I didn't even know where to begin with this initially, Badger. This part has been one hell of a ride. The new format, many pictures at once, did feel refreshing, but I can safely say I enjoy it far better in form of daily posts. You can still feel the way narration is divided into segments & understand where one post would end & another begin. I can't say this was bad or ruined the experience for me, it's just not my favorite style. Something about ten images a day was just more immersive for me (ironically, since a PDF was meant to do the same xD). We didn't get to see the whole scene at once, but strangely enough? that sort of worked for me, because each post revealed a new layer of the part & picked up the small hints we were given in the previous ones. It felt like it was developing more naturally, while always keeping a tad of intrigue. Consuming everything at once, I don't know, again, it didn't ruin anything, but for me, there was a bit of a "rushed" feeling. Just a little, so don't take it as if I'm bitching about this. I suppose, this just comes down to personal preference.
Compared to the ending of part three, the first scene of the epilogue felt grim. While "Ever Higher" ended in lighter tones (thanks to that great snowfall, seriously, I loved the way it looked & the atmosphere it gave us) & warm reunions, "Iron Grows Anew" did not try to spare us from the harshness of reality. The war might've ended in a declaration of peace, but nothing can take away the remains of it's ugliness — and any war, always, no matter what, remains a wretched, ugly thing. As much as I liked the more hopeful & happy ending, we truly needed to be reminded of this, same as the Glenmores needed to get their closure. It feels sort of weird, how out of all the houses involved, they are the ones to be left in the darkest, most distraught sate at the end of the day. Come to think of this — the thought sort of takes me back to the fact, that it were technically Glenmores who started the war in the first place. Sure thing, Whitehill-Forrester conflict was the real reason, but the first actual act of violence was the capture of Ironrath's garrison, performed mainly by Glenmore forces. Hell, in my game, it was performed by their forces only, without Rodrik's approval, aid or permission. Just something this reminded me of, some cruel, cruel irony. Although they may not've suffered the most losses in terms of men or even family members, their loss is of a slightly different nature... Buuut, let's start from the beginning, since, as I've said, there are quite a few segments to this scene, & each one has something special to offer.
The first thing I'd like to thank you for is, surprisingly, the presence of Waymar Riverstone. This is something I never believed could actually happen & when it did? It freakin rocked. You see, I've stumbled upon his page on the wiki a long time ago & instantly fell in love with that dude. There wasn't much information about him, neither — any indication that we could ever hope to see him on screen (though now I realize, the fact that he had an actual model instead of a faceclaim or drawing should've been a giveaway xD). He just had some special look about him — a man in his fifties, but with a smile so warm & even, dare I say, mischievous sparkles in his eye. When I heard about him being blinded by Hullen, it honestly hurt, and so did the thought, that he'd just remain as a mention of some poor bastard, crippled by Whitehills' goons, not an actual character. Such a great thing that it was fixed, because his presence made everything a bit better.
I wasn't wrong when I suspected that there was some special kindness in him, that shows when he talks to Ostyn. By the gods, Ostyn deserves some kindness. Actually, no, he deserves all the kindness, because the shots of him in the background, with that lost, mournful look on his face are simply heartbreaking. He is so good & he deserves so much better than having to endure this & I want so badly to believe, that things will turn out alright for him. Maybe he'll squire for Namond when the latter is back, & then, he has to be knighted, because if anyone deserves to be a knight in this wretched piece of shit world, it's a guy like him. I refuse to accept anything but the best for Ostyn. Ostyn is to be protected. Ostyn is to be treated with love & respect. Though we haven't had a chance to learn much about Rickon Snow, Waymar is right, I can already tell that — Ostyn will be ten times the man his father was. The way Waymar speaks of the latter is actually quite worrisome for me, for personal reasons — I wonder what has earned Rickon his reputation. I also wonder if Waymar is going to reveal the identity of his father to Ostyn (or did he already? This moment is a little bit confusing, tbh, maybe I'm forgetting something) & what he will do with the information. One thing I know is that I can trust Ostyn to make the right choice.
As we move on to all the other heroes featured in this, Kyra is certainly worth talking about. I remember worrying about the effect Lyarra's death would have on her the most & boy, was I right to worry. It scares me how much loss Kyra has had to endure, especially with how Arthur, Lyarra & Errol seemed to be the family members she had the strongest bond with — I believe, I recall you posting a small drabble on your rp blog, where it was stated Kyra felt most comfortable around her father out of all family members. ((Speaking of the rp blog, make sure to keep an eye on your askbox, as Lira Grimport is probably already on the way to Rillwater Crossing to offer her condolences to Kyra.)) Though I completely understandable, it's nonetheless painful to see Kyra hardened by this. Having to become tougher, to overcome her fears, it might actually, in a fucked up way, do her a degree of good in terms of growing up... Which does not make it any less painful. You can see how she develops that sort of understanding with her mother, of supporting her through this; see her form a special bond with Namond, for whom she's probably one of the few good things left in the world & one of the few reasons to go on. She's different now, hopefully with her core the same, but still different. You'd never expect a vengeful side of her to come into play, for her to wish harm upon another — but you can't expect her to be the same innocent meek child either. This is honestly tough to watch, but this is what you knew would happen. I just hope she can have the strength to transfer her newfound hardness into support for her family, though goddammit... She needs support herself, she's still a child. Edmure, hopefully, will not forget about that & will remain a parent figure for her.
We're coming closer to probably the hardest fucking thing for me to speak about. The execution. I'd like to leave the matter of Hullen Cooper the hell alone if you don't mind, limiting the commentary to one thing — I appreciate his last words being a piece of smug, snarky trash, not begging or whining. I'm not a very big fan of those things. Anything but begging, man, honestly, that just leaves me physically ill. Each time a dying character finds it in himself not to succumb to those in the au, you spare me a lot of emotional pain, Badger, jsyk.
Speaking of last words — man, fuck, you just had to, right? You had to pour more oil in the burning trainwreck my Warrick obsession is. Where do I even fucking start. I honestly have so much to say, that there is no easy answer. Boros. You fuckface. You, the one who did all of this to me, the one to blame for each & every drop of torment this scene brought us. I could see it on his face that he was scared, I could always tell it, throughout the entire time he was on screen, right to the bitter end. And yet again — no begging. No tears. And not only that — last words, that weren't about himself, that weren't a plea for mercy or a wish for Glenmores to burn in hell, but instead — trying to protect Colton, in the only way he had left. It gave me chills. The combination of obvious fear for himself in his every feature & last words, that are about his brother. You fuckface. I hate you & I will always remember you & these words & they are the thing I choose to remember most about you, because of how they were the biggest fucking thing about you that mattered to me, they — and two other lines. A brotherly relationship, that did not exist & that comprises three lines from Boros & one and a half line from Colton throughout the whole au — siblings "house Warrick style". Siblings house Warrick style! — still less fucked up than the Whitehills ;)
As if this was not enough to kill me, the ways in which Randyll managed to scar even his youngest son as well shows here & I am in so many minds about what has happened — in so many minds about Colton & his fate. Come to think of it — there isn't that much we know about Colton. What all that he had to witnessed has done to him, how does he feel about being taken from his family, & this new home, & his brother — holy fucking shit, it destroys me from the inside that I don't know exactly how Colton feels about the whole matter with his brother. If I had to guess, the thing I'd come up with would probably be confused. It must be incredibly hard to process for a child, who, from what we saw, had always wanted to meet his brothers, & so he did now, but in the most fucked up way possible. Did he hear what Boros said before being hanged? Did he understand what he was trying to say & why?.. (given that even I can't answer the last question, I don't know how likely a kid is to.) How did this make him feel? No answers. All up for interpretation (unless you know & decide to tell me, which would be hella welcome, even if it isn't what I want/expect to hear).
Even though Colton is relatively safe for now, I am so worried about him, more specifically — about how growing among the Glenmores will affect him. At the very least, we can give Syrena credit for not forcing him to watch, implying that, while he isn't likely to be loved in this family, he'll still get a fair treatment. And yet, while safe from the abuse he'd be exposed to at the Bastion, he'll have so much emotionally challenging things to struggle with. The possibility of less honorable Glenmore men transferring their hatred for his brother at him. The feeling of not belonging. The possible guilt for his family's deeds. The possible wish that his family wasn't destroyed, because he has some remains of affection left for his parents, & then — experiencing guilt for that? Or perhaps, the opposite — fierce resentment of his Warrick heritage? Or resentment of the Glenmores, because he feels like he does not belong, & therefore — denying the crimes of his family & glorifying whatever memory he has left about them instead? Those are just guesses. No matter what, it is not going to be easy. Does Colton even realize that Boros actually cared about him? While I do hope he does, that could be both heartwarming & difficult for the boy. Would he not be able to fit in even more because of Glenmores' obvious hatred of his brother & them most likely expecting him to silently agree? Or, maybe, after getting to know what good people they are, would he grow to hate Boros too, for the pain he has caused them?.. This part is, admittedly, long & over-the-top, but I simply have too many thoughts & emotions & the subject is indeed touchy. Anyway, I am glad that Colton is where he is now. Not going to lie, I've always fancied the idea of him being Torrhen's ward more, as that environment would likely be a happier one, but I should probably be content with what I have.
The last thing I have to say regarding Colton is that I'm a bit confused about how he ended up at Rillwater Crossing so soon. Was Randyll not yet at the Bastion when they took him from where — and if he was, I find it a little hard to believe he'd just blindly obey the demand to give up the only possible heir to his house. Even if he did, no doubt that it has given him a clue of sorts regarding Torrhen's intentions. Randyll is indeed a smart man & maybe the Warricks won't be as unprepared for this war as the Glenmores seem to expect.
Do not think I have forgotten to speak about Namond. While Torrhen, in my eyes, is the most complicated hero with an established personality, Namond goes through the best change of character in the whole thing. We see him be proud & resentful, we see him make a mistake & pay for it, abandon some of his pride & try to make things right, but still hold onto his past flaws & be haunted by the errors he made. He doesn't just become like that all out of sudden. We see him break down alone & in silence, but that still isn't it. New consequences of his betrayal continue to resurface. He goes through so much, that it's a miracle how guilt does not break him. His decision to leave is the best possible way to end this character arc, no matter how much I would love to see where he'll go & what he'll do. Passing ancestral sword to Kyra, telling her to look out for Ostyn, having that deep, deep pain in his eyes... I wish I had something good to say, but I just don't. Those are great, meaningful details. I've struggled with accepting Namond for who he is a lot, but, after all this, I believe that I forgive him. For everything. I want him to find peace & strength to forgive himself & go back to Meghan who will give him some love. I just want Namond to go to Meg & let her love him & accept him & forgive him. That would be good.
As part comes closer to the end, the one person I have not spoken much about — Syrena, shows us exactly what kind of loss house Glenmore has suffered. I like looking at this part of the epilogue & comparing it with the remade Rillwater scenes from "Sown in Sorrow" — a pretty eye-opening experience, tbh. The warmth that was there isn't any longer. It has been replaced with silent support & endurance, & while I have no doubts, that Glenmores still care greatly about one another, it will never be quite the same for them anymore. There is darkness, & spite, & grief, & Syrena represents the changes her house went through perfectly — which makes sense, with her leading it now. That's one more thing that could've been anticipated — I recall noting the "deathstare" she gave in the part where Namond was telling Talia & Elaena what happened at the Crossing. Part of me knew there was darkness & strength inside of her — Syrena is the "loving mother taking up the warrior sword" trope done right, & I mean absolutely right. I never understood why the loving mother type of character is often taken for a weak/pushover/useless type of person. People who believe that, forgive the language, but are you out of your minds? A mother whose child has been ripped away is a terrible animalistic force to clash with. Where most only see the pure, gentle, absolute love you should always acknowledge what lies beneath the surface — hatred & vengeance & utter lack of mercy. That's what a mother whose child has been taken from her is, that's what she is bound to become when it happens, so never underestimate or trifle with such a thing. You'll have hell unleashed on you. It's hard to watch Syrena being forced to harden & become strong, both a shield between her remaining children & the rest of the world — & a sword, that is to crush Glenmore's enemies. There is no place for pity for "poor, defenseless, soft woman" you'd expect her to become after Errol's death if you only knew the one side of hers that's been shown in part one. There is the sense of intimidation. There is fear. I know she'll remain loving & caring mother — that is a given, a constant, but those outside her family & allies — have every reason to be afraid.
The part is over & we will not see the Glenmore-Warrick war, and part of me is relieved to know we won't, although I'll still be looking forward to you telling us exactly how it all went down. It feels quite natural this way, the readers not getting to see the actual slaughter, but only the promise for it, which is enough to realize what a hell we're in for. I stand by everything I've already said on the matter — I do not consider this war to be a morally right thing. Houses of Stillport will sure as hell be justified in their crusade for retribution & rescue of Sanya Draper & Lynneth Cooper — probably the only good thing to come out of this feud. As for Glenmores? Yeah, that's pretty much the good ol' northern-style vendetta, where you're just like "the man who has wronged me has been punished?.. yeah, sure, but now I'm gonna slaughter his bloodline to boot, bc you know, craving murder of those who aren't responsible is a valid thing". Do not get me wrong, I do believe the plot point to be a realistic & overall good one. I just really hate the concept of this kind of vengeance, but that's my personal opinion. If a thing makes sense for the story — give it to me, no matter how painful. I know you've said that Warricks are pretty much all criminals, Badger, but my mind just refuses to take it this way. Surely there are those who were born Warricks, not exiled to join the house, there are women & children, there are people who just followed the orders given to them, & their fates concern me a great deal.
I wonder how does Syrena feel about the fact, that Torrhen has promised to provide support for Warrick's wipeout. No matter what, the man remains the killer of her husband, & I can't see her ignoring that, although let's be real — getting to him is an impossibility for her. Torr has thrown the people he has wronged a bone in form of the Warricks, the more I think about it, the more I realize that. And that's a smart strategic move. One thing I'm curious about is — how will it feel for him to bring down the man he has squired for, who, as the wiki puts it, was even "something of a father figure to him", who obeyed all of his orders. Not that I think that he & Randyll are close or anything like that, but I can see him at the very least respecting the man. Hopefully, he'll have it in himself not to make a show out of stabbing him in the back, acting as if all this is some sort of game. A death in battle, or a beheading, performed without a smirk on your smug fucking face, Torrhen, can you please provide me with that much?.. Though again, I don't know if he'll take that big a part in the future war. I suppose, you'll provide us with more info about it later, and then I'll be sure.
I believe, I have said all that I had to say about this part. In case I did not state that clearly, I loved it. It was dark, it was meaningful, it chilled me to the bone, made me emotional, gave characters development & did everything a great au part should do. I don't know if there will be more parts of this epilogue, but even if there won't be, I'm glad we got this one, as it does a great job of being a standalone closure for the Glenmore plotline, and fits right with the rest of the au. There are still things I would absolutely love to see covered in the epilogue, even though I don't know which of them you'll include in it if you do decide to make it. I sure as hell hope that Gryff gets a closure — and if this chapter was anything to go by, I'll need to prepare myself for the worst in that case. It'd be nice to see Forresters settling back in at Ironrath, Rodrik coping with his injury, Ryon possibly waking up, Talia getting to know her new siblings, the possible alliance with Ashwoods, Beskha & Sylvi deciding what to do next. I honestly don't know what else the possible epilogue could include — if I had to pick, that'd be what happened to Alanna & Myles, probably in much shorter form than this part. I care greatly about those two & am simply curious. I know I've listed a lot of stuff, Badger, I hope th
Part 4.1
This is the first part I'm putting up as a downloadable .pdf of a full scene - hopefully this inspires more lengthy conversations about a full scene, plus it should help with immersion
I hope that doesn't make you feel overwhelmed. You should take your time & make your decisions about the au — but always know, that I look forward to whatever you'll decide to provide us with. Every plotline is important & lately au posts have been the biggest source of inspiration for me. I've enjoyed it more than anything & talking about this universe made me feel so, so good. Hopefully, it made you feel at least a little bit the same way.
The new format, many pictures at once, did feel refreshing, but I can safely say I enjoy it far better in form of daily posts. You can still feel the way narration is divided into segments & understand where one post would end & another begin. I can't say this was bad or ruined the experience for me, it's just not my favorite style.
It's gone down fairly well with other people - the fact it felt like you could divide the scene into posts is probably because the scene was originally intended to be separate posts. Hopefully my next scene (if I actually come through for you guys) should feel more fluid and less stilted.
(thanks to that great snowfall, seriously, I loved the way it looked & the atmosphere it gave us)
Trust me, that was hell to do. Snow overlays are hard to find and the whole thing took about twice as long as a usual image set.
The first thing I'd like to thank you for is, surprisingly, the presence of Waymar Riverstone. [...] You see, I've stumbled upon his page on the wiki a long time ago & instantly fell in love with that dude. There wasn't much information about him, neither — any indication that we could ever hope to see him on screen. He just had some special look about him — a man in his fifties, but with a smile so warm & even, dare I say, mischievous sparkles in his eye. [...] Such a great thing that it was fixed, because his presence made everything a bit better.
I felt I had to put him in if Hullen was going to be executed. The Glenmores had some right to kill him on behalf of their vassals, but it made more sense for Waymar to be there. I imagine he was friends with Errol, too, as both of them appeared quite wise and calm, only angered when pushed far enough. Waymar was originally going to have more of a role in this scene, involving him speaking with Hullen, but it was going to end with Hullen insulting him and I believed Waymar didn't deserve that - and Hullen didn't deserve the chance to get one last jab in.
By the gods, Ostyn deserves some kindness. [...] Though we haven't had a chance to learn much about Rickon Snow, Waymar is right, I can already tell that — Ostyn will be ten times the man his father was. The way Waymar speaks of the latter is actually quite worrisome for me, for personal reasons — I wonder what has earned Rickon his reputation. I also wonder if Waymar is going to reveal the identity of his father to Ostyn (or did he already? This moment is a little bit confusing, tbh, maybe I'm forgetting something) & what he will do with the information. One thing I know is that I can trust Ostyn to make the right choice.
Ah, but here's the thing. There's multiple meanings to the words "your father is not the man you think he is." Maybe it can be taken as a statement of "your father doesn't have the character you'd expect him to"... but maybe Ostyn has suspicions Rickon Snow is his father and Waymar is planting seeds of doubt in his head. Ostyn's father may literally* not be the man *we've been led to believe he is. Which raises the question, who could he be?
And as for young Ostyn himself, there's a war a-comin'. The eldest Glenmore son has departed and there's a vanguard to be led at some point, so... kid's got some training to do.
Kyra is certainly worth talking about. Though I completely understandable, it's nonetheless painful to see Kyra hardened by this. Having to become tougher, to overcome her fears, it might actually, in a fucked up way, do her a degree of good in terms of growing up... Which does not make it any less painful. She's different now, hopefully with her core the same, but still different. You'd never expect a vengeful side of her to come into play, for her to wish harm upon another — but you can't expect her to be the same innocent meek child either. This is honestly tough to watch, but this is what you knew would happen.
Our Kyra's still in there - she's at a low point, most definitely, but I think she possesses the capacity to bounce back. It's echoed in her parting words to Namond, after all. She tells him to Never Relent and Never Yield, and you can be darn sure she's sticking to those morals herself. Kyra will bounce back, even if she's burdened with a lot more responsibility now. This is her Greyson side coming through and surfacing, just as her mother's has. It's like a defense mechanism (bad time? Greyson mode engage!).
I just hope she can have the strength to transfer her newfound hardness into support for her family, though goddammit... She needs support herself, she's still a child. Edmure, hopefully, will not forget about that & will remain a parent figure for her.
This is why Namond told her to look after herself most of all. He did request her to be strong for her family, but acknowledges she's only a child and doesn't expect her to have to lead the family or anything. As for Edmure, I don't think he's ever been seen without Val in his arms, so the minute he's done with his negotiations with House Overton and Stillport, he'll be back to look after the kids.
Speaking of whom, Edmure was also supposed to have a little bit more characterisation here, but it was cut for similar reasons I cut Waymar's bit with Hullen. Edmure was going to speak with Boros and say some exceptionally hateful words to him, but in the end I decided I couldn't find words that were filled with a sufficient amount of hatred (maybe I should have referenced the anonymous hate I get from time to time). You can still see some of his hatred in his conversation with Syrena - he doesn't question her motives or plans, just asks for more detail so he can do his job. He wants revenge just as much as the rest of House Glenmore, and the guy's a fuckin' scholar.
it destroys me from the inside that I don't know exactly how Colton feels about the whole matter with his brother. If I had to guess, the thing I'd come up with would probably be confused.
That's about the sum of it. He knows the basics of what was happening, but he'd already witnessed Ormund's death - a family member who he was arguably closer to... or at least spent more time around. Boros' death probably meant less to him considering how little he knew him. I'm in no doubt it hurt because that was the last of his brothers - who he had always wanted to meet - but Randyll forcing him to witness his Uncle's death has already hardened him somewhat and instilled the belief that watching death head on makes him stronger. So Randyll got his final 'fuck you, decent parenting!' in.
Did he hear what Boros said before being hanged?
Yes.
Did he understand what he was trying to say & why?
He's only six years old so he didn't understand the true meaning of Boros' words. It could have been 'stay away from me!' for all he knew, and that's probably how he took the words.
Even though Colton is relatively safe for now, I am so worried about him, more specifically — about how growing among the Glenmores will affect him. At the very least, we can give Syrena credit for not forcing him to watch, implying that, while he isn't likely to be loved in this family, he'll still get a fair treatment. And yet, while safe from the abuse he'd be exposed to at the Bastion, he'll have so much emotionally challenging things to struggle with.
I'm going to say I'm cautiously optimistic about the man Colton will grow up to be. It's all very vague, but I want to believe he'll be grow up to be the best man House Warrick has to offer. Living at the Bastion is what fucked up the rest of them, and now that's no longer a factor for little Colton. Maybe if the Glenmores ever let him go (which they probably will) he'll seek out his aunt at a certain old tavern...
The last thing I have to say regarding Colton is that I'm a bit confused about how he ended up at Rillwater Crossing so soon.
Well, we don't exactly know how soon this is. In my head it's at least a month after the truce, if not more, so Colton's had ample time to get there.
Was Randyll not yet at the Bastion when they took him from where — and if he was, I find it a little hard to believe he'd just blindly obey the demand to give up the only possible heir to his house.
Randyll can be fairly... obtuse at times? In my head it went down with Torrhen going up to the Bastion and telling Randyll to give him Colton as he was looking for a page for one of his men. Randyll would jump at the chance to make Colton a proper man (and considering he makes no time for his kids he'd jump even more at the chance to have someone else be a parent for him), and Colton would be on a horse to Highpoint before he even knew what was happening. Torrhen would be conflicted handing the boy over to Syrena, but mothers are his weakness, and he has a foolish amount of faith in them so he'd believe the woman if she personally said she would not bring the boy harm (and she's stood to that).
