didn't like how merciless he was and that his leadership caused her dad to insist that this was for the best, which she gradually took to heart. After Russell secretly left the group, Steve nearly flipped out one day and he dared anyone else to try to leave if they think they can survive without his leadership. This eventually lead to an incident that caused her to be traumatized when her dad died because of Steve's recklessness. Deciding this was her sign that Russell had the right idea, she decided to run off with some of Steve's booty, went on the lam for an entire day and eventually ran into [spoiler 6], who decided to take care of her for a while since she was obviously shooken up by whatever happen. Unfortunately, they had a disagreement about how they should go about getting supplies, despite [spoiler 6] own decisions not being any better, and so, Michelle decided she prefered to be a solo "fisherman" so she can do things her way and have fun doing it. Eventually, she ended up finding Clementine at Gil's Pitstop, decided to play stickup for once, and ended up being even more traumatized by what happened with Omid. Despite being in no condition to survive, both physically and emotionally, Michelle was able to get herself moving when Christa and Clementine let her roughly ten minutes earlier assuming she was as good as dead. She nearly blacked out before even getting out of the area when she found by a passing truck....
When she woke up, her wound had been very crudely dressed and she was in the presence of some redneck who implied that he was hoping she would turn so he could "practice" on her. As far as she could tell, she had been out for a few days and the pain for merely breathing caused her to cry. Honestly surprised that she survived herself, Michelle played nice for several weeks just to get the guy to nurse her back to health, since she was in no shape to do much. Eventually, even that wasn't enough for her to tolerate and, despite having noticed that the guy was clearly crazy attached to her, she decided to sneak off. Unfortunately, she soon wished she was dead: he came after her less than a week later and she was forced for try and fight him off, nearly reopening her healing wound in the process. Having come too far to just give up, she pretended to give in and let him do whatever he wanted in exchange for a ride to the state border. When they finally got there, she angrily told him off for his psychotic behavior and, surprising at this point, he didn't seem too insulted, even looking a little sad to see her go.
Rather than push her luck by giving the nutcase a chance to change his mind, Michelle decided to begin her trek through South Carolina so she could get as far away from her past as possible. Eventually, after several close calls, she was lucky enough hitch a ride--unfortunately, it was [spoiler 6] of all people, who was happy to see her again despite how shaky their seperation was. Too hungry, thirsty, and exhausted to turn him down, Michelle swallowed her pride and once again sat in the presence of her mentor for a time. She intended to rest up and get some extra advice so she rob him blind when the time came, but things just continued to be difficult for her--he had actually stolen the car from a family of three who supposedly got themselves captured by bandits, meaning she had to be there for him and convince him that he did what he had to. As if that wasn't enough, it was getting harder for her to dodge his questions, her stomach wound would occassionaly ache, things began to add up, and soon her dirty deeds since she left were out in the open. Unable to deal with the hypocrisy of him being concerned for her decisions that she kept hidden when he clearly told her that he's done far worse on purpose, she left him in Laurens and made her way west just to avoid having to deal with him again.
After numerous run-ins with walkers, protective survivors, and the occassion bandit alike, she found a hope spot: an emissary for the Howe's Hardware community. She ended up being a citizen there, unfortunately she had a habit of getting into disagreements with the others and found herself in the pin on more than one occassion. Things finally found an air of consistency for her when the conditions had gotten tougher and Carver's leadership got more Darwinistic. The Cabin Group escaping meant that she got twice as much punishment as before and had to suffer the alienation of other citizens like Becca and Russell, in addition to having to deal with Carver and Troy's brutality. She just got to a point where she was so used to just allowing everyone to just do what they wanted that she just accepted it and become even more withdrawn. Not even having people like Mike or Jane around seemed to phase her much anymore. And then, barely two days ago, after Carver left on a retrieval trip alongside Troy, Bonnie, and Johnny a while back, he returned with the Cabin Group, Kenny, Sarita and Clementine in tow. Michelle knew she had a bad feeling when she heard about a girl in a baseball cap and had trouble sleeping the first night. And now, after all those months of suffering, she knows that Clementine and the girl from the bathroom stall are one in the same.
Ignorant of the fact that she's been crying for the past few minutes, Michelle claims that even after all that time of being angry, even after all her pain that made her numb, even after all her work to be stronger, she isn't able to get over how tough things are now. And, judging by how Clementine faired in the fight, she never could've beaten her and even if she did, she just doesn't have balls to get payback and outright kill her. After Clementine chooses whether Michelle deserves to just be miserable or she should take Nick's advice and forgive the poor girl, she is escorted away to the infirmary to have her stomach and battle wounds looked at. Her fate would be left up in the air, though Mike sadly implies that she was killed by either her injuries or by Carver or Troy assaulting her.
While having her be a nobody with a single person body count kinda shows how harsh and unexpected the world can be for survivors, I've come up with a few welding connections for her possible origin. I suggested before that she could be a former member of the gang Russell told Nate about. I also recently thought it would be ironic if she turned out to have connections to [shameless spoiler for contribution 6].
I realize that she and Becca seem to fill similar roles but they do have their differences: Becca is like Clementine except more bratty, more willing to go with choices that Clementine would feel morally wrong, and someone who wholeheartedly supports Carver's philosophy, while Michelle is just a former thief who also invokes Clementine, just as more of a bully, less murderous, and operates on the justification that you gotta be mean to keep goin' out there because she had to steal in order to get by. She also has a common ground with Jane, in addition to the fact that she does what she has to do to survive on her.
