Well, as someone who first played Season 2 back in June, there's a lot of weird sentiments and undertones that I only noticed upon looking b… moreack at it now.
I always just called her Unintentionally Unsympathetic, a sociopath, and a Karma Houdini up until recently, where that list has been growing.
But come on, look back at some of the things she does and says throughout the Season and tell me you don't see that.
Personally, I think that the whole series has gotten blown way out of proportion.
Sure it is a good story and all, and it's got some interesting character arcs in it. But overall it's just a video game, and it's just a TV series.
I blame nearly all of Season 2's many flaws on the inclusion of Kenny. He took the spotlight from the other characters, which made it harder to get attached to them and led to the most BS character deaths in the series. All so we could watch him experience the same character development he did in Season 1 all over again, but worse. I truly believe Season 2 would have been twice as good if the writers had left him dead like they should have and didn't waste time making him so central to Clementine and the game.
You could become just as attached to Jane as Kenny. While I do agree to an extent, Kenny did take up a lot of time in Season 2, you can't just use him as an excuse as to why you're mad about other characters dying. They could have easily left all of them alive and Kenny would have played the same role he did.
I blame nearly all of Season 2's many flaws on the inclusion of Kenny. He took the spotlight from the other characters, which made it harder… more to get attached to them and led to the most BS character deaths in the series. All so we could watch him experience the same character development he did in Season 1 all over again, but worse. I truly believe Season 2 would have been twice as good if the writers had left him dead like they should have and didn't waste time making him so central to Clementine and the game.
I blame nearly all of Season 2's many flaws on the inclusion of Kenny. He took the spotlight from the other characters, which made it harder… more to get attached to them and led to the most BS character deaths in the series. All so we could watch him experience the same character development he did in Season 1 all over again, but worse. I truly believe Season 2 would have been twice as good if the writers had left him dead like they should have and didn't waste time making him so central to Clementine and the game.
I blame nearly all of Season 2's many flaws on the inclusion of Kenny. He took the spotlight from the other characters, which made it harder… more to get attached to them and led to the most BS character deaths in the series. All so we could watch him experience the same character development he did in Season 1 all over again, but worse. I truly believe Season 2 would have been twice as good if the writers had left him dead like they should have and didn't waste time making him so central to Clementine and the game.
Personally, I think that the whole series has gotten blown way out of proportion.
Sure it is a good story and all, and it's got some interesting character arcs in it. But overall it's just a video game, and it's just a TV series.
Oh sorry, forgot about this little tangent. Examples include:
*Resembling a lesbian/dike stereotype
*Essentially castrating Troy(which is weird for number of reasons, but its still something of a stereotype)
*Is portrayed as outdoing pretty much every male character in everything besides raw strength
*Lambasting the much more feminine Sarita and Sarah
*Taking the initiative on the "love'em and leave'em" strat' with Luke, with all of the blame for Rebecca's near miscarriage (and by ignored extension, Sarah's canon death) falling on him
*Encouraging Clementine to leave the group because "you don't owe them anything"
*Sharing Carver's beliefs and...let's say tastes
*Writing off Kenny as someone who only loves people who does what he says
*Tries to get Clementine to just drive off in the truck so she can "know what its like to live her own life"
How about...she keeps her hair short for survival...but I guess in your world that is just crazy.
Essentially castrating Troy(which is weird for number of reasons, but its still something of a stereotype)
I got nothing on that...mostly because the writers tell us nothing about their relationship before it.
Is portrayed as outdoing pretty much every male character in everything besides raw strength
Such as?
Lambasting the much more feminine Sarita and Sarah
This...I do not get. All she said was that Sarah was going to get someone killed....I think Reggie and Nick might agree. She may have been a little blunt, but that sorta goes with being a loner...you lose some of your people skills.
Taking the initiative on the "love'em and leave'em" strat' with Luke, with all of the blame for Rebecca's near miscarriage (and by ignored extension, Sarah's canon death) falling on him
And how is that a feminist trait exactly?
Encouraging Clementine to leave the group because "you don't owe them anything"
Once again...this is more of the loner trait than anything insidious like lesbianism...and how was this any different from when Kenny was actively advocating to leave the motel group with his family and leaving others behind?