Even if he did, no doubt that it has given him a clue of sorts regarding Torrhen's intentions. Randyll is indeed a smart man & maybe the Warricks won't be as unprepared for this war as the Glenmores seem to expect.
Randyll might not have a clue yet, but I think he'll slowly put the pieces together. It won't take long for him to start mobilising his own men, even if he's unaware the Whitehills aren't protecting him any more.
Namond goes through the best change of character in the whole thing. [...] His decision to leave is the best possible way to end this character arc, no matter how much I would love to see where he'll go & what he'll do. Passing ancestral sword to Kyra, telling her to look out for Ostyn,
^ make a note of that last statement. Namond doesn't have beef with Ostyn any more, so something good did come out of all of this.
I want him to find peace & strength to forgive himself & go back to Meghan who will give him some love. I just want Namond to go to Meg & let her love him & accept him & forgive him. That would be good.
I don't think Namond's got anywhere else to go. The Oldbarrow and his wife is likely his destination... lord knows how he'll react when he hears the news of her pregnancy. It might be something that brings him back from the edge a little bit. Guy needs some happiness in his life. Arthur's birth might bring him home again.
I'm worried about the post limit so I'll continue this in another post : O
As part comes closer to the end, the one person I have not spoken much about — Syrena, shows us exactly what kind of loss house Glenmore has suffered. I like looking at this part of the epilogue & comparing it with the remade Rillwater scenes from "Sown in Sorrow" — a pretty eye-opening experience, tbh. The warmth that was there isn't any longer. It has been replaced with silent support & endurance, & while I have no doubts, that Glenmores still care greatly about one another, it will never be quite the same for them anymore.
This is a really good observation - one I honestly hadn't noticed. In Pt1, there's an air of warmth and kindness in Rillwater Crossing, but in this scene the place feels cold and dead like winter.
Syrena represents the changes her house went through perfectly — which makes sense, with her leading it now.
I think it's similar to how Rodrik's healing process is indicative of the state of House Forrester during Season 1. He's battered and bruised when the house is weakened, and grows stronger as they get their shit together. Syrena's the opposite - she starts of as a kind motherly figure, then ends as a harsher woman - but still no less a mother - by the end.
The part is over & we will not see the Glenmore-Warrick war, and part of me is relieved to know we won't, although I'll still be looking forward to you telling us exactly how it all went down.
I have a couple of battles in my mind already... it's coming together in my head, I know how it ends pretty much, it's just getting there. I'll be sure to write up some wiki pages once I've decided on it all.
I do not consider this war to be a morally right thing.
Is any war really morally correct, though? Fighting over dead relatives may be slightly more reasonable than murdering people over... trees... XD
Houses of Stillport will sure as hell be justified in their crusade for retribution & rescue of Sanya Draper & Lynneth Cooper — probably the only good thing to come out of this feud.
Darn straight!
As for Glenmores? Yeah, that's pretty much the good ol' northern-style vendetta, where you're just like "the man who has wronged me has been punished?.. yeah, sure, but now I'm gonna slaughter his bloodline to boot, bc you know, craving murder of those who aren't responsible is a valid thing". Do not get me wrong, I do believe the plot point to be a realistic & overall good one. I just really hate the concept of this kind of vengeance, but that's my personal opinion. If a thing makes sense for the story — give it to me, no matter how painful. I know you've said that Warricks are pretty much all criminals, Badger, but my mind just refuses to take it this way. Surely there are those who were born Warricks, not exiled to join the house, there are women & children, there are people who just followed the orders given to them, & their fates concern me a great deal.
I think it goes to show there really are no 'good guys'. The Forresters had their bad'uns... Nestor Greyson eliminated the entirety of House Branfield - and in a way, his daughter's doing the same thing here. Like... the exact same thing:
Son is killed by Branfields, father annihilates House Branfield in its entirety
Daughter is killed by a Warrick, mother decides to try and annihilate House Warrick in its entirety
It's history repeating itself, but I think there's something poetic about it, too.
I wonder how does Syrena feel about the fact, that Torrhen has promised to provide support for Warrick's wipeout. No matter what, the man remains the killer of her husband
Ahh, but Alanna delivered the killing blow to Errol when he and Namond were attacking Torrhen. Torrhen didn't do it himself, and though that doesn't mean much - it's just as much his fault - Syrena will most likely use his forces if he offers them and convinces her he's on her side. That many men is too good an offer to pass up.
One thing I'm curious about is — how will it feel for him to bring down the man he has squired for, who, as the wiki puts it, was even "something of a father figure to him", who obeyed all of his orders. Hopefully, he'll have it in himself not to make a show out of stabbing him in the back, acting as if all this is some sort of game.
It's not like Torrhen would be participating in killing Arys, the truest father figure he ever had, but I'm sure he'd have doubts in the back of his head. Randyll 'raised' him for five years, but he's failed him in more recent times. He failed to capture Rodrik at Morgryn's logging site - a lot of his missions were failures, and then he goes and kinslays and all that crap. Randyll's actions were scatty and all over the place and Torrhen's just lost a lot of faith and trust in him. I can't really put it into words.
There are still things I would absolutely love to see covered in the epilogue, even though I don't know which of them you'll include in it if you do decide to make it. I sure as hell hope that Gryff gets a closure — and if this chapter was anything to go by, I'll need to prepare myself for the worst in that case. It'd be nice to see Forresters settling back in at Ironrath, Rodrik coping with his injury, Ryon possibly waking up, Talia getting to know her new siblings, the possible alliance with Ashwoods, Beskha & Sylvi deciding what to do next. I honestly don't know what else the possible epilogue could include — if I had to pick, that'd be what happened to Alanna & Myles, probably in much shorter form than this part.
I think I've planned to do at least 90% of those things, so you can look forward to that... y'know, if I ever finish this fucking thing. It's a bit of a slog to get through right now but I hope to persevere and finish it
The new format, many pictures at once, did feel refreshing, but I can safely say I enjoy it far better in form of daily posts. You can still… more feel the way narration is divided into segments & understand where one post would end & another begin. I can't say this was bad or ruined the experience for me, it's just not my favorite style.
It's gone down fairly well with other people - the fact it felt like you could divide the scene into posts is probably because the scene was originally intended to be separate posts. Hopefully my next scene (if I actually come through for you guys) should feel more fluid and less stilted.
(thanks to that great snowfall, seriously, I loved the way it looked & the atmosphere it gave us)
Trust me, that was hell to do. Snow overlays are hard to find and the whole thing took about twice as long as a usual image set.
The first thing I'd like to thank you for is, surprisingly, the … [view original content]
The new format, many pictures at once, did feel refreshing, but I can safely say I enjoy it far better in form of daily posts. You can still… more feel the way narration is divided into segments & understand where one post would end & another begin. I can't say this was bad or ruined the experience for me, it's just not my favorite style.
It's gone down fairly well with other people - the fact it felt like you could divide the scene into posts is probably because the scene was originally intended to be separate posts. Hopefully my next scene (if I actually come through for you guys) should feel more fluid and less stilted.
(thanks to that great snowfall, seriously, I loved the way it looked & the atmosphere it gave us)
Trust me, that was hell to do. Snow overlays are hard to find and the whole thing took about twice as long as a usual image set.
The first thing I'd like to thank you for is, surprisingly, the … [view original content]
Waymar was originally going to have more of a role in this scene, involving him speaking with Hullen, but it was going to end with Hullen insulting him and I believed Waymar didn't deserve that - and Hullen didn't deserve the chance to get one last jab in.
Edmure was going to speak with Boros and say some exceptionally hateful words to him, but in the end I decided I couldn't find words that were filled with a sufficient amount of hatred
See, this is one of the main reasons I like talking about the au — because of you mentioning the details of how it was made & how it could've been & what's been cut out. I think, at some point, you could do kind of a "trivia" thing about au's production — tell us about the things you wanted to include but didn't & why, or plot points/small details you have changed. Idk, that's just a suggestion, but I believe something like that could be interesting — readers getting to know what au could've been like.
There's multiple meanings to the words "your father is not the man you think he is." Maybe it can be taken as a statement of "your father doesn't have the character you'd expect him to"... but maybe Ostyn has suspicions Rickon Snow is his father and Waymar is planting seeds of doubt in his head. Ostyn's father may literally not be the man we've been led to believe he is. Which raises the question, who could he be?
Well, this about confirms that I misunderstood that part xD I just thought that Waymar saying "your sentiment is wholly correct" means that he knows Ostyn's father & the man is indeed a scumbag. I didn't quite realize Rickon was rumored to be his dad & that Ostyn already believed he was. Shit, now I'm curious, and already having crazy theories, as usual. Is there any hope for us getting to know his father's true identity in the future?)
And as for young Ostyn himself, there's a war a-comin'. The eldest Glenmore son has departed and there's a vanguard to be led at some point, so... kid's got some training to do.
Ostyn's going to rise through ranks of Glenmores' forces & fight bravely — that I do not doubt. Not to say that it isn't a shame he has a war to fight in even after all the crap that happened, but if he learns that Warricks have captured two innocent girls — I'm pretty damn sure he'll do whatever it takes to aid in rescuing them. That's just the kind of person he is, right?
So Randyll got his final 'fuck you, decent parenting!' in.
Yeaaaah, why do I have a feeling that was also his first & only time? :ь Either way, I have to give him credit for it, I guess.
He's only six years old so he didn't understand the true meaning of Boros' words. It could have been 'stay away from me!' for all he knew, and that's probably how he took the words.
Man, that's sad, honestly, but at the same time, you've managed to calm me down a fair bit regarding Colton. If you, as the creator, tell us he is going to be fine, I believe, it's safe to say he will be. Who knows, maybe when he grows up & recalls those words the realization will sink in. Or at least, that's what I hope will happen. Speaking of which, don't you think it's worth mentioning on Boros' wiki page that he was, how shall I put it, somewhat protective of Colton? Idk man, it just feels like something that needs to be there for me — he's a fairly minor character & that trait of his is somewhat prominent, at least to the same extent that the traits wiki already tells us about. Again, just a suggestion.
Maybe if the Glenmores ever let him go (which they probably will) he'll seek out his aunt at a certain old tavern...
I believe, Taena was exiled from house Warrick far too early for them to know each other? Either way, those two definitely need to meet. From what little we know about her, she's essentially the best person out of all of her family members & Colton deserves to know her & know that his family wasn't an all-around trainwreck. Also, isn't she his cousin, not aunt?
Namond doesn't have beef with Ostyn any more, so something good did come out of all of this.
Oh, believe me, I did notice & appreciate this. The fact that he doesn't is one of the main reasons why I whole-heartedly forgive Namond for all of his previous wrongdoings. I kinda wish the two had a small conversation, so that there'd be no more misunderstanding between them, and Namond maybe even apologized for his men's mistreatment of Ostyn, but I think I understand that it's too early for both of them. I do hope something like that happens in the future, off-screen.
Is any war really morally correct, though?
It can be, I believe, when you're defending your land or rescuing someone, but that's just the intention that's justified — people still do fucked up & unforgivable things at war, hence why it needs to be avoided whenever possible... For example, when you have no good reason to find other than goddamn trees XD
Ahh, but Alanna delivered the killing blow to Errol when he and Namond were attacking Torrhen.
Good point — I honestly just forgot about that.
I'm sure he'd have doubts in the back of his head. Randyll 'raised' him for five years, but he's failed him in more recent times. He failed to capture Rodrik at Morgryn's logging site - a lot of his missions were failures, and then he goes and kinslays and all that crap. Randyll's actions were scatty and all over the place and Torrhen's just lost a lot of faith and trust in him.
Randyll did get his punishment for kinslaying, & idk, for me failures & all that feel like a reason to remove the man from his position or something, not straight up betray him & exterminate his house. But, me & Torrhen, admittedly, have very different opinions about life, so yeah, I'm prepared for whatever he'll have to offer :ь Him & Randyll are worthy opponents, at least, so a war where they are at the opposite sides is going to be something epic to look at.
I think I've planned to do at least 90% of those things, so you can look forward to that... y'know, if I ever finish this fucking thing. It's a bit of a slog to get through right now but I hope to persevere and finish it
I will sure as shit be looking forward to it. For now though, again, take your time, Badger — after all the stuff you've already produced, that feels like a well-deserved thing .)
As part comes closer to the end, the one person I have not spoken much about — Syrena, shows us exactly what kind of loss house Glenmore has… more suffered. I like looking at this part of the epilogue & comparing it with the remade Rillwater scenes from "Sown in Sorrow" — a pretty eye-opening experience, tbh. The warmth that was there isn't any longer. It has been replaced with silent support & endurance, & while I have no doubts, that Glenmores still care greatly about one another, it will never be quite the same for them anymore.
This is a really good observation - one I honestly hadn't noticed. In Pt1, there's an air of warmth and kindness in Rillwater Crossing, but in this scene the place feels cold and dead like winter.
Syrena represents the changes her house went through perfectly — which makes sense, with her leading it now.
I think it's similar to how Rodrik's healing process is indicative of the state of H… [view original content]
Well, this about confirms that I misunderstood that part xD I just thought that Waymar saying "your sentiment is wholly correct" means that he knows Ostyn's father & the man is indeed a scumbag. I didn't quite realize Rickon was rumored to be his dad & that Ostyn already believed he was. Shit, now I'm curious, and already having crazy theories, as usual. Is there any hope for us getting to know his father's true identity in the future?)
Waymar does know Ostyn's real father's identity, but not through personal experience with the man. He's just an outside observer who put the pieces together while Ostyn was squiring for him - think of it like how Torrhen put the pieces together that Myles was Karl's son.
Ostyn's going to rise through ranks of Glenmores' forces & fight bravely — that I do not doubt. Not to say that it isn't a shame he has a war to fight in even after all the crap that happened, but if he learns that Warricks have captured two innocent girls — I'm pretty damn sure he'll do whatever it takes to aid in rescuing them. That's just the kind of person he is, right?
Man, Ostyn rescuing Sanya and Lynneth would be great. I'm not sure what they're up to now considering Cregan is dead, but the torture they had to endure is probably gone. I think the Warricks have forgotten about them, to be honest. Stillport has not.
don't you think it's worth mentioning on Boros' wiki page that he was, how shall I put it, somewhat protective of Colton?
I'll have to remember to insert that. It's hard to remember what you need to add when you have nearly 800 pages to keep track of XD
I believe, Taena was exiled from house Warrick far too early for them to know each other? Either way, those two definitely need to meet. From what little we know about her, she's essentially the best person out of all of her family members & Colton deserves to know her & know that his family wasn't an all-around trainwreck. Also, isn't she his cousin, not aunt?
She's his cousin, yeah. The ages messed me up a bit there... they never knew each other, but Torrhen knows of them both so if Colton is ever released from being a Ward he might find his way to Highpoint and Torrhen will introduce them or something.
I kinda wish the two had a small conversation, so that there'd be no more misunderstanding between them, and Namond maybe even apologized for his men's mistreatment of Ostyn, but I think I understand that it's too early for both of them. I do hope something like that happens in the future, off-screen.
It's a bit too early, but they probably will reconcile at some point.
Waymar was originally going to have more of a role in this scene, involving him speaking with Hullen, but it was going to end with Hullen in… moresulting him and I believed Waymar didn't deserve that - and Hullen didn't deserve the chance to get one last jab in.
Edmure was going to speak with Boros and say some exceptionally hateful words to him, but in the end I decided I couldn't find words that were filled with a sufficient amount of hatred
See, this is one of the main reasons I like talking about the au — because of you mentioning the details of how it was made & how it could've been & what's been cut out. I think, at some point, you could do kind of a "trivia" thing about au's production — tell us about the things you wanted to include but didn't & why, or plot points/small details you have changed. Idk, that's just a suggestion, but I believe something like that could be interesting — readers getting to know what au cou… [view original content]
It was nice of Torrhen to let Myles return home. The path of redemption is never easy, but for what it's worth, he's definitely on the right track. Especially since he didn't kill Gryff and sent him to The Wall instead. Though, I feel bad for Jon Snow once he gets there.
I think Greta should live the wise cracks to her husband. XP
Though, I feel bad for Jon Snow once he gets there.
I think around this point in time Jon could be preoccupied with stab wounds... I'm not 100% on the timeline but Stannis has recently been defeated by the Boltons and Jon's fake death isn't that long after..?
Yo, Badger. So. The review of last part. It has been longer in coming than the previous one, and that is because I find it very hard to talk about this chapter (just making it clear from the very beginning — this is not because I thought it was bad or something like that) (also bc im a piece of procrastinating shit). I've been thinking it through again & again, and several times it has made me so emotional I nearly cried & got too agitated to express my thoughts properly. But in the end? I feel like I really want to talk about it. In the past, when au posts left me with strong emotions, writing everything out really helped sort it out & in the end made me feel better. I'm hoping that this is what's going to happen now, because holding all of this inside is sort of hard. Before we jump in, I would like to give one more fair warning — if at any point through this comment you start getting salty or passive-aggressive vibes from me, know that I don't mean to offend you with them. We all know, weird as this sounds, the writer is not responsible for what his heroes do, so no matter how mad I get during this, bear in mind, I'm not mad at you. At characters, at situations, yes, but not at the creator. I'm just very emotional & feeling very strongly about what has happened here, I hope you understand.
The fun thing about this chapter is how I've been mislead by it twice, which only made the experience more intense for me. When you announced it, I was expecting it to be with Gryff as a "POV", which wasn't true, but I've made myself hella antsy thinking that way. Then, seeing Torrhen, I sort of relaxed, because I didn't think Gryff would make an appearance, and then... Yup, I freaked out, and, as time showed, it was not over nothing. I know how it sounds when I say this now, but I actually sorta guessed that Ashwoods could bring Gryff to Highpoint at some point. That doesn't really count as much of a prediction, because I expected events to unfold entirely different — scene being told from Gryff's point of view, Ashwoods, perhaps, using him as a hostage in some way, or demanding something in return for letting him go, Torrhen laughing off that suggestion, but Ros intervening at some point, shocked & scared by what's going on & leaving him no other choice but to actually cooperate with them & get Gryff back. I've always sort of craved for Gryff & Roslin to meet in the au, so, as you can imagine, it gained one hell of a "aw, fuck, whyyy" reaction from me, when it was so close to coming true, but didn't in the end. Instead though, we got the scene with Greta, which was a great choice as well, so don't think I'm complaining. I'll talk about this part of the scene more, and a lot, but for now, let's start from the beginning.
The scene starts off with what was probably one of the most worrisome parts of the whole Highpoint's plotline for me — with Myles. Boy, did this lad & his situation bother me a lot; it is, however, nice to know that things have worked out surprisingly well for him (I mean, as well as they could work out, with Eddard dying & stuff). That's thanks to, what I like to call, Torrhen's "change of heart" in this scene (remember me saying how Namond's one was the best? yeah, I still stand by it, but Torrhen's certainly was just as well-performed). It makes a lot of sense how we did not see it initially, right after he lost his battle to Talia. Sure, by the time Rodrik awoke, he must've already had some time to contemplate his mistakes, but like hell would he show that in front of those he can't fully trust — as prideful & careful as ever. Now though, with them gone & his family back, the guy can allow himself to drop the act, show his softer side & admit his wrongdoings. It still takes a lot of strength, but the mere fact he does is admirable enough.
Here Torrhen actually voices some of the things Cassie has spoken about on tumblr, about how Myles has a family that cares about him, how Eddard came all that way to save him, while Karl likely wouldn't have even bothered with his child... This does sorta make Torrhen seem more likeable & relatable, I gotta admit. I don't know if he intended to be this way since the beginning & just didn't have the time, when Brothers of the Wolfswood sneaked in, or if he only recently realized all these things; but I gotta give him credit for saying them. It makes me wonder how does Myles really feel about Eddard after all that happened. He surely isn't as pissed as before, but aside from that, does he believe that his father cared greatly about him? Does he forgive Eddard for lying? How mad is he at him for scarring Roslin — I have to assume, that throughout his stay at Highpoint her & Myles could've developed some kind of positive relationship? I don't know, but I hope that in the end Myles is going to prioritize the better memories he has about his father & value them. I also hope that the fact, that he is always welcome at Highpoint, will help with the obvious tensions between Thorntons & Whitehill following the raid of Stillport just as well as Torrhen's aid in the war. It feels important to me that Greta has the chance to remain on good terms with Thorntons despite her marrying a Whitehill. They are her family & I'd hate to see them scorning her for being Torrhen's wife, but hopefully, Myles can convince them not to — I like to believe him & Greta are on good terms as well.
Speaking of Greta, it also makes sense how Torrhen opens up even more once they are alone. The dialogue between them must be one of my favorite things about this chapter, to be honest, because till a certain point, Torrhen's development has been bringing me nothing but sheer, undiluted joy. I love how it connects with the way Torrhen was portrayed in the rp — I recall you writing about him feeling invincible at some point, which really made me wish someone would knock some sense of mortality in him back then. In general, every time au references something roleplaying-related, it makes me so disgustingly happy. And these developments are really friggin welcome ones, not to mention that they are explained perfectly — if anything, things that happen to Greta, Roslin & Karl are the most legit reason. The most interesting change here for me has to be Torrhen's change of attitude towards Karl. While it's perfectly clear why he understands, that he shouldn't make a show out of war & act like no one can possibly oppose him, which clearly isn't fucking true, I'm a bit uncertain about what has made him realize Karl might not be the perfection of a man he used to deem him. Is this because Torrhen's been trying to do things "Karl's way" & act like he would've acted, but the strategy has failed him & jeopardized his loved ones? That'd make most sense to me. Perhaps, when in his head he was going over that "Karl's way", trying to figure out why it was flawed, is the moment when Torrhen started to think more critically about him, and some other negative traits he chose to ignore before became impossible to deny? Torr probably still has a fair bit of admiration for Karl, but it's nice to see him thinking critically. One more sign of him "getting back on the right path" or whatevs.
