Am I the only one not taking that scene at face value?
The murder scene at the Vale's where it's assumed Vicki murdered her foster parents. Am I the only one who doesn't think what's presented at face value is what happened? I know Vicki is being portrayed as the villain, and maybe it's my lingering regret that she's not a romantic option, but I just don't see her being that vicious. I think it's too obvious so as to not be the case. They're leading us in one direction only to pull the rug out from under us later.
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People had similar feelings about Bruce's parents being corrupt before episode 2.
I actually still don't think they are...
Oh so Thomas drugged Esther Cobblepot for a good reason?
No I don't think the video is legit or it's out of context.
Hill admits he had The Wayne's killed because he thought Thomas was getting too violent, soooo.
Yeah, people are saying a lot of things. I've learned not to trust much of what people say in these types of telltale games.
See TWAU.
Wolf among us had magic though.
It be pretty hard to pull another twist like that in a game like this.
Clearly the video is real because Hill never denied it.
It may be real, or Hill is a liar. Which we know he is.
I actually think Joker is orchestrating both the Vale's murder as well as the conspiracy about Bruce's parents. I think his goal is propel these two very powerful, vengeful people into a confrontation that would reap the most chaos in the city. He seems to relish the idea of Vale and Bruce fighting and he has no problem with leading Bruce straight towards Vale. I got a Joker vibe from the beginning when all of this family info started really getting to Bruce... seems like the way that Joker would attack Bruce, being out of sight / pretending to be friendly while actually manipulating his emotional state and perception of reality.
There's literally a line confirming it's real in episode 4. Bruce looks through the Arkham files and realizes that's how the COA got the video. He literally says "The video at the debate, it's real"
This is a very intriguing theory. The Joker behind it from the beginning. I hope this is the case. Imagining Thomas and Martha Wayne as villains is pretty hard for me to do, even knowing this is an AU Batman universe.
Yes. I know. That proves nothing till ep. 5 is over. It really doesn't mean squat at this point.
He could have lied, but why lie if you know the video is fake? I guess Falcone lied too and that photo was also fake.
But there's also Alfred, who confirms they were indeed corrupt.
And then there's Penguin, who also confirms that MAAARTHAAA was going to snitch Thomas for what he had been doing.
There's also that dude in Arkham who claims Thomas put him there.
Falcone also confirms it, minutes before dying. And so does Hill.
There's also a whole terrorist movement motivated for his actions.
Yeah. I'm having a pretty hard time believeing all these people are just pulling a prank on Bruce!
Alfred gave us what he thought was going on, true. But then they died. Who knows if he was right?
I find it much harder to believe Thomas and Martha Wayne were basically Hitler.
So basically, every argument is not good enough for you? Alfred telling Bruce about his parents, Bruce himself believing that the tape was legit, a whole terrorist group formed because of Thomas actions - it's a prank right?
The Waynes really were corrupt, but I think there's a chance Hill only said that to try to save himself for Penguin
Alfred is in the photo with Falcone and Thomas...
Bro.
"I've been watching you for awhile now, Bruce"
"I don't believe your FACTS!"
Hill "admits" it. But what else would he do? He felt he had to admit to having them killed so what's he going to say? "I did it because I wanted to cut out the middle man"? "I did it because Martha was going to get me arrested and I knew Thomas would kill me if I just killed her"? He is so not reliable here, even if what he claimed actually happened but if we were supposed to take him at face value Oz offering that alternate explanation, that Martha was good and they died because they were going to do the right thing, wouldn't be making up.
I mean, I hardly think Thomas was that bad. And also, regardless of the fact everyone in the game talks about "the Waynes", no one has said a damn thing about how Martha was involved. Falcone mentions she has a human touch and compares Bruce helping him with the pain to her. Oz claims she didn't know and when she found out she tried to fix it. So it's really just him and lumping Martha in is like everyone in Gotham lumping Bruce in with them.
I hope not. It would be cheap to introduce the Joker in episode four and have him be the mastermind behind everything. Other people can do bad things without involving him, he is not the source of every conspiracy in Gotham.
