Yeah, her story was sad enough, but I was kinda like 'meh...' cuz it wasn't all that important and it didn't really explain too much about h… moreer. It was just kinda something to give her a little more history. If you compare it to Ben's story in Season 1, hers is kinda nothing...
Two things:
1.Because I like what his death on the ice reinforces about his character: his selflessness. The guy who was so quick to attempt to go against his group's rules to save a potential infected, who went days with sustenance planning to rescue everyone from a psychopathic tyrant, and spent hours trying to save one of his friends before disappointing himself by putting it in someone else's hands, finally goes down insistent on doing what he always tried to do: protecting someone else, even at his own cost.
2.Because just getting bitten/eaten just wasn't a very neat way to go at that point in my opinion. The walkers had stopped being a major thing by that point and having him die because of one rather than because of a realistic environmental hazard that takes advantage of the setting would've been less exciting. That's one of the 36 or so reasons why Sarah's "canon" death is stupid.
(This is a lot longer than planned) While yeah, those are things I wanted to see for his death, I still think it could have been way better. In theory Luke's death in the ice might have worked but for me it was ruined by many logical missteps.
First, that they didn't look for a way around the frozen lake. I mean, it was a lake not a river, they could have found a way around and not have taken an unnecessary risk.
Two, that they more or less all walked in a line. Yeah they were spread out, but they retread the area around their own footsteps, putting more weight on a weakened spot.
Three, that Luke was allowed to be the last one and was unsupervised. He was the one with the injured leg. Someone should have been behind him in case he needed backup or walkers got too close.
Four, that when the ice began to crack, nobody thought for him to spread out on his stomach (distributing body weight across a larger surface area) and/or toss the gun to lighten his weight.
Five, and by far the biggest problem I have with his death, was Bonnie's idiotic way of trying to save him that recklessly put him, herself, and Clem in infinitely more danger. How does putting twice as much weight on cracked ice help anyone, especially when you're not spreading out on your stomach?
Six, another big issue, is the zombie being able to pull Luke down somehow.
Seven, Luke dying in the water when Bonnie survives just fine being in the water for the same amount of time. The only thing I can think of is that Luke wasted all his energy and air trying to escape, and for some reason Bonnie didn't.
I know we're expected to give some suspension of disbelief, but all of that added up for me, to the point that the death didn't feel natural and I could definitely feel the writer behind it. Compared with Ben's death, which although similar, seemed much more natural. I say similar because it's the same "group traverses path in the middle of episode 5 over a dangerous through-point, then it's weakened for the last character, this character is put in a life-threatening spot because of it, and another npc risks themselves to save them and only ends up putting all involved characters in danger". But with Ben, there was no reason for them to be too alert. It was straightforward: jump from the balcony to the next building, without anyone knowing it was weak. And when Ben fell, it was also straightforward: try to save Ben from his fall in the alleyway, without anyone knowing that walkers would hear and come after him. Therefore the turn of events felt natural because the characters themselves couldn't have predicted it.
With Luke it's different, because everyone already knows the danger of ice. Everybody would already know the last character is at a disadvantage, and that trying to save him would be more dangerous, because it's ice. So people acting irrationally makes it feel forced, in a way, because I can see the way the writers had to twist the logic and paranoia of the characters just to make that scenario a plausible one. Luke dying on ice itself isn't bad - just the way it was executed didn't sit right with me. But then again that episode was full of forced conflict.
Two things:
1.Because I like what his death on the ice reinforces about his character: his selflessness. The guy who was so quick to attemp… moret to go against his group's rules to save a potential infected, who went days with sustenance planning to rescue everyone from a psychopathic tyrant, and spent hours trying to save one of his friends before disappointing himself by putting it in someone else's hands, finally goes down insistent on doing what he always tried to do: protecting someone else, even at his own cost.
2.Because just getting bitten/eaten just wasn't a very neat way to go at that point in my opinion. The walkers had stopped being a major thing by that point and having him die because of one rather than because of a realistic environmental hazard that takes advantage of the setting would've been less exciting. That's one of the 36 or so reasons why Sarah's "canon" death is stupid.