The reason these suggestions are usually so brief in scope are because I'm trying to work within the framework of what the final product implies could've or actually did happen. This entry on Michelle is actually a bit of a trend breaker. I plan on doing some more thorough suggestions in the future, but for right now, I'll just hit on admittedly detailed general thoughts. The next contribution will actually tie-in to this ....
EDIT:For future reference/convenience.
I'd also want to get more mileage out of Mark, Mr. Parker2, Chuck, Omid, Becca3, Michelle5, Nick, Alvin, Sarah1, Sarita, Taavia, Reggie, Mike/Ralph, and Natasha4. They all felt like there should have been more to them and the story could have benefited from their increased presence.
Though Mr. Parker2, Chuck, Becca3, Michelle5, Alvin, Reggie, and Natasha4 would still play relatively minor roles, just with more spotlight and development than they got.
No, it's not. Jane has no intentions of getting Kenny killed in the original game. She only seemed to have them later in the fight after being attacked many times.
i said this previously but her comment about "putting this crusty piece of shit out of his misery" makes me wonder if she DID have intentions to kill him and she said that before the fight got heated enough to the stage of trying to kill each other. There's also a likely possibility she wanted him dead in the hope Clem would shoot him if she saw how far he was going. But i know you'll disagree with me which is fine but that's what my view is
Which is essentially what happens anyway, so again:Why wasn't that outcome also in the game?
No, it's not. Jane has no intentions of… more getting Kenny killed in the original game. She only seemed to have them later in the fight after being attacked many times.
why couldn't they also have the option to let Jane kill Kenny and then alternatively kill/leave her?
Because they decided to not follow that path when writting Jane. That would make Jane a sociopath and a murderer which would ruin her whole character (Jane was never presented as someone who would kill without very strong reasons, that's explored even in the begining of the episode) and would also ruin the whole moral conflict in the last choice.
No, it's not. Jane has no intentions of getting Kenny killed in the original game. She only seemed to have them later in the fight after bei… moreng attacked many times.
i said this previously but her comment about "putting this crusty piece of shit out of his misery" makes me wonder if she DID have intentions to kill him and she said that before the fight got heated enough to the stage of trying to kill each other. There's also a likely possibility she wanted him dead in the hope Clem would shoot him if she saw how far he was going. But i know you'll disagree with me which is fine but that's what my view is
Ok remember this stuff: After killing Vitali Jane seems extremely sad and upset. 'I've never killed anyone who hadn't wronged me in some way. That didn't deserve it' (something along those lines). During the fight she sheathes her knife after being attacked by Kenny. When Kenny attacks her agains she demonstrates shock. After the fight excalates, she tells him to 'Just go'. After Kenny is shot, Jane shows no signs of satisfaction, instead, she seems rather shocked. When talking to Clem about what happened, she claims that she didn't want Kenny to die and that she didn't think he'd go that far.
Now, let's asume Jane wanted Kenny dead since the beginning.
Jane, a woman who seems to avoid killing, orchestrates a plan to kill a man. During the execution of her plan, she sheathes her knife after being attacked (nevermind that she's trying to kill him). After the fight excalates she tells the man she wants to kill to go away.
Something doesn't line up, does it?
Look, I understand that Jane may have wanted Kenny killed after the fight excalated and after being attacked many, many times, but she wanting him dead before the fight seems, to me, a too far fetched assumption. If she really wanted him dead and knew he'd react like he did then why did she sheathe her knife? If she expected Kenny to get violent, that's the last thing she'd do. If she really wanted the fight to go on to get Kenny killed why did she told him to go away? Why would she give him that opportunity?
The 'crusty piece of shit' commentary happens after the fight excalates and after Kenny refuses her second atempt to stop the fight. She may have lost her cool and started wanting to hurt Kenny too, I admit it.
I respect your assumption, although I heavily disagree with it. I value Jane's actions more than one line she said during the verge of the fight.
No, it's not. Jane has no intentions of getting Kenny killed in the original game. She only seemed to have them later in the fight after bei… moreng attacked many times.
i said this previously but her comment about "putting this crusty piece of shit out of his misery" makes me wonder if she DID have intentions to kill him and she said that before the fight got heated enough to the stage of trying to kill each other. There's also a likely possibility she wanted him dead in the hope Clem would shoot him if she saw how far he was going. But i know you'll disagree with me which is fine but that's what my view is
Ok remember this stuff: After killing Vitali Jane seems extremely sad and upset. 'I've never killed anyone who hadn't wronged me in some way… more. That didn't deserve it' (something along those lines). During the fight she sheathes her knife after being attacked by Kenny. When Kenny attacks her agains she demonstrates shock. After the fight excalates, she tells him to 'Just go'. After Kenny is shot, Jane shows no signs of satisfaction, instead, she seems rather shocked. When talking to Clem about what happened, she claims that she didn't want Kenny to die and that she didn't think he'd go that far.
Now, let's asume Jane wanted Kenny dead since the beginning.
Jane, a woman who seems to avoid killing, orchestrates a plan to kill a man. During the execution of her plan, she sheathes her knife after being attacked (nevermind that she's trying to kill him). After the fight excalates she tells the man she wants to kill to go away.
Something does… [view original content]
Did you ever consider that Jane did all that because it was in front of Clementine and didn't want her to think that she wanted to kill him? Possibility i'd say. But thanks for that, i still disagree though. A lot of what Jane says I'd question what is truth or bullshit to be fair. Sorry
Ok remember this stuff: After killing Vitali Jane seems extremely sad and upset. 'I've never killed anyone who hadn't wronged me in some way… more. That didn't deserve it' (something along those lines). During the fight she sheathes her knife after being attacked by Kenny. When Kenny attacks her agains she demonstrates shock. After the fight excalates, she tells him to 'Just go'. After Kenny is shot, Jane shows no signs of satisfaction, instead, she seems rather shocked. When talking to Clem about what happened, she claims that she didn't want Kenny to die and that she didn't think he'd go that far.
