Joel from The Last of Us.....
I tend to think he is the biggest piece of shit in gaming history. Dooming humanity to a future of infection and terror just to save Ellie. Discuss?
Sign in to comment in this discussion.
I tend to think he is the biggest piece of shit in gaming history. Dooming humanity to a future of infection and terror just to save Ellie. Discuss?
Comments
I understand why he did it, Ellie was the last person he ever really gave a shit about. Besides if there is no Ellie then there would be no Last of us part 2.
Ida probably done the same. I love the ending. I think it's hilarious that Marlene, even knowing it's what Ellie would choose, decides to murder her and not let Joel say goodbye. He wouldn't have had the moral grounds to impede at all if Marlene had handled the situation a bit differently.
Yes, he does not care about humanity, and just acts on his love for Ellie, a girl he's got real close to and sees as his new daughter. Ellie herself even wanted to get sacrificed for the sake of humanity, "I'm still waiting for my turn" as she says in the end of the game, referring to when she and the girl (Riley) she started to love got bit, and Riley died but Ellie didn't, giving her survivors guilt.
That's part of why I love this game, all the time I though we where going to save the world, but then they make us do this. We don't get a choice, which I liked in this case, this is not your story, it's theirs.
Also, even if they managed to make a vaccine, how would they produce enough? how would they distribute it? how would they make people actually use it?
So Tess died for nothing then. Sorry but that entire ending was a hack fest.
Yeah true
I think the whole point as you play it is that you gradually grow to realise you're playing kind of an asshole. That's why the point of view shifts to Ellie at the end.
It's kind of the opposite of Oedipus Tyrannos if any of you have read/seen it.
Why should anyone care about humanity at this point? Most of the people are dead or monsters. And those who are healthy are mostly bandits, cannibals and other awful beings. Humanity doesn't deserve a cure even if there was one.
And who said the Fireflies could develop a cure in the first place? If you search enough, you'll find recordings that the scientists already worked with immune people like Ellie and their research failed before. But okay, let's say the Fireflies actually got the cure, how do they multiply it? How do they share it with all other people? They neither have the ressources, nor enough men to share the cure with whats left of humanity. Which means the Fireflies would have a cure only for themselves and that's as useful as not having one at all.
I would've done the same. Screw the destroyed, cruel world, you don't owe it a damn thing. Enjoy the little things, especially the bonds with people you deeply care about, as long as you have the chance.
See I would be convinced by this if a) Ellie wouldn't have wanted the cure and b), most importantly, Joel hadn't lied to her about it.
A bond that's only survived because of a huge lie isn't a true bond.
If it's supposedly about how important close relationships should be, it wouldn't have ended with him telling her a massive lie. That tells us quite plainly that it was a dodgy decision. Particularly killing the doctors pleading for their lives. And it's why we play as Ellie at the end - because we are meant to have become distanced from Joel. And indeed that's why we continued to play as her in the dlc, and in the sequel.
Didn't you pay attention? Humanity is the reason Joel lost his daughter. Sarah wasn't killed by a clicker or a runner or a stalker. She was unnecesary killed by an asshole soldier who could have just helped them. It was ok for Joel to not let that happen to Ellie as well. This isn't just about Sarah. You wanna know how Tess and Henry and Sam died?
So why would Joel let those assholes save the world which became a threat to his life after what they did to Sarah, Tess, Henry and Sam?
Tess died because of Robert. He is the one who caused this.
Are you saying people who aren't sure whether they like him weren't paying attention?
Because I'd say quite the opposite: the entire artistic point to me and to most I've spoken to seemed to be about gradually questioning the person you're playing as - which is why at the very end the game wrenches control away from him and to Ellie, and why the game ends with him lying to her.
If it was just a generic 'good guy saves girl who wants to be saved and everything is great' it would have had an ending where they drive into the sunset listening to some generic rock song.
The entire point is that Joel is very much questionable in his actions - and we are encouraged to question him. We would play as him at the very end if he was meant to be an unquestionable hero, and it certainly wouldn't end with him lying.
Indeed, and it's going to lead to some great tension in the sequel.
Absolutely! Can't wait for it.
