Opinion on the Pledge of Allegiance? (should we be required to say it?)
This is a huge issue that has been affecting me this year.
I personally, am an atheist, and I've, for as long as I can remember, never restated the pledge, as I do not pledge allegiance to any god.
I especially dislike the end, "with liberty and justice for all," because that simply is not true within the US. African-Americans, LGBTs, it's just not true.
I am still fairly young (17) and in my junior year of high school, and starting this year, my homeroom teacher has required me to say the pledge. Last time I sat down, he told me how disrespectful I am and threatened to send me to the principal. I am now required to stand, put my hand on my heart and recite the pledge. He is jeopardizing my LEGAL right, he has no control over what I can do. It's my decision, and I don't pledge allegiance. You can't enforce someone's beliefs on you.
So, am I just being a snitch, or do I have a valid point?
Comments
Sorry if this doesn't feel big enough to be a discussion, I'm running the chance of this being merged.
Personally, I think that you're point is valid.
Technically, the Constitution states that it should not even exist in its current version with "one nation under God" (whole freedom of religion thing). As a U.S. Citizen, you ought to be able to do what you want and practise your own religious beliefs (or rather the lack thereof, in this case) without being forced to do otherwise by anyone, much less your local high school.
The pledge's line of a nation under God was actually brought in during the Cold War, which came in a time to help polarise the us vs them mentality of good, freedom-loving, christian 'Muricans against evil, opressive, godless ruskie commies.
Freedom of dissent and speech in the Constitution speaks for itself, also.
Also, I find patriotism to be nauseating; it is illogical and frankly promotes blind fanaticism. Why should I - were I living in America (or you, who are living in America) be forced to participate? Even then, what weight and legitimacy do words extracted under coercion have?
Fundamentally, the pledge of allegiance is flawed in its purpose and ethics.
Same goes for National Anthems.
EDIT: Errors.
By not being an American myself, I stand to get jumped on for going on an "illusion of freedom" rant. So I won't bother.
I'll just say "I'm with you".
Australian here. If anyone tried to make me or anyone I know recite a 'pledge' to anything, most of us would probably laugh, then tell them to kindly f**k off.
It just doesn't really work that way here. The way patriotism and exceptionalism are so woven throughout the system stateside is really detrimental and outdated.
It's a left over from America's nationalist period, a period which isn't completely gone either. I honestly think it needs to be re-written again though. Even it's earliest form is more politically correct than the current version which have our children recite today.
I like the Pledge to be forward. I think the serious problem is, children are forced to recite it repeatedly, day in and day out that it pretty much loses all meaning to them. The Pledge itself needs to be more specific and less broad, more upholding of America's ideals, not a oath of loyalty to the state. Because in the end, that is exactly what it is, an oath of loyalty to the state, the rest is just sugar to make it sound better.
I don't really care about it. I despise the USA, and I just don't see why it (the pledge) exists.
I don't remember how, if at all, I opposed the pledge, but being gay, atheist and aware of racism at age 15 (when I was still in high school), I'd say I definitely support your refusal to recite the pledge. I think there have been teachers who keep the TV off or on mute during it to show that they think it's bogus and that we don't have to do anything for it.
No. It's ridiculous and outdated. Let's leave it at that.
Fun story, this used to be the original salute used for the Pledge of Allegiance:
From there I think you can guess my opinion (not that extreme, but you get the point). Honestly, I don't give a rat's ass about the God part, I don't believe in 'pledging allegiance' to my government, period. I respect and serve my government only to the extent it respects and serves me. It's a social contract, not a feudal bond.
Oh, and go to the Principal, tell him what happens and he should talk to the teacher. If he gets after you instead, say you'll call the ACLU, then do it. I'm serious, it's your right, and your school has no right to force you. A snitch is if you do something wrong with somebody else and then rat them out to get less punishment, it's not snitching about somebody actually wronging you.
It's one of those things that's been accepted as normal here, but probably looks insane and creepy to foreigners. Personally I see little point in pledging myself to scraps of fabric (much less the state behind it), but I don't make a show of it. Your right to refuse the pledge is legally protected.
Also, unless you're ratting your teacher out to the cops, it's not snitching.
I'm loosely religious but I can say it's your choice on the matter and nobody else's.
Constitutionally, they have no right to compel you to pledge allegiance. However, it's easier to just say the words and not mean them than to fight it.
You've probably seen people avoiding their expected patriotic motions lately, because it makes good news stories. That doesn't really fix anything, though. It just gives the other side (the one they're trying to influence) a bigger reason to disregard their views. If you want your opinions to be taken seriously, you have to do your best to gain the respect of those you hope to sway.
Wow, I'm shocked here. Everyone has agreed with you so far.
LGBT, and Blacks are treated just fine lol. Social inequality ? Why is and justice for all not true. You're 17, lol.
Franklin and Jefferson were not religious, yet they said One nation under God. I find that people can be ridiculous for saying that they are atheist and that part offends them, lol. It was created to show freedom of worship.