Sharing Carver's beliefs and...let's say tastes
Like beating on kids killing people? Oh wait no that is Kenny
Writing off Kenny as someone who only loves people who does what he says
No she wrote him off because he was becoming a bigger danger than the walkers...and if she had felt that way...she would have been right. Kenny was only ever happy with people if they did exactly as he said. Kenny hardly ever listened to anyone else.
Tries to get Clementine to just drive off in the truck so she can "know what its like to live her own life"
Be free from an ever increasingly erratic person who was going to blow up sooner or later...one who was so focused on punishing Arvo..he neglected a freezing to death Clementine.
Your arguments are not persuasive...but do come off as condescending. I know you are not a jerk...but you are assigning the character of Jane as an example of anti male caricature. She is not. She survives because she is smart...there are many men who survive just the same. The only difference...Jane has breasts. You could make a male version of her named Jim and there would be no change needed in the script...other than Luke if you wanted him to be straight.
Oh sorry, forgot about this little tangent. Examples include:
*Resembling a lesbian/dike stereotype
*Essentially castrating Troy(which is … moreweird for number of reasons, but its still something of a stereotype)
*Is portrayed as outdoing pretty much every male character in everything besides raw strength
*Lambasting the much more feminine Sarita and Sarah
*Taking the initiative on the "love'em and leave'em" strat' with Luke, with all of the blame for Rebecca's near miscarriage (and by ignored extension, Sarah's canon death) falling on him
*Encouraging Clementine to leave the group because "you don't owe them anything"
*Sharing Carver's beliefs and...let's say tastes
*Writing off Kenny as someone who only loves people who does what he says
*Tries to get Clementine to just drive off in the truck so she can "know what its like to live her own life"
How about...she keeps her hair short for survival...but I guess in your world that is just crazy.
I know why she keeps her hair like that in canon, though some could probably argue that Clementine's length is fine but whatever; was just making an observation that pertains to our topic of debate.
I got nothing on that...mostly because the writers tell us nothing about their relationship before it.
Well, not exactly nothing: after all, the entire reason she was able to do that in the first place was because she and Troy had made a deal at some point where they help each other out, with Troy's out of character tenderness and more in character teasing before it happens implying that they've had something going on for long enough that Jane was able to pacify him by claiming she wants him to leave Howe's.
I know that Owen Thomas(Troy and Omid's VA) revealed that Troy was originally a much worse character with a few scenes that were cut at some point, one of which having him harassing Jane. Of course, the fact that these scenes were removed combined with Troy's actual characterization makes it more likely that Jane's exact words are the truth and she simply used his feelings for her to manipulate him over time. Which I prefer, to be honest, if only because the notion of Troy(a irritable dhick with a lazy streak and numerous hints that he's just trying to stay on Carver's good side) harassing/abusing/assaulting Jane(a pragmatic loner who was being gimmick-ily built up as a stoic badass) doesn't really gel with the portrayal of their characters powerset wise.
Such as?
Being more skilled, being more logical in her methods compared to their more emotional ways, being yet another example of Luke not being able to do anything noteworthy on his own, and just being smarter in general(not that that's hard ).
Like I said, the only thing they seem to be better at is raw strength(Luke being able to lift/hold her from above despite being wounded, Mike being Gentle Giant, Kenny getting the upper hand just by brute force).
This...I do not get.
In the truck, she describes Sarita in a vaguely negative light by noting the fact she was probably afraid for her life and so just did what he said must be the reason Kenny loved her. Given that she's arguing against Kenny,, it can construed as her viewing Sarita as being weak(when honestly, Sarita is probably the "strongest" feminine character, but Jane at least has the excuse of not knowing her for long).
Admittedly, Sarah was likely only included by virtue of a foil to her.
And how is that a feminist trait exactly?
Because its essentially a one night stand, since Luke specifically says that she made him that offer and then she left him high and dry when the opportunity presented itself, something that is typically associated with dicks and womanizers.
Sorry about the confusion, I just couldn't resist adding the last bit about Rebecca.
Once again...this is more of the loner trait than anything insidious like lesbianism...and how was this any different from when Kenny was actively advocating to leave the motel group with his family and leaving others behind?
I didn't say lesbianism--I said " "feminism" ." I perfectly understand how you draw that conclusion, but that's not what we're talking about.
Like beating on kids killing people?
Nooo, THAT was a reference to lesbianism since she and Carver both like Clementine because she "strong".
Also, confusing grammar aside, I don't think that's a thing with Jane, so granted. Some people might argue that Sarah and Arvo count, but she technically didn't beat them.