(This is a lot longer than planned) While yeah, those are things I wanted to see for his death, I still think it could have been way better.… more In theory Luke's death in the ice might have worked but for me it was ruined by many logical missteps.
First, that they didn't look for a way around the frozen lake. I mean, it was a lake not a river, they could have found a way around and not have taken an unnecessary risk.
Two, that they more or less all walked in a line. Yeah they were spread out, but they retread the area around their own footsteps, putting more weight on a weakened spot.
Three, that Luke was allowed to be the last one and was unsupervised. He was the one with the injured leg. Someone should have been behind him in case he needed backup or walkers got too close.
Four, that when the ice began to crack, nobody thought for him to spread out on his stomach (distributing body weight across a larger surface area) and/or toss t… [view original content]
Well, I'm one of the folks that enjoyed 400 days for what it was and I thought it was interesting in playing different perspectives in the zombie apocalypse. I still believe those characters were going to get more to do in early drafts for S2.
Regarding the flashbacks, I think that's the writers way of responding to one of the big criticisms leveled at S2 and that was the fact that Clementine went through 16 months of character development that nobody saw or experienced.
Having two characters switching off a-la Tales from the Borderlands, mixed with Clementine's segments being apart of a different timeline al… morel-together, and couple all that with not having the same leisure a comedic game like TftB had to work with will be difficult for me and many others to get any level of investment out of because of it's so-called "emotionally focused narrative".
This is by far my biggest worry this season as well. I think I would have honestly preferred that Javier be the solo protagonist as opposed to dual protagonists.
The 'flashbacks' themselves, while a cool idea, also sound concerning to me. I think the idea behind them is that in the 'main' story, we're going to see a changed Clementine, and the focus of the flashbacks is to see what triggered those changes and why she pursues a different mind set than the Clementine we've seen in the prior two seasons. The problem with this to me is that it sounds like it… [view original content]
Allow me to use your unpopular opinion to segue into my own unpopular opinion: I actually liked the direction Kenny's character went in in S2. Or more specifically, his character arc. A lot of people criticize it as being a carbon copy of his S1 arc. But I personally don't see it.
Yes, if Kenny died in S1, it would have been a good redemption story. Maybe it would have been better. At least Kenny's death meant something, allowed him to come full circle.
But sometimes, life just doesn't work that way. Sometimes good actions just don't last, they don't get to define the person, or make up for past mistakes. Sometimes a person's good will is shattered as easily as it is built. I think it's more tragic to see him survive past an act of redemption, one where he could have died on relatively good terms, only to watch the good he accomplished slowly be undone and overtaken by the bad that proceeds it. It's a welcome subversion of the redemption plot, if you ask me. Not everyone always reaches redemption. Sometimes you can come very close, but ultimately fall victim to your vices (think TV Governor, after his two episodes where it seemed like he was on the path to change... only to ultimately fall victim to his brutality once more). Other times, you can actually achieve it... only for it to be robbed from you soon after, setting you back to square one.
In S1, he could have died on noble terms. But alas, he didn't, and instead ended up getting put down like a rabid dog after he slowly teetered on the line of sanity throughout the course of S2. He arguably died a worse person than he could have in S1. Alright, his death in S2 is technically determinant, but still...
I personally like that they didn't just end Kenny's story at "Kenny redeems himself," and instead continued it as a kind of deconstruction of the redemption story.
Everyone seems to like the good old "you either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain" quote, and if you ask me, Kenny's arc in S2 personifies that quote. You see the degradation of a man that could have found peace-- if not redemption-- in an earlier death continue to deteriorate mentally and emotionally, and spiral down towards the despair event horizon.
Of course, that's just me. I just never saw Kenny's role/arc in S2 that same way that most people seemed to. It sometimes makes me wonder if how I feel makes sense to anyone but myself.
While yeah, those are things I wanted to see for his death, I still think it could have been way better. In theory Luke's death in the ice might have worked but for me it was ruined by many logical missteps.