You pledge to remember the fallen soldiers and soldiers that are missing limbs due to war. You are given freedom by acts of soldiers, hundreds of years ago. You should respect the soldiers and pledge to the flag as a sign of respect. Those football players were disgusting for kneeling during the pledge. I can't stand BLM anyway.
The thing about those protests is they aren't usually meant to convince the other side. They're meant to convince people who might feel the same, but are too scared or apathetic to act.
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As to 2. The "Under God" wasn't added until the 1950s, but okay...
But to 3, humor me with a little thought experiment - do you think modern Germany should respect and honor those who fought and were maimed and died fighting for the Nazi cause? (I am by no means comparing American soldiers to Nazis, my sole reason for asking is to play a little game of logic.)
To compare nazis to American soldiers is disrespectful. Nazi soldiers were brainwashed men that were led by a dictator, that flag should not be honored at all. Modern Germany salutes the modern German flag and remembers its fallen. American generals are not dictators that have committed genocide. Your argument is flawed. In a way you are comparing the two due to flags and soldiers. Modern Germany and WW2 Germany are two different countries entirely. On a side note I never knew that Eisenhower added One nation under God to the pledge.
Like I said, I never intended to compare the two. I'm assuming from your response that Germany shouldn't. If this is the case, do you think that all wars America fights are justified and to the benefit of the freedom of Americans? Do you think Americans were made more free by the wars in Iraq and Vietnam? What about Libya? Syria? Yugoslavia? Nicaragua? When we say the Pledge of Allegiance, are we excluding them from the vow? Or are we saluting them because even if we do not agree with the war, we salute them for their sacrifice for what they believe is right? Which brings me back to my original question. What then séparâtes the brainwashed from the patriot under those circumstances? Or are you suggesting that we conduct minute subconscious calculations about which soldiers are or are not included every time we put our hand over our chest?
I was raised in a military family. My father is a retired Sargent and my grandfather's brothers all were veterans. There is a difference between politicians and soldiers. We do not pledge to the politicians as what good have they done ? We honor the fallen that enlisted to help protect against foreign and domestic threats and we should pray for the safety of current soldiers. American soldiers are trained differently than Cuban, North Korea, and ISIS soldiers. Error and shortcomings means death by their trainers in those countries. American training is designed to correct errors and create the mentality of each person is important, The few, the proud, the Marines, as an example. A far cry from the many outweigh the few in evil countries.
As far as my restricted understanding goes, the "Pledge of Allegiance" is an oath that American students are required to recite on a daily basis right during the start of the first class of the day—is this correct?
From my perspective, those are just words and they mean nothing, as long as you have your own preferences clear. I would not bother rebelling if these are just irrelevant phrases that I am forced to mumble daily, as everybody acknowedges that everyone has to do it and they do not necessarily represent one's beliefs.
No you do not have to recite the pledge. You tell that teacher to piss off(in a nice way). The ACLU will tear that school a new asshole if they do not stop. You are protected under the 1st amendment of the Constitution.
We shouldn't be forced to say it, as that is a slippery slope for freedom of speech and expression in general. I do, however, think that we should be encouraged to say the pledge and that it is important to show respect, if not for the country/government itself then for the people who died for it along the way.
I don't think you should be required to do it, but it doesn't bother me that schools do it every morning. The only time I ever saw someone get "forced" to do it was when I was in 10th Grade. Our Health teacher was a veteran of the Vietnam War, and got upset when people didn't do it. A girl didn't stand up one day, she said she didn't want to because she was an atheist. Our teacher was also an atheist, and didn't care much for that excuse. Most folks at my school just saw standing up for the pledge as a sign of respect.
My father IS a lieutenant, and I don't need to recite a poem every day just to show that I like America. I appreciate your input, but please don't accuse me of being disrespectful.
Legally, arguably yes. The general population and the people enforcing said laws however are a different story. Although, to your credit, there are always divisive opinions and attitudes in society.
As I mentioned before, the "one nation under God" line is technically unconstitutional for freedom of worship (or freedom to a lack of worship thereof for certain cases) and was introduced in 1954 during the Cold War to polarise the Christian U.S. vs Godless U.S.S.R mentality, by which point Franklin and Jefferson where well and truly reduced to bones and dust.
Remembrance of fallen and wounded soldiers and pledging to a state and/or its colours are not necessarily the same thing. I can show my respect and appreciation to fallen and wounded soldiers - now and historically - of my own country without pledging to the flag. There are other ways to respect these soldiers that do not include swearing your allegiance to a government and a God whom you may or may not believe in.
I wasn't accusing you Fancies of being disrespectful, that was directed at Sarangholic. I said that you are 17 and have no right to say look at how the world is and people like LGBT and Blacks are treated. The news is such a scam, the world is actually great. If your father is a LT, then you should ask him why you are supposed to pledge and hear his answer. I grew up around Black people and my fiancé is half Black and White. There's good and bad White and Black neighborhoods and the bad ones are that way due to ignorant people believing that crime is cool.