...Yet.
No she wrote him off because he was becoming a bigger danger than the walkers...and if she had felt that way...she would have been right. Kenny was only ever happy with people if they did exactly as he said. Kenny hardly ever listened to anyone else.
Once again, I know what she was getting and I was in begrudging agreement, but that's not the point.
Plus, not to turn this into Kenny vs Jane #4934 here(which I'm sick of, btw), but Kenny would relent if someone made a good case for why their idea is better.
Be free from an ever increasingly erratic person who was going to blow up sooner or later...one who was so focused on punishing Arvo..he neglected a freezing to death Clementine.
And for the trois, I know what she was getting at, but the line is still a bit cringeworthy and overdramatic. That's the point!
Your arguments are not persuasive...but do come off as condescending. I know you are not a jerk...but you are assigning the character of Jane as an example of anti male caricature. She is not. She survives because she is smart...there are many men who survive just the same. The only difference...Jane has breasts.
Yeah, I'm sorry about that. Like I said when I first came to this conclusion and brought it up, I acknowledged that it's opening a can of worms and likely pissing off some people, so I was prepared for potential irritated.
With that said, the point I was making was that Jane is a legitimately complex character, but she has a lot of weird undertones and interpretations that can be drawn from her appearance, behavior, actions, and portrayal. Granted, you can say that about a lot of characters(Kenny, Sarah, and Arvo in particular are probably the worst offenders, which Jane herself did NOT help). The "feminism"(note the quotation marks) angle is probably one of the more "positive" ones.
You could make a male version of her named Jim and there would be no change needed in the script...other than Luke if you wanted him to be straight.
And you end your post on a high note. "Leave em laughing!"
*Resembling a lesbian/dike stereotype
How about...she keeps her hair short for survival...but I guess in your world that is just cra… morezy.
Essentially castrating Troy(which is weird for number of reasons, but its still something of a stereotype)
I got nothing on that...mostly because the writers tell us nothing about their relationship before it.
Is portrayed as outdoing pretty much every male character in everything besides raw strength
Such as?
Lambasting the much more feminine Sarita and Sarah
This...I do not get. All she said was that Sarah was going to get someone killed....I think Reggie and Nick might agree. She may have been a little blunt, but that sorta goes with being a loner...you lose some of your people skills.
Taking the initiative on the "love'em and leave'em" strat' with Luke, with all of the blame for Rebecca's near miscarriage (and by ignored extension, Sarah's canon de… [view original content]
Credit where's it due, this is an unpopular opinion I haven't actually seen before
Although the only part I'm personally inclined to agree with is Mike. Some of his lines just don't sound right. At times the tone/inflection in his voice just goes back and forth, even in the middle of lines. One that stands out is in episode 3
Risky? Did you see what that son of a bitch just did? Look, the plan works. Nothing needs to change. It's all set up. The hard part is done. This guy's fucking crazy, who knows what he'll do next?
The first part of it sounds fine. Then the next just parts just sound like they're being read off a page. Then he suddenly has emotion in the final line again, but in a different tone than the first line. It just felt so clunky. And that's something that stood out to me since the first time I played the episode, to give you an idea how jarring I found it.
But that's the only real standout example for me. I mean yeah, looking back on it, some characters have weird deliveries here and there, but none of it really took me out of the moment (save for the above).
Arvo had one of the more believable performances of the season, if you ask me. Then again, I don't think the guy was given a lot to work with when it came to the character of Arvo, so most of his dialogue was probably him making do. It's a shame, since the guy that voiced him seems like a pretty passionate guy. Both him and Arvo deserved better, that's for sure.
Most of the voice acting in season 2 was, quite frankly, pretty bad.
Very little tonal distinctions of the voices between a character's e… moremotional nuances. Separating slight distinctions of a take such as agitated or furious both having almost the same vocal level, accentuation, punctuation, and all the other shit that makes VO's so important (admittedly Clementine, as much as I love her, was a big perpetrator of this.)
Certain lines that were read with little care of the art of pausing (Kenny's speech in the tent was so weird cause of how elongated some of the pauses were, whereas his recanting of his out of body experience, something I'd think would be hard to talk about, was oddly ran through like as if he was late to an AAR meeting.)