One thing I really liked about that particular segment was other characters being referenced. First of all, Talia, dammit, Torrhen speaking about Talia? Torrhen admitting that he respects Talia? Give me all that. Give me more of that shit. I'm not kidding, that shit is pure gold. I stand by my words about wanting a "stranded on an island together" au for those two. No other interaction/dynamic between characters in the whole au has ever been that great. Not gonna lie, it'd be great to see them interact in a more "casual" setting, and I don't mean that like a "more fluffy/friendly" one, I simply mean it like a safer one, where they aren't fighting & one isn't feeling threatened by another. Torrhen cracking jokes & being cocky, while still subtly acknowledging his respect for her; Talia being reluctant & confused, but trying to hold herself with as much dignity as possible... Idk what to say about that; simply thinking about it makes me giddy. Who knows, maybe something like that can happen offscreen at that nameday feast Torrhen's mentioned, since Talia is invited. Maybe one day you could write what the event was like for au's wiki or even make a small fic about it... Not trying to pressure you into anything, man, just throwing around suggestions, bc their dynamics got me real good :ь
It was also nice, that sers Arys & Alanna got at least a line of dialogue about them. Torrhen didn't show much emotion regarding his death with the Forresters around, understandably, but I still like to see it affecting him & Greta & them being shown grieving. That man was simply the best house Whitehill had to offer, I don't know, maybe they have someone who can fight better, but there is no denying he was the best man in their service. And he was more than that — he was family for them both, so I like to see it being acknowledged just how damn important he was. As for Alanna — Torrhen may have only mentioned her in passing, but I'm hella curious about the way he feels regarding her fuck up & departure. Hypothetically, right in that moment, was she to show up in front of him, what would he have to say? Would he blame her? Or reassure? I don't really want to make assumptions, because this side of Torrhen is a bit of an unexplored territory for me, but if you could say what you think he'd do, it'd be very appreciated. Somehow, I've grown to be hella invested in Alanna & her fate & her relationship with Torr. Crazy, yeah, I'm surprised myself, but I just crave her returning & being fully accepted back, even if it'll most likely happen off screen (I refuse to believe it's not going to happen, okay???...). She is family, she belongs at Highpoint, and for some reason, I feel rather strongly about that. I like to believe, that possibly discovering her Greyson parentage won't sway her from it. She is in a rather disturbed state & it could cause her doubts, admittedly, but I can only see her making one choice & it is going back. At the same time, I am interested in the way she could react to realizing it was her half-brother she has beaten with a cane. It's kind of a shame there is little to no chances she'd stay on even neutral terms with her siblings — company of someone like Aaron or Hughar could do her some good, as for her & Rhaesa — hell, I'll admit, if they were raised together, I could see them bonding rather nicely? Sadly, this is just some agokaf material, and that'd have to be, like, some hardcore next level agokaf, with literally no animosity between anybody xD
Speaking of members of Torrhen's elite guard, the group has certainly seen better days, am I right? It currently only comprises five men, if Alanna returns it'll be six & Harys' possible position is obviously off the table (I never really believed Torrhen would give it to him even if he succeeded, tbh). I sort of assume Torr prefers to keep ten of them, meaning he'll have to find some new men to fill the gaps, choosing far more carefully than he used to, so that he can be sure their loyalty shall not waver & they won't abuse the power given to them. It really makes me curious about who those new elites are going to be. It'd be cool if at some point we got to know, but again, that's merely a suggestion.)
We are getting closer & closer to the point, where stuff gets intense, in terms of this review turning into a wreck of a train, that carried several tons of salt. Let's put that happy moment to the side for a short while, because before I get to the matter of you-know-who, there is another part of the chapter I found myself unexpectedly enjoying — the Ashwoods. Yeah, I can see that they were meant to be presented as sort of assholes, and in some sense of the word, they sort of are... Not going to lie, some of them are fairly unpleasant, Ashara being one of my least favorite heroes of the au as whole, but you see — I just get some brand of weird charm from them. The mere fact that they didn't kill Gryff while having every reason to is enough to warm me up towards them, if only just a tad. Those guys get a really funny line every now & then, the one regarding bloody trees would probably go on my "top 10 au lines" if I had one. And you know, as cold, menacing & snarky as they appear, house Ashwood has always seemed really interesting to me, in the "how things function among them & what each & every relationship is like" sort of way. It's a given with such a big family, and the wiki does give us a very good insight on all of it's memebers, but sometimes I do wish they got some more screentime (some still can). Just sort of personal preference, but consider me, perhaps not a fan, but a person who acknowledges how complicated & unique this house is & can't help but really appreciate it.
A breathe in, a breathe out, one more futile attempt to calm down & don't be so damn judgmental, and I dive into what we both have been waiting for. Well, admittedly, more so I than you, but still. Gryff fucking Whitehill, the person whose mere presence on screen feels like some goddamn blessing to me. All the good looks were spent onmy asshole, not your smug fucking face, Torrhen. Seriously, even my salt aside, I find it funny how au's Gryff actually looks more handsome to me than the inagme one does. His model looks kinda smoother, his features less rough, and overall, I fail to comprehend, what do you people find so ugly about him?? I seriously don't get it. This doesn't even have anything to do with him being my fave, I can acknowledge it when my faves aren't pretty. Cotter was my absolute biggest fave from the original game & he wasn't good-looking, maybe cute in his own way, but not good-looking. With Gryff I'm just... confused. He looks fine, on par with Torrhen to me, and probably even better than Karl & Ebbert do. Idk man, I just don't get it.
From where I stand, you didn't only get his model right, Badger — I've always been genuinely enjoying the way you portrayed Gryff; not the things that happened to him or what he did, but the way it was handled. In the last scene he is in, I was so damn emotionally torn & didn't know how it actually made me feel. On one hand — Gryff's lines & attitude make me just want to hug you & never let go. Part of me dreaded the possibility of him not having enough strength to hold himself in front of Torr after everything that happened & breaking down; that'd straight up kill me. But boy, I am proud of my son. Look at him. He will not fucking crouch & beg for his mercy. He's had enough of that, enough of that for a bloody lifetime, and now that everything's lost — he has no bloody reason to, he can just spit all the anger he has in his fucking face, because he doesn't care about consequences anymore. Not that it wouldn't be great for Gryff to have sort of a "Ben vs Kenny" scene with Torrhen, just with no apologizing & more yelling about what an asshole the latter is & how he isn't gonna take any of his shit any longer. I understand why it wouldn't fit here realistically though — that'd mean Gryff had overcome all of the fear that's been beaten in him for years & that's just not how it works. And besides, he just seems too tired for that at the moment.
On the other hand, while every second of Gryff being there was heaven, the other side of this encounter fucking grated on me to no motherfucking end. Torrhen Whitehill & his condescending bloody tone. Torrhen Whitehill & his self-righteous goddamn attitude. I would rip that man a new asshole for every single line of dialogue in this if I could, and you know, it also shows perfectly just how delusional about this situation he is. "Because you failed we almost lost everything" — yeah... yeah, buddy, it's okay. It is totally okay for you to drag this man, because he didn't serve you as well as he should've and failed you... It's completely justified. Sure, you put a knife in a person's hand, quite clearly hinting that she is to kill him, but yeah... Even after that, Gryff still owes you a decent service. No questions asked, Torrhen. I can totally see your point. "bloody make something out of yourself" — because me methodically ruining your sanity for a couple decades to no end is the best bloody setup for making something worthy out of yourself one can imagine! Like, what else is to be expected from Gryff after all that if not becoming a noble bloody hero at the Wall, single-handedly slaying the Night's King & becoming the new lord Commander, all while stunning fellow watchmen with his charming & reasonable attitude? "Maybe make a friend or two", since you're clearly still capable of friend-making, despite all the trust & self-worth issues, as well as paranoia, that have been inflicted on you, right? Right??? "I don't fucking care", and that is exactly why you should have no. bloody. say. in Gryff's future, Torrhen. I'm unapologetically salty, and I don't even fucking care how it looks anymore. Gosh diddly darn it, this fucker pissed me off good :/
What has been pissing me off so much about this can probably be described as the following — despite the fact, that Gryff has survived (I think we can all agree that all of the credit for it rightfully goes to Greta?), Torrhen still won. I do not mean that like he won the war (tbh, he actually didn't) or he made it out with less losses than other characters — that's not the point & that's not what I have a problem with. What grates on me is in the whole situation with Gryff he was still a winner. The positions did not change. The power dynamics stayed the way they've always been. He could not have killed him, but he got rid of him, he got to abuse the power he had over him one last time, and even come out like a merciful fucker, who can pat himself on the back , because he did the right bloody thing. Torrhen, I'm sorry, but... You actually didn't.
I repeat, you did not do the right thing when you sent Gryff to the Wall, with your men making sure he can't escape. If you at least advised him to do that instead of just forcing him, and left the choice of where to go & what to do to Gryff, that I could call the right thing, but this simply isn't one. Greta did the right thing — even though she has known Gryff for a literal minute, and had no reason to care, but still did what was right. Come to think of it? If Forresters sent Gryff to the Wall, I'd probably say it was the right thing. If we look into it, after the shitshow he started at Ironrath, after the way he abused Milly, killed his own man and all that, Gryff sort of deserves the Wall? Hell, sending him there would actually be merciful on Forresters' part, because keeping an innocent girl chained & forcing her to kiss a rotting head on a stick can't even be called a retaliation for Gryff's missing eye or dead father. It wasn't even an act of vengeance against Forresters, it was straight up wrong sick shit. And yet, the moment it is Torrhen who gets to punish Gryff, I refuse to admit it was justice. Not after all he's done to him. Not after what Torrhen himself deserves for doing all that to him. It's the epitome of unfair, how after all the abuse he still got to deliver the last blow, the last humiliation, how he got his last victory, got his way, got everything he wanted, even though he never deserved it. He got to keep believing, that Gryff owed him shit "for taking their mother from him" & never got called out on that piece of dogcrap rhetoric by anyone, which makes me assume he'll just remain that way till the day he's dead. That is just... I don't know. That's just wrong.
Neither he deserved the chance of making sure Gryff won't get to see Roslin again. Aw fuck, he didn't even get to say goodbye to her, I realize that now. I want to believe so badly they met on Gryff's way to the courtyard, accidentally stumbled upon each other & had one last hug. Probably never happened, but I don't give a flying one. How is Torrhen going to explain this to Ros, I wonder? Or will it be Greta who'll deliver the news that her uncle will never sneak in to see her again? As if Roslin hasn't been through more shit than she could ever deserve already. I really, really hope that she posseses the same ability to bounce back as Kyra does, though I am not sure — while Kyra has got through loosing a brother, witnessing a battle, getting the news of both her father's & sister's death gradually, which could've prepared & hardened her, Roslin has never really been through bad things before. I can't imagine what a state she must be in now, after realizing her world isn't as safe as she thought, that bad people can still find their way in & even father can't always protect her?.. I just hope this won't affect her too much. Torrhen & Greta are certainly going to cuddle the hell out of her & do whatever it takes to make her feel safe at her own home again, which has to work. And I do believe, that it will.
I'd like to clarify, that as much as it has caused me all these negative emotions & as much as I yelled, I do not consider the plot point to be a bad one & character's actions to be ooc. With how much power Torrhen had over Gryff, this makes sense. With the way humans function, obviously, it would not be realistic if Torrhen got all the bullshit out of his head at once & acknowledged all his mistakes. That makes sense too. I have to admit, that Torrhen did quite a lot of good that day — admitted his wrongdoings, treated Myles fairly, got his priorities straight, respected Gwyn's freedom. Sorry, but I just do not consider this particular deed of his to be the right thing. This is not the new, more progressive Torrhen, it's the old bastard part of him getting his way. And that's fine. Plot points don't become bad ones because of pissing me off. Everything couldn't end fairly. Everyone couldn't be redeemed about their every wrongdoing. Wrong things happen. It's ASOIAF universe this takes place in after all. With that said — I should be grateful Gryff even has a second chance, & while it didn't sound like I am, I'm actually grateful.
Speaking of Gryff... It makes me wonder what is going to happen to him next in the au universe. I don't know. His problems, his attitude & mental issues & trauma are still legit problems that'll keep haunting him; a black cloak doesn't just erase a whole fucked up previous life. There will be consequences, for he is the man that he is, and if anything about him changes, it'll have to change for a reason. With everything he's been through, fairness of this situation probably matters less than just a chance to start anew, without his brothers's abuse — although again, an actual choice would be a far better start. Will things ever work out for him? Maybe. I don't know. I mean, Cley Cerwyn did already offer all the criminals from Castle Cerwyn's cellars in exchange for the Watch letting Gryff go before he has taken the black, but that'd be more of an agokaf scenario (not to say im not gonna add such verse...). As a Gryff roleplayer, I'd say, that you can count on him to try & flee on his way to the Wall & when he's there — try & go before he has taken the vow & would be considered a deserter for it (I'm not sure if that'd work, but I do believe newcomers are given a chance to do that...). In the context of the au though, since he'll likely end up as a watcher indeed — I mean, all the wiki pages already say he is, so I assume that trip to the Wall was a really short one... Who knows what'll happen. Maybe he'll indeed be able to "make friends", and come to think of it — I wonder if he & Astor Greyson could possibly find a common ground? Both are last sons with fierce tempers, and even though that's where their similarities end, I still consider this to be a neat possibility. One day I might even try my hand writing a fanfic, with my interpretation of how Gryff being a watcher went down... No telling, lately I've been terrible with writing, so we'll see about that.
To conclude the topic, this part has just made my belief in one curious asoiaf theory firmer — the one that says, that after the books end & white walkers are defeated, the Watch will no longer be needed & will stop it's existence... Ha. Haha. Hahaha. Guess we're gonna have to wait & see, riiight?.. :] Either way, whether it will or not, Gryff shall forever remain a Whitehill. Torrhen can suck it, with making sure he "never intervenes with them again" & only keeping the family members he personally fancies around. A Whitehill is still a Whitehill, my friend, and that is something you'll never be able to change. I don't care if you believe you've created an entirely new house, where the likes of Gryff don't belong — Highpoint will always be his home & he'll always have as much right to call himself a Whitehill as you do. He's still Roslin's uncle & Edric's, Axel's & Denys's cousin. Nothing is over for him. Not a bloody chance.
This was another great part of this epilogue, Badger. It has caused me a giant mess of different emotions, but that just shows that the investment level was high — pros to the creator. I was angry, sad, relieved, and in the end — happy that you gave us this, that more characters's fates got resolved, that we got more details, more interaction, more development — the development in the au never really stops, doesn't matter if it's the prologue or the epilogue. It just keeps getting bigger & better & that's fascinating to watch. Speaking of it getting bigger, know that I am reading all the new wiki pages, featuring events of the Mother's March, and I do have things I'd like to say about it. Might not be as big as this review, but I certainly will get to it, so perhaps you could post the links to those parts in this thread, so that I comment them? We shouldn't let this thread die, Badger, and you know that!.. xD I mean, longass walls of text on tumblr look less epic than they do here, therefore I really value this platform :ь And even if I'm the slowest piece of poo in the universe, I hope to write more about the au here.
Here Torrhen actually voices some of the things Cassie has spoken about on tumblr, about how Myles has a family that cares about him, how Eddard came all that way to save him, while Karl likely wouldn't have even bothered with his child... This does sorta make Torrhen seem more likeable & relatable, I gotta admit.
You can thank her for that. When I'm stuck for dialogue, she's my first port of call for help. She knows the characters just as well as I do and can give me a perfect idea of where to take a scene; Myles voicing his confusion about Karl was actually one of her suggestions, as was a lot of Greta's dialogue in this scene.
I don't know if he intended to be this way since the beginning & just didn't have the time, when Brothers of the Wolfswood sneaked in, or if he only recently realized all these things; but I gotta give him credit for saying them.
Myles was incredibly sold on the Whitehill thing until Eddard's death. Being told Karl was his dad at such an unfortunate time and to feel little about the man's actual death, then to have the man who had 'lied' to him die and be hit with a ton of emotion confused him but I think it also set him straight - he knew deep down that he was always a Thornton and wouldn't change it. While he accepts his true parentage, he sees Ned as his father even if the man was a bit rough around the edges - especially towards the end.
Does he believe that his father cared greatly about him? Does he forgive Eddard for lying?
I think he does to an extent. Being lied to is never good, but I think Myles is on the path to forgiveness. He's got a sociopath's blood in him, but he's got Ironsmith in him too. He knows justice and fairness and I think Torrhen's words about Eddard coming all this way solidified in his mind that Ned was his 'real' father.
How mad is he at him for scarring Roslin — I have to assume, that throughout his stay at Highpoint her & Myles could've developed some kind of positive relationship?
Myles and Roslin was a relationship I would have liked to explore. In that scene where Torrhen is shown Grag's head I think Roslin was originally going to hold Myles' hand but things ended with them not being in the room at the same time. Offscreen they had a friendly relationship (I think Myles was a bit reluctant to start with given how full-on Ros can be) so I think Myles would be angry at Ned about what he did, but I think it's the only thing he's still sour about. The rest is just confusing for him.
I don't know, but I hope that in the end Myles is going to prioritize the better memories he has about his father & value them. I also hope that the fact, that he is always welcome at Highpoint, will help with the obvious tensions between Thorntons & Whitehill following the raid of Stillport just as well as Torrhen's aid in the war.
I think Myles will have to be a bit of a diplomat between the two houses. Torrhen is all for making amends post-truce and being a massive suck up, but Stillport is harder to convince.
Speaking of Greta, it also makes sense how Torrhen opens up even more once they are alone. The dialogue between them must be one of my favorite things about this chapter, to be honest, because till a certain point, Torrhen's development has been bringing me nothing but sheer, undiluted joy.
Greta and Torrhen is one of my favourite parts of the AU. I love how they're character foils for one another and complete opposites, but they have middle ground where they work really well together too. Through Torrhen, Greta has become stronger and more confident, while Greta has helped Torrhen be a better person (as much as can be done about that fucker given how his own upbringing was complete shite).
I love how it connects with the way Torrhen was portrayed in the rp — I recall you writing about him feeling invincible at some point, which really made me wish someone would knock some sense of mortality in him back then.
Let's be glad Talia exists, then. She did it, she humbled him a bit - and being brought down by a 14-year-old couldn't have helped Torrhen's ego.
The most interesting change here for me has to be Torrhen's change of attitude towards Karl. I'm a bit uncertain about what has made him realize Karl might not be the perfection of a man he used to deem him. Is this because Torrhen's been trying to do things "Karl's way" & act like he would've acted, but the strategy has failed him & jeopardized his loved ones?
Pretty much. The line that was crossed was when Roslin got hurt and things started to unravel. Playing at being Karl worked for Torrhen for a long, long time, but then pretending to be his older brother got his daughter hurt and he had to make the choice to start thinking critically about Karl. Karl was supposed to be perfect, but acting like him got Ros hurt, so Karl couldn't be perfect... and then, of course, Torrhen tries to go back in his head and find instances where Karl wasn't perfect and memories start coming to the surface and the guy realises what a fucking idiot he's been.
Torrhen speaking about Talia? Torrhen admitting that he respects Talia? Give me all that. Give me more of that shit. I'm not kidding, that shit is pure gold. Not gonna lie, it'd be great to see them interact in a more "casual" setting.
Torrhen and Talia is great. I think the two things that Torrhen likes about Talia are A) she bested him in a fight which no one else has done in, what, 12 years? and that she was the one who made the decision to make the truce and was firm about it, while Rodrik's balls shrivelled and he had to look to his little sister for support. Talia's mind was already made up when she spared Torrhen's life, but Rodrik kept faffing about. Torrhen admires the girl's conviction.
I can honestly see him calling her his 'friend' and shit because he admires and respects her so much. Torrhen finds strong women in a world like Westeros great; Alanna, Gwyn, Greta... Talia fits that list too and his words to the Ashwoods state he wants Ros to be strong as well. And Elyse, when she comes along, hoo boy...
At Torrhen's 29th nameday feast, Talia's going to walk through those doors ahead of Rodrik, Elaena and Harrold like she owns the damn place, and Torrhen's going to love every second of that. Every time she glares at him from now on he's going to be like "man, that kid is so fucking cool."
[Arys] was simply the best house Whitehill had to offer, I don't know, maybe they have someone who can fight better, but there is no denying he was the best man in their service. And he was more than that — he was family for them both, so I like to see it being acknowledged just how damn important he was.
Arys was such a good guy. I would've loved to have more reaction to his death (i.e Greta being close to tears and calling him a 'stupid bloody idiot' because she didn't want him to die), but it wasn't the focus of the scene. Rest assured, though, Arys and House Mount will have an excellent send-off, because that guy was like a father to Torrhen and Greta, even if the latter only knew him for a year or so. He's with Rowena and Alayne now... and if you don't know who they are, then that's the tragedy of Ser Arys Mount.
Hypothetically, right in that moment, were [Alanna] to show up in front of him, what would he have to say? Would he blame her? Or reassure?
I think he'd be neutral. I can't see him reassuring her because that's not what their relationship is like, but he wouldn't blame her. It'd just be awkward and he does want her to come home because she's family. She needs her space to realise Torrhen won't lay a finger on her for playing a part in Roslin's injuries or even injuring the Lord himself, and then she'll be home. She needs a sabbatical like Namond does.
Speaking of members of Torrhen's elite guard, the group has certainly seen better days, am I right? It currently only comprises five men, if Alanna returns it'll be six
Yep - Janos Ironsmith, Brandon (who is on thin ice atm - God knows why Torrhen didn't give him up when he had the chance), Olyvar Cottar, Dickon Hawk's-Eye and Rickard of the Barrens. Janos and the last three are pretty chill guys, so any problems in the guard will come from Brandon's direction. I think seeing what happened to Boros and Hullen may keep him in line for a while, though.
Harys' possible position is obviously off the table.
He would've. Torrhen gives credit where it's due (to most people) and would have given Harys a place on the guard if he'd succeeded in his task, but Harys failed, got his head smashed in with a plank of wood and now he's missing. I wonder where he got to...
I sort of assume Torr prefers to keep ten of them, meaning he'll have to find some new men to fill the gaps, choosing far more carefully than he used to, so that he can be sure their loyalty shall not waver & they won't abuse the power given to them. It really makes me curious about who those new elites are going to be. It'd be cool if at some point we got to know, but again, that's merely a suggestion.
I know at least 4 men who will join the Elite Guard at some point. 2 in the near future, 2 around AGOKAF time. A fifth man is a potential candidate, but his loyalties are conflicted. We'll hear about at least one of the new additions by the end of the Mother's March.
There is another part of the chapter I found myself unexpectedly enjoying — the Ashwoods. Yeah, I can see that they were meant to be presented as sort of assholes, and in some sense of the word, they sort of are... Not going to lie, some of them are fairly unpleasant, Ashara being one of my least favorite heroes of the au as whole, but you see — I just get some brand of weird charm from them. The mere fact that they didn't kill Gryff while having every reason to is enough to warm me up towards them, if only just a tad. Those guys get a really funny line every now & then, the one regarding bloody trees would probably go on my "top 10 au lines" if I had one. And you know, as cold, menacing & snarky as they appear, house Ashwood has always seemed really interesting to me, in the "how things function among them & what each & every relationship is like" sort of way.