Not an American, so I'm not really sure how the whole allegiance thing works, but no I don't believe anyone should be required to say such a thing.
I am American and I love my country. It's not perfect, but no where is. If I didn't I wouldn't be living here. I stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, I just don't say the under god part given I'm atheist. But I see no problem with you not wanting to stand, It's your own right and you shouldn't be forced to do so.
Do you actually believe that? The world aka the USA is not great if you are a minority...it is only tolerable because you get used to the aspects of the nation's prejudices. I have seen first hand how black friends are targeted by police for no other reason than they were guilty of being black and driving a car to get home and just happen to drive near rich white people's homes. These things happen. Stop and frisk in New York targeted minorities more than whites. It gets to the point where it becomes driven home that you need to fight for your rights to be human.
I am not saying I agree with everything BLM does...but part of it is the desperation a lot of minorities feel.
And as a bi-sexual female who's partner is a lesbian...we have seen a bit of trouble...we are citizens of this country, and the idea that it would be allowed for a business to deny us service just because of who we love...it is wrong. It goes against what this country is supposed to be about.
If you cannot see the problems in this country...then respectfully, you are not looking. They are there. I love the United States..but it is still a work in progress.
Great irony of that is, that the Racial Policies of Nazi Germany were pioneered in the USA, when it comes to marriage, citizenship, segregation. Worse yet Germany's practice of Eugenics was pioneered in the USA as well.
I really don't care either way. It's a thing people say, it's not like some awful burden being forced on people without any say in the matter, it's a short thing.
I stand and I recite the pledge. Every now and then I recite it over the announcements at my high school. I personally see nothing wrong with it. Never have and never will. It's just words, say it if you'd like and if you don't want it say it then just don't. You have that right to stay silent as I have the right to say something. America may not be perfect, but from what I've seen it's better that some other places. And I frankly love my country and it's people. For better or for worse, America is still one of the strongest nations on the planet. But I diverge.
In short, do whatever you like as long as it's not intrusive to someone else's rights.
It's completely wrong, I don't disagree. And I feel really bad that people do shit like that to all of the lovely people in the LGBT+ community such as yourself. But they have a right to do so if it's against their beliefs. Does that make it acceptable? Not at all, but they have a right to do so. But even so, if they believe that way I don't think you want them to grant you service anyway. Either way, it's sadly the way things are.
I'd say get rid of it. Back in the day, when I did "pledge", I didn't care or mean what I said and felt like a waste of time. I love living in America, but saying this "pledge" meant nothing to me. Since I don't have to say it as an adult, I wonder what was the point?
Yep, some good ole' state sponsered sterilisations.
Oh come on Kenny Should Die. America is great for everyone even if you're a minority compared to other places in the world. My dad's people came from Italy during WW1 waving the Americans flag and cheering on the boat with others. I think that the problem with this generation is that it as a whole is flawed. I'm 23 and was raised by my 1927 born grandfather. I feel that people complain too much and give up so easily that are near my age. Many people are lazy and do not work hard labor. Mexicans I've worked with work hard and don't complain, they smile and have fun with what they do. Cops in my area crack down on the pill drug abuse in my area and are jerks to everyone, I don't even like cops to be honest. I do not agree with a thing that BLM does, you act as a criminal and riot, you get your just desserts. My fiancé is Irish Scottish and Black. She has every right that a full White woman does, she goes to college with everyone else, she works hard and doesn't believe in White privilege as I don't believe in it either.
(NOTE: Please use the reply feature next time, starting different strands of conversation only makes it confusing to read)
Soundwasteland, your experiences do not reciprocate everyone else's experience in the USA. It may not seem like it, but the USA is not exactly staying true to what it is found upon. I still continue to get mistreated, all because I was born an intersex.
I never liked religion because the Bible was very against who I am, who I was born as. Over time I grew to be an atheist.
The fact that I'm bullied at high school constantly for being who I am is enough; I'm not letting some lifeless 60 year-old take my beliefs away from me. Hell, he even gets mad if I use my left hand during the pledge! (I'm left handed and currently am recovering from a shoulder dislocation in my right arm). My teacher is not only taking away my freedom of speech, but jeopardizing my safety.
I don't need to recite some poem that means NOTHING to me to show allegiance. But, if I'm being honest, I will NEVER truly pledge my allegiance to a flag, or a God I don't believe in. If you pledge your allegiance, you're literally agreeing for them to take your rights away and do whatever they ask.
It also saddens me to see most parents help their kids, and defend their kid's own rights. My parents think I'm disgusting for not pledging my allegiance to a flag and a God I don't believe in.
What's an intersex ? As I said before I think that you are looking into all of this too deeply.
My body doesn't conform to a male nor a female's body.
Who cares if you believe in God or not, just say it. Pledge is a US tradition that's why liberals are trying to destroy it. You're living in a beautiful, rich country yet you're looking for problems in places where they aren't. I know many peoples who would repeat those few sentences day and night just to get a chance to live "american dream".