And on top of that, many others doing simply a "phoning it in" job (Mike always sounded bored, Carver being played by the very rarely serviceable Michael Madsen being constantly unexpressive and uninteresting, and Arvo doing such a phoned-in performance it's quite impressive.)
Kenny's role would have had to be significantly decreased for the other characters to be able to shine and have fleshed out storylines. And yes, I am using him as an "excuse" because he didn't have to be there to take up space and yet he was. I think it was a writing flaw and a mistake by the writers, and I think they were too focused on him to focus on the newer characters and create fulfilling arcs for them. In that respect, I see Kenny as not only an unnecessary addition, but a game-ruiner. Obviously plenty of people like Kenny and don't care if he took up a ton of screentime. I get that, but I've disliked Kenny since season one so it didn't appeal to me whatsoever. We had brand new characters, and a lot of them, and yet it became the Kenny game.
At least Jane was a new character with a new arc. Kenny was the same old stuff from season one all over again. And it felt like he took up a lot more space overall, though I would have been fine if Jane got her role lessened too. Besides, It's not really about the dying in itself. Lots of characters die. I'm mad that they didn't even attempt to continue fleshing characters like Nick and Sarah out before they died, and yet it was highly important that Kenny get plenty of attention.
You could become just as attached to Jane as Kenny. While I do agree to an extent, Kenny did take up a lot of time in Season 2, you can't ju… morest use him as an excuse as to why you're mad about other characters dying. They could have easily left all of them alive and Kenny would have played the same role he did.
Arvo had one of the more believable performances of the season, if you ask me. Then again, I don't think the guy was given a lot to work with when it came to the character of Arvo, so most of his dialogue was probably him making do. It's a shame, since the guy that voiced him seems like a pretty passionate guy. Both him and Arvo deserved better, that's for sure.
Agreed, though I still noted earlier that he, Sarah, Carver, and Jane have some "funny" sounding lines.
Credit where's it due, this is an unpopular opinion I haven't actually seen before
Although the only part I'm personally inclined to agre… moree with is Mike. Some of his lines just don't sound right. At times the tone/inflection in his voice just goes back and forth, even in the middle of lines. One that stands out is in episode 3
Risky? Did you see what that son of a bitch just did? Look, the plan works. Nothing needs to change. It's all set up. The hard part is done. This guy's fucking crazy, who knows what he'll do next?
The first part of it sounds fine. Then the next just parts just sound like they're being read off a page. Then he suddenly has emotion in the final line again, but in a different tone than the first line. It just felt so clunky. And that's something that stood out to me since the first time I played the episode, to give you an idea how jarring I found it.
But that's the only real standout example for me. I m… [view original content]
How about...she keeps her hair short for survival...but I guess in your world that is just crazy.
I know why she keeps her hair like… more that in canon, though some could probably argue that Clementine's length is fine but whatever; was just making an observation that pertains to our topic of debate.
I got nothing on that...mostly because the writers tell us nothing about their relationship before it.
Well, not exactly nothing: after all, the entire reason she was able to do that in the first place was because she and Troy had made a deal at some point where they help each other out, with Troy's out of character tenderness and more in character teasing before it happens implying that they've had something going on for long enough that Jane was able to pacify him by claiming she wants him to leave Howe's.
I know that Owen Thomas(Troy and Omid's VA) revealed that Troy was originally a much worse character with a few scenes tha… [view original content]
Even though you've already stated that you know why she keeps her appearance that way, I can see that she fits the current lesbian appearance stereotype with the short hair and the leather jacket.
Essentially castrating Troy
How is this a stereotype?
Is portrayed as outdoing pretty much every male character in everything besides raw strength
She outdoes virtually all characters, male and female, and maybe that is something that you had not considered until now. She is better at surviving than most of the cast, not just the male!
Lambasting the much more feminine Sarita and Sarah
That was purely coincidential. Bonnie is more feminine as well and we did not see her criticizing her; and if she had, it would not have been because she is more femenine, just as she didn't criticize Sarah and Sarita for being more femenine.
Taking the initiative on the "love'em and leave'em" strat' with Luke, with all of the blame for Rebecca's near miscarriage (and by ignored extension, Sarah's canon death) falling on him
I don't understand what you mean nor how it connects to Jane.
Encouraging Clementine to leave the group because "you don't owe them anything"
No, she never did that.
She was showing Clementine that, if staying in the group proved to be dangerous, she should not hesitate to leave, and should not feel guilty because she did not owe them and they did not own her.