The Ashwoods are weird. They're bizarre. I love them. Be it Lothor and Delena and their weird open marriage where they can fuck other people like rabbits, or Ashara and her sass (I assume you hate her because she hates Gryff), Remus and his quiet badassery, Dorren and his "milaaaaady" crush on Greta (not sure if you caught him grinning at her throughout his entire time on-screen) or Walder and his almost pacifism. They're a crazy hillbilly northern group of fuckweirdos but I love them anyway.
It's a shame G.Rickon isn't Ostyn's dad. The reality of that lad's biological parentage (much like Myles') is not a happy one.
I do wish they got some more screentime (some still can). Just sort of personal preference, but consider me, perhaps not a fan, but a person who acknowledges how complicated & unique this house is & can't help but really appreciate it.
Me too, but they were minor characters who I didn't even think of introducing until the end of part 2. Who knows what would've happened without them? idk... their role seems like a plot device in hindsight, I'll admit that.
OK, onto the Gryff stuff (in a reply bc post limit)
Neither he deserved the chance of making sure Gryff won't get to see Roslin again. Aw fuck, he didn't even get to say goodbye to her, I real… moreize that now. I want to believe so badly they met on Gryff's way to the courtyard, accidentally stumbled upon each other & had one last hug. Probably never happened, but I don't give a flying one. How is Torrhen going to explain this to Ros, I wonder? Or will it be Greta who'll deliver the news that her uncle will never sneak in to see her again? As if Roslin hasn't been through more shit than she could ever deserve already. I really, really hope that she posseses the same ability to bounce back as Kyra does, though I am not sure — while Kyra has got through loosing a brother, witnessing a battle, getting the news of both her father's & sister's death gradually, which could've prepared & hardened her, Roslin has never really been through bad things before. I can't imagine what a state she must… [view original content]
I find it funny how au's Gryff actually looks more handsome to me than the inagme one does.
Less visible WARTS, man. That was just over-the-top Ugly Character Design 101.
Look at him. He will not fucking crouch & beg for his mercy. He's had enough of that, enough of that for a bloody lifetime, and now that everything's lost — he has no bloody reason to, he can just spit all the anger he has in his fucking face, because he doesn't care about consequences anymore.
Gryff didn't give a shit what happened to him which gave him the strength to be spiteful. The guy was suicidal in that moment because he knew he was beyond fucked, so he just took what little energy he had and threw it at Torrhen in the form of vitriol.
"Because you failed we almost lost everything" — yeah... yeah, buddy, it's okay. It is totally okay for you to drag this man, because he didn't serve you as well as he should've and failed you... It's completely justified. Sure, you put a knife in a person's hand, quite clearly hinting that she is to kill him, but yeah... Even after that, Gryff still owes you a decent service. No questions asked, Torrhen.
Devil's advocate here; they did almost lose everything because Gryff couldn't keep Talia held down, but it's something Torrhen didn't realise until now. It's not something he could have foreseen when he gave her that knife because it was so unlikely. Let's put it this way:
Gryff fails to keep Talia locked up
Talia escapes
Talia reunites with Rodrik and BOTW
Rodrik, Talia & BOTW attack highpoint
Torrhen almost dies
Had Torrhen died no one would have called off the fighting
House Whitehill now led by baby and Greta, who have no knowledge of military strategy.
House Whitehill is vulnerable.
House Whitehill us open to attack
w/o House Whitehill, Gryff's cadet house has nothing to deter enemies from Gryff's house
Basically, without Torrhen a lot of the house falls apart.
I can totally see your point. "bloody make something out of yourself" — because me methodically ruining your sanity for a couple decades to no end is the best bloody setup for making something worthy out of yourself one can imagine!
Torrhen's being as nice as he can here. I was trying to make the point that Greta inspired him to think twice and he means well with his words. He is giving Gryff a chance to do something with his life outside of House Whitehill, which has pretty obviously fucked him up by this point. He's trying to be a good guy - maybe not for Gryff, but for Greta, but the point is that he's making an effort. Torrhen not making an effort would have ended with Gryff either being put in a cell or being executed. He's giving Gryff at least some freedom here, where he can have no fear of being reigned over by Torrhen.
"Maybe make a friend or two", since you're clearly still capable of friend-making, despite all the trust & self-worth issues, as well as paranoia, that have been inflicted on you, right? Right???
The paranoia's certainly something, but the Wall is full of people like Gryff and the guy's not a bad swordsman so maybe he could make a friend who respects his ability. Maybe just an acquaintance, but it's a start. In a way it's no different to being part of Whitehill O.I. I mean... Grag liked him. I think...
despite the fact, that Gryff has survived (I think we can all agree that all of the credit for it rightfully goes to Greta?)
Torrhen deserves credit for being a good husband and respecting his wife's opinion >:|
Torrhen still won. I do not mean that like he won the war (tbh, he actually didn't) or he made it out with less losses than other characters — that's not the point & that's not what I have a problem with. What grates on me is in the whole situation with Gryff he was still a winner. The positions did not change. The power dynamics stayed the way they've always been.
I would argue that the point is that the positions may not have changed, but there aren't positions any more. Torrhen can't hurt Gryff any more. Gryff's out of his jurisdiction. He escaped, even if it was only on Torrhen's command.
Greta did the right thing — even though she has known Gryff for a literal minute, and had no reason to care, but still did what was right.
It's a matter of perspective. Had Greta known what Gryff had done (as you later mention, his abuse of Milly and everything that happened at Ironrath), her opinion may have changed. You can see her conviction when she bluntly states she is glad Hullen and Boros are dead, and they did similar things to Gryff. Maybe if she knew a bit more about the situation, especially about the whole "Asher being killed by Gryff and his men" thing, her opinions may have aligned more with Torrhen's and Gryff's head would've been on a pike next to Hugh's before lunchtime.
If Forresters sent Gryff to the Wall, I'd probably say it was the right thing. [...] Gryff sort of deserves the Wall? Hell, sending him there would actually be merciful on Forresters' part [...] And yet, the moment it is Torrhen who gets to punish Gryff, I refuse to admit it was justice. Not after all he's done to him. Not after what Torrhen himself deserves for doing all that to him. It's the epitome of unfair, how after all the abuse he still got to deliver the last blow, the last humiliation, how he got his last victory, got his way, got everything he wanted, even though he never deserved it.
I think this is where bias against Torrhen factors into things. What have we seen Torrhen do - for a fact - against Gryff? We saw him push him into the mud once and arm a child, suggesting she assassinate him. That's arguably less than what the Forresters did to him. Rodrik planned a full-scale assassination and blinded him in one eye. From what little we know about the actual goings on, Karl was the one who did the worst when Gryff was young. What Torrhen actually did to Gryff as a child... we have no idea, but considering Karl was the brains of the operation, I think Torrhen's participation would have only amounted to punches, kicks and pushes.
And yet... Ebbert was into emotionally manipulating Gryff which is arguably worse than bruises, but he gets a pass because he's not Torrhen. The second Torrhen makes an attempt at trying to do the right thing it's not allowed because it's him.
Torrhen's not a good man, let me make this clear. Not at all. But you've gotta at least afford him the chance of trying to be one. Even if you hate him, let him try for Greta.
He got to keep believing, that Gryff owed him shit "for taking their mother from him" & never got called out on that piece of dogcrap rhetoric by anyone, which makes me assume he'll just remain that way till the day he's dead. That is just... I don't know. That's just wrong.
But if he's started questioning Karl, the guy who taught him that idea, don't you think he'll start questioning that one day? Though I doubt any apology or attempt to be better will ever be seen as enough effort.
Neither he deserved the chance of making sure Gryff won't get to see Roslin again. Aw fuck, he didn't even get to say goodbye to her, I realize that now. I want to believe so badly they met on Gryff's way to the courtyard, accidentally stumbled upon each other & had one last hug. Probably never happened, but I don't give a flying one.
I s'pose we know what Ros is like. She sneaks out all the time - first into the Great hall when Grag's head is on the table, again when she goes missing and ends up being found by Ned. I can say she probably did bump into Gryff or something, especially if she was getting her scar checked on; Gryff's heavily injured from that fall so he'd need to be seen by a Maester before he departs. I've always liked the idea of Roslin pointing out that they 'match' with her scar and his eye.
How is Torrhen going to explain this to Ros, I wonder? Or will it be Greta who'll deliver the news that her uncle will never sneak in to see her again?
Gryff's been out of Ros's life for three years at this point, if not more - the War of the Five Kings, then Harrenhal, then the Ironrath Garrison and finally House Whitehill of Ironrath. This is his first time home since he left in 299 AL (or earlier)... so I think she's dealt with it by this point XD
Roslin has never really been through bad things before.
She dealt with Ludd's death, and she was close to her big fat grandpappy.
I can't imagine what a state she must be in now, after realizing her world isn't as safe as she thought, that bad people can still find their way in & even father can't always protect her?.. I just hope this won't affect her too much. Torrhen & Greta are certainly going to cuddle the hell out of her & do whatever it takes to make her feel safe at her own home again, which has to work. And I do believe, that it will.
Looking back she wasn't all that distressed even when she had an open wound on her face. Kids are more resilient than they're given credit for. Of any type of person, I think children are the most adaptable and adults may worry too much about them. Look at Talia and how she adapted through season 1 - she coped better than Elissa did.
I'd like to clarify, that as much as it has caused me all these negative emotions & as much as I yelled, I do not consider the plot point to be a bad one & character's actions to be ooc.
I'd also like to clarify that I don't mean any harm by my responses to your points. It's a discussion and we're both passionate about it. You may well be biased against Torrhen, but I've been writing the smug prick for over a year and a half now so I'd say I'm probably biased in his favour.
I have to admit, that Torrhen did quite a lot of good that day — admitted his wrongdoings, treated Myles fairly, got his priorities straight, respected Gwyn's freedom. Sorry, but I just do not consider this particular deed of his to be the right thing. This is not the new, more progressive Torrhen, it's the old bastard part of him getting his way. And that's fine.
Yeah... Torrhen's still a 'villain', I suppose, but he's only just begun his path to reform, even if it's believed he doesn't deserve to reform. Maybe one day he can be a better man for his wife and kids.
Everything couldn't end fairly. Everyone couldn't be redeemed about their every wrongdoing. Wrong things happen. It's ASOIAF universe this takes place in after all. With that said — I should be grateful Gryff even has a second chance, & while it didn't sound like I am, I'm actually grateful.
Yep, it's Thrones after all. Gryff escapes, but with a life sentence looming over him. It's supposed to be... bittersweet, I suppose?
Speaking of Gryff... It makes me wonder what is going to happen to him next in the au universe. I don't know. His problems, his attitude & mental issues & trauma are still legit problems that'll keep haunting him; a black cloak doesn't just erase a whole fucked up previous life. There will be consequences, for he is the man that he is, and if anything about him changes, it'll have to change for a reason.
Unfortunately counselling doesn't exist in Westeros. The common form of self-help I've been giving the characters is a sabbatical. Time alone or with fresh scenery can help clear the mind. That might do well for Gryff.
Cley Cerwyn did already offer all the criminals from Castle Cerwyn's cellars in exchange for the Watch letting Gryff go before he has taken the black
Was this an RP thing? I don't check my blogs enough...
As a Gryff roleplayer, I'd say, that you can count on him to try & flee on his way to the Wall & when he's there — try & go before he has taken the vow & would be considered a deserter for it (I'm not sure if that'd work, but I do believe newcomers are given a chance to do that...).
I think Season 1 Gryff would have tried to run, but AU Gryff is going with the flow at this point. He's just seeing where the tide takes him because he has no energy to do anything else.
In the context of the au though, since he'll likely end up as a watcher indeed — I mean, all the wiki pages already say he is, so I assume that trip to the Wall was a really short one... Who knows what'll happen.
I know what'll happen XD I might detail it at some point. A basic outline of Gryff's life on arrival at the Wall might help set the stage for the fic you suggested you might write.
Either way, whether it will or not, Gryff shall forever remain a Whitehill. Torrhen can suck it, with making sure he "never intervenes with them again" & only keeping the family members he personally fancies around.
I mean... Torrhen's bringing the cousins and Nolla home and they have a poor relationship. He's going to try and make amends with them, at least.
This was another great part of this epilogue, Badger. It has caused me a giant mess of different emotions, but that just shows that the investment level was high — pros to the creator. I was angry, sad, relieved, and in the end — happy that you gave us this, that more characters's fates got resolved, that we got more details, more interaction, more development — the development in the au never really stops, doesn't matter if it's the prologue or the epilogue. It just keeps getting bigger & better & that's fascinating to watch.
I'm glad you enjoyed it for the most part, even with the salt. It's good to see someone as passionate about my work as Cassie and I are : )
Speaking of it getting bigger, know that I am reading all the new wiki pages, featuring events of the Mother's March, and I do have things I'd like to say about it. Might not be as big as this review, but I certainly will get to it, so perhaps you could post the links to those parts in this thread, so that I comment them?
Sure thing, I'll link them when the whole thing is written out. I've written three out of the seven-ish major events I intend to cover.
We shouldn't let this thread die, Badger, and you know that!.. xD I mean, longass walls of text on tumblr look less epic than they do here, therefore I really value this platform :ь And even if I'm the slowest piece of poo in the universe, I hope to write more about the au here.
I hope to write more too... I need to finish the epilogue, it's just...
Here Torrhen actually voices some of the things Cassie has spoken about on tumblr, about how Myles has a family that cares about him, how Ed… moredard came all that way to save him, while Karl likely wouldn't have even bothered with his child... This does sorta make Torrhen seem more likeable & relatable, I gotta admit.
You can thank her for that. When I'm stuck for dialogue, she's my first port of call for help. She knows the characters just as well as I do and can give me a perfect idea of where to take a scene; Myles voicing his confusion about Karl was actually one of her suggestions, as was a lot of Greta's dialogue in this scene.
I don't know if he intended to be this way since the beginning & just didn't have the time, when Brothers of the Wolfswood sneaked in, or if he only recently realized all these things; but I gotta give him credit for saying them.
Myles was incredibly sold on the Whitehill thing until Edd… [view original content]
While I'm writing out the response to the discussion of the previous part, I thought I'd just point out, that, I believe, Greysons are going to appear in this scene... & now I'm just gonna sit here & wait to find out whether I guessed right or not :ь
He's got a sociopath's blood in him, but he's got Ironsmith in him too.
I can't say I think, that "sociopath's blood" matters here — as you yourself said, Roslin has Warrick's blood in her, but her personality is fully determined by the good upbringing. If anything, witnessing the raid of Stillport & being imprisoned by Warricks could have hardened Myles & brought darker side of him out, but if he never knew Karl or the way he were, I don't think the man could really influence him much? I don't know if disorders such as sociopathy can really be inherited, but to me it seems pretty unlikely.
Rodrik's balls shrivelled and he had to look to his little sister for support. Talia's mind was already made up when she spared Torrhen's life, but Rodrik kept faffing about.
Oookay, as much as I'm not a big fan of Rodrik, I feel like I gotta defend him here a bit xD Looking to his sister for support wasn't a weakness, from where I stand. If anything, it felt to me like Rod has admitted he has fucked up & wasn't making very good decisions lately, so he looked for advice of someone he trusted & respected. Admitting that he is wrong & Talia can possibly make a better decision must've taken some inner strength. It sort of reminded me about the time my Rodrik accepted Talia's help in ep 2 & she helped him walk through the courtyard. Idc if the garrison took it for weakness, my Rodrik wasn't ashamed of his sister's help, because he didn't see her as just a child, as someone insignificant. He had the confidence to rely on her & that was his strength, no matter how it looked like.
At Torrhen's 29th nameday feast, Talia's going to walk through those doors ahead of Rodrik, Elaena and Harrold like she owns the damn place, and Torrhen's going to love every second of that.
Wait, so Harrold's already going to be born by that time & they'll bring him along? Mannn, I'm getting more & more interested in that nameday feast. I wonder how Elaena is going to handle facing her father's killer (assuming Alanna will return by that time already, it's in a couple of months after all, I believe she'd already come back by that point). Who knows, perhaps by then, after Torrhen's help during Mother's March & an Ironwood Alliance with the Forresters, Whitehills won't be seen as that bad by Forresters & Glenmores? At some point, that event absolutely needs to be covered on the wiki!
He's with Rowena and Alayne now... and if you don't know who they are, then that's the tragedy of Ser Arys Mount.
His wife & daughter, yes. It's good to know ser Arys had a "substituent family" of sorts, that he found the strength to care so much about someone even after such a loss. Perhaps being a father figure to Torr & Greta helped him cope with the tragedy better? A lot of people simply wouldn't have it in themselves to as much as go on after loosing everything the way he did, much less remain a good person. Shows just how damn strong he was.
It'd just be awkward and he does want her to come home because she's family. She needs her space to realise Torrhen won't lay a finger on her for playing a part in Roslin's injuries or even injuring the Lord himself, and then she'll be home.
Alright, looks like I'm giving Torrhen credit one more time... Just bc I suddenly turned out to be Alanna trash & feel protective of the rude daughter :ь
Harys failed, got his head smashed in with a plank of wood and now he's missing. I wonder where he got to...
You know, I sort of assumed he just passed out, got locked up with the rest of the garrison (since I don't think that hit could kill a giant like him, tbh) & is waiting to be executed by the Foresters. Now you've made me curious! Could he possibly wake up & escape before the battle was over? Where would he go in that case? Or perhaps some memory loss scenario occurred because of his head injury & now he just wanders, confused about wtf is going on? Shit, now I want to know what happened to him DX
This also reminded me — I wonder what is going to happen to the remains of house Whitehill O. I., I mean the surviving soldiers, given that sending them to the Bastion for their failure is no longer an option. I have a very, very bad feeling now & feel protective of my bunch of trash sons. Their fates will probably be revealed in Forrester's part of the epilogue & now I'm scared for them ;-;
Ashara and her sass (I assume you hate her because she hates Gryff)
I believe, I have once mentioned it when ranting in the tags of one of au's posts, that I don't dislike her because she hit Gryff or anything like that. If anything, that's probably the one aspect of her I can understand & accept. I mean? If I was in her position, I'd probably hate the man who imprisoned me too? But aside from that, I just can't stand her. The attitude, the bossy nature... everything. It's irrational, in fact, because she hasn't even done anything that could cause me to hate her — aside from, perhaps, the plot to trick Gryff & reclaim Ironrath, but I assume that Ashwoods as whole were behind that scheme, not just her alone? There are other heroes in the au, whose attitudes grate on me, but most times I've been able to find something at least a bit likeable or redeemable about them, so that while annoying me, they didn't deserve my hate. But with Ashara? Idk, I just don't see it. Nothing she says or does makes me even remotely get behind her.
Dorren and his "milaaaaady" crush on Greta (not sure if you caught him grinning at her throughout his entire time on-screen)
Admittedly, I did not notice that, aside from the "milaaaaady" comment at the very end.... And now I don't know how to feel about this, tbh, should I be disturbed? xD Bc I sorta am a little bit...
Walder and his almost pacifism
Hello, that is something I believe hasn't yet been mentioned in the au or on the wiki? Congratulations, now I'm even more invested! Hopefully, if we get a Forrrester epilogue, this guy is going to appear. This type of character is something I need more of.
w/o House Whitehill, Gryff's cadet house has nothing to deter enemies from Gryff's house
Well, I mean... Weren't things already this way with Torrhen in charge? It was clear house Whitehill of I. O. would not get any help from him to fight off Gared, or Ashwoods, and it wouldn't take long for any other possible enemy to realize Whitehills don't give a shit about the cadet branch & it's safe to attack it. Them simply being associated with the main line of Whitehills could only deter foes for a very short time. And again, I'm sort of getting a feeling Ashwoods knew about the way things are between Gryff & Torrhen, hence why they gave him back — not out of mercy, but because they figured this would be worse than death for Gryff. Makes me assume, that the enmity between him & Torrhen is sort of a common knowledge in the North.
I mean... Grag liked him. I think...
Really? I sort of always thought it was the opposite, since the wiki states he was one of the few to question Gryff, meaning he realized what a pathetic leader he made. On the other hand, it does make sense, as Grag seemed to be the only one who actually tried to serve house Whitehill of I. O. & make a decent job out of it & even seemed kinda loyal to Gryff to me. Seriously, I loved that man, & you just made me love him even more. Randyll's sons make me miserable & cause me suffering & I love them.
Torrhen deserves credit for being a good husband and respecting his wife's opinion >:|
Point taken. I believe, I didn't pay that much mind because I didn't expect him to do anything different — he's always respected Greta & been a good husband to her, and I honestly can't imagine that changing under any circumstance.
I would argue that the point is that the positions may not have changed, but there aren't positions any more. Torrhen can't hurt Gryff any more. Gryff's out of his jurisdiction. He escaped, even if it was only on Torrhen's command.
Yes, that's a valid argument as well. The part about it being on Torrhen's command is what bothered me in the first place, I believe. It's sorta of like — the war they've been fighting is over, but Torrhen still won it. He can't give Gryff orders anymore, but his whole life from this point on is going to be fulfilling his last order. If he just fled, the "war" would've ended on his terms, through his deed, and that would feel more like he is free now. For now, it feels like he didn't truly escape — Torrhen's still influencing his very existence in a very significant way. Who knows, perhaps it won't feel like that when he's at the Wall, or perhaps that's just the way I feel, not even Gryff himself. Maybe he doesn't even care & is just content with being out of Torrhen's reach.
Gryff's head would've been on a pike next to Hugh's before lunchtime.
Wait, I thought Hugh's remains were burnt? Otherwise it'd be a bit unlikely for his head to still be intact, after rotting for about a month while being pecked at by ravens xD But again, Asher's head looked okay three months after his death, so everything's possible.
I honestly have trouble imagining how things would've ended in the scenario where Torrhen would put Gryff's head on a pike, namely, because Roslin would likely get to know. Even if she has accepted, that Gryff can't stay with them at Highpoint, I remember how much it has hurt her in the rp that he died & Torrhen was happy, which makes me wonder — how would it make her feel if Torrhen himself was the one to kill Gryff or even order it? In this part we can see, that Torr isn't that clueless about how she feels about her uncle. It makes it sorta hard to imagine him actually executing Gryff, tbh, merely because it would upset Roslin & put a much bigger wedge between them than forbidding her to send letters to the Wall ever could. When I wondered how Torrhen would explain Roslin that Gryff's no on the Wall, I actually meant it more like "how would he explain, that he has sent him there", not "how he would explain that Gryff won't be coming back".