Now, let's asume Jane wanted Kenny dead since the beginning.
Jane, a woman who seems to avoid killing, orchestrates a plan to kill a man. During the execution of her plan, she sheathes her knife after being attacked (nevermind that she's trying to kill him). After the fight excalates she tells the man she wants to kill to go away.
Something does… [view original content]
Extra Kudos? Oh geez thanks BetterToSleep! You can see why now i feel ganged up on with comments like that. But hey i get it, you agree with him naturally so fucks to what i say lol. I know that wasn't your intention but still...
Did you ever consider that Jane did all that because it was in front of Clementine and didn't want her to think that she wanted to kill him?
Then why did she say that 'it's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery' deliberatly to Clem? If she really wanted to look like the saint there she'd never said that.
And yet again, if she really thought that Kenny was going to take the fight any further she would never sheathe her knife.
And finally, when she says 'Just go' they both don't even seem aware of Clem's presence.
Did you ever consider that Jane did all that because it was in front of Clementine and didn't want her to think that she wanted to kill him?… more Possibility i'd say. But thanks for that, i still disagree though. A lot of what Jane says I'd question what is truth or bullshit to be fair. Sorry
Extra Kudos? Oh geez thanks BetterToSleep! You can see why now i feel ganged up on with comments like that. But hey i get it, you agree with him naturally so fucks to what i say lol. I know that wasn't your intention but still...
Comments
Oh boy. It just occurred to me that this is turning another debate, which is arguably a good thing, but this isn't really the thread for it. I'm gonn try to save time/space on this one:
1.Once again, I fail at rewording a quote to mean roughly the same thing in a different context. Plus, that would make her more of a psychopath than a sociopath, wouldn't it?
2.I was trying to point out that when he actually got a grip on her with intent to do damage after she sheathes her knife, as soon as he hits the floor after she punched him in the face, she straddles him and starts trying to angrily punch his face in. I know I might not be expressing things properly, but I was literally watching the fight while typing that.
3.I agree that she probably didn't want to actually kill him at first, but things escalated pretty quickly. However, I'm going to have to vehemently disagree with the idea of her killing him ruining her character. After all, not only would it have been a determinate climax, but it could technically be self-defense at that point, her being the one who started the fight notwithstanding.
Kinda ruins the choice between the characters, in my opinion.
True.
But he still coulda ran to the window.
Wow, that was awesome! Could you possibly write one of these for Season going off of how you ended Season 2 in this post? It would be so enjoyable to read.
Please guys, lets not turn my thread into a jane/kenny argument again!!
I just miss Doug, man...
Come back to me bb
What Dan said. We have enough of those.
Wat
Oh F@(K!!! Triple post
Oh $#!+!!! Double post
I had a question and knew it would probably cause some ruckus but persevered anyway. Sorry about that, mate! (^_^)
bALLOON bOY
Thing is, we wren't even talking about the usual Kenny vs Jane fight (it was involved but it wasn't the matter at hand). We were talking about how having Jane be the one killing Kenny would affect the Season's writting.
I'll respect Dan and I won't take our harmless argument any further in this thread (because it's not what it's meant for, I understand) but we weren't, in fact, discussing who was right or wrong in the Kenny vs Jane fight.
Can't argue with ya there, man
Swapped Alvin and Rebecca with Omid and Christa. Instead of dying of childbirth she dies via someone's betrayal
Would have had Carver die in the shootout in episode 5.
Would have had the option of saving Vince or Nick
Would have had Pete made it to the lodge and die in a fight with Carver when his group invades. He dies in Nick's arms having a teary good bye.
A change to Luke's death if you chose to cover him:
You and Bonnie try to cover him as you do now, but there would be more walkers. Eventually, both you and Bonnie run out of ammo, and basically can't do anything but watch helplessly as Luke tries to pull himself out. One of the remaining walkers gets close enough to Luke, which causes the ice to break and he falls through. After a moment of shock, Bonnie would jump in after Luke in an effort to help him. From there, the scene would play out how it does now, with you either breaking the ice or not. It'd make the player second guess their decision on the matter, and would make Bonnie's reaction towards the player a bit more justified.
My fourth entry will be spent really going deep into Arvo's sick big sister, Natasha! ...Which is why it'll be really short in actual content compared to my other entries. Look, I’ve stated before that I don’t really hate Arvo as much as everything else says I probably should and his sister Natasha is one of the characters I said I wanted more mileage out of to really benefit the story. However, that doesn’t exactly pan out as easily as I made it sound….
One of the mandates I set for myself when I first started contributing to this topic was that I would “be nice” and try to work within the limitations and context that the story as a broad, cohesive whole had established. For example, I haven’t been that secretive about my opinions regarding the portrayal and usage of Sarah and how, if I had things my way, I would’ve given her a slightly bigger role in the story in regards to her relationship with Clementine and Jane. However, because I at least agreed that the plot of No Going Back didn’t really necessitate (or perhaps work with) her character’s presence, I simply altered the climactic scenes within Amid the Ruins to give her character a better payoff for the story’s benefit. The same rule applied to Mr. Parker, Becca, and [eventually] Michelle, who all were easy for me to brainstorm and speculate about because their characters had enough of an establishment to be worked into the story’s broad strokes, especially in regards to Season 2. When I said Natasha would still play a relatively minor role in the story, what I meant was that not only is her character not the most charitable when it comes to adding to the story—there really isn’t that much space to give her any spotlight.