Sharing Carver's beliefs and...let's say tastes
That is not inherently wrong.
Writing off Kenny as someone who only loves people who does what he says
That is true to a degree.
Tries to get Clementine to just drive off in the truck so she can "know what its like to live her own life"
Oh sorry, forgot about this little tangent. Examples include:
*Resembling a lesbian/dike stereotype
*Essentially castrating Troy(which is … moreweird for number of reasons, but its still something of a stereotype)
*Is portrayed as outdoing pretty much every male character in everything besides raw strength
*Lambasting the much more feminine Sarita and Sarah
*Taking the initiative on the "love'em and leave'em" strat' with Luke, with all of the blame for Rebecca's near miscarriage (and by ignored extension, Sarah's canon death) falling on him
*Encouraging Clementine to leave the group because "you don't owe them anything"
*Sharing Carver's beliefs and...let's say tastes
*Writing off Kenny as someone who only loves people who does what he says
*Tries to get Clementine to just drive off in the truck so she can "know what its like to live her own life"
You seem unnecessarily critical of Jane just because she knew what she was doing and was prepared. I think people forget that most of us would be weak and scared in lawless zombie-filled wilderness. There's nothing wrong with Jane because she's an exception. She was in the best position to take out Troy who might have shot somebody. And when did Rebecca almost miscarry and what did it have to do with Jane? She was harsh with Sarah in the trailer, but would you like to lift dead weight through the ceiling if you were about to be eaten by zombies. Jane's point was true: you can't keep putting your life at risk for someone who could but won't help them self.
Isn't treating men like farm animals or neutering the more violent/offensive ones a stereotype of "feminism" or something?
She outdoes virtually all characters, male and female, and maybe that is something that you had not considered until now. She is better at surviving than most of the cast, not just the male!
Obviously, otherwise the whole pragmatic survivalist angle wouldn't work to well. This is merely one of the attributes to the "feminist" icon interpretation.
That was purely coincidental. Bonnie is more feminine as well and we did not see her criticizing her; and if she had, it would not have been because she is more feminine, just as she didn't criticize Sarah and Sarita for being more feminine.
True. A coincidence that fits the bill but a coincidence nonetheless; I concede.
I don't understand what you mean nor how it connects to Jane.
Yeah, that one might be me confusing "feminism" with masculinity. One night stands are typically on the male side, after all.
No, she never did that.
She was showing Clementine that, if staying in the group proved to be dangerous, she should not hesitate to leave, and should not feel guilty because she did not owe them and they did not own her.
I know what she meant in context, but out of context, it's that whole "be your own woman" thing.
I'd be lying if I said I didn't try to look at that in a more positive light, but unfortunately, I simply cannot take Jane's side when it comes to her values--especially where someone like Clementine is concerned. What she caused before and afterwards certainly don't help.
That is not inherently wrong.
This might tie in with my personal problems with Jane, but word of advice from storytellers everywhere: you don't give a major character you want us to like the same negative beliefs as the main villain unless you're portraying it as a legitimate flaw on their part that they will acknowledge the downsides of and attempt to overcome.
Scratch that the first part: this is one facet of a major problem with Jane's character in general.
That is a distorted version of what happened.
She literally uses that line, dude. I know I'm not biggest fan of Jane to begin with and the whole straw feminist angle is more of a noticeable interpretation than something that defines her character, but that's probably the biggest testament to making those undertones overtones.
Resembling a lesbian/dike stereotype
Even though you've already stated that you know why she keeps her appearance that way, I can se… moree that she fits the current lesbian appearance stereotype with the short hair and the leather jacket.
Essentially castrating Troy
How is this a stereotype?
Is portrayed as outdoing pretty much every male character in everything besides raw strength
She outdoes virtually all characters, male and female, and maybe that is something that you had not considered until now. She is better at surviving than most of the cast, not just the male!
Lambasting the much more feminine Sarita and Sarah
That was purely coincidential. Bonnie is more feminine as well and we did not see her criticizing her; and if she had, it would not have been because she is more femenine, just as she didn't criticize Sarah and Sarita for being more femenine.
Taking the initiative on the "love… [view original content]
I blame nearly all of Season 2's many flaws on the inclusion of Kenny. He took the spotlight from the other characters, which made it harder… more to get attached to them and led to the most BS character deaths in the series. All so we could watch him experience the same character development he did in Season 1 all over again, but worse. I truly believe Season 2 would have been twice as good if the writers had left him dead like they should have and didn't waste time making him so central to Clementine and the game.