I think this is where bias against Torrhen factors into things. What have we seen Torrhen do - for a fact - against Gryff? We saw him push him into the mud once and arm a child, suggesting she assassinate him. [...] Torrhen's participation would have only amounted to punches, kicks and pushes.
When measuring the damage done to Gryff by Torrhen, I've taken into account the stuff from the rp & wiki, as well as, of course, the au scenes themselves. It clearly states, that Gryff's fear of Torrhen is even stronger than the hatred he has for him, which isn't a good sign. In the rp, it says how Torrhen took part in forcing him to wear a dress & things like that, making me assume, that even if Karl came up with the ideas of what was to be done, Torrhen was mostly the one to execute them, which, in Gryff's mind, must've made him the "main", most significant tormentor.
There is also that scene in the au, which, for me, is the most important one in the whole Gryff-Torrhen dynamic — the one where the latter stabs out Derrock's eye. You see — yes, he is punishing a deserter, but how is he doing that? He could cut off some body part of his, kill him, send him to the Wall, and do that before they even were at Ironrath — but he goes for the eye & I believe this to be no accident. I have a feeling, that after loosing his own eye, Gryff's reaction to witnessing significant eye trauma is similar to, say, the way an arachnophobe reacts to being shown a giant spider. It is... pretty triggering. I think, Torrhen understands, or, more likely, guesses that too, and that is why he did what he did. He wanted the sight to disturb Gryff right to the core & ignite even more terror. That's what made me assume he is as capable of manipulation & twisted ways of tormenting him as Karl or Ebbert, but idk, maybe I'm looking too deeply into things.
And yet... Ebbert was into emotionally manipulating Gryff which is arguably worse than bruises, but he gets a pass because he's not Torrhen.
You know what, Badge? Thanks for saying that. Really. As you can imagine, I think about the dynamics between Whitehill brothers a lot, and the one that I've never really mentioned is Gryff & Ebbert. I don't feel too comfortable voicing it, because sometimes it feels like Ebbert is treated like some can-do-no-wrong, pure being by most people, but the thing is — he is still to blame for that abuse, and as you have said, his part in it was, maybe, more significant than Torrhen's, not less. For me, as much as he can be a good person, he does not get a pass for that & I don't believe that he shouldn't be held accountable if Torrhen should be. Either it's both of them, or neither, it just wouldn't be fair any other way. And yes, while Ebbert feels guilty for what he did to Gryff, it basically means nothing if he doesn't even try to voice it, or apologize, or influence Torrhen & convince him to try & see things the same way he does. Sparing Gryff's life & giving him a chance to start anew at the Wall might not be a magic ticket to forgiveness for years of abuse, or maybe even the right to do, but it's something. Out of all three brothers, Torrhen is the only one who has done anything, so if any of them deserves the merest credit, it is him.
But if he's started questioning Karl, the guy who taught him that idea, don't you think he'll start questioning that one day? Though I doubt any apology or attempt to be better will ever be seen as enough effort.
Well... Hold on there. An apology? ...If we're being honest, with the way Torrhen was portrayed, I've always thought that he can reconsider many things, but Gryff's case wasn't one of them. Are you saying, that if he has started questioning Karl, he is capable of admitting he was wrong in the entire Gryff situation? Capable of an apology? Because again, I've never considered him to be capable of one. I always liked to imagine scenarios where it could happen, but always kept in mind, that it's not even an agokaf kind of thing, but just straight up an impossibility. If that did happen one day though... I don't know whether it can be measured if it's enough effort. Maybe no possible kind of effort would be enough at this point, with the damage already done. But if Torrhen did apologize? I can safely say, that he would instantly gain my respect. I have no idea whether Gryff would forgive him or not (if we're being honest, I have a feeling he would just start laughing), but I can safely say I'd respect that. Surely, it'd take an enormous amount of strength — Torrhen himself says he has trouble admitting his mistakes, and that mistake is a big one. But that'd be the right thing. A step in the right direction. And while Gryff would not be obliged to accept it, it'd still be a gigantic achievement in Torrhen's growth as a person & redeeming himself, and I would respect it a lot (granted, of course, that it wouldn't be some bullshit like "sorry that u killed our mom, lol, u kno, ur still 2 blame, but eh, idk, sorry bout dat, kek", but a serious one instead).
I s'pose we know what Ros is like. She sneaks out all the time - first into the Great hall when Grag's head is on the table, again when she goes missing and ends up being found by Ned. I can say she probably did bump into Gryff or something, especially if she was getting her scar checked on; Gryff's heavily injured from that fall so he'd need to be seen by a Maester before he departs. I've always liked the idea of Roslin pointing out that they 'match' with her scar and his eye.
I can't comment this, I'll just go & cry now, alright? Bless you, Badger, bless you, my noble ttgot lord, for this being canon. And one more extra blessing for getting Gryff to the maeser, because this needed to happen all this bloody time & I can only rest peacefully now that I know it did in the end.
Gryff's been out of Ros's life for three years at this point, if not more - the War of the Five Kings, then Harrenhal, then the Ironrath Garrison and finally House Whitehill of Ironrath. This is his first time home since he left in 299 AL (or earlier)
What about the time he was home after the traitor helped the garrison escape? In the rp they interacted then & it'd make the most sense if it was canon to the au, I think? If he was home & Torrhen still wasn't (or was he? i don't remember, tbh), Gryff would definitely check on her, and even if Torrhen has already returned, he'd sneak behind his back, as usual, lmao.
She dealt with Ludd's death, and she was close to her big fat grandpappy.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that, good point! (not as good as Ludd being called "grandpappy" tho...) I think, you may be right about children coping better & I especially hope it's so for ttgot children, cuz there is no irl child I'd feel that strongly about xD Ros does seem to be holding okay, and I wonder how much did she even understand about what was going on & being said around her. I wonder how she's going to interact with the Forrester family at Torr's nameday feast after all that, but I do hope it'll give Rod a shit ton of guilt for as much as considering killing this precious cinnamon roll for some bullcrap revenge.
I'd also like to clarify that I don't mean any harm by my responses to your points. It's a discussion and we're both passionate about it. You may well be biased against Torrhen, but I've been writing the smug prick for over a year and a half now so I'd say I'm probably biased in his favour.
I don't think you have, at any point, gone overboard or been too harsh though? If anything, I'm the one who was far more salty, so there is no hard feelings.
It is good that you are biased in Torrhen's favour, given that many others aren't. It's good when a creator loves his heroes, antagonist or protagonists — that should be so in a good story, I believe. Gwyn isn't one of your faves — and in the au I never really cared about her, even if she's one of my favorite ingame characters & her portrayal was very canon & made a lot of senses. By the end of the game, I was starting to care less about Talia, and in the au she became one of my favorites again, like in first episodes, even though you portrayed her with regard for the canon too. It matters how you feel about the characters, and it's because you cared about Torrhen he came out so complicated & interesting.
Yeah... Torrhen's still a 'villain', I suppose, but he's only just begun his path to reform, even if it's believed he doesn't deserve to reform. Maybe one day he can be a better man for his wife and kids.
By this point, I don't know if you can even call Torrhen "a villain", tbh. I believe, most readers don't see him as such & I must be the only one to have significant beef with him about something — and those who do dislike him do it for different reasons than I. Guy has his fanbase & receives far less hatred than he could. People like Cregan can be seen as "villains", having absolutely no redeeming qualities, but Torrhen's just a person, and while for me his flaws mean a lot, I don't consider him to be a monster or anything like that.
Was this an RP thing? I don't check my blogs enough...
Hasn't yet been featured in rp, but me & Cley's mun have talked over Skype, & he says Cley would really try to rescue Gryff if the latter allowed it. Hear that, Torrhen? Gryff does already have friends, at least one friend. In that verse he's gonna let Gryff come back to his senses at Castle Cerwyn, bc Cley is just that type of guy when it come to his friends. He sort of treats them like family after loosing his own, so you can count on him to at least pay Gryff visits when lord's duties allow him.
I find it funny how au's Gryff actually looks more handsome to me than the inagme one does.
Less visible WARTS, man. That was just o… morever-the-top Ugly Character Design 101.
Look at him. He will not fucking crouch & beg for his mercy. He's had enough of that, enough of that for a bloody lifetime, and now that everything's lost — he has no bloody reason to, he can just spit all the anger he has in his fucking face, because he doesn't care about consequences anymore.
Gryff didn't give a shit what happened to him which gave him the strength to be spiteful. The guy was suicidal in that moment because he knew he was beyond fucked, so he just took what little energy he had and threw it at Torrhen in the form of vitriol.
"Because you failed we almost lost everything" — yeah... yeah, buddy, it's okay. It is totally okay for you to drag this man, because he didn't serve you as well as he should've and failed you... It's co… [view original content]
I know what'll happen XD I might detail it at some point. A basic outline of Gryff's life on arrival at the Wall might help set the stage for the fic you suggested you might write.
Hmmm, lemme guess, since we can't know what'll happen to the Wall & Watch after the war with white walkers, for you to give us an outline of Gryff's life it'd have to end pretty damn soon... Or am I just being paranoid? What d'ya say, Badger? (: (: (:
I mean... Torrhen's bringing the cousins and Nolla home and they have a poor relationship. He's going to try and make amends with them, at least.
I don't think Torrhen or other Whitehills have actually done anything bad to the cousins, so it'd be less making amends & more — trying to start a new, positive relationship? From what I know about them, it'd go smoothly with Edric & Denys, but Axel, the middle one, might be trouble. He & Gryff actually had a good relationship, because of their similar tempers, they understood each other well, and his mun says the guy is going to be mad when he learns Gryff was sent to the Wall. I wonder how Torrhen can try & make things smoother between himself & the lad. But hey, at least Gryff has one more person to send him letters and possibly visit.
I hope to write more too... I need to finish the epilogue, it's just...
other... things.... have captured...
my interest...
I believe in ya, Badger! And solemnly swear to comment everything you provide us with) Sorta curious about what "other things" are, would you give me a hint? At least the fandom? You don't have to if you don't want to, of course.
He's got a sociopath's blood in him, but he's got Ironsmith in him too.
I can't say I think, that "sociopath's blood" matters here —… more as you yourself said, Roslin has Warrick's blood in her, but her personality is fully determined by the good upbringing. If anything, witnessing the raid of Stillport & being imprisoned by Warricks could have hardened Myles & brought darker side of him out, but if he never knew Karl or the way he were, I don't think the man could really influence him much? I don't know if disorders such as sociopathy can really be inherited, but to me it seems pretty unlikely.
Rodrik's balls shrivelled and he had to look to his little sister for support. Talia's mind was already made up when she spared Torrhen's life, but Rodrik kept faffing about.
Oookay, as much as I'm not a big fan of Rodrik, I feel like I gotta defend him here a bit xD Looking to his sister for support wasn't a weakness, from wh… [view original content]
Mediafire hates me for some reason so this one's up on Mega.
I've split the Forrester parts thanks to my dying motivation, so you guys will get as much content as possible even if I don't have the drive to finish the whole thing.
I can't say I think, that "sociopath's blood" matters here — as you yourself said, Roslin has Warrick's blood in her, but her personality is fully determined by the good upbringing. If anything, witnessing the raid of Stillport & being imprisoned by Warricks could have hardened Myles & brought darker side of him out, but if he never knew Karl or the way he were, I don't think the man could really influence him much? I don't know if disorders such as sociopathy can really be inherited, but to me it seems pretty unlikely.
Sociopathy can be inherited. Though I don't think Myles is a sociopath, he's probably inherited some sort of condition from Karl. Roslin is Taena's biological daughter and I don't think she the latter was born with any mental conditions that could be inherited by the former.
It sort of reminded me about the time my Rodrik accepted Talia's help in ep 2 & she helped him walk through the courtyard. Idc if the garrison took it for weakness, my Rodrik wasn't ashamed of his sister's help, because he didn't see her as just a child, as someone insignificant. He had the confidence to rely on her & that was his strength, no matter how it looked like.
I always pick to accept Talia's help because I hate the possibility of upsetting her. I don't think accepting her help is anything to be ashamed of either, and it still gets the job done (the job being telling Grag/Generic soldier to shove it).
Wait, so Harrold's already going to be born by that time & they'll bring him along?
Yeah, at this point my timelines are fucked so I just decide when characters are born because it'd be interesting rather than keeping track of time. Karl should be 1-2 years old but telltale didn't bother giving me models for characters that age so he's permanently a baby.
This also reminded me — I wonder what is going to happen to the remains of house Whitehill O. I., I mean the surviving soldiers, given that sending them to the Bastion for their failure is no longer an option. I have a very, very bad feeling now & feel protective of my bunch of trash sons. Their fates will probably be revealed in Forrester's part of the epilogue & now I'm scared for them ;-;
They're locked up in the Forresters' dungeons for now. Dunno what'll happen to them, but they'll probably serve a long sentence.
Hello, that is something I believe hasn't yet been mentioned in the au or on the wiki? Congratulations, now I'm even more invested! Hopefully, if we get a Forrrester epilogue, this guy is going to appear. This type of character is something I need more of.
Well, I mean... Weren't things already this way with Torrhen in charge? It was clear house Whitehill of I. O. would not get any help from him to fight off Gared, or Ashwoods, and it wouldn't take long for any other possible enemy to realize Whitehills don't give a shit about the cadet branch & it's safe to attack it. Them simply being associated with the main line of Whitehills could only deter foes for a very short time. And again, I'm sort of getting a feeling Ashwoods knew about the way things are between Gryff & Torrhen, hence why they gave him back — not out of mercy, but because they figured this would be worse than death for Gryff. Makes me assume, that the enmity between him & Torrhen is sort of a common knowledge in the North.
Torrhen didn't know about Gared, and though he know the Ashwoods would try to take Ironrath when they found out about Ashara, he told them because he trusted them more with it. Had he known about Gared, he would have sent men to deal with them and stop the Forresters from getting it back.
Yes, that's a valid argument as well. The part about it being on Torrhen's command is what bothered me in the first place, I believe. It's sorta of like — the war they've been fighting is over, but Torrhen still won it. He can't give Gryff orders anymore, but his whole life from this point on is going to be fulfilling his last order. If he just fled, the "war" would've ended on his terms, through his deed, and that would feel more like he is free now. For now, it feels like he didn't truly escape — Torrhen's still influencing his very existence in a very significant way. Who knows, perhaps it won't feel like that when he's at the Wall, or perhaps that's just the way I feel, not even Gryff himself. Maybe he doesn't even care & is just content with being out of Torrhen's reach.
I think Gryff will probably focus on the fact that he's away from Torrhen. He's paranoid about the guy and knowing Torrhen has nothing to do with the Night's Watch might alleviate his fears a bit.
Wait, I thought Hugh's remains were burnt? Otherwise it'd be a bit unlikely for his head to still be intact, after rotting for about a month while being pecked at by ravens xD But again, Asher's head looked okay three months after his death, so everything's possible.
Yeah, it's just a figure of speech.
I honestly have trouble imagining how things would've ended in the scenario where Torrhen would put Gryff's head on a pike, namely, because Roslin would likely get to know. I remember how much it has hurt her in the rp that he died & Torrhen was happy, which makes me wonder — how would it make her feel if Torrhen himself was the one to kill Gryff or even order it? In this part we can see, that Torr isn't that clueless about how she feels about her uncle. It makes it sorta hard to imagine him actually executing Gryff, tbh, merely because it would upset Roslin & put a much bigger wedge between them than forbidding her to send letters to the Wall ever could. When I wondered how Torrhen would explain Roslin that Gryff's no on the Wall, I actually meant it more like "how would he explain, that he has sent him there", not "how he would explain that Gryff won't be coming back".
I mean he could lie and say Gryff was killed in battle or something, but I'm not sure he has it in him to lie to Roslin. It's definitely a pickle, and one I don't have an answer to. Also I wouldn't cite RP stuff, because that's not exactly canon to the AU and a lot of it is from a long time ago when I hadn't worked out character traits properly.
When measuring the damage done to Gryff by Torrhen, I've taken into account the stuff from the rp. [...] In the rp, it says how Torrhen took part in forcing him to wear a dress & things like that, making me assume, that even if Karl came up with the ideas of what was to be done, Torrhen was mostly the one to execute them, which, in Gryff's mind, must've made him the "main", most significant tormentor.
Same comment as before ^
& wiki, as well as, of course, the au scenes themselves. It clearly states, that Gryff's fear of Torrhen is even stronger than the hatred he has for him, which isn't a good sign. There is also that scene in the au, which, for me, is the most important one in the whole Gryff-Torrhen dynamic — the one where the latter stabs out Derrock's eye. You see — yes, he is punishing a deserter, but how is he doing that? He could cut off some body part of his, kill him, send him to the Wall, and do that before they even were at Ironrath — but he goes for the eye & I believe this to be no accident.
Personally this wasn't intentional on my part. Torrhen was punishing Derrock but cutting off a limb or something would lower their abilities. Derrock can still fight with an eye, while Grenn sort of sucked without his good arm.
I have a feeling, that after loosing his own eye, Gryff's reaction to witnessing significant eye trauma is similar to, say, the way an arachnophobe reacts to being shown a giant spider. It is... pretty triggering. I think, Torrhen understands, or, more likely, guesses that too, and that is why he did what he did. He wanted the sight to disturb Gryff right to the core & ignite even more terror. That's what made me assume he is as capable of manipulation & twisted ways of tormenting him as Karl or Ebbert, but idk, maybe I'm looking too deeply into things.
I can see Torrhen doing that, but as the writer it was unintentional. That said, it all relies on how the reader perceives the actions of a character. So my opinions aren't really 'word of God' or the 'right' opinion.
You know what, Badge? Thanks for saying that. Really. As you can imagine, I think about the dynamics between Whitehill brothers a lot, and the one that I've never really mentioned is Gryff & Ebbert. I don't feel too comfortable voicing it, because sometimes it feels like Ebbert is treated like some can-do-no-wrong, pure being by most people, but the thing is — he is still to blame for that abuse, and as you have said, his part in it was, maybe, more significant than Torrhen's, not less. For me, as much as he can be a good person, he does not get a pass for that & I don't believe that he shouldn't be held accountable if Torrhen should be. Either it's both of them, or neither, it just wouldn't be fair any other way. And yes, while Ebbert feels guilty for what he did to Gryff, it basically means nothing if he doesn't even try to voice it, or apologize, or influence Torrhen & convince him to try & see things the same way he does. Sparing Gryff's life & giving him a chance to start anew at the Wall might not be a magic ticket to forgiveness for years of abuse, or maybe even the right to do, but it's something. Out of all three brothers, Torrhen is the only one who has done anything, so if any of them deserves the merest credit, it is him.
This is what I mean, yeah. Ebbert may feel guilty, but he can't face it and ran away to be a Maester instead of doing anything about it at home. Karl died (and given his current characterisation I think his deathbed regret has long since been retconned). Torrhen at least did something about it, even if it was an ultimately unfair thing and he had to rely on Greta to steer him right. I'm biased but out of the three I'd say Torrhen is kind of the least sinful, at least in terms of Gryff.
Well... Hold on there. An apology? ...If we're being honest, with the way Torrhen was portrayed, I've always thought that he can reconsider many things, but Gryff's case wasn't one of them. Are you saying, that if he has started questioning Karl, he is capable of admitting he was wrong in the entire Gryff situation? Capable of an apology? Because again, I've never considered him to be capable of one. [...] If that did happen one day though... I don't know whether it can be measured if it's enough effort. Maybe no possible kind of effort would be enough at this point, with the damage already done. But if Torrhen did apologize? I can safely say, that he would instantly gain my respect. I have no idea whether Gryff would forgive him or not (if we're being honest, I have a feeling he would just start laughing), but I can safely say I'd respect that. Surely, it'd take an enormous amount of strength — Torrhen himself says he has trouble admitting his mistakes, and that mistake is a big one. But that'd be the right thing. A step in the right direction. And while Gryff would not be obliged to accept it, it'd still be a gigantic achievement in Torrhen's growth as a person & redeeming himself, and I would respect it a lot (granted, of course, that it wouldn't be some bullshit like "sorry that u killed our mom, lol, u kno, ur still 2 blame, but eh, idk, sorry bout dat, kek", but a serious one instead).
I think he'd word it so that it is known he can admit he is wrong, but I don't think the word 'sorry' will ever come out of his mouth. There's too much history between them now. Gryff wouldn't accept it anyway.
What about the time he was home after the traitor helped the garrison escape? In the rp they interacted then & it'd make the most sense if it was canon to the au, I think? If he was home & Torrhen still wasn't (or was he? i don't remember, tbh), Gryff would definitely check on her, and even if Torrhen has already returned, he'd sneak behind his back, as usual, lmao.
I'm of the opinion that Gryff never went back in the AU. I have a feeling he met Ludd on the march and that's where he got his eyepatch from.
I wonder how [Roslin]''s going to interact with the Forrester family at Torr's nameday feast after all that, but I do hope it'll give Rod a shit ton of guilt for as much as considering killing this precious cinnamon roll for some bullcrap revenge.
I feel like she'd stay away from them and prefer to hang around Stanler and Denys. She wouldn't be scared of Rodrik because she only saw him bleeding out on the ground, but she'd be confused about Talia. The girl stabbed and could have killed Torrhen, but didn't and Roslin isn't old enough to understand why. She'd be wary of them all because they confuse her and she's heard the name 'Forrester' tied to bad deeds by her father and grandfather.
Hmmm, lemme guess, since we can't know what'll happen to the Wall & Watch after the war with white walkers, for you to give us an outline of Gryff's life it'd have to end pretty damn soon... Or am I just being paranoid? What d'ya say, Badger? (: (: (:
I said 'on arrival' specifically, so I'd just write out the setup for exactly what happens to him when he shows up at Castle Black. Who he meets, what position he's given (ranger/builder/steward) etc.
I don't think Torrhen or other Whitehills have actually done anything bad to the cousins, so it'd be less making amends & more — trying to start a new, positive relationship? From what I know about them, it'd go smoothly with Edric & Denys but Axel, the middle one, might be trouble. He & Gryff actually had a good relationship, because of their similar tempers, they understood each other well, and his mun says the guy is going to be mad when he learns Gryff was sent to the Wall. I wonder how Torrhen can try & make things smoother between himself & the lad. But hey, at least Gryff has one more person to send him letters and possibly visit.
I've spoken with their creator - Edric knows Torrhen's a piece of work and Axel wouldn't like him off the bat. Denys would be easily won over because he's young and impressionable, plus he has two first-cousins-once-removed that he'd get along with. The elder two would appreciate Torrhen making an effort, though Axel would be harder to please. I think their role in the Mother's March might help their relationships because Torrhen puts trust in them.