For the sake of reminding those who (understandably) didn’t give a shit about Arvo’s backstory, I’ll sum it up here: Arvo first appeared limping towards the observation deck to hide a bag in a recycle bin when he gets jumped by the already present Clementine (who simply wanted to talk to him) and Jane (who thought he looked like a suspicious threat rather an easy meal ticket). This bag was filled with painkillers and similar medication for Natasha, who Arvo references as having a disease that causes pain that causes her to cry, running the risk of attracting walkers, and angrily begs Jane not to rob him. Regardless of what Clementine decides to do, Arvo later returns at the end of the episode with his group in tow to get payback against the Howe’s Ski Cabin group just because Jane felt like being a dick (or whatever the female equivalent would be). Things escalate very quickly and the putting down of the recently turned Rebecca causes a firefight that injures Mike and Luke, as well as wiping out Arvo’s group mates. This includes his sister, who ends up turning and then getting put down by Clementine, giving Arvo a motivation to personally hate her.
Said firefight is Natasha’s only scene, mind you; you can’t really expand on her character and give her more screentime without really messing with it. So let’s finally get into her character as is: Natasha is Arvo’s older sister and seemingly the voice of reason of the Russian Group. It goes unmentioned in the game proper, but Natasha suffers from sickle cell anemia, a disease that causes periodic episodes of pain through the blockage of tiny blood vessels in the chest and bones; this matches up with what Arvo mentioned before. This makes the meds Arvo was smuggling the key to her continued survival and thus, explains why Arvo was passively hostile enough to hold a grudge towards the group. However, despite having this sickness, Natasha still accompanies the group to ambush the Howe’s Ski Cabin group, causing some people to doubt the validity of the idea that she was sick and assume Arvo was just lying. I’d argue this is a sign of what type of person Natasha herself is: bold (refusing to just back down despite being almost as unimposing as Arvo), no-nonsense (yells at Kenny and Bonnie to put down their guns), vigilant (prowling around Bonnie like a damn lion), supportive (encouraging of her timid little brother), and sensible (smart enough to realize when things are going to end badly).
Honestly, the fact that I’ve seen several people refer to Arvo and his group as just bandits feels like a bit of a cheap hand wave to me. However, I won’t deny that it isn’t out of the realms of possibility: the exact nature of her connection to Buricko and Vitali(who both just scream obviously evil) is unknown, though I personally believe she is a member of their ‘gang,’ Arvo is just tagging along because of his familial connection to her, and Maud, her original game in the games’ files, could still be used as her street name. This headcanon was inspired by the fact that not only does Vitali claim that Arvo is dead to him when Kenny threatens to kill the boy, but Natasha comes off as a bit intimidating herself, despite barely having five lines. I even retroactively assume that it was Natasha’s idea to get payback in the first place: if Clementine tells Kenny and Luke that Arvo might be mad at them, they calmly tell him that they don’t think he’s alone, which causes Natasha to casually reveal herself first rather than last with her gun pointed at them. It was her medicine at stake in the first place and the fact that it and her little brother were threatened would no doubt anger her.
After the entire group reveals themselves, Natasha confirms with her brother that these are the people that robbed him, to which Buricko and Vitali laugh at the notion that he got jacked by a little girl. Things escalate so that everyone has the gun raised and pointed at the other group. If Clementine tries to convince Arvo to make his group lower their guns, he freezes with uncertainty for a second before Natasha encourages him to stand his ground. Soon, everyone begins arguing; tempers are hot, and tensions are high. Natasha recognizes how badly this will turn out and hysterically demands Kenny and Bonnie to lower their guns. By the way, no offense to the actress, but her unused English voice sounds like a psychotic strangled chicken. I can’t tell if she’s really angry at the moment or just straining through her pains, but she sounds terrifying! Then you know the rest:, Rebecca turns, Clementine gets her put down, Buricko starts the blast out of Amid the Ruins’s cliffhanger, and then the start of No Going Back has Arvo is busy trying to revive Natasha, who was apparently shot in the chest by Kenny.
So, working within the game’s context, you can’t really expand on her character and give her more screentime without really messing with it. Natasha function as Arvo’s motivation: she is the reason he gets held up by Jane and Clementine, she’s probably the reason he told to try and get payback on their group, and she’s the reason Arvo decides to allow himself to become a prisoner, which gets him abused by Kenny, freed by Mike, and then in a position where he ultimately shoots Clementine. Having her show up alongside the other Russians really hammers home what a false hope spot that was and how it was a bad idea to let Jane threaten Arvo in the first place. Her only scene has her die at the end; you can’t really alter that because it’s such a crucial plot development. I admit, one of the few times I felt truly sympathetic towards Arvo himself(for the right reasons) was when he was bound cold and helpless in the presence of people who robbed him, threatened him, wiped out his group, and then abused him, and the only thing he’s concerned about is the death of his sister.
Another problem with expanding on her character basically comes down to point of view: ignoring spotlight hogs like Jane and Kenny (which I do want to address at some point), Clementine is the primary focus of Season 2 and everything that happens in the story is seen through her eyes and involvement, as it should be. Natasha, on the other hand, is a supporting character to Arvo, the “villain” of the final two episodes who Clementine has an uneasy connection to that is based upon a single meeting beforehand. Developing Natasha would require spending time in flashbacks and cutaways outside of Clementine’s reach and having her spend any substantial amount of time with the non-English speaking Natasha would detract from that tense cliffhanger (where the not subtitled Russian helps with the uncertainty of the scene, which I would like to note that I still haven’t found a full translation). So unfortunately, this sounds like more the type of thing that would necessitate an OVA or an episodic DLC in the vein of 400 Days. So, unfortunately, all I can suggest is possibly giving Natasha more dialogue during the ambush to flesh her out a little more.