Jane's point was true: you can't keep putting your life at risk for someone who could but won't help them self.
I would like, however, to note that Sarah was not in a position that allowed her to help herself, either; she did not have the faculty nor the tools; she needed others' sympathy, charity and understanding.
You seem unnecessarily critical of Jane just because she knew what she was doing and was prepared. I think people forget that most of us wou… moreld be weak and scared in lawless zombie-filled wilderness. There's nothing wrong with Jane because she's an exception. She was in the best position to take out Troy who might have shot somebody. And when did Rebecca almost miscarry and what did it have to do with Jane? She was harsh with Sarah in the trailer, but would you like to lift dead weight through the ceiling if you were about to be eaten by zombies. Jane's point was true: you can't keep putting your life at risk for someone who could but won't help them self.
Comments
Are you seriously calling Michonne a milf, right here?
Um, sure. Not the response I expected but...hypocritical humor?
What was the response that you expected?
Idk, surprise? Wouldn't that be some shit if that was actual line from the DLC as well?
Oh, DabugRG isn't wrong, Michonne actually is kind of a Milf.
Scale of 1-10, she's at least an 7.
I say she is as hot as Lilly is, which is a 9 for me.
Personally, I think that the whole series has gotten blown way out of proportion.
Sure it is a good story and all, and it's got some interesting character arcs in it. But overall it's just a video game, and it's just a TV series.
You are da bug for me now.
All that Lilly's missing is a brown paper bag and then she'd be off the charts.
We need more gay* characters.
I blame nearly all of Season 2's many flaws on the inclusion of Kenny. He took the spotlight from the other characters, which made it harder to get attached to them and led to the most BS character deaths in the series. All so we could watch him experience the same character development he did in Season 1 all over again, but worse. I truly believe Season 2 would have been twice as good if the writers had left him dead like they should have and didn't waste time making him so central to Clementine and the game.
You could become just as attached to Jane as Kenny. While I do agree to an extent, Kenny did take up a lot of time in Season 2, you can't just use him as an excuse as to why you're mad about other characters dying. They could have easily left all of them alive and Kenny would have played the same role he did.
I like you.
No.
Kenny is influential.
So you want it to stop?
I don't know. Why would she?!
[What're we talking about?]
Am all for that...just don't like seeing us in a game just to check a inclusive box on a list.
"Us," huh?
I am a bisexual female...my partner is a lesbian.
Oh sorry, forgot about this little tangent. Examples include:
*Resembling a lesbian/dike stereotype
*Essentially castrating Troy(which is weird for number of reasons, but its still something of a stereotype)
*Is portrayed as outdoing pretty much every male character in everything besides raw strength
*Lambasting the much more feminine Sarita and Sarah
*Taking the initiative on the "love'em and leave'em" strat' with Luke, with all of the blame for Rebecca's near miscarriage (and by ignored extension, Sarah's canon death) falling on him
*Encouraging Clementine to leave the group because "you don't owe them anything"
*Sharing Carver's beliefs and...let's say tastes
*Writing off Kenny as someone who only loves people who does what he says
*Tries to get Clementine to just drive off in the truck so she can "know what its like to live her own life"
How about...she keeps her hair short for survival...but I guess in your world that is just crazy.
I got nothing on that...mostly because the writers tell us nothing about their relationship before it.
Such as?
This...I do not get. All she said was that Sarah was going to get someone killed....I think Reggie and Nick might agree. She may have been a little blunt, but that sorta goes with being a loner...you lose some of your people skills.
And how is that a feminist trait exactly?
Once again...this is more of the loner trait than anything insidious like lesbianism...and how was this any different from when Kenny was actively advocating to leave the motel group with his family and leaving others behind?
Like beating on kids killing people? Oh wait no that is Kenny
No she wrote him off because he was becoming a bigger danger than the walkers...and if she had felt that way...she would have been right. Kenny was only ever happy with people if they did exactly as he said. Kenny hardly ever listened to anyone else.
Be free from an ever increasingly erratic person who was going to blow up sooner or later...one who was so focused on punishing Arvo..he neglected a freezing to death Clementine.