Sorta curious about what "other things" are, would you give me a hint? At least the fandom? You don't have to if you don't want to, of course.
I can't say - it's still... uncertain right now. Just gotta know that it's something I'm hoping to be able to work on, and Cassie is a co-creator and writer as opposed to just an 'additional writer' like in the AU. It's a joint effort, and I believe what little we have already is more solid than the whole of the AU.
I know what'll happen XD I might detail it at some point. A basic outline of Gryff's life on arrival at the Wall might help set the stage fo… morer the fic you suggested you might write.
Hmmm, lemme guess, since we can't know what'll happen to the Wall & Watch after the war with white walkers, for you to give us an outline of Gryff's life it'd have to end pretty damn soon... Or am I just being paranoid? What d'ya say, Badger? (: (: (:
I mean... Torrhen's bringing the cousins and Nolla home and they have a poor relationship. He's going to try and make amends with them, at least.
I don't think Torrhen or other Whitehills have actually done anything bad to the cousins, so it'd be less making amends & more — trying to start a new, positive relationship? From what I know about them, it'd go smoothly with Edric & Denys, but Axel, the middle one, might be trouble. He & Gryff actually had a good relationship, because o… [view original content]
Thank you all for reading and humouring me, particularly those who stuck with the project from the start. I'm glad I could finally finish a full project, even if things could have been better. I tried my best with what I had, and it's been a good learning experience across the project as things became more planned and streamlined. I'm also grateful for the friends I've made along the way and look forward to working on what I have planned for my next project if things work out.
But I digress - I didn't win an oscar or anything. Please remember to spoiler tag any replies about this post as I don't want anyone's experience to be ruined!
P.S - here's something cool; the whole project took 1 year, 8 months, 9 days.
Season Two AU Finale - "Family"
Thank you all for reading and humouring me, particularly those who stuck with the project from the start.… more I'm glad I could finally finish a full project, even if things could have been better. I tried my best with what I had, and it's been a good learning experience across the project as things became more planned and streamlined. I'm also grateful for the friends I've made along the way and look forward to working on what I have planned for my next project if things work out.
But I digress - I didn't win an oscar or anything. Please remember to spoiler tag any replies about this post as I don't want anyone's experience to be ruined!
P.S - here's something cool; the whole project took 1 year, 8 months, 9 days.
I really enjoyed this Season 2 AU that you've spent so long making and the finale was amazing. I'm really happy with how everything worked out in the end. Hard to believe it's almost been two years since it first began.
Now, I'm curious to know; how are you feeling now that you finally completed this project?
Season Two AU Finale - "Family"
Thank you all for reading and humouring me, particularly those who stuck with the project from the start.… more I'm glad I could finally finish a full project, even if things could have been better. I tried my best with what I had, and it's been a good learning experience across the project as things became more planned and streamlined. I'm also grateful for the friends I've made along the way and look forward to working on what I have planned for my next project if things work out.
But I digress - I didn't win an oscar or anything. Please remember to spoiler tag any replies about this post as I don't want anyone's experience to be ruined!
P.S - here's something cool; the whole project took 1 year, 8 months, 9 days.
Now, I'm curious to know; how are you feeling now that you finally completed this project?
Man, it's hard to say. Is there a word for being simultaneously empty and satisfied? I'm looking forward to what my next project might be if things out-of-my-control end up coming together.
Congrats on finishing the AU man. It's hard to believe it's only been two years. I remember first seeing it start on the other TWD Forum and then being thrilled to see it being brought over here. I look forward to your next project.
Season Two AU Finale - "Family"
Thank you all for reading and humouring me, particularly those who stuck with the project from the start.… more I'm glad I could finally finish a full project, even if things could have been better. I tried my best with what I had, and it's been a good learning experience across the project as things became more planned and streamlined. I'm also grateful for the friends I've made along the way and look forward to working on what I have planned for my next project if things work out.
But I digress - I didn't win an oscar or anything. Please remember to spoiler tag any replies about this post as I don't want anyone's experience to be ruined!
P.S - here's something cool; the whole project took 1 year, 8 months, 9 days.
Hmmm, it's a tough question. Honestly I'd rather hear what other peoples' favourite scenes were instead of my own, but a lot of my personal favourites come from part 3 as it was the most planned out:
The lords at Timberwatch ("Brothers of the Wolfswood"), because I got to make all these different characters who were minor in the universe and bring them into the AU. A lot of fanservice in that scene. A lot of me-service.
The scene at Warrick Bastion ("Two Evils"). I think at this point it's obvious I enjoyed making new models and expanding on characters who had little info about them more than actually advancing the plot. But hey, I did the whole thing for fun so it had to be fun for me to do.
The end of "Artifice" when Torrhen first reveals he's a dual wielder and the start of "A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing" when he kills the Brownbarrow men. Now I can't pose models for shit but I'd been building myself up a lot for that scene.
Honestly I'd rather hear what other peoples' favorite scenes were instead of my own.
Well, now that you mention it, my favorite scenes would be:
Talia's walk through the woods with Lyarra and Quiver, singing the "Ballad of the Forresters Reprise", the final chioce in deciding Torrhen's fate and the final monologue.
Rodrik's bar fight, walking in on Gregor and Yrelsa in the memory, reunion with Talia, "The true lord of Ironrath!", and marrying Elaena.
Gared's battle for Ironrath, fighting Gryff and final scene in part 3.
Hmmm, it's a tough question. Honestly I'd rather hear what other peoples' favourite scenes were instead of my own, but a lot of my personal … morefavourites come from part 3 as it was the most planned out:
* The lords at Timberwatch ("Brothers of the Wolfswood"), because I got to make all these different characters who were minor in the universe and bring them into the AU. A lot of fanservice in that scene. A lot of me-service.
* The scene at Warrick Bastion ("Two Evils"). I think at this point it's obvious I enjoyed making new models and expanding on characters who had little info about them more than actually advancing the plot. But hey, I did the whole thing for fun so it had to be fun for me to do.
* The end of "Artifice" when Torrhen first reveals he's a dual wielder and the start of "A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing" when he kills the Brownbarrow men. Now I can't pose models for shit but I'd been building myself up a lot for that scene.
So you might be interested in what happened after Lady Glenmore declared war on House Warrick. Never fear, I've got that covered: the War itself is called "The Mother's March", referencing how Lady Glenmore marches north in the name of her fallen daughter. Nothing quite like a pissed off mother.
So you might be interested in what happened after Lady Glenmore declared war on House Warrick. Never fear, I've got that covered: the War it… moreself is called "The Mother's March", referencing how Lady Glenmore marches north in the name of her fallen daughter. Nothing quite like a pissed off mother.
Here are the individual events:
* Assembly at Stillport
* Massacre at the Wolf's Cradle
* Liberation of Elstoke
* Raid of Deadwood Hill
* Assembly at Oxhill
* Battle of the Bastion
Oh, and here's a picture ft. our dear Ostyn:
I know what it is, and it's very interesting - and there's no telling how people would react. I think the pieces are already out there, someone just has to collect and put them together.
I'm currently trying to get people to guess who the woman with Malcolm was, but maybe Ostyn's parentage can be a thing after that. We know his mother was a peasant, and his father definitely isn't Rickon Snow (Lord Ashwood's eldest). I think there's a bit of a resemblance between him and his biological father...
I've got a strong feeling this might be all we get and the official season 2 will never be released anyway... plus Telltale's track record hasn't been the best this past year O_O
I've got a strong feeling this might be all we get and the official season 2 will never be released anyway... plus Telltale's track record hasn't been the best this past year O_O
Comments
I didn't even know where to begin with this initially, Badger. This part has been one hell of a ride. The new format, many pictures at once, did feel refreshing, but I can safely say I enjoy it far better in form of daily posts. You can still feel the way narration is divided into segments & understand where one post would end & another begin. I can't say this was bad or ruined the experience for me, it's just not my favorite style. Something about ten images a day was just more immersive for me (ironically, since a PDF was meant to do the same xD). We didn't get to see the whole scene at once, but strangely enough? that sort of worked for me, because each post revealed a new layer of the part & picked up the small hints we were given in the previous ones. It felt like it was developing more naturally, while always keeping a tad of intrigue. Consuming everything at once, I don't know, again, it didn't ruin anything, but for me, there was a bit of a "rushed" feeling. Just a little, so don't take it as if I'm bitching about this. I suppose, this just comes down to personal preference.
Compared to the ending of part three, the first scene of the epilogue felt grim. While "Ever Higher" ended in lighter tones (thanks to that great snowfall, seriously, I loved the way it looked & the atmosphere it gave us) & warm reunions, "Iron Grows Anew" did not try to spare us from the harshness of reality. The war might've ended in a declaration of peace, but nothing can take away the remains of it's ugliness — and any war, always, no matter what, remains a wretched, ugly thing. As much as I liked the more hopeful & happy ending, we truly needed to be reminded of this, same as the Glenmores needed to get their closure. It feels sort of weird, how out of all the houses involved, they are the ones to be left in the darkest, most distraught sate at the end of the day. Come to think of this — the thought sort of takes me back to the fact, that it were technically Glenmores who started the war in the first place. Sure thing, Whitehill-Forrester conflict was the real reason, but the first actual act of violence was the capture of Ironrath's garrison, performed mainly by Glenmore forces. Hell, in my game, it was performed by their forces only, without Rodrik's approval, aid or permission. Just something this reminded me of, some cruel, cruel irony. Although they may not've suffered the most losses in terms of men or even family members, their loss is of a slightly different nature... Buuut, let's start from the beginning, since, as I've said, there are quite a few segments to this scene, & each one has something special to offer.
The first thing I'd like to thank you for is, surprisingly, the presence of Waymar Riverstone. This is something I never believed could actually happen & when it did? It freakin rocked. You see, I've stumbled upon his page on the wiki a long time ago & instantly fell in love with that dude. There wasn't much information about him, neither — any indication that we could ever hope to see him on screen (though now I realize, the fact that he had an actual model instead of a faceclaim or drawing should've been a giveaway xD). He just had some special look about him — a man in his fifties, but with a smile so warm & even, dare I say, mischievous sparkles in his eye. When I heard about him being blinded by Hullen, it honestly hurt, and so did the thought, that he'd just remain as a mention of some poor bastard, crippled by Whitehills' goons, not an actual character. Such a great thing that it was fixed, because his presence made everything a bit better.
I wasn't wrong when I suspected that there was some special kindness in him, that shows when he talks to Ostyn. By the gods, Ostyn deserves some kindness. Actually, no, he deserves all the kindness, because the shots of him in the background, with that lost, mournful look on his face are simply heartbreaking. He is so good & he deserves so much better than having to endure this & I want so badly to believe, that things will turn out alright for him. Maybe he'll squire for Namond when the latter is back, & then, he has to be knighted, because if anyone deserves to be a knight in this wretched piece of shit world, it's a guy like him. I refuse to accept anything but the best for Ostyn. Ostyn is to be protected. Ostyn is to be treated with love & respect. Though we haven't had a chance to learn much about Rickon Snow, Waymar is right, I can already tell that — Ostyn will be ten times the man his father was. The way Waymar speaks of the latter is actually quite worrisome for me, for personal reasons — I wonder what has earned Rickon his reputation. I also wonder if Waymar is going to reveal the identity of his father to Ostyn (or did he already? This moment is a little bit confusing, tbh, maybe I'm forgetting something) & what he will do with the information. One thing I know is that I can trust Ostyn to make the right choice.
As we move on to all the other heroes featured in this, Kyra is certainly worth talking about. I remember worrying about the effect Lyarra's death would have on her the most & boy, was I right to worry. It scares me how much loss Kyra has had to endure, especially with how Arthur, Lyarra & Errol seemed to be the family members she had the strongest bond with — I believe, I recall you posting a small drabble on your rp blog, where it was stated Kyra felt most comfortable around her father out of all family members. ((Speaking of the rp blog, make sure to keep an eye on your askbox, as Lira Grimport is probably already on the way to Rillwater Crossing to offer her condolences to Kyra.)) Though I completely understandable, it's nonetheless painful to see Kyra hardened by this. Having to become tougher, to overcome her fears, it might actually, in a fucked up way, do her a degree of good in terms of growing up... Which does not make it any less painful. You can see how she develops that sort of understanding with her mother, of supporting her through this; see her form a special bond with Namond, for whom she's probably one of the few good things left in the world & one of the few reasons to go on. She's different now, hopefully with her core the same, but still different. You'd never expect a vengeful side of her to come into play, for her to wish harm upon another — but you can't expect her to be the same innocent meek child either. This is honestly tough to watch, but this is what you knew would happen. I just hope she can have the strength to transfer her newfound hardness into support for her family, though goddammit... She needs support herself, she's still a child. Edmure, hopefully, will not forget about that & will remain a parent figure for her.
We're coming closer to probably the hardest fucking thing for me to speak about. The execution. I'd like to leave the matter of Hullen Cooper the hell alone if you don't mind, limiting the commentary to one thing — I appreciate his last words being a piece of smug, snarky trash, not begging or whining. I'm not a very big fan of those things. Anything but begging, man, honestly, that just leaves me physically ill. Each time a dying character finds it in himself not to succumb to those in the au, you spare me a lot of emotional pain, Badger, jsyk.
Speaking of last words — man, fuck, you just had to, right? You had to pour more oil in the burning trainwreck my Warrick obsession is. Where do I even fucking start. I honestly have so much to say, that there is no easy answer. Boros. You fuckface. You, the one who did all of this to me, the one to blame for each & every drop of torment this scene brought us. I could see it on his face that he was scared, I could always tell it, throughout the entire time he was on screen, right to the bitter end. And yet again — no begging. No tears. And not only that — last words, that weren't about himself, that weren't a plea for mercy or a wish for Glenmores to burn in hell, but instead — trying to protect Colton, in the only way he had left. It gave me chills. The combination of obvious fear for himself in his every feature & last words, that are about his brother. You fuckface. I hate you & I will always remember you & these words & they are the thing I choose to remember most about you, because of how they were the biggest fucking thing about you that mattered to me, they — and two other lines. A brotherly relationship, that did not exist & that comprises three lines from Boros & one and a half line from Colton throughout the whole au — siblings "house Warrick style". Siblings house Warrick style! — still less fucked up than the Whitehills ;)
As if this was not enough to kill me, the ways in which Randyll managed to scar even his youngest son as well shows here & I am in so many minds about what has happened — in so many minds about Colton & his fate. Come to think of it — there isn't that much we know about Colton. What all that he had to witnessed has done to him, how does he feel about being taken from his family, & this new home, & his brother — holy fucking shit, it destroys me from the inside that I don't know exactly how Colton feels about the whole matter with his brother. If I had to guess, the thing I'd come up with would probably be confused. It must be incredibly hard to process for a child, who, from what we saw, had always wanted to meet his brothers, & so he did now, but in the most fucked up way possible. Did he hear what Boros said before being hanged? Did he understand what he was trying to say & why?.. (given that even I can't answer the last question, I don't know how likely a kid is to.) How did this make him feel? No answers. All up for interpretation (unless you know & decide to tell me, which would be hella welcome, even if it isn't what I want/expect to hear).
Even though Colton is relatively safe for now, I am so worried about him, more specifically — about how growing among the Glenmores will affect him. At the very least, we can give Syrena credit for not forcing him to watch, implying that, while he isn't likely to be loved in this family, he'll still get a fair treatment. And yet, while safe from the abuse he'd be exposed to at the Bastion, he'll have so much emotionally challenging things to struggle with. The possibility of less honorable Glenmore men transferring their hatred for his brother at him. The feeling of not belonging. The possible guilt for his family's deeds. The possible wish that his family wasn't destroyed, because he has some remains of affection left for his parents, & then — experiencing guilt for that? Or perhaps, the opposite — fierce resentment of his Warrick heritage? Or resentment of the Glenmores, because he feels like he does not belong, & therefore — denying the crimes of his family & glorifying whatever memory he has left about them instead? Those are just guesses. No matter what, it is not going to be easy. Does Colton even realize that Boros actually cared about him? While I do hope he does, that could be both heartwarming & difficult for the boy. Would he not be able to fit in even more because of Glenmores' obvious hatred of his brother & them most likely expecting him to silently agree? Or, maybe, after getting to know what good people they are, would he grow to hate Boros too, for the pain he has caused them?.. This part is, admittedly, long & over-the-top, but I simply have too many thoughts & emotions & the subject is indeed touchy. Anyway, I am glad that Colton is where he is now. Not going to lie, I've always fancied the idea of him being Torrhen's ward more, as that environment would likely be a happier one, but I should probably be content with what I have.
The last thing I have to say regarding Colton is that I'm a bit confused about how he ended up at Rillwater Crossing so soon. Was Randyll not yet at the Bastion when they took him from where — and if he was, I find it a little hard to believe he'd just blindly obey the demand to give up the only possible heir to his house. Even if he did, no doubt that it has given him a clue of sorts regarding Torrhen's intentions. Randyll is indeed a smart man & maybe the Warricks won't be as unprepared for this war as the Glenmores seem to expect.
Do not think I have forgotten to speak about Namond. While Torrhen, in my eyes, is the most complicated hero with an established personality, Namond goes through the best change of character in the whole thing. We see him be proud & resentful, we see him make a mistake & pay for it, abandon some of his pride & try to make things right, but still hold onto his past flaws & be haunted by the errors he made. He doesn't just become like that all out of sudden. We see him break down alone & in silence, but that still isn't it. New consequences of his betrayal continue to resurface. He goes through so much, that it's a miracle how guilt does not break him. His decision to leave is the best possible way to end this character arc, no matter how much I would love to see where he'll go & what he'll do. Passing ancestral sword to Kyra, telling her to look out for Ostyn, having that deep, deep pain in his eyes... I wish I had something good to say, but I just don't. Those are great, meaningful details. I've struggled with accepting Namond for who he is a lot, but, after all this, I believe that I forgive him. For everything. I want him to find peace & strength to forgive himself & go back to Meghan who will give him some love. I just want Namond to go to Meg & let her love him & accept him & forgive him. That would be good.
As part comes closer to the end, the one person I have not spoken much about — Syrena, shows us exactly what kind of loss house Glenmore has suffered. I like looking at this part of the epilogue & comparing it with the remade Rillwater scenes from "Sown in Sorrow" — a pretty eye-opening experience, tbh. The warmth that was there isn't any longer. It has been replaced with silent support & endurance, & while I have no doubts, that Glenmores still care greatly about one another, it will never be quite the same for them anymore. There is darkness, & spite, & grief, & Syrena represents the changes her house went through perfectly — which makes sense, with her leading it now. That's one more thing that could've been anticipated — I recall noting the "deathstare" she gave in the part where Namond was telling Talia & Elaena what happened at the Crossing. Part of me knew there was darkness & strength inside of her — Syrena is the "loving mother taking up the warrior sword" trope done right, & I mean absolutely right. I never understood why the loving mother type of character is often taken for a weak/pushover/useless type of person. People who believe that, forgive the language, but are you out of your minds? A mother whose child has been ripped away is a terrible animalistic force to clash with. Where most only see the pure, gentle, absolute love you should always acknowledge what lies beneath the surface — hatred & vengeance & utter lack of mercy. That's what a mother whose child has been taken from her is, that's what she is bound to become when it happens, so never underestimate or trifle with such a thing. You'll have hell unleashed on you. It's hard to watch Syrena being forced to harden & become strong, both a shield between her remaining children & the rest of the world — & a sword, that is to crush Glenmore's enemies. There is no place for pity for "poor, defenseless, soft woman" you'd expect her to become after Errol's death if you only knew the one side of hers that's been shown in part one. There is the sense of intimidation. There is fear. I know she'll remain loving & caring mother — that is a given, a constant, but those outside her family & allies — have every reason to be afraid.
The part is over & we will not see the Glenmore-Warrick war, and part of me is relieved to know we won't, although I'll still be looking forward to you telling us exactly how it all went down. It feels quite natural this way, the readers not getting to see the actual slaughter, but only the promise for it, which is enough to realize what a hell we're in for. I stand by everything I've already said on the matter — I do not consider this war to be a morally right thing. Houses of Stillport will sure as hell be justified in their crusade for retribution & rescue of Sanya Draper & Lynneth Cooper — probably the only good thing to come out of this feud. As for Glenmores? Yeah, that's pretty much the good ol' northern-style vendetta, where you're just like "the man who has wronged me has been punished?.. yeah, sure, but now I'm gonna slaughter his bloodline to boot, bc you know, craving murder of those who aren't responsible is a valid thing". Do not get me wrong, I do believe the plot point to be a realistic & overall good one. I just really hate the concept of this kind of vengeance, but that's my personal opinion. If a thing makes sense for the story — give it to me, no matter how painful. I know you've said that Warricks are pretty much all criminals, Badger, but my mind just refuses to take it this way. Surely there are those who were born Warricks, not exiled to join the house, there are women & children, there are people who just followed the orders given to them, & their fates concern me a great deal.
I wonder how does Syrena feel about the fact, that Torrhen has promised to provide support for Warrick's wipeout. No matter what, the man remains the killer of her husband, & I can't see her ignoring that, although let's be real — getting to him is an impossibility for her. Torr has thrown the people he has wronged a bone in form of the Warricks, the more I think about it, the more I realize that. And that's a smart strategic move. One thing I'm curious about is — how will it feel for him to bring down the man he has squired for, who, as the wiki puts it, was even "something of a father figure to him", who obeyed all of his orders. Not that I think that he & Randyll are close or anything like that, but I can see him at the very least respecting the man. Hopefully, he'll have it in himself not to make a show out of stabbing him in the back, acting as if all this is some sort of game. A death in battle, or a beheading, performed without a smirk on your smug fucking face, Torrhen, can you please provide me with that much?.. Though again, I don't know if he'll take that big a part in the future war. I suppose, you'll provide us with more info about it later, and then I'll be sure.
I believe, I have said all that I had to say about this part. In case I did not state that clearly, I loved it. It was dark, it was meaningful, it chilled me to the bone, made me emotional, gave characters development & did everything a great au part should do. I don't know if there will be more parts of this epilogue, but even if there won't be, I'm glad we got this one, as it does a great job of being a standalone closure for the Glenmore plotline, and fits right with the rest of the au. There are still things I would absolutely love to see covered in the epilogue, even though I don't know which of them you'll include in it if you do decide to make it. I sure as hell hope that Gryff gets a closure — and if this chapter was anything to go by, I'll need to prepare myself for the worst in that case. It'd be nice to see Forresters settling back in at Ironrath, Rodrik coping with his injury, Ryon possibly waking up, Talia getting to know her new siblings, the possible alliance with Ashwoods, Beskha & Sylvi deciding what to do next. I honestly don't know what else the possible epilogue could include — if I had to pick, that'd be what happened to Alanna & Myles, probably in much shorter form than this part. I care greatly about those two & am simply curious. I know I've listed a lot of stuff, Badger, I hope th
I hope that doesn't make you feel overwhelmed. You should take your time & make your decisions about the au — but always know, that I look forward to whatever you'll decide to provide us with. Every plotline is important & lately au posts have been the biggest source of inspiration for me. I've enjoyed it more than anything & talking about this universe made me feel so, so good. Hopefully, it made you feel at least a little bit the same way.