EDIT:For future reference/convenience.
I'd also want to get more mileage out of Mark, Mr. Parker, Chuck, Omid, Becca, Michelle, Nick, Alvin, Sarah, Sarita, Taavia, Reggie, Mike/Ralph, and Natasha. They all felt like there should have been more to them and the story could have benefited from their increased presence.
Though Mr. Parker, Chuck, Becca, Michelle, Alvin, Reggie, and Natasha would still play relatively minor roles, just with more spotlight and development than they got.
That's what I think I would've done if I were in Lee's place.
Congratulations. In a single post, you've remedied most of what left players so bitter over Season 2.
You have
kept Chista and Omid from being reduced to plot devices
gave meaning to Sarah's presence and Nick's death
kept Jane from overstaying her welcome
made Kenny more sympathetic and less antagonistic
eliminated the pointless plot device that was Arvo's gang
kept Bonnie from acting out of character
gave Carver the treatment he deserved (as a character)
gave 400 Days relevance
eliminated the redundant lake scene
Regarding Season 1, I have only this to say: I second what others have said about it having been better if Lilly and Mark came with us and Mark took the bullet for Ben. Lilly was an important character is Season 1. To remove the shooting scene entirely, robs her of her impact on the game and the subsequent moral conflict she forces on us.
You know what, given that they are supposedly old friends, I second this.
Mark and Lilly didn't know each other before the apocalypse. I don't recall this ever being mentioned? I know they supposedly worked at the same air base or something though
Oh, okay. I knew about the air base thing so I just assumed that counted as "old friends."
Yeah i think Mark said something about "if you hadn't found me i'd be food by now" and Lilly later says the only reason your here is because you had food.
Forgive me for not catching this but what did yo mean by this?
The poster's idealised version of events cuts out the scene with Luke and Clementine or Bonnie falling through the ice. Most people feel this scene is where the writing in No Going Back began to go steeply downhill. The writers had to quickly kill off or write out Luke, Bonnie, and Mike in order to pit Kenny and Jane against each other for the final showdown. Luke's death and Bonnie and Mike's betrayal are generally considered plot devices to conjure tension out of thin air between Kenny and Jane. As you said, they hadn't been at odds with each other up until that episode and likely would not have been then had the group been kept in tact. Luke, Bonnie, and Mike (with AJ) could have outvoted Kenny, took the pickup, and returned to Howe's, giving Clem the option of going with them or staying with Kenny. Jane could have went with Luke's group or been presented to Clementine as a third option. This also would have pacified those who didn't want to look after the baby.
Oh! I just assumed they were your suggestions.
Now that you mention it, that stuff does seem a bit scripted. At the very least, I liked Luke's death because it tied together a part of what little character development he had. The Mike and Bonnie thing was a bit too rushed and out of left field, though.
But, alas, this is the problem whenever writers do a hero vs hero stor--pffft! (Sorry, I couldn't say that with a straight face.) I mean still kinda heroic asshole vs. rationally sociopathic neutral story.
...And Arvo!
This actually sounds kinda nice. Though, it raises the question of why the hell they'd think taking AJ and determinately leaving Clementine behind was a good idea, given how the actual story worked out.
Also, I think having Jane be a third option would've been a better idea.
I just added this to my 400 Days with the Cabin group thread, so I'll add it here too.
Nick/Pete- Admittedly, this is more fanservice for his fans than any real inspiration on my part. Carrying similar implications to Vince's story, we have Nick's mom around during some vague time frame. I guess for the sake of capturing his character, we can do a bit of time skipping like in Shel's scenario to show a strained but still loving relationship with Pete and how their travels put a bit of stress on him. Have some interaction between the two and his mom leading up to the appearance of the bitten woman at the Cabin. Whether you want to actually show how this goes down or not is up to personal opinion but I think having an aftermath of this entire event instead with Nick being noticeably withdrawn would act as a tease for his heart to heart in Season 2.
Reggie\Bonnie- What can I say, I ran out of characters. If we go with Reggie, we can focus on the days leading up to the Cabin group's escape from Howe's Hardware. Tonally a flip of Wyatt's story, Reggie's story would have a humorous presentation with numerous bursts of drama. The purpose of this is to demonstrate what a friendly yet selfless man he used to be so that when he gets introduced in Season 2, people would have a degraded comparison of just how much being left behind changed him. However, I'd actually kind of prefer we leave in Bonnie's story since I feel we kinda deserve to see an example of how often her relationships never seem to work out first hand. Otherwise, people would show a lot of spite due to the fact that you learn this in the same episode that has her turn on Clementine. Actually, I think having Reggie replace Taavia would work wonders, since it would basically end the dlc on a hope spot that the Cabin Group may be able to escape with his help.
Luke- Tbh, Luke is so at the forefront yet so basic that you have to give him an origin story. Like Russell's story, we have him hanging around Howe's Hardware alongside Nick and Bonnie. Have him show disapproval of how Carver is running things and perhaps attempt interfere with some of Carver's more extreme treatment towards the citizens. Have him get to know the other members of the community at sparse intervals and offscreen so that the ending in Nick and/or Reggie's stories helps to foreshadow his role as leader.