Your arguments are not persuasive...but do come off as condescending. I know you are not a jerk...but you are assigning the character of Jane as an example of anti male caricature. She is not. She survives because she is smart...there are many men who survive just the same. The only difference...Jane has breasts. You could make a male version of her named Jim and there would be no change needed in the script...other than Luke if you wanted him to be straight.
I know why she keeps her hair like that in canon, though some could probably argue that Clementine's length is fine but whatever; was just making an observation that pertains to our topic of debate.
Well, not exactly nothing: after all, the entire reason she was able to do that in the first place was because she and Troy had made a deal at some point where they help each other out, with Troy's out of character tenderness and more in character teasing before it happens implying that they've had something going on for long enough that Jane was able to pacify him by claiming she wants him to leave Howe's.
I know that Owen Thomas(Troy and Omid's VA) revealed that Troy was originally a much worse character with a few scenes that were cut at some point, one of which having him harassing Jane. Of course, the fact that these scenes were removed combined with Troy's actual characterization makes it more likely that Jane's exact words are the truth and she simply used his feelings for her to manipulate him over time. Which I prefer, to be honest, if only because the notion of Troy(a irritable dhick with a lazy streak and numerous hints that he's just trying to stay on Carver's good side) harassing/abusing/assaulting Jane(a pragmatic loner who was being gimmick-ily built up as a stoic badass) doesn't really gel with the portrayal of their characters powerset wise.
Being more skilled, being more logical in her methods compared to their more emotional ways, being yet another example of Luke not being able to do anything noteworthy on his own, and just being smarter in general(not that that's hard
).
Like I said, the only thing they seem to be better at is raw strength(Luke being able to lift/hold her from above despite being wounded, Mike being Gentle Giant, Kenny getting the upper hand just by brute force).
In the truck, she describes Sarita in a vaguely negative light by noting the fact she was probably afraid for her life and so just did what he said must be the reason Kenny loved her. Given that she's arguing against Kenny,, it can construed as her viewing Sarita as being weak(when honestly, Sarita is probably the "strongest" feminine character, but Jane at least has the excuse of not knowing her for long).
Admittedly, Sarah was likely only included by virtue of a foil to her.
Because its essentially a one night stand, since Luke specifically says that she made him that offer and then she left him high and dry when the opportunity presented itself, something that is typically associated with dicks and womanizers.
Sorry about the confusion, I just couldn't resist adding the last bit about Rebecca.
I didn't say lesbianism--I said " "feminism" ." I perfectly understand how you draw that conclusion, but that's not what we're talking about.
Nooo, THAT was a reference to lesbianism since she and Carver both like Clementine because she "strong".
Also, confusing grammar aside, I don't think that's a thing with Jane, so granted. Some people might argue that Sarah and Arvo count, but she technically didn't beat them.
...Yet.
Once again, I know what she was getting and I was in begrudging agreement, but that's not the point.
Plus, not to turn this into Kenny vs Jane #4934 here(which I'm sick of, btw), but Kenny would relent if someone made a good case for why their idea is better.
And for the trois, I know what she was getting at, but the line is still a bit cringeworthy and overdramatic. That's the point!
Yeah, I'm sorry about that. Like I said when I first came to this conclusion and brought it up, I acknowledged that it's opening a can of worms and likely pissing off some people, so I was prepared for potential irritated.
With that said, the point I was making was that Jane is a legitimately complex character, but she has a lot of weird undertones and interpretations that can be drawn from her appearance, behavior, actions, and portrayal. Granted, you can say that about a lot of characters(Kenny, Sarah, and Arvo in particular are probably the worst offenders, which Jane herself did NOT help). The "feminism"(note the quotation marks) angle is probably one of the more "positive" ones.
And you end your post on a high note. "Leave em laughing!"
I'm on the same boat as you, Lee.
Credit where's it due, this is an unpopular opinion I haven't actually seen before
Although the only part I'm personally inclined to agree with is Mike. Some of his lines just don't sound right. At times the tone/inflection in his voice just goes back and forth, even in the middle of lines. One that stands out is in episode 3
The first part of it sounds fine. Then the next just parts just sound like they're being read off a page. Then he suddenly has emotion in the final line again, but in a different tone than the first line. It just felt so clunky. And that's something that stood out to me since the first time I played the episode, to give you an idea how jarring I found it.
But that's the only real standout example for me. I mean yeah, looking back on it, some characters have weird deliveries here and there, but none of it really took me out of the moment (save for the above).