I think it's enough to just introduce him, maybe you see him in episode four (especially if Harvey is in Arkham and you have a scene visiting him) and trust that he'll be behind everything in season two. He may even be planning on using this to his advantage but having the shocking reveal of Vicki as the leader be a red herring because OMG Joker? No thanks.
Except it proves everything
So you prefer your father being a good guy and Alfred, the guy who's taken care of you the whole life, being a liar and working for the joker?
Really you would prefer that version?
Is that so hard to believe? There's clearly a large-scale conspiracy going on here. I don't think it's that fantastical to believe historical events are being skewed or invented in order to manipulate people.
I prefer Alfred being mistaken.
All it proves is he said it. It doesn't prove it's true. It's as if you people have never heard of liars before.
He's already said he's watched Bruce for a while.
That doesn't mean that he's in charge of everything. Oz and Vicki have also both been watching Bruce for awhile and Vicki has already been confirmed to be Lady Arkham. It would be really boring if nothing bad in Bruce's life ever happened that the Joker wasn't directly responsible for.
Mistaken?
How can he be mistaken?
Do you try to avoid the truth always? Even when you learn that Santa Claus isn't real?
Eh! Keep Santa out of this!
Yes, because Bruce would totally lie about his parents being criminals.
That makes perfect sense.
AgentZ46, do you think it's possible that the Wayne's were afflicted with the very same chemical agent that caused Bruce to beat the piss out of Cobblepot? Or an earlier version? Or some other form of control? Maybe someone was pulling strings, maybe they threatened kid Bruce, any form of blackmail, who knows.
Maybe Martha and Alfred were in the dark about the motivations behind Mr. Wayne's actions.
Sure, it's likely true and proven that the Wayne's did some criminal shit. But that doesn't mean we have the whole story or that they weren't innocent of ill intent.
As the title of the thread states, "not taking it at face value" and I actually agree with that.
Does anyone else find it odd that the Joker knows all of this? As someone else stated, there's no magic in Gotham. Joker isn't a psychic. Perhaps he's been somewhere in the background pulling strings all along. Organizing. Turning people against each other. Etc.
Now I'm just being tin-foily so I'll stop but all I'm saying is: the OP is right. We don't really know the full story.
Arshei, by your logic, all of Gotham is a liar for believing Bruce is a bad guy. Cause, far as they know, he's just as "corrupt" as the Wayne's, clinically insane, & Cobblepot is a great guy. And what they don't know? Simply cannot be true.
Ever stop and consider... I don't know... the insanely irrational possibility that maybe Thomas didn't reveal his motives to Alfred? Maybe he kept things a secret to protect him & Martha?
Nah, that's crazy and the equivalent to believing in Santa Clause. And you're definitely not acting childish.
So nobody finds it peculiar that the Joker just somehow sort of... possesses all this knowledge for no reason? He's magical, or has his own personal CCTV with the largest array of hidden cameras in Gotham? Or he's a psychic?
He's definitely involved somehow. Involved enough to know more than Bruce Wayne.
No I don't, at all.
First, Bruce is a "bad guy", he is living the life because his father was a criminal, he is living the dream while other people are living in the streets, what kind of hero is a rich guy that lives in a mansion while there are people out there sleeping in the floor ? Such a good guy, remember he is only Batman because of his eccentric revenge against the criminals because of what happened to his parents. You can't call yourself a good guy and laugh at others people misery. Doing good doesn't make it up for your bad actions.
A video, witnesses, photos, ALFRED, the life ruined of Oswald, I think those are very good reasons to believe Thomas was a criminal, while your only support is your pathetic fanaticism for old Batman versions with "good parents".
Sorry but if there is evidence in front of you, and you decide to ignore it just because you don't like the truth, you are a moron, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, the Queen of England, they all are lies, and if you believe in them despite being a grown up adult just because you "prefer they were real" you need to go see a psychologist.
Tis a fair opinion.