Everybody would already know the last character is at a disadvantage, and that trying to save him would be more dangerous, because it's ice. So people acting irrationally makes it feel forced, in a way, because I can see the way the writers had to twist the logic and paranoia of the characters just to make that scenario a plausible one. Luke dying on ice itself isn't bad - just the way it was executed didn't sit right with me. But then again that episode was full of forced conflict.
Okay, now that someone actually explained that in a logical way instead of just throwing around things like "Good riddance to Marty-Stu hungry for Clemmy-Cloo, idiot caused his own death, junkie ho was just thirsty 4 dat dick, Luke's death was lame, etc.," I can see why it's a problem. And with the Ben comparison included, yeah that does scream contrived.
First, that they didn't look for a way around the frozen lake. I mean, it was a lake not a river, they could have found a way around and not have taken an unnecessary risk.
Yeah, I have to admit that was probably Kenny and Arvo's fault: Kenny for being an impulsive (admittedly not as bad as usual) dick by volunteering Arvo to go first and Arvo for actually being confident enough to just go through with it. Granted, walkers were on their tail but they didn't know that at the time.
Three, that Luke was allowed to be the last one and was unsupervised. He was the one with the injured leg. Someone should have been behind him in case he needed backup or walkers got too close.
.* cough*. Jane .* cough*
Four, that when the ice began to crack, nobody thought for him to spread out on his stomach (distributing body weight across a larger surface area) and/or toss the gun to lighten his weight.
Uhhh...?
Six, another big issue, is the zombie being able to pull Luke down somehow.
Is there a problem with the physics behind that or something? Cause I thought it made for more tragic sendoff than the alternative.
Seven, Luke dying in the water when Bonnie survives just fine being in the water for the same amount of time. The only thing I can think of is that Luke wasted all his energy and air trying to escape, and for some reason Bonnie didn't.
To be fair, as far as I remember, Bonnie only ends up in the water if you cover Luke, who ends up banging on the ice from beneath before starting to drown right before you break through. The hole you make if you do is what saves Bonnie.
(This is a lot longer than planned) While yeah, those are things I wanted to see for his death, I still think it could have been way better.… more In theory Luke's death in the ice might have worked but for me it was ruined by many logical missteps.
First, that they didn't look for a way around the frozen lake. I mean, it was a lake not a river, they could have found a way around and not have taken an unnecessary risk.
Two, that they more or less all walked in a line. Yeah they were spread out, but they retread the area around their own footsteps, putting more weight on a weakened spot.
Three, that Luke was allowed to be the last one and was unsupervised. He was the one with the injured leg. Someone should have been behind him in case he needed backup or walkers got too close.
Four, that when the ice began to crack, nobody thought for him to spread out on his stomach (distributing body weight across a larger surface area) and/or toss t… [view original content]
I get that .but for me...he was just too over the top...I keep thinking about the show ..I know.not the same yet....If Rick had someone in his group that was like Kenny...what would happen...either kicked out..or ..look at the flowers Kenny....but then again...he did have someone in his group like him...Shane. Maybe I just let my dissatisfaction with aspects of season2 color Kenny. I did like him in S1...but I think I had settled on his s1 deaths being the better choices.
Allow me to use your unpopular opinion to segue into my own unpopular opinion: I actually liked the direction Kenny's character went in in S… more2. Or more specifically, his character arc. A lot of people criticize it as being a carbon copy of his S1 arc. But I personally don't see it.
Yes, if Kenny died in S1, it would have been a good redemption story. Maybe it would have been better. At least Kenny's death meant something, allowed him to come full circle.
But sometimes, life just doesn't work that way. Sometimes good actions just don't last, they don't get to define the person, or make up for past mistakes. Sometimes a person's good will is shattered as easily as it is built. I think it's more tragic to see him survive past an act of redemption, one where he could have died on relatively good terms, only to watch the good he accomplished slowly be undone and overtaken by the bad that proceeds it. It's a welcome subversion of the redemptio… [view original content]
Ya need to spread out your weight because if it is all concentrated on small points like your feet then it will be more likely to break, think like a pin poking through a tissue with the tip but will be unable to do so on its side.