Arvo had one of the more believable performances of the season, if you ask me. Then again, I don't think the guy was given a lot to work with when it came to the character of Arvo, so most of his dialogue was probably him making do. It's a shame, since the guy that voiced him seems like a pretty passionate guy. Both him and Arvo deserved better, that's for sure.
Kenny's role would have had to be significantly decreased for the other characters to be able to shine and have fleshed out storylines. And yes, I am using him as an "excuse" because he didn't have to be there to take up space and yet he was. I think it was a writing flaw and a mistake by the writers, and I think they were too focused on him to focus on the newer characters and create fulfilling arcs for them. In that respect, I see Kenny as not only an unnecessary addition, but a game-ruiner. Obviously plenty of people like Kenny and don't care if he took up a ton of screentime. I get that, but I've disliked Kenny since season one so it didn't appeal to me whatsoever. We had brand new characters, and a lot of them, and yet it became the Kenny game.
At least Jane was a new character with a new arc. Kenny was the same old stuff from season one all over again. And it felt like he took up a lot more space overall, though I would have been fine if Jane got her role lessened too. Besides, It's not really about the dying in itself. Lots of characters die. I'm mad that they didn't even attempt to continue fleshing characters like Nick and Sarah out before they died, and yet it was highly important that Kenny get plenty of attention.
DabigRG fine too.
Agreed, though I still noted earlier that he, Sarah, Carver, and Jane have some "funny" sounding lines.
I smell bias.
Even though you've already stated that you know why she keeps her appearance that way, I can see that she fits the current lesbian appearance stereotype with the short hair and the leather jacket.
How is this a stereotype?
She outdoes virtually all characters, male and female, and maybe that is something that you had not considered until now. She is better at surviving than most of the cast, not just the male!
That was purely coincidential. Bonnie is more feminine as well and we did not see her criticizing her; and if she had, it would not have been because she is more femenine, just as she didn't criticize Sarah and Sarita for being more femenine.
I don't understand what you mean nor how it connects to Jane.
No, she never did that.
She was showing Clementine that, if staying in the group proved to be dangerous, she should not hesitate to leave, and should not feel guilty because she did not owe them and they did not own her.
That is not inherently wrong.
That is true to a degree.
That is a distorted version of what happened.
Why she would exhibit weird sentiments and undertones.
You seem unnecessarily critical of Jane just because she knew what she was doing and was prepared. I think people forget that most of us would be weak and scared in lawless zombie-filled wilderness. There's nothing wrong with Jane because she's an exception. She was in the best position to take out Troy who might have shot somebody. And when did Rebecca almost miscarry and what did it have to do with Jane? She was harsh with Sarah in the trailer, but would you like to lift dead weight through the ceiling if you were about to be eaten by zombies. Jane's point was true: you can't keep putting your life at risk for someone who could but won't help them self.
Isn't treating men like farm animals or neutering the more violent/offensive ones a stereotype of "feminism" or something?
Obviously, otherwise the whole pragmatic survivalist angle wouldn't work to well. This is merely one of the attributes to the "feminist" icon interpretation.
True. A coincidence that fits the bill but a coincidence nonetheless; I concede.
Yeah, that one might be me confusing "feminism" with masculinity. One night stands are typically on the male side, after all.
I know what she meant in context, but out of context, it's that whole "be your own woman" thing.
I'd be lying if I said I didn't try to look at that in a more positive light, but unfortunately, I simply cannot take Jane's side when it comes to her values--especially where someone like Clementine is concerned. What she caused before and afterwards certainly don't help.
This might tie in with my personal problems with Jane, but word of advice from storytellers everywhere: you don't give a major character you want us to like the same negative beliefs as the main villain unless you're portraying it as a legitimate flaw on their part that they will acknowledge the downsides of and attempt to overcome.
Scratch that the first part: this is one facet of a major problem with Jane's character in general.
She literally uses that line, dude. I know I'm not biggest fan of Jane to begin with and the whole straw feminist angle is more of a noticeable interpretation than something that defines her character, but that's probably the biggest testament to making those undertones overtones.
I agree. Oh, I agree so much.
I love Nick Breckon's writing.
I would like, however, to note that Sarah was not in a position that allowed her to help herself, either; she did not have the faculty nor the tools; she needed others' sympathy, charity and understanding.