It's gone down fairly well with other people - the fact it felt like you could divide the scene into posts is probably because the scene was originally intended to be separate posts. Hopefully my next scene (if I actually come through for you guys) should feel more fluid and less stilted.
Trust me, that was hell to do. Snow overlays are hard to find and the whole thing took about twice as long as a usual image set.
I felt I had to put him in if Hullen was going to be executed. The Glenmores had some right to kill him on behalf of their vassals, but it made more sense for Waymar to be there. I imagine he was friends with Errol, too, as both of them appeared quite wise and calm, only angered when pushed far enough. Waymar was originally going to have more of a role in this scene, involving him speaking with Hullen, but it was going to end with Hullen insulting him and I believed Waymar didn't deserve that - and Hullen didn't deserve the chance to get one last jab in.
Ah, but here's the thing. There's multiple meanings to the words "your father is not the man you think he is." Maybe it can be taken as a statement of "your father doesn't have the character you'd expect him to"... but maybe Ostyn has suspicions Rickon Snow is his father and Waymar is planting seeds of doubt in his head. Ostyn's father may literally* not be the man *we've been led to believe he is. Which raises the question, who could he be?
And as for young Ostyn himself, there's a war a-comin'. The eldest Glenmore son has departed and there's a vanguard to be led at some point, so... kid's got some training to do.
Our Kyra's still in there - she's at a low point, most definitely, but I think she possesses the capacity to bounce back. It's echoed in her parting words to Namond, after all. She tells him to Never Relent and Never Yield, and you can be darn sure she's sticking to those morals herself. Kyra will bounce back, even if she's burdened with a lot more responsibility now. This is her Greyson side coming through and surfacing, just as her mother's has. It's like a defense mechanism (bad time? Greyson mode engage!).
This is why Namond told her to look after herself most of all. He did request her to be strong for her family, but acknowledges she's only a child and doesn't expect her to have to lead the family or anything. As for Edmure, I don't think he's ever been seen without Val in his arms, so the minute he's done with his negotiations with House Overton and Stillport, he'll be back to look after the kids.
Speaking of whom, Edmure was also supposed to have a little bit more characterisation here, but it was cut for similar reasons I cut Waymar's bit with Hullen. Edmure was going to speak with Boros and say some exceptionally hateful words to him, but in the end I decided I couldn't find words that were filled with a sufficient amount of hatred (maybe I should have referenced the anonymous hate I get from time to time). You can still see some of his hatred in his conversation with Syrena - he doesn't question her motives or plans, just asks for more detail so he can do his job. He wants revenge just as much as the rest of House Glenmore, and the guy's a fuckin' scholar.
That's about the sum of it. He knows the basics of what was happening, but he'd already witnessed Ormund's death - a family member who he was arguably closer to... or at least spent more time around. Boros' death probably meant less to him considering how little he knew him. I'm in no doubt it hurt because that was the last of his brothers - who he had always wanted to meet - but Randyll forcing him to witness his Uncle's death has already hardened him somewhat and instilled the belief that watching death head on makes him stronger. So Randyll got his final 'fuck you, decent parenting!' in.
Yes.
He's only six years old so he didn't understand the true meaning of Boros' words. It could have been 'stay away from me!' for all he knew, and that's probably how he took the words.
I'm going to say I'm cautiously optimistic about the man Colton will grow up to be. It's all very vague, but I want to believe he'll be grow up to be the best man House Warrick has to offer. Living at the Bastion is what fucked up the rest of them, and now that's no longer a factor for little Colton. Maybe if the Glenmores ever let him go (which they probably will) he'll seek out his aunt at a certain old tavern...
Well, we don't exactly know how soon this is. In my head it's at least a month after the truce, if not more, so Colton's had ample time to get there.
Randyll can be fairly... obtuse at times? In my head it went down with Torrhen going up to the Bastion and telling Randyll to give him Colton as he was looking for a page for one of his men. Randyll would jump at the chance to make Colton a proper man (and considering he makes no time for his kids he'd jump even more at the chance to have someone else be a parent for him), and Colton would be on a horse to Highpoint before he even knew what was happening. Torrhen would be conflicted handing the boy over to Syrena, but mothers are his weakness, and he has a foolish amount of faith in them so he'd believe the woman if she personally said she would not bring the boy harm (and she's stood to that).
Randyll might not have a clue yet, but I think he'll slowly put the pieces together. It won't take long for him to start mobilising his own men, even if he's unaware the Whitehills aren't protecting him any more.
^ make a note of that last statement. Namond doesn't have beef with Ostyn any more, so something good did come out of all of this.
I don't think Namond's got anywhere else to go. The Oldbarrow and his wife is likely his destination... lord knows how he'll react when he hears the news of her pregnancy. It might be something that brings him back from the edge a little bit. Guy needs some happiness in his life. Arthur's birth might bring him home again.
I'm worried about the post limit so I'll continue this in another post : O
This is a really good observation - one I honestly hadn't noticed. In Pt1, there's an air of warmth and kindness in Rillwater Crossing, but in this scene the place feels cold and dead like winter.
I think it's similar to how Rodrik's healing process is indicative of the state of House Forrester during Season 1. He's battered and bruised when the house is weakened, and grows stronger as they get their shit together. Syrena's the opposite - she starts of as a kind motherly figure, then ends as a harsher woman - but still no less a mother - by the end.
I have a couple of battles in my mind already... it's coming together in my head, I know how it ends pretty much, it's just getting there. I'll be sure to write up some wiki pages once I've decided on it all.
Is any war really morally correct, though? Fighting over dead relatives may be slightly more reasonable than murdering people over... trees... XD
Darn straight!
I think it goes to show there really are no 'good guys'. The Forresters had their bad'uns... Nestor Greyson eliminated the entirety of House Branfield - and in a way, his daughter's doing the same thing here. Like... the exact same thing:
It's history repeating itself, but I think there's something poetic about it, too.
Ahh, but Alanna delivered the killing blow to Errol when he and Namond were attacking Torrhen. Torrhen didn't do it himself, and though that doesn't mean much - it's just as much his fault - Syrena will most likely use his forces if he offers them and convinces her he's on her side. That many men is too good an offer to pass up.
It's not like Torrhen would be participating in killing Arys, the truest father figure he ever had, but I'm sure he'd have doubts in the back of his head. Randyll 'raised' him for five years, but he's failed him in more recent times. He failed to capture Rodrik at Morgryn's logging site - a lot of his missions were failures, and then he goes and kinslays and all that crap. Randyll's actions were scatty and all over the place and Torrhen's just lost a lot of faith and trust in him. I can't really put it into words.
I think I've planned to do at least 90% of those things, so you can look forward to that... y'know, if I ever finish this fucking thing. It's a bit of a slog to get through right now but I hope to persevere and finish it
is Waymar Ostyn's father?
I can confirm he is not
See, this is one of the main reasons I like talking about the au — because of you mentioning the details of how it was made & how it could've been & what's been cut out. I think, at some point, you could do kind of a "trivia" thing about au's production — tell us about the things you wanted to include but didn't & why, or plot points/small details you have changed. Idk, that's just a suggestion, but I believe something like that could be interesting — readers getting to know what au could've been like.
Well, this about confirms that I misunderstood that part xD I just thought that Waymar saying "your sentiment is wholly correct" means that he knows Ostyn's father & the man is indeed a scumbag. I didn't quite realize Rickon was rumored to be his dad & that Ostyn already believed he was. Shit, now I'm curious, and already having crazy theories, as usual. Is there any hope for us getting to know his father's true identity in the future?)
Ostyn's going to rise through ranks of Glenmores' forces & fight bravely — that I do not doubt. Not to say that it isn't a shame he has a war to fight in even after all the crap that happened, but if he learns that Warricks have captured two innocent girls — I'm pretty damn sure he'll do whatever it takes to aid in rescuing them. That's just the kind of person he is, right?
Yeaaaah, why do I have a feeling that was also his first & only time? :ь Either way, I have to give him credit for it, I guess.
Man, that's sad, honestly, but at the same time, you've managed to calm me down a fair bit regarding Colton. If you, as the creator, tell us he is going to be fine, I believe, it's safe to say he will be. Who knows, maybe when he grows up & recalls those words the realization will sink in. Or at least, that's what I hope will happen. Speaking of which, don't you think it's worth mentioning on Boros' wiki page that he was, how shall I put it, somewhat protective of Colton? Idk man, it just feels like something that needs to be there for me — he's a fairly minor character & that trait of his is somewhat prominent, at least to the same extent that the traits wiki already tells us about. Again, just a suggestion.
I believe, Taena was exiled from house Warrick far too early for them to know each other? Either way, those two definitely need to meet. From what little we know about her, she's essentially the best person out of all of her family members & Colton deserves to know her & know that his family wasn't an all-around trainwreck. Also, isn't she his cousin, not aunt?
Oh, believe me, I did notice & appreciate this. The fact that he doesn't is one of the main reasons why I whole-heartedly forgive Namond for all of his previous wrongdoings. I kinda wish the two had a small conversation, so that there'd be no more misunderstanding between them, and Namond maybe even apologized for his men's mistreatment of Ostyn, but I think I understand that it's too early for both of them. I do hope something like that happens in the future, off-screen.
It can be, I believe, when you're defending your land or rescuing someone, but that's just the intention that's justified — people still do fucked up & unforgivable things at war, hence why it needs to be avoided whenever possible... For example, when you have no good reason to find other than goddamn trees XD
Good point — I honestly just forgot about that.
Randyll did get his punishment for kinslaying, & idk, for me failures & all that feel like a reason to remove the man from his position or something, not straight up betray him & exterminate his house. But, me & Torrhen, admittedly, have very different opinions about life, so yeah, I'm prepared for whatever he'll have to offer :ь Him & Randyll are worthy opponents, at least, so a war where they are at the opposite sides is going to be something epic to look at.
I will sure as shit be looking forward to it. For now though, again, take your time, Badger — after all the stuff you've already produced, that feels like a well-deserved thing .)
Waymar does know Ostyn's real father's identity, but not through personal experience with the man. He's just an outside observer who put the pieces together while Ostyn was squiring for him - think of it like how Torrhen put the pieces together that Myles was Karl's son.
Man, Ostyn rescuing Sanya and Lynneth would be great. I'm not sure what they're up to now considering Cregan is dead, but the torture they had to endure is probably gone. I think the Warricks have forgotten about them, to be honest. Stillport has not.
I'll have to remember to insert that. It's hard to remember what you need to add when you have nearly 800 pages to keep track of XD
She's his cousin, yeah. The ages messed me up a bit there... they never knew each other, but Torrhen knows of them both so if Colton is ever released from being a Ward he might find his way to Highpoint and Torrhen will introduce them or something.
It's a bit too early, but they probably will reconcile at some point.
Next scene will be up for download 28/1 (this saturday)
Part 4.2 - "Admission"
Second part of the epilogue -- this time it's the Whitehills.
It was nice of Torrhen to let Myles return home. The path of redemption is never easy, but for what it's worth, he's definitely on the right track. Especially since he didn't kill Gryff and sent him to The Wall instead. Though, I feel bad for Jon Snow once he gets there.
I think Greta should live the wise cracks to her husband. XP
I think around this point in time Jon could be preoccupied with stab wounds... I'm not 100% on the timeline but Stannis has recently been defeated by the Boltons and Jon's fake death isn't that long after..?
Yo, Badger. So. The review of last part. It has been longer in coming than the previous one, and that is because I find it very hard to talk about this chapter (just making it clear from the very beginning — this is not because I thought it was bad or something like that) (also bc im a piece of procrastinating shit). I've been thinking it through again & again, and several times it has made me so emotional I nearly cried & got too agitated to express my thoughts properly. But in the end? I feel like I really want to talk about it. In the past, when au posts left me with strong emotions, writing everything out really helped sort it out & in the end made me feel better. I'm hoping that this is what's going to happen now, because holding all of this inside is sort of hard. Before we jump in, I would like to give one more fair warning — if at any point through this comment you start getting salty or passive-aggressive vibes from me, know that I don't mean to offend you with them. We all know, weird as this sounds, the writer is not responsible for what his heroes do, so no matter how mad I get during this, bear in mind, I'm not mad at you. At characters, at situations, yes, but not at the creator. I'm just very emotional & feeling very strongly about what has happened here, I hope you understand.
The fun thing about this chapter is how I've been mislead by it twice, which only made the experience more intense for me. When you announced it, I was expecting it to be with Gryff as a "POV", which wasn't true, but I've made myself hella antsy thinking that way. Then, seeing Torrhen, I sort of relaxed, because I didn't think Gryff would make an appearance, and then... Yup, I freaked out, and, as time showed, it was not over nothing. I know how it sounds when I say this now, but I actually sorta guessed that Ashwoods could bring Gryff to Highpoint at some point. That doesn't really count as much of a prediction, because I expected events to unfold entirely different — scene being told from Gryff's point of view, Ashwoods, perhaps, using him as a hostage in some way, or demanding something in return for letting him go, Torrhen laughing off that suggestion, but Ros intervening at some point, shocked & scared by what's going on & leaving him no other choice but to actually cooperate with them & get Gryff back. I've always sort of craved for Gryff & Roslin to meet in the au, so, as you can imagine, it gained one hell of a "aw, fuck, whyyy" reaction from me, when it was so close to coming true, but didn't in the end. Instead though, we got the scene with Greta, which was a great choice as well, so don't think I'm complaining. I'll talk about this part of the scene more, and a lot, but for now, let's start from the beginning.
The scene starts off with what was probably one of the most worrisome parts of the whole Highpoint's plotline for me — with Myles. Boy, did this lad & his situation bother me a lot; it is, however, nice to know that things have worked out surprisingly well for him (I mean, as well as they could work out, with Eddard dying & stuff). That's thanks to, what I like to call, Torrhen's "change of heart" in this scene (remember me saying how Namond's one was the best? yeah, I still stand by it, but Torrhen's certainly was just as well-performed). It makes a lot of sense how we did not see it initially, right after he lost his battle to Talia. Sure, by the time Rodrik awoke, he must've already had some time to contemplate his mistakes, but like hell would he show that in front of those he can't fully trust — as prideful & careful as ever. Now though, with them gone & his family back, the guy can allow himself to drop the act, show his softer side & admit his wrongdoings. It still takes a lot of strength, but the mere fact he does is admirable enough.
Here Torrhen actually voices some of the things Cassie has spoken about on tumblr, about how Myles has a family that cares about him, how Eddard came all that way to save him, while Karl likely wouldn't have even bothered with his child... This does sorta make Torrhen seem more likeable & relatable, I gotta admit. I don't know if he intended to be this way since the beginning & just didn't have the time, when Brothers of the Wolfswood sneaked in, or if he only recently realized all these things; but I gotta give him credit for saying them. It makes me wonder how does Myles really feel about Eddard after all that happened. He surely isn't as pissed as before, but aside from that, does he believe that his father cared greatly about him? Does he forgive Eddard for lying? How mad is he at him for scarring Roslin — I have to assume, that throughout his stay at Highpoint her & Myles could've developed some kind of positive relationship? I don't know, but I hope that in the end Myles is going to prioritize the better memories he has about his father & value them. I also hope that the fact, that he is always welcome at Highpoint, will help with the obvious tensions between Thorntons & Whitehill following the raid of Stillport just as well as Torrhen's aid in the war. It feels important to me that Greta has the chance to remain on good terms with Thorntons despite her marrying a Whitehill. They are her family & I'd hate to see them scorning her for being Torrhen's wife, but hopefully, Myles can convince them not to — I like to believe him & Greta are on good terms as well.
Speaking of Greta, it also makes sense how Torrhen opens up even more once they are alone. The dialogue between them must be one of my favorite things about this chapter, to be honest, because till a certain point, Torrhen's development has been bringing me nothing but sheer, undiluted joy. I love how it connects with the way Torrhen was portrayed in the rp — I recall you writing about him feeling invincible at some point, which really made me wish someone would knock some sense of mortality in him back then. In general, every time au references something roleplaying-related, it makes me so disgustingly happy. And these developments are really friggin welcome ones, not to mention that they are explained perfectly — if anything, things that happen to Greta, Roslin & Karl are the most legit reason. The most interesting change here for me has to be Torrhen's change of attitude towards Karl. While it's perfectly clear why he understands, that he shouldn't make a show out of war & act like no one can possibly oppose him, which clearly isn't fucking true, I'm a bit uncertain about what has made him realize Karl might not be the perfection of a man he used to deem him. Is this because Torrhen's been trying to do things "Karl's way" & act like he would've acted, but the strategy has failed him & jeopardized his loved ones? That'd make most sense to me. Perhaps, when in his head he was going over that "Karl's way", trying to figure out why it was flawed, is the moment when Torrhen started to think more critically about him, and some other negative traits he chose to ignore before became impossible to deny? Torr probably still has a fair bit of admiration for Karl, but it's nice to see him thinking critically. One more sign of him "getting back on the right path" or whatevs.
One thing I really liked about that particular segment was other characters being referenced. First of all, Talia, dammit, Torrhen speaking about Talia? Torrhen admitting that he respects Talia? Give me all that. Give me more of that shit. I'm not kidding, that shit is pure gold. I stand by my words about wanting a "stranded on an island together" au for those two. No other interaction/dynamic between characters in the whole au has ever been that great. Not gonna lie, it'd be great to see them interact in a more "casual" setting, and I don't mean that like a "more fluffy/friendly" one, I simply mean it like a safer one, where they aren't fighting & one isn't feeling threatened by another. Torrhen cracking jokes & being cocky, while still subtly acknowledging his respect for her; Talia being reluctant & confused, but trying to hold herself with as much dignity as possible... Idk what to say about that; simply thinking about it makes me giddy. Who knows, maybe something like that can happen offscreen at that nameday feast Torrhen's mentioned, since Talia is invited. Maybe one day you could write what the event was like for au's wiki or even make a small fic about it... Not trying to pressure you into anything, man, just throwing around suggestions, bc their dynamics got me real good :ь
It was also nice, that sers Arys & Alanna got at least a line of dialogue about them. Torrhen didn't show much emotion regarding his death with the Forresters around, understandably, but I still like to see it affecting him & Greta & them being shown grieving. That man was simply the best house Whitehill had to offer, I don't know, maybe they have someone who can fight better, but there is no denying he was the best man in their service. And he was more than that — he was family for them both, so I like to see it being acknowledged just how damn important he was. As for Alanna — Torrhen may have only mentioned her in passing, but I'm hella curious about the way he feels regarding her fuck up & departure. Hypothetically, right in that moment, was she to show up in front of him, what would he have to say? Would he blame her? Or reassure? I don't really want to make assumptions, because this side of Torrhen is a bit of an unexplored territory for me, but if you could say what you think he'd do, it'd be very appreciated. Somehow, I've grown to be hella invested in Alanna & her fate & her relationship with Torr. Crazy, yeah, I'm surprised myself, but I just crave her returning & being fully accepted back, even if it'll most likely happen off screen (I refuse to believe it's not going to happen, okay???...). She is family, she belongs at Highpoint, and for some reason, I feel rather strongly about that. I like to believe, that possibly discovering her Greyson parentage won't sway her from it. She is in a rather disturbed state & it could cause her doubts, admittedly, but I can only see her making one choice & it is going back. At the same time, I am interested in the way she could react to realizing it was her half-brother she has beaten with a cane. It's kind of a shame there is little to no chances she'd stay on even neutral terms with her siblings — company of someone like Aaron or Hughar could do her some good, as for her & Rhaesa — hell, I'll admit, if they were raised together, I could see them bonding rather nicely? Sadly, this is just some agokaf material, and that'd have to be, like, some hardcore next level agokaf, with literally no animosity between anybody xD
Speaking of members of Torrhen's elite guard, the group has certainly seen better days, am I right? It currently only comprises five men, if Alanna returns it'll be six & Harys' possible position is obviously off the table (I never really believed Torrhen would give it to him even if he succeeded, tbh). I sort of assume Torr prefers to keep ten of them, meaning he'll have to find some new men to fill the gaps, choosing far more carefully than he used to, so that he can be sure their loyalty shall not waver & they won't abuse the power given to them. It really makes me curious about who those new elites are going to be. It'd be cool if at some point we got to know, but again, that's merely a suggestion.)
We are getting closer & closer to the point, where stuff gets intense, in terms of this review turning into a wreck of a train, that carried several tons of salt. Let's put that happy moment to the side for a short while, because before I get to the matter of you-know-who, there is another part of the chapter I found myself unexpectedly enjoying — the Ashwoods. Yeah, I can see that they were meant to be presented as sort of assholes, and in some sense of the word, they sort of are... Not going to lie, some of them are fairly unpleasant, Ashara being one of my least favorite heroes of the au as whole, but you see — I just get some brand of weird charm from them. The mere fact that they didn't kill Gryff while having every reason to is enough to warm me up towards them, if only just a tad. Those guys get a really funny line every now & then, the one regarding bloody trees would probably go on my "top 10 au lines" if I had one. And you know, as cold, menacing & snarky as they appear, house Ashwood has always seemed really interesting to me, in the "how things function among them & what each & every relationship is like" sort of way. It's a given with such a big family, and the wiki does give us a very good insight on all of it's memebers, but sometimes I do wish they got some more screentime (some still can). Just sort of personal preference, but consider me, perhaps not a fan, but a person who acknowledges how complicated & unique this house is & can't help but really appreciate it.
A breathe in, a breathe out, one more futile attempt to calm down & don't be so damn judgmental, and I dive into what we both have been waiting for. Well, admittedly, more so I than you, but still. Gryff fucking Whitehill, the person whose mere presence on screen feels like some goddamn blessing to me. All the good looks were spent on my asshole, not your smug fucking face, Torrhen. Seriously, even my salt aside, I find it funny how au's Gryff actually looks more handsome to me than the inagme one does. His model looks kinda smoother, his features less rough, and overall, I fail to comprehend, what do you people find so ugly about him?? I seriously don't get it. This doesn't even have anything to do with him being my fave, I can acknowledge it when my faves aren't pretty. Cotter was my absolute biggest fave from the original game & he wasn't good-looking, maybe cute in his own way, but not good-looking. With Gryff I'm just... confused. He looks fine, on par with Torrhen to me, and probably even better than Karl & Ebbert do. Idk man, I just don't get it.