It could be argued she died for something else. It could be argued she died because of her own greed. It could be said that a lot of people die for nothing. Doesn't matter all that much.
Joel lied to her because he loves her so much. And he can't accept that Ellie wants to throw away her young life for nothing because of a Survivor-Guilt-Syndrom. Sure, you can say it's Ellie's life and her decision, but it's simply not reasonable at all. The point is, Joel is no hero and he never tries to be one. The game wouldn't have been so successful if the ending played out as the usual good one.
You don't have to kill all of them, only the one who points a weapon towards you.
Nope, the reason is that we got to see Ellie's past and her struggle to save Joel while he was badly injured in the winter arc.
Yeah, he's not a good person but at least he's not a complete monster like David who basically wanted Ellie as his sex slave.
That's a very good point. And while I didn't say it as articulately as you did, I made a sort of similar remark to this during my ending commentary in my TLOU play through a couple of weeks ago.
This just ratifies further how it was not a strong bond. It's very strong one way - but again, a relationship built on a lie is not strong. Ellie asks him about something she really wanted to know and he lied to her about it.
It is her life and it is her decision. That wasn't respected.
Then why are you essentially trying to say all of his actions are great? If the whole point is that he isn't a hero, then surely many of his actions need to be non-wonderful.
There can be multiple reasons for something. We got to see her past because it was setting her up for the future.
Man, what is it with zombie related video games and characters named David, they seem to always be huge assholes. David trying to rape Ellie, or at least do something untoward with her, and now David in ANF, branding people, possibly abusive.
It would have been ironic if David in ANF was played by Nolan North.
I don't see why a strong bond can't be built on a lie. If it came out it could shatter the relationship, but that doesn't mean the bond is weak in either direction before that. Not specifically in the case of Joel and Ellie either.
The whole relationship isn't build on a lie. Yes, he lied to her, but that doesn't render their whole, strong relationship before that worthless. In my book it's actually the other way around. The fact that Joel lied to Ellie the way he did to protect her means a lot. It takes a lot of passion to do so.
So you would agree with your child and let it commit suicide because it feels guilty for surviving a car crash where its friends died. Okay then, good to know.
Because he acts out of love. He has no naive, idealistic view of the world and how it should be. He doesn't try to save an image of a world that is long gone and beyond repair. He looks at the world how it is and deals with it, trying to at least save the life of a beloved child since he failed to do so in the past.
And I value Joel and his actions a lot more than I value a hero who does let go of everything for the "greater good" - which doesn't even exist in the world of TLoU.
Humanity is pretty much already doomed. The world has gone to shit, and there are already countless runners and clickers, as well as hunters who have lost their moral compasses. And it isn't even a cure that the fireflies were hoping to make using Ellie, it was a vaccine. A vaccine would have no effect on the clickers since it would need to be administered before the infection, and as such there is absolutely no hope for the hundreds of them roaming the earth. Even if they did succeed in creating a vaccine and mass producing it, what is to stop a bunch of clickers from tearing you to shreds? Or a group of hunters butchering you for your stuff? Joel wasn't considering the rest of humanity when he saved Ellie, but he still did the right thing.
I think that aside from Kenny on TWD, Joel is one of the best written characters in gaming history. He's so relatable, just an average guy thrown into an insane situation.
Well thats just untrue even for exaggeration, the guy isnt evil and even in that game there are people ten times worse.
I think the world was already like that however there are two points even after this
There isnt much reason to think it will
The "zombies" are not going to be cured and lets be honest even if they didnt turn you they would still kill you pretty easily. Clickers basically rip your throat out. Also the humans are all aggressive/trying to kill each other. Having a cure wont suddenly make everything better.
It really comes down to if you find joel too selfish for what he does. Ellie should really be allowed her own decision and he should have told her the truth. However at the same time he is still saving ellie from herself and her guilt, if ellie knew she could die to be a cure she would likely accept it or try her best to find more fireflies putting herself at risk.
However i'm not really torn on joel killing marlene and saving ellie in that particular setting, the fireflies didnt ask ellie either, they just started surgery and regardless of what people think she wants i'm not sure the fireflies care either.