As with the zombie thing, I just don't think the zombie is heavy enough to 1) sink that quickly, and 2) be able to pull down not only itself but the body of another person.
I know that the hole you make saves Bonnie, the point is she entered the water at the same time as Luke, and then escaped AFTER Luke had already drowned, meaning Bonnie was in the water technically even longer than Luke and still got out without much harm, when Luke could not do so for... some reason.
While yeah, those are things I wanted to see for his death, I still think it could have been way better. In theory Luke's death in the ice m… moreight have worked but for me it was ruined by many logical missteps.
Everybody would already know the last character is at a disadvantage, and that trying to save him would be more dangerous, because it's ice. So people acting irrationally makes it feel forced, in a way, because I can see the way the writers had to twist the logic and paranoia of the characters just to make that scenario a plausible one. Luke dying on ice itself isn't bad - just the way it was executed didn't sit right with me. But then again that episode was full of forced conflict.
Okay, now that someone actually explained that in a logical way instead of just throwing around things like "Good riddance to Marty-Stu hungry for Clemmy-Cloo, idiot caused his own death, junkie ho was just thirsty 4 dat dick, Luke's death was lame,… [view original content]
Most of the voice acting in season 2 was, quite frankly, pretty bad.
Very little tonal distinctions of the voices between a character's emotional nuances. Separating slight distinctions of a take such as agitated or furious both having almost the same vocal level, accentuation, punctuation, and all the other shit that makes VO's so important (admittedly Clementine, as much as I love her, was a big perpetrator of this.)
Certain lines that were read with little care of the art of pausing (Kenny's speech in the tent was so weird cause of how elongated some of the pauses were, whereas his recanting of his out of body experience, something I'd think would be hard to talk about, was oddly ran through like as if he was late to an AAR meeting.)
And on top of that, many others doing simply a "phoning it in" job (Mike always sounded bored, Carver being played by the very rarely serviceable Michael Madsen being constantly unexpressive and uninteresting, and Arvo doing such a phoned-in performance it's quite impressive.)
Most of the voice acting in season 2 was, quite frankly, pretty bad.
Yeeeah, I did notice that some characters have some pretty weird deliveries, particularly in the first few episodes. I was actually about make a post related to that type of thing myself.
Kenny has a determinate line during dinner at the Ski Lodge that cracks me up because of how sarcastic and dull it sounds. Which is funny, considering he almost certainly got some of the better lines.
And yes, Clementine in particular sounds so bored in half these scenes, even when she's not meant to be.
Most of the voice acting in season 2 was, quite frankly, pretty bad.
Very little tonal distinctions of the voices between a character's e… moremotional nuances. Separating slight distinctions of a take such as agitated or furious both having almost the same vocal level, accentuation, punctuation, and all the other shit that makes VO's so important (admittedly Clementine, as much as I love her, was a big perpetrator of this.)
Certain lines that were read with little care of the art of pausing (Kenny's speech in the tent was so weird cause of how elongated some of the pauses were, whereas his recanting of his out of body experience, something I'd think would be hard to talk about, was oddly ran through like as if he was late to an AAR meeting.)
And on top of that, many others doing simply a "phoning it in" job (Mike always sounded bored, Carver being played by the very rarely serviceable Michael Madsen being constantly unexpressive and uninteresting, and Arvo doing such a phoned-in performance it's quite impressive.)
So you are saying among other things that season two voice direction...was...directionless in parts. I mean we know Melissa and the others do great work...man if there ever would be a post mortem about Season two....that would be one hell of a read.
Most of the voice acting in season 2 was, quite frankly, pretty bad.
Yeeeah, I did notice that some characters have some pretty weir… mored deliveries, particularly in the first few episodes. I was actually about make a post related to that type of thing myself.
Kenny has a determinate line during dinner at the Ski Lodge that cracks me up because of how sarcastic and dull it sounds. Which is funny, considering he almost certainly got some of the better lines.
And yes, Clementine in particular sounds so bored in half these scenes, even when she's not meant to be.