From where I stand, you didn't only get his model right, Badger — I've always been genuinely enjoying the way you portrayed Gryff; not the things that happened to him or what he did, but the way it was handled. In the last scene he is in, I was so damn emotionally torn & didn't know how it actually made me feel. On one hand — Gryff's lines & attitude make me just want to hug you & never let go. Part of me dreaded the possibility of him not having enough strength to hold himself in front of Torr after everything that happened & breaking down; that'd straight up kill me. But boy, I am proud of my son. Look at him. He will not fucking crouch & beg for his mercy. He's had enough of that, enough of that for a bloody lifetime, and now that everything's lost — he has no bloody reason to, he can just spit all the anger he has in his fucking face, because he doesn't care about consequences anymore. Not that it wouldn't be great for Gryff to have sort of a "Ben vs Kenny" scene with Torrhen, just with no apologizing & more yelling about what an asshole the latter is & how he isn't gonna take any of his shit any longer. I understand why it wouldn't fit here realistically though — that'd mean Gryff had overcome all of the fear that's been beaten in him for years & that's just not how it works. And besides, he just seems too tired for that at the moment.
On the other hand, while every second of Gryff being there was heaven, the other side of this encounter fucking grated on me to no motherfucking end. Torrhen Whitehill & his condescending bloody tone. Torrhen Whitehill & his self-righteous goddamn attitude. I would rip that man a new asshole for every single line of dialogue in this if I could, and you know, it also shows perfectly just how delusional about this situation he is. "Because you failed we almost lost everything" — yeah... yeah, buddy, it's okay. It is totally okay for you to drag this man, because he didn't serve you as well as he should've and failed you... It's completely justified. Sure, you put a knife in a person's hand, quite clearly hinting that she is to kill him, but yeah... Even after that, Gryff still owes you a decent service. No questions asked, Torrhen. I can totally see your point. "bloody make something out of yourself" — because me methodically ruining your sanity for a couple decades to no end is the best bloody setup for making something worthy out of yourself one can imagine! Like, what else is to be expected from Gryff after all that if not becoming a noble bloody hero at the Wall, single-handedly slaying the Night's King & becoming the new lord Commander, all while stunning fellow watchmen with his charming & reasonable attitude? "Maybe make a friend or two", since you're clearly still capable of friend-making, despite all the trust & self-worth issues, as well as paranoia, that have been inflicted on you, right? Right??? "I don't fucking care", and that is exactly why you should have no. bloody. say. in Gryff's future, Torrhen. I'm unapologetically salty, and I don't even fucking care how it looks anymore. Gosh diddly darn it, this fucker pissed me off good :/
What has been pissing me off so much about this can probably be described as the following — despite the fact, that Gryff has survived (I think we can all agree that all of the credit for it rightfully goes to Greta?), Torrhen still won. I do not mean that like he won the war (tbh, he actually didn't) or he made it out with less losses than other characters — that's not the point & that's not what I have a problem with. What grates on me is in the whole situation with Gryff he was still a winner. The positions did not change. The power dynamics stayed the way they've always been. He could not have killed him, but he got rid of him, he got to abuse the power he had over him one last time, and even come out like a merciful fucker, who can pat himself on the back , because he did the right bloody thing. Torrhen, I'm sorry, but... You actually didn't.
I repeat, you did not do the right thing when you sent Gryff to the Wall, with your men making sure he can't escape. If you at least advised him to do that instead of just forcing him, and left the choice of where to go & what to do to Gryff, that I could call the right thing, but this simply isn't one. Greta did the right thing — even though she has known Gryff for a literal minute, and had no reason to care, but still did what was right. Come to think of it? If Forresters sent Gryff to the Wall, I'd probably say it was the right thing. If we look into it, after the shitshow he started at Ironrath, after the way he abused Milly, killed his own man and all that, Gryff sort of deserves the Wall? Hell, sending him there would actually be merciful on Forresters' part, because keeping an innocent girl chained & forcing her to kiss a rotting head on a stick can't even be called a retaliation for Gryff's missing eye or dead father. It wasn't even an act of vengeance against Forresters, it was straight up wrong sick shit. And yet, the moment it is Torrhen who gets to punish Gryff, I refuse to admit it was justice. Not after all he's done to him. Not after what Torrhen himself deserves for doing all that to him. It's the epitome of unfair, how after all the abuse he still got to deliver the last blow, the last humiliation, how he got his last victory, got his way, got everything he wanted, even though he never deserved it. He got to keep believing, that Gryff owed him shit "for taking their mother from him" & never got called out on that piece of dogcrap rhetoric by anyone, which makes me assume he'll just remain that way till the day he's dead. That is just... I don't know. That's just wrong.
Neither he deserved the chance of making sure Gryff won't get to see Roslin again. Aw fuck, he didn't even get to say goodbye to her, I realize that now. I want to believe so badly they met on Gryff's way to the courtyard, accidentally stumbled upon each other & had one last hug. Probably never happened, but I don't give a flying one. How is Torrhen going to explain this to Ros, I wonder? Or will it be Greta who'll deliver the news that her uncle will never sneak in to see her again? As if Roslin hasn't been through more shit than she could ever deserve already. I really, really hope that she posseses the same ability to bounce back as Kyra does, though I am not sure — while Kyra has got through loosing a brother, witnessing a battle, getting the news of both her father's & sister's death gradually, which could've prepared & hardened her, Roslin has never really been through bad things before. I can't imagine what a state she must be in now, after realizing her world isn't as safe as she thought, that bad people can still find their way in & even father can't always protect her?.. I just hope this won't affect her too much. Torrhen & Greta are certainly going to cuddle the hell out of her & do whatever it takes to make her feel safe at her own home again, which has to work. And I do believe, that it will.
I'd like to clarify, that as much as it has caused me all these negative emotions & as much as I yelled, I do not consider the plot point to be a bad one & character's actions to be ooc. With how much power Torrhen had over Gryff, this makes sense. With the way humans function, obviously, it would not be realistic if Torrhen got all the bullshit out of his head at once & acknowledged all his mistakes. That makes sense too. I have to admit, that Torrhen did quite a lot of good that day — admitted his wrongdoings, treated Myles fairly, got his priorities straight, respected Gwyn's freedom. Sorry, but I just do not consider this particular deed of his to be the right thing. This is not the new, more progressive Torrhen, it's the old bastard part of him getting his way. And that's fine. Plot points don't become bad ones because of pissing me off. Everything couldn't end fairly. Everyone couldn't be redeemed about their every wrongdoing. Wrong things happen. It's ASOIAF universe this takes place in after all. With that said — I should be grateful Gryff even has a second chance, & while it didn't sound like I am, I'm actually grateful.
Speaking of Gryff... It makes me wonder what is going to happen to him next in the au universe. I don't know. His problems, his attitude & mental issues & trauma are still legit problems that'll keep haunting him; a black cloak doesn't just erase a whole fucked up previous life. There will be consequences, for he is the man that he is, and if anything about him changes, it'll have to change for a reason. With everything he's been through, fairness of this situation probably matters less than just a chance to start anew, without his brothers's abuse — although again, an actual choice would be a far better start. Will things ever work out for him? Maybe. I don't know. I mean, Cley Cerwyn did already offer all the criminals from Castle Cerwyn's cellars in exchange for the Watch letting Gryff go before he has taken the black, but that'd be more of an agokaf scenario (not to say im not gonna add such verse...). As a Gryff roleplayer, I'd say, that you can count on him to try & flee on his way to the Wall & when he's there — try & go before he has taken the vow & would be considered a deserter for it (I'm not sure if that'd work, but I do believe newcomers are given a chance to do that...). In the context of the au though, since he'll likely end up as a watcher indeed — I mean, all the wiki pages already say he is, so I assume that trip to the Wall was a really short one... Who knows what'll happen. Maybe he'll indeed be able to "make friends", and come to think of it — I wonder if he & Astor Greyson could possibly find a common ground? Both are last sons with fierce tempers, and even though that's where their similarities end, I still consider this to be a neat possibility. One day I might even try my hand writing a fanfic, with my interpretation of how Gryff being a watcher went down... No telling, lately I've been terrible with writing, so we'll see about that.
To conclude the topic, this part has just made my belief in one curious asoiaf theory firmer — the one that says, that after the books end & white walkers are defeated, the Watch will no longer be needed & will stop it's existence... Ha. Haha. Hahaha. Guess we're gonna have to wait & see, riiight?.. :] Either way, whether it will or not, Gryff shall forever remain a Whitehill. Torrhen can suck it, with making sure he "never intervenes with them again" & only keeping the family members he personally fancies around. A Whitehill is still a Whitehill, my friend, and that is something you'll never be able to change. I don't care if you believe you've created an entirely new house, where the likes of Gryff don't belong — Highpoint will always be his home & he'll always have as much right to call himself a Whitehill as you do. He's still Roslin's uncle & Edric's, Axel's & Denys's cousin. Nothing is over for him. Not a bloody chance.
This was another great part of this epilogue, Badger. It has caused me a giant mess of different emotions, but that just shows that the investment level was high — pros to the creator. I was angry, sad, relieved, and in the end — happy that you gave us this, that more characters's fates got resolved, that we got more details, more interaction, more development — the development in the au never really stops, doesn't matter if it's the prologue or the epilogue. It just keeps getting bigger & better & that's fascinating to watch. Speaking of it getting bigger, know that I am reading all the new wiki pages, featuring events of the Mother's March, and I do have things I'd like to say about it. Might not be as big as this review, but I certainly will get to it, so perhaps you could post the links to those parts in this thread, so that I comment them? We shouldn't let this thread die, Badger, and you know that!.. xD I mean, longass walls of text on tumblr look less epic than they do here, therefore I really value this platform :ь And even if I'm the slowest piece of poo in the universe, I hope to write more about the au here.
You can thank her for that. When I'm stuck for dialogue, she's my first port of call for help. She knows the characters just as well as I do and can give me a perfect idea of where to take a scene; Myles voicing his confusion about Karl was actually one of her suggestions, as was a lot of Greta's dialogue in this scene.
Myles was incredibly sold on the Whitehill thing until Eddard's death. Being told Karl was his dad at such an unfortunate time and to feel little about the man's actual death, then to have the man who had 'lied' to him die and be hit with a ton of emotion confused him but I think it also set him straight - he knew deep down that he was always a Thornton and wouldn't change it. While he accepts his true parentage, he sees Ned as his father even if the man was a bit rough around the edges - especially towards the end.
I think he does to an extent. Being lied to is never good, but I think Myles is on the path to forgiveness. He's got a sociopath's blood in him, but he's got Ironsmith in him too. He knows justice and fairness and I think Torrhen's words about Eddard coming all this way solidified in his mind that Ned was his 'real' father.
Myles and Roslin was a relationship I would have liked to explore. In that scene where Torrhen is shown Grag's head I think Roslin was originally going to hold Myles' hand but things ended with them not being in the room at the same time. Offscreen they had a friendly relationship (I think Myles was a bit reluctant to start with given how full-on Ros can be) so I think Myles would be angry at Ned about what he did, but I think it's the only thing he's still sour about. The rest is just confusing for him.
I think Myles will have to be a bit of a diplomat between the two houses. Torrhen is all for making amends post-truce and being a massive suck up, but Stillport is harder to convince.
Greta and Torrhen is one of my favourite parts of the AU. I love how they're character foils for one another and complete opposites, but they have middle ground where they work really well together too. Through Torrhen, Greta has become stronger and more confident, while Greta has helped Torrhen be a better person (as much as can be done about that fucker given how his own upbringing was complete shite).
Let's be glad Talia exists, then. She did it, she humbled him a bit - and being brought down by a 14-year-old couldn't have helped Torrhen's ego.
Pretty much. The line that was crossed was when Roslin got hurt and things started to unravel. Playing at being Karl worked for Torrhen for a long, long time, but then pretending to be his older brother got his daughter hurt and he had to make the choice to start thinking critically about Karl. Karl was supposed to be perfect, but acting like him got Ros hurt, so Karl couldn't be perfect... and then, of course, Torrhen tries to go back in his head and find instances where Karl wasn't perfect and memories start coming to the surface and the guy realises what a fucking idiot he's been.
Torrhen and Talia is great. I think the two things that Torrhen likes about Talia are A) she bested him in a fight which no one else has done in, what, 12 years? and
that she was the one who made the decision to make the truce and was firm about it, while Rodrik's balls shrivelled and he had to look to his little sister for support. Talia's mind was already made up when she spared Torrhen's life, but Rodrik kept faffing about. Torrhen admires the girl's conviction.
I can honestly see him calling her his 'friend' and shit because he admires and respects her so much. Torrhen finds strong women in a world like Westeros great; Alanna, Gwyn, Greta... Talia fits that list too and his words to the Ashwoods state he wants Ros to be strong as well. And Elyse, when she comes along, hoo boy...
At Torrhen's 29th nameday feast, Talia's going to walk through those doors ahead of Rodrik, Elaena and Harrold like she owns the damn place, and Torrhen's going to love every second of that. Every time she glares at him from now on he's going to be like "man, that kid is so fucking cool."
Arys was such a good guy. I would've loved to have more reaction to his death (i.e Greta being close to tears and calling him a 'stupid bloody idiot' because she didn't want him to die), but it wasn't the focus of the scene. Rest assured, though, Arys and House Mount will have an excellent send-off, because that guy was like a father to Torrhen and Greta, even if the latter only knew him for a year or so. He's with Rowena and Alayne now... and if you don't know who they are, then that's the tragedy of Ser Arys Mount.
I think he'd be neutral. I can't see him reassuring her because that's not what their relationship is like, but he wouldn't blame her. It'd just be awkward and he does want her to come home because she's family. She needs her space to realise Torrhen won't lay a finger on her for playing a part in Roslin's injuries or even injuring the Lord himself, and then she'll be home. She needs a sabbatical like Namond does.
Yep - Janos Ironsmith, Brandon (who is on thin ice atm - God knows why Torrhen didn't give him up when he had the chance), Olyvar Cottar, Dickon Hawk's-Eye and Rickard of the Barrens. Janos and the last three are pretty chill guys, so any problems in the guard will come from Brandon's direction. I think seeing what happened to Boros and Hullen may keep him in line for a while, though.
He would've. Torrhen gives credit where it's due (to most people) and would have given Harys a place on the guard if he'd succeeded in his task, but Harys failed, got his head smashed in with a plank of wood and now he's missing. I wonder where he got to...
I know at least 4 men who will join the Elite Guard at some point. 2 in the near future, 2 around AGOKAF time. A fifth man is a potential candidate, but his loyalties are conflicted. We'll hear about at least one of the new additions by the end of the Mother's March.
The Ashwoods are weird. They're bizarre. I love them. Be it Lothor and Delena and their weird open marriage where they can fuck other people like rabbits, or Ashara and her sass (I assume you hate her because she hates Gryff), Remus and his quiet badassery, Dorren and his "milaaaaady" crush on Greta (not sure if you caught him grinning at her throughout his entire time on-screen) or Walder and his almost pacifism. They're a crazy hillbilly northern group of fuckweirdos but I love them anyway.
It's a shame G.Rickon isn't Ostyn's dad. The reality of that lad's biological parentage (much like Myles') is not a happy one.
Me too, but they were minor characters who I didn't even think of introducing until the end of part 2. Who knows what would've happened without them? idk... their role seems like a plot device in hindsight, I'll admit that.
OK, onto the Gryff stuff (in a reply bc post limit)
Less visible WARTS, man. That was just over-the-top Ugly Character Design 101.
Gryff didn't give a shit what happened to him which gave him the strength to be spiteful. The guy was suicidal in that moment because he knew he was beyond fucked, so he just took what little energy he had and threw it at Torrhen in the form of vitriol.
Devil's advocate here; they did almost lose everything because Gryff couldn't keep Talia held down, but it's something Torrhen didn't realise until now. It's not something he could have foreseen when he gave her that knife because it was so unlikely. Let's put it this way:
Basically, without Torrhen a lot of the house falls apart.
Torrhen's being as nice as he can here. I was trying to make the point that Greta inspired him to think twice and he means well with his words. He is giving Gryff a chance to do something with his life outside of House Whitehill, which has pretty obviously fucked him up by this point. He's trying to be a good guy - maybe not for Gryff, but for Greta, but the point is that he's making an effort. Torrhen not making an effort would have ended with Gryff either being put in a cell or being executed. He's giving Gryff at least some freedom here, where he can have no fear of being reigned over by Torrhen.
The paranoia's certainly something, but the Wall is full of people like Gryff and the guy's not a bad swordsman so maybe he could make a friend who respects his ability. Maybe just an acquaintance, but it's a start. In a way it's no different to being part of Whitehill O.I. I mean... Grag liked him. I think...
Torrhen deserves credit for being a good husband and respecting his wife's opinion >:|
I would argue that the point is that the positions may not have changed, but there aren't positions any more. Torrhen can't hurt Gryff any more. Gryff's out of his jurisdiction. He escaped, even if it was only on Torrhen's command.
It's a matter of perspective. Had Greta known what Gryff had done (as you later mention, his abuse of Milly and everything that happened at Ironrath), her opinion may have changed. You can see her conviction when she bluntly states she is glad Hullen and Boros are dead, and they did similar things to Gryff. Maybe if she knew a bit more about the situation, especially about the whole "Asher being killed by Gryff and his men" thing, her opinions may have aligned more with Torrhen's and Gryff's head would've been on a pike next to Hugh's before lunchtime.
I think this is where bias against Torrhen factors into things. What have we seen Torrhen do - for a fact - against Gryff? We saw him push him into the mud once and arm a child, suggesting she assassinate him. That's arguably less than what the Forresters did to him. Rodrik planned a full-scale assassination and blinded him in one eye. From what little we know about the actual goings on, Karl was the one who did the worst when Gryff was young. What Torrhen actually did to Gryff as a child... we have no idea, but considering Karl was the brains of the operation, I think Torrhen's participation would have only amounted to punches, kicks and pushes.
And yet... Ebbert was into emotionally manipulating Gryff which is arguably worse than bruises, but he gets a pass because he's not Torrhen. The second Torrhen makes an attempt at trying to do the right thing it's not allowed because it's him.
Torrhen's not a good man, let me make this clear. Not at all. But you've gotta at least afford him the chance of trying to be one. Even if you hate him, let him try for Greta.
But if he's started questioning Karl, the guy who taught him that idea, don't you think he'll start questioning that one day? Though I doubt any apology or attempt to be better will ever be seen as enough effort.
I s'pose we know what Ros is like. She sneaks out all the time - first into the Great hall when Grag's head is on the table, again when she goes missing and ends up being found by Ned. I can say she probably did bump into Gryff or something, especially if she was getting her scar checked on; Gryff's heavily injured from that fall so he'd need to be seen by a Maester before he departs. I've always liked the idea of Roslin pointing out that they 'match' with her scar and his eye.
Gryff's been out of Ros's life for three years at this point, if not more - the War of the Five Kings, then Harrenhal, then the Ironrath Garrison and finally House Whitehill of Ironrath. This is his first time home since he left in 299 AL (or earlier)... so I think she's dealt with it by this point XD
She dealt with Ludd's death, and she was close to her big fat grandpappy.
Looking back she wasn't all that distressed even when she had an open wound on her face. Kids are more resilient than they're given credit for. Of any type of person, I think children are the most adaptable and adults may worry too much about them. Look at Talia and how she adapted through season 1 - she coped better than Elissa did.
I'd also like to clarify that I don't mean any harm by my responses to your points. It's a discussion and we're both passionate about it. You may well be biased against Torrhen, but I've been writing the smug prick for over a year and a half now so I'd say I'm probably biased in his favour.
Yeah... Torrhen's still a 'villain', I suppose, but he's only just begun his path to reform, even if it's believed he doesn't deserve to reform. Maybe one day he can be a better man for his wife and kids.
Yep, it's Thrones after all. Gryff escapes, but with a life sentence looming over him. It's supposed to be... bittersweet, I suppose?
Unfortunately counselling doesn't exist in Westeros. The common form of self-help I've been giving the characters is a sabbatical. Time alone or with fresh scenery can help clear the mind. That might do well for Gryff.
Was this an RP thing? I don't check my blogs enough...
I think Season 1 Gryff would have tried to run, but AU Gryff is going with the flow at this point. He's just seeing where the tide takes him because he has no energy to do anything else.
I know what'll happen XD I might detail it at some point. A basic outline of Gryff's life on arrival at the Wall might help set the stage for the fic you suggested you might write.
I mean... Torrhen's bringing the cousins and Nolla home and they have a poor relationship. He's going to try and make amends with them, at least.
I'm glad you enjoyed it for the most part, even with the salt. It's good to see someone as passionate about my work as Cassie and I are : )
Sure thing, I'll link them when the whole thing is written out. I've written three out of the seven-ish major events I intend to cover.
I hope to write more too... I need to finish the epilogue, it's just...
other... things.... have captured...
my interest...
Next scene will be up for download 4/2 (this saturday)
While I'm writing out the response to the discussion of the previous part, I thought I'd just point out, that, I believe, Greysons are going to appear in this scene... & now I'm just gonna sit here & wait to find out whether I guessed right or not :ь
I can't say I think, that "sociopath's blood" matters here — as you yourself said, Roslin has Warrick's blood in her, but her personality is fully determined by the good upbringing. If anything, witnessing the raid of Stillport & being imprisoned by Warricks could have hardened Myles & brought darker side of him out, but if he never knew Karl or the way he were, I don't think the man could really influence him much? I don't know if disorders such as sociopathy can really be inherited, but to me it seems pretty unlikely.
Oookay, as much as I'm not a big fan of Rodrik, I feel like I gotta defend him here a bit xD Looking to his sister for support wasn't a weakness, from where I stand. If anything, it felt to me like Rod has admitted he has fucked up & wasn't making very good decisions lately, so he looked for advice of someone he trusted & respected. Admitting that he is wrong & Talia can possibly make a better decision must've taken some inner strength. It sort of reminded me about the time my Rodrik accepted Talia's help in ep 2 & she helped him walk through the courtyard. Idc if the garrison took it for weakness, my Rodrik wasn't ashamed of his sister's help, because he didn't see her as just a child, as someone insignificant. He had the confidence to rely on her & that was his strength, no matter how it looked like.
Wait, so Harrold's already going to be born by that time & they'll bring him along? Mannn, I'm getting more