Rebecca/Alvin- A similar conflict to Bonnie's story: Rebecca has been touched by Carver after a tease of her job making speaker announcements(which could act to tie in with all the other stories with her tone changing as time goes on) and is beginning to notice the scarce signs of his villainy. Vaguely showcase why she was so vindictive about him that she would immediately try to take the gun from a pausing Nick and shoot a little girl herself. Maybe have George put in an appearance and hint that his abetting interference with Alvin's love life is making his days numbered.
Carlos- The same basic idea as Shel's story, he wants to make sure Sarah doesn't have to be exposed to how terrible the world is becoming. We could have an actual encounter with walkers to justify where these fears are coming from. Luke and/or Nick's family can make an appearance as well as maybe Reggie, since Sarah seemed to be slightly familiar with him.
It would tie in with what Bonnie said to Clementine outside the lake house. That conversation could still take place, only not be determinant since Luke doesn't die. The point would be that Clementine would not be forced to make her decision during a knock out drag out fight to the death. She could actually consider the path she wanted to take and ask herself if she wanted a community and a role in AJ's upbringing or not, how deep her ties to Kenny and investment in his emotional wellbeing were, or if she had become jaded like Jane and believed in self-preservation above all else. The existing scenario basically forces you to choose based on who you are less ok with seeing be murdered/murdering.
Ah yes, true. That would definitely reinforce Jane and Bonnie's advice about Clementine learning to be her own person and make decision because she wants to make them.
Of course, my quip about the Howe's Trio was more joking about the fact that they'd take AJ, a baby who Kenny has formed a connection to, with them in the truck and determinately allow Clementine(and maybe Jane) to stay behind with a guy they wanted to get away from because of this stubbornness and anger issues.
Though, I'd still kinda want a more climactic...climax, tbh. Maybe we can go with my original impressions of Kenny being a mentor figure for most of the season only to ask Clementine to put him out of his misery.
And now, for the Milestone contribution, we have Numero Cinco: Michelle!
Michelle is one of the characters I would've like to have seen more of, Omid's accident notwithstanding. Debatably the most complex antagonist (if you don't count Jane/Kenny) and a One scene wonder, she felt like she could have been Season 2's Jolene: unapologeticly thuggish and yet not without a few sympathetic traits and a story to tell. By the way, I love how I'm apparently not alone in this train of thought.
I will start with a quick summary of her character: Michelle is a teenaged scavenger who wanders into the Pitstop bathroom that Clementine was getting washed up in. After discovering both her and the gun she left lying on the sink next to her backpack, Michelle used said gun to keep her complacent while she decides what she wants to take from Clementine's belongings. After expressing disbelief that someone with such poor supplies compared to her last "catches" could have lasted so long, stating her belief that you have to be mean in order to survive, and repeatedly demanding that Clementine surrender her hat before boredly dropping the issue, Michelle teases Clementine in a bullying fashion before being startled by Omid unsuccessfully sneaking up on her and accidentally shoots him in the heart, killing him. This causes her to freeze in horror, revealing that her bullying demeanor was just a cover for her true, inexperienced self, and profusely apologizes when Christa barges into the bathroom.
Her purpose in the story of Season 2 is act as the starter villain, kill off the established supporting character of Omid, and set the tone that the rest Season is supposed to operate by. Given how that turned out, I would have loved for her to pop up again at some point in the future, whether it be as an old enemy whose true, frightened self is known by Clementine, some decayed jobber used to establish how much more powerful and competent another villain or hero is, or an uneasy ally who has to deal with the repurcussions of what she did that day. Unfortunately, she happens to have the same problem that Natasha later would: after her brief appearance in the game's story, she supposedly dies. Even if being nonhesitantly gutshot by a grieviously vengeful Christa didn't kill her, then the resourceful Clementine making sure to shoot her in the head as a precaution would make sure her story came to an end: she is deader than dead! Having her be revealed to have survived this encounter so she could show up again later in the story would require her being left alive; you can't really do that without making a huge change or retcon so everyone won't go "Hey, wait a minute...what gives!"
Apparently, quite a few people speculated that she would return when A House Divided was announced. After all, Kenny could walk it off and he wasn't as young as he used to be. And ironically enough, Kenny also turned out to have survived the events of Season 1 where he seemingly sacrificed himself to help Lee rescue/spare Christa/Ben. However, even as someone who got into Season 2 after it was done, over with, and reproduced as an on disc collection, this would have been only mostly unlikely. After all, I always knew that the premise of Season 2 was that Clementine had to deal with the saving a group of refugees from the villainy of a monstrous tyrant and help them escape to safety. Not that it can't be done, but having this two-bit thug whose name she never technically learned return as an uneasy ally would, while certainly be a cool and dramatic little sideplot, kinda distract from the main story. However, she actually does have an advantage in her favor: in exclusion to her killing off Omid, she has no ties to any major plot points that would necessitate her staying dead. So, that gives a smorgasborg of freedom to use her character in a later part of the game that could benefit from her existence: so she would go from Flint Marko into a morally gray character.