Say what you will about how entertaining and distinctive each of the characters are in certain scenes, but I'd be lying if I said the dialogue wasn't always the best. Sarah, Carver, Jane, and Arvo in particular have lines that sound..."funny."
I liked all of the deaths given to characters pre-Carver's death in season 2. This includes: Omid, Pete, Nick's first death, Matthew, Walter, Reggie, and both Alvin deaths. Keep in mind Pete and Omid are among my favorite characters.
I liked all of the deaths given to characters pre-Carver's death in season 2. This includes: Omid, Pete, Nick's first death, Matthew, Walter, Reggie, and both Alvin deaths. Keep in mind Pete and Omid are among my favorite characters.
So you are saying among other things that season two voice direction...was...directionless in parts. I mean we know Melissa and the others do great work...man if there ever would be a post mortem about Season two....that would be one hell of a read.
Say what you will about her as an individual, but there's no denying that Jane actually added to Clementine's story and character while still managing to stand up on her own, love her or hate her. The whole "strong independent woman fights back against the pure evil oppressive man" undertones were a bit much, though.
I liked all of the deaths given to characters pre-Carver's death in season 2. This includes: Omid, Pete, Nick's first death, Matthew, Walter, Reggie, and both Alvin deaths. Keep in mind Pete and Omid are among my favorite characters.
So you are saying among other things that season two voice direction...was...directionless in parts.
Possibly. To be fair, the dialo… moregue wasn't always the graceful either, as I noted below.
man if there ever would be a post mortem about Season two....that would be one hell of a read.
A what now?
Say what you will about her as an individual, but there's no denying that Jane actually added to Clementine's story and character while stil… morel managing to stand up on her own, love her or hate her. The whole "strong independent woman fights back against the pure evil oppressive man" undertones were a bit much, though.
The whole "strong independent woman fights back against the pure evil oppressive man" undertones were a bit much, though.
You really do see her as a feminist symbol, don't you?
Oh jeeze....this again...why is it a woman that can survive and call people out for their b.s. are called feminist symbols...maybe they are just normal survivors...who happen to be women.
Say what you will about her as an individual, but there's no denying that Jane actually added to Clementine's story and character while stil… morel managing to stand up on her own, love her or hate her. The whole "strong independent woman fights back against the pure evil oppressive man" undertones were a bit much, though.
Well, as someone who first played Season 2 back in June, there's a lot of weird sentiments and undertones that I only noticed upon looking back at it now.
I always just called her Unintentionally Unsympathetic, a sociopath, and a Karma Houdini up until recently, where that list has been growing.
But come on, look back at some of the things she does and says throughout the Season and tell me you don't see that.
Oh jeeze....this again...why is it a woman that can survive and call people out for their b.s. are called feminist symbols...maybe they are just normal survivors...who happen to be women.
Well, as someone who first played Season 2 back in June, there's a lot of weird sentiments and undertones that I only noticed upon looking b… moreack at it now.
I always just called her Unintentionally Unsympathetic, a sociopath, and a Karma Houdini up until recently, where that list has been growing.
But come on, look back at some of the things she does and says throughout the Season and tell me you don't see that.
"Well shit--Everyday's a school day!" No, but seriously, thanks for that!
As with the zombie thing, I just don't think the zombie is heavy enough to 1) sink that quickly, and 2) be able to pull down not only itself but the body of another person.
Okay, I honestly didn't think about that.
I know that the hole you make saves Bonnie, the point is she entered the water at the same time as Luke, and then escaped AFTER Luke had already drowned, meaning Bonnie was in the water technically even longer than Luke and still got out without much harm, when Luke could not do so for... some reason.
I can think of a few flimsy excuses but honestly, the only thing I'm thinking about now is why Bonnie didn't push Luke's body towards the hole since she could swim.
Uhhh...?
Ya need to spread out your weight because if it is all concentrated on small points like your feet then it will be more… more likely to break, think like a pin poking through a tissue with the tip but will be unable to do so on its side.
As with the zombie thing, I just don't think the zombie is heavy enough to 1) sink that quickly, and 2) be able to pull down not only itself but the body of another person.
I know that the hole you make saves Bonnie, the point is she entered the water at the same time as Luke, and then escaped AFTER Luke had already drowned, meaning Bonnie was in the water technically even longer than Luke and still got out without much harm, when Luke could not do so for... some reason.
Reference to Michonne Miniseries, when Pete is about to start rambling on what the function of a boat's tiller lever is and Michonne stops him abruptly.
Reference to Michonne Miniseries, when Pete is about to start rambling on what the function of a boat's tiller lever is and Michonne stops him abruptly.
Comments
With or without the cut stuff?
Really, now?
Kenny's return destroyed a perfectly good redemption story for his character in s1 and wasted the good will he had earned.
Why is that, may I ask? Because I also think I would have preferred that type of death for Luke over what we got.
Well you are wrong.
Two things:
1.Because I like what his death on the ice reinforces about his character: his selflessness. The guy who was so quick to attempt to go against his group's rules to save a potential infected, who went days with sustenance planning to rescue everyone from a psychopathic tyrant, and spent hours trying to save one of his friends before disappointing himself by putting it in someone else's hands, finally goes down insistent on doing what he always tried to do: protecting someone else, even at his own cost.
2.Because just getting bitten/eaten just wasn't a very neat way to go at that point in my opinion. The walkers had stopped being a major thing by that point and having him die because of one rather than because of a realistic environmental hazard that takes advantage of the setting would've been less exciting. That's one of the 36 or so reasons why Sarah's "canon" death is stupid.
(This is a lot longer than planned) While yeah, those are things I wanted to see for his death, I still think it could have been way better. In theory Luke's death in the ice might have worked but for me it was ruined by many logical missteps.
First, that they didn't look for a way around the frozen lake. I mean, it was a lake not a river, they could have found a way around and not have taken an unnecessary risk.
Two, that they more or less all walked in a line. Yeah they were spread out, but they retread the area around their own footsteps, putting more weight on a weakened spot.
Three, that Luke was allowed to be the last one and was unsupervised. He was the one with the injured leg. Someone should have been behind him in case he needed backup or walkers got too close.
Four, that when the ice began to crack, nobody thought for him to spread out on his stomach (distributing body weight across a larger surface area) and/or toss the gun to lighten his weight.
Five, and by far the biggest problem I have with his death, was Bonnie's idiotic way of trying to save him that recklessly put him, herself, and Clem in infinitely more danger. How does putting twice as much weight on cracked ice help anyone, especially when you're not spreading out on your stomach?
Six, another big issue, is the zombie being able to pull Luke down somehow.
Seven, Luke dying in the water when Bonnie survives just fine being in the water for the same amount of time. The only thing I can think of is that Luke wasted all his energy and air trying to escape, and for some reason Bonnie didn't.
I know we're expected to give some suspension of disbelief, but all of that added up for me, to the point that the death didn't feel natural and I could definitely feel the writer behind it. Compared with Ben's death, which although similar, seemed much more natural. I say similar because it's the same "group traverses path in the middle of episode 5 over a dangerous through-point, then it's weakened for the last character, this character is put in a life-threatening spot because of it, and another npc risks themselves to save them and only ends up putting all involved characters in danger". But with Ben, there was no reason for them to be too alert. It was straightforward: jump from the balcony to the next building, without anyone knowing it was weak. And when Ben fell, it was also straightforward: try to save Ben from his fall in the alleyway, without anyone knowing that walkers would hear and come after him. Therefore the turn of events felt natural because the characters themselves couldn't have predicted it.
With Luke it's different, because everyone already knows the danger of ice. Everybody would already know the last character is at a disadvantage, and that trying to save him would be more dangerous, because it's ice. So people acting irrationally makes it feel forced, in a way, because I can see the way the writers had to twist the logic and paranoia of the characters just to make that scenario a plausible one. Luke dying on ice itself isn't bad - just the way it was executed didn't sit right with me. But then again that episode was full of forced conflict.
I know that @Lilacsbloom and @Deltino will gladly debate it for you!
I thought I read that it was settled that it was a lake.