While I would almost certainly give Season 2 as is a B- at the very least, it certainly showed signs of needing something that would keep the main character on her toes and help drive the story forward while also making things personal. Going into this season off the heels of Season 1 (and 400 Days!), I was thinking about how Lee had all these great relationships to experience: friendly ones like Carley and Doug, encouraging ones like Kenny and Christa, and then very antagonistic ones like Andy St. John and the Stranger. Clementine got a couple of great ones like Luke and Sarah, Rebecca and Jane, and Carver and Arvo that definitely scratched that itch, but it turned out with mixed results. I wanted someone who could mutually bust on Clementine and have it carry weight. Michelle slightly fits the Evil/Nebulous child/teen archetype(alongside Sarah and Becca) that would have made her a neat adversary for Clementine to deal with. And given that the two were "introduced" under very submissive circumstances, it could have blossomed into a very personal throw down: something I feel the game's story was severely lacking. She(and/or Becca, but I've talked about her in general on a previous date) seems like the type of person that would have bought Carver's "the strongest must keep the sheep in the pin" B.S., could function as a "rival" for Edgy!Clementine(which I can't say I'm a fan of, but still), made Carlos's role as a medic in the settlement relevant, and, at the same time, served to show the type of behavior that Carver is discouraging. To cry for the devil for a sec, I think she needed someone to be nice to her because it seemed relatively obvious that she was learned bad behavior but didn't really respond much to Clementine's kinder dialogue; at the same time, she seemed to react more nervously to her much crueler behavior. So, for the sake of this half of this entry, I'm gonna invoke the image of a school yard bully all grown up, as well as citizen/captive of Carver's camp with a similar development as Reggie, who will be portrayed as being afraid of Clementine if she recognizes who she is but still tries to fight against her as both a [dim] way to improve her standing with Carver and as payback for the scar on her stomach(as to why we'd see her with her shirt/hoodie up, don't ask).
Anyway, when Clementine decides to go confront her where the other women are working, the two get into a scuffle that also serves to explain how she survived: she has a stronger constitution than her thin frame suggests but is also a terrible fighter due to having stolen to keep herself going. Taavia, Russell, Rebecca, and Sarita intervene in an attempt to break up the fight, with Sarita just barely managing to keep Clementine from approaching Michelle again and Taavia using her gun to neutralize Michelle, though Russell chooses to just stand aside with Rebecca rather than doing anything to stop Michelle. Having taken hits to her stomach wound, she painfully begins to yell at Clementine that she isn't the only one who lost people or had a rough time on her own. Despite Taavia threatening to shoot her if she doesn't calm down and stop struggling, Michelle begins to reveal her own backstory....
She reveals herself to have been a part of Steve's group, claiming that she didn't like how merciless he was and that his leadership caused her dad to insist that this was for the best, which she gradually took to heart. After Russell secretly left the group, Steve nearly flipped out one day and he dared anyone else to try to leave if they think they can survive without his leadership. This eventually lead to an incident that caused her to be traumatized when her dad died because of Steve's recklessness. Deciding this was her sign that Russell had the right idea, she decided to run off with some of Steve's booty, went on the lam for an entire day and eventually ran into [spoiler 6], who decided to take care of her for a while since she was obviously shooken up by whatever happen. Unfortunately, they had a disagreement about how they should go about getting supplies, despite [spoiler 6] own decisions not being any better, and so, Michelle decided she prefered to be a solo "fisherman" so she can do things her way and have fun doing it. Eventually, she ended up finding Clementine at Gil's Pitstop, decided to play stickup for once, and ended up being even more traumatized by what happened with Omid. Despite being in no condition to survive, both physically and emotionally, Michelle was able to get herself moving when Christa and Clementine let her roughly ten minutes earlier assuming she was as good as dead. She nearly blacked out before even getting out of the area when she found by a passing truck....
When she woke up, her wound had been very crudely dressed and she was in the presence of some redneck who implied that he was hoping she would turn so he could "practice" on her. As far as she could tell, she had been out for a few days and the pain for merely breathing caused her to cry. Honestly surprised that she survived herself, Michelle played nice for several weeks just to get the guy to nurse her back to health, since she was in no shape to do much. Eventually, even that wasn't enough for her to tolerate and, despite having noticed that the guy was clearly crazy attached to her, she decided to sneak off. Unfortunately, she soon wished she was dead: he came after her less than a week later and she was forced for try and fight him off, nearly reopening her healing wound in the process. Having come too far to just give up, she pretended to give in and let him do whatever he wanted in exchange for a ride to the state border. When they finally got there, she angrily told him off for his psychotic behavior and, surprising at this point, he didn't seem too insulted, even looking a little sad to see her go.
Rather than push her luck by giving the nutcase a chance to change his mind, Michelle decided to begin her trek through South Carolina so she could get as far away from her past as possible. Eventually, after several close calls, she was lucky enough hitch a ride--unfortunately, it was [spoiler 6] of all people, who was happy to see her again despite how shaky their seperation was. Too hungry, thirsty, and exhausted to turn him down, Michelle swallowed her pride and once again sat in the presence of her mentor for a time. She intended to rest up and get some extra advice so she rob him blind when the time came, but things just continued to be difficult for her--he had actually stolen the car from a family of three who supposedly got themselves captured by bandits, meaning she had to be there for him and convince him that he did what he had to. As if that wasn't enough, it was getting harder for her to dodge his questions, her stomach wound would occassionaly ache, things began to add up, and soon her dirty deeds since she left were out in the open. Unable to deal with the hypocrisy of him being concerned for her decisions that she kept hidden when he clearly told her that he's done far worse on purpose, she left him in Laurens and made her way west just to avoid having to deal with him again.
After numerous run-ins with walkers, protective survivors, and the occassion bandit alike, she found a hope spot: an emissary for the Howe's Hardware community. She ended up being a citizen there, unfortunately she had a habit of getting into disagreements with the others and found herself in the pin on more than one occassion. Things finally found an air of consistency for her when the conditions had gotten tougher and Carver's leadership got more Darwinistic. The Cabin Group escaping meant that she got twice as much punishment as before and had to suffer the alienation of other citizens like Becca and Russell, in addition to having to deal with Carver and Troy's brutality. She just got to a point where she was so used to just allowing everyone to just do what they wanted that she just accepted it and become even more withdrawn. Not even having people like Mike or Jane around seemed to phase her much anymore. And then, barely two days ago, after Carver left on a retrieval trip alongside Troy, Bonnie, and Johnny a while back, he returned with the Cabin Group, Kenny, Sarita and Clementine in tow. Michelle knew she had a bad feeling when she heard about a girl in a baseball cap and had trouble sleeping the first night. And now, after all those months of suffering, she knows that Clementine and the girl from the bathroom stall are one in the same.