Either way, still silly that they just kinda looked around, shrugged their shoulders and said "oop no way around guess we gotta risk our lives"
Doug > Carley
I kind of agree. Still love Kenny, though.
I didn't feel bad when I helped Kenny smash Larry's head, sure I had a bit of sympathy for Lilly, but I couldn't give two shits about Larry. Fuck him.
Well, I'm one of the folks that enjoyed 400 days for what it was and I thought it was interesting in playing different perspectives in the zombie apocalypse. I still believe those characters were going to get more to do in early drafts for S2.
Regarding the flashbacks, I think that's the writers way of responding to one of the big criticisms leveled at S2 and that was the fact that Clementine went through 16 months of character development that nobody saw or experienced.
Allow me to use your unpopular opinion to segue into my own unpopular opinion: I actually liked the direction Kenny's character went in in S2. Or more specifically, his character arc. A lot of people criticize it as being a carbon copy of his S1 arc. But I personally don't see it.
Yes, if Kenny died in S1, it would have been a good redemption story. Maybe it would have been better. At least Kenny's death meant something, allowed him to come full circle.
But sometimes, life just doesn't work that way. Sometimes good actions just don't last, they don't get to define the person, or make up for past mistakes. Sometimes a person's good will is shattered as easily as it is built. I think it's more tragic to see him survive past an act of redemption, one where he could have died on relatively good terms, only to watch the good he accomplished slowly be undone and overtaken by the bad that proceeds it. It's a welcome subversion of the redemption plot, if you ask me. Not everyone always reaches redemption. Sometimes you can come very close, but ultimately fall victim to your vices (think TV Governor, after his two episodes where it seemed like he was on the path to change... only to ultimately fall victim to his brutality once more). Other times, you can actually achieve it... only for it to be robbed from you soon after, setting you back to square one.
In S1, he could have died on noble terms. But alas, he didn't, and instead ended up getting put down like a rabid dog after he slowly teetered on the line of sanity throughout the course of S2. He arguably died a worse person than he could have in S1. Alright, his death in S2 is technically determinant, but still...
I personally like that they didn't just end Kenny's story at "Kenny redeems himself," and instead continued it as a kind of deconstruction of the redemption story.
Everyone seems to like the good old "you either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain" quote, and if you ask me, Kenny's arc in S2 personifies that quote. You see the degradation of a man that could have found peace-- if not redemption-- in an earlier death continue to deteriorate mentally and emotionally, and spiral down towards the despair event horizon.
Of course, that's just me. I just never saw Kenny's role/arc in S2 that same way that most people seemed to. It sometimes makes me wonder if how I feel makes sense to anyone but myself.
Okay, now that someone actually explained that in a logical way instead of just throwing around things like "Good riddance to Marty-Stu hungry for Clemmy-Cloo, idiot caused his own death, junkie ho was just thirsty 4 dat dick, Luke's death was lame, etc.," I can see why it's a problem. And with the Ben comparison included, yeah that does scream contrived.
Yeah, I have to admit that was probably Kenny and Arvo's fault: Kenny for being an impulsive (admittedly not as bad as usual) dick by volunteering Arvo to go first and Arvo for actually being confident enough to just go through with it. Granted, walkers were on their tail but they didn't know that at the time.
.* cough*. Jane .* cough*
Uhhh...?
Is there a problem with the physics behind that or something? Cause I thought it made for more tragic sendoff than the alternative.
To be fair, as far as I remember, Bonnie only ends up in the water if you cover Luke, who ends up banging on the ice from beneath before starting to drown right before you break through. The hole you make if you do is what saves Bonnie.
Actually yes I loved his character arc in S1
I get that .but for me...he was just too over the top...I keep thinking about the show ..I know.not the same yet....If Rick had someone in his group that was like Kenny...what would happen...either kicked out..or ..look at the flowers Kenny....but then again...he did have someone in his group like him...Shane. Maybe I just let my dissatisfaction with aspects of season2 color Kenny. I did like him in S1...but I think I had settled on his s1 deaths being the better choices.
But I get what you are saying.
Ya need to spread out your weight because if it is all concentrated on small points like your feet then it will be more likely to break, think like a pin poking through a tissue with the tip but will be unable to do so on its side.
As with the zombie thing, I just don't think the zombie is heavy enough to 1) sink that quickly, and 2) be able to pull down not only itself but the body of another person.
I know that the hole you make saves Bonnie, the point is she entered the water at the same time as Luke, and then escaped AFTER Luke had already drowned, meaning Bonnie was in the water technically even longer than Luke and still got out without much harm, when Luke could not do so for... some reason.
I believe the ending of season 2 (when you don't shoot Kenny) was the perfect redemption for him. It shows who he truly is.
Most of the voice acting in season 2 was, quite frankly, pretty bad.
Very little tonal distinctions of the voices between a character's emotional nuances. Separating slight distinctions of a take such as agitated or furious both having almost the same vocal level, accentuation, punctuation, and all the other shit that makes VO's so important (admittedly Clementine, as much as I love her, was a big perpetrator of this.)
Certain lines that were read with little care of the art of pausing (Kenny's speech in the tent was so weird cause of how elongated some of the pauses were, whereas his recanting of his out of body experience, something I'd think would be hard to talk about, was oddly ran through like as if he was late to an AAR meeting.)
And on top of that, many others doing simply a "phoning it in" job (Mike always sounded bored, Carver being played by the very rarely serviceable Michael Madsen being constantly unexpressive and uninteresting, and Arvo doing such a phoned-in performance it's quite impressive.)
Yeeeah, I did notice that some characters have some pretty weird deliveries, particularly in the first few episodes. I was actually about make a post related to that type of thing myself.
Kenny has a determinate line during dinner at the Ski Lodge that cracks me up because of how sarcastic and dull it sounds. Which is funny, considering he almost certainly got some of the better lines.
And yes, Clementine in particular sounds so bored in half these scenes, even when she's not meant to be.
So you are saying among other things that season two voice direction...was...directionless in parts. I mean we know Melissa and the others do great work...man if there ever would be a post mortem about Season two....that would be one hell of a read.
Say what you will about how entertaining and distinctive each of the characters are in certain scenes, but I'd be lying if I said the dialogue wasn't always the best. Sarah, Carver, Jane, and Arvo in particular have lines that sound..."funny."
I liked all of the deaths given to characters pre-Carver's death in season 2. This includes: Omid, Pete, Nick's first death, Matthew, Walter, Reggie, and both Alvin deaths. Keep in mind Pete and Omid are among my favorite characters.
Agreed.
Possibly. To be fair, the dialogue wasn't always the graceful either, as I noted below.
A what now?
Say what you will about her as an individual, but there's no denying that Jane actually added to Clementine's story and character while still managing to stand up on her own, love her or hate her. The whole "strong independent woman fights back against the pure evil oppressive man" undertones were a bit much, though.
THIS
Tiller level! Connects the wheel to the
You really do see her as a feminist symbol, don't you?
I like season 2, and Jane doesn't need as much hate as she's been getting. (Though I'm not a big fan of her myself tbh)
Did ninja's kidnap you or something? What the hell is that supposed to mean?
Not exactly and I think you mean "feminist" symbol.
Oh jeeze....this again...why is it a woman that can survive and call people out for their b.s. are called feminist symbols...maybe they are just normal survivors...who happen to be women.
Well, as someone who first played Season 2 back in June, there's a lot of weird sentiments and undertones that I only noticed upon looking back at it now.
I always just called her Unintentionally Unsympathetic, a sociopath, and a Karma Houdini up until recently, where that list has been growing.
But come on, look back at some of the things she does and says throughout the Season and tell me you don't see that.
No I do not.
"Well shit--Everyday's a school day!" No, but seriously, thanks for that!
Okay, I honestly didn't think about that.
I can think of a few flimsy excuses but honestly, the only thing I'm thinking about now is why Bonnie didn't push Luke's body towards the hole since she could swim.
Reference to Michonne Miniseries, when Pete is about to start rambling on what the function of a boat's tiller lever is and Michonne stops him abruptly.
Yeah, what a milf.