Ignorant of the fact that she's been crying for the past few minutes, Michelle claims that even after all that time of being angry, even after all her pain that made her numb, even after all her work to be stronger, she isn't able to get over how tough things are now. And, judging by how Clementine faired in the fight, she never could've beaten her and even if she did, she just doesn't have balls to get payback and outright kill her. After Clementine chooses whether Michelle deserves to just be miserable or she should take Nick's advice and forgive the poor girl, she is escorted away to the infirmary to have her stomach and battle wounds looked at. Her fate would be left up in the air, though Mike sadly implies that she was killed by either her injuries or by Carver or Troy assaulting her.
While having her be a nobody with a single person body count kinda shows how harsh and unexpected the world can be for survivors, I've come up with a few welding connections for her possible origin. I suggested before that she could be a former member of the gang Russell told Nate about. I also recently thought it would be ironic if she turned out to have connections to [shameless spoiler for contribution 6].
I realize that she and Becca seem to fill similar roles but they do have their differences: Becca is like Clementine except more bratty, more willing to go with choices that Clementine would feel morally wrong, and someone who wholeheartedly supports Carver's philosophy, while Michelle is just a former thief who also invokes Clementine, just as more of a bully, less murderous, and operates on the justification that you gotta be mean to keep goin' out there because she had to steal in order to get by. She also has a common ground with Jane, in addition to the fact that she does what she has to do to survive on her.
The reason these suggestions are usually so brief in scope are because I'm trying to work within the framework of what the final product implies could've or actually did happen. This entry on Michelle is actually a bit of a trend breaker. I plan on doing some more thorough suggestions in the future, but for right now, I'll just hit on admittedly detailed general thoughts. The next contribution will actually tie-in to this ....
EDIT:For future reference/convenience.
I'd also want to get more mileage out of Mark, Mr. Parker2, Chuck, Omid, Becca3, Michelle5, Nick, Alvin, Sarah1, Sarita, Taavia, Reggie, Mike/Ralph, and Natasha4. They all felt like there should have been more to them and the story could have benefited from their increased presence.
Though Mr. Parker2, Chuck, Becca3, Michelle5, Alvin, Reggie, and Natasha4 would still play relatively minor roles, just with more spotlight and development than they got.
i said this previously but her comment about "putting this crusty piece of shit out of his misery" makes me wonder if she DID have intentions to kill him and she said that before the fight got heated enough to the stage of trying to kill each other. There's also a likely possibility she wanted him dead in the hope Clem would shoot him if she saw how far he was going. But i know you'll disagree with me which is fine but that's what my view is
Sorry for bringing this post up again though. Probably shouldn't have to be honest
Ok remember this stuff: After killing Vitali Jane seems extremely sad and upset. 'I've never killed anyone who hadn't wronged me in some way. That didn't deserve it' (something along those lines). During the fight she sheathes her knife after being attacked by Kenny. When Kenny attacks her agains she demonstrates shock. After the fight excalates, she tells him to 'Just go'. After Kenny is shot, Jane shows no signs of satisfaction, instead, she seems rather shocked. When talking to Clem about what happened, she claims that she didn't want Kenny to die and that she didn't think he'd go that far.
Now, let's asume Jane wanted Kenny dead since the beginning.
Jane, a woman who seems to avoid killing, orchestrates a plan to kill a man. During the execution of her plan, she sheathes her knife after being attacked (nevermind that she's trying to kill him). After the fight excalates she tells the man she wants to kill to go away.
Something doesn't line up, does it?
Look, I understand that Jane may have wanted Kenny killed after the fight excalated and after being attacked many, many times, but she wanting him dead before the fight seems, to me, a too far fetched assumption. If she really wanted him dead and knew he'd react like he did then why did she sheathe her knife? If she expected Kenny to get violent, that's the last thing she'd do. If she really wanted the fight to go on to get Kenny killed why did she told him to go away? Why would she give him that opportunity?
The 'crusty piece of shit' commentary happens after the fight excalates and after Kenny refuses her second atempt to stop the fight. She may have lost her cool and started wanting to hurt Kenny too, I admit it.
I respect your assumption, although I heavily disagree with it. I value Jane's actions more than one line she said during the verge of the fight.
[extra Kudos]
Did you ever consider that Jane did all that because it was in front of Clementine and didn't want her to think that she wanted to kill him? Possibility i'd say. But thanks for that, i still disagree though. A lot of what Jane says I'd question what is truth or bullshit to be fair. Sorry
Extra Kudos? Oh geez thanks BetterToSleep! You can see why now i feel ganged up on with comments like that. But hey i get it, you agree with him naturally so fucks to what i say lol. I know that wasn't your intention but still...
Then why did she say that 'it's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery' deliberatly to Clem? If she really wanted to look like the saint there she'd never said that.
And yet again, if she really thought that Kenny was going to take the fight any further she would never sheathe her knife.
And finally, when she says 'Just go' they both don't even seem aware of Clem's presence.
Well, at least its on-topic--an actual contribution!
Dan, No! Not in your own thread!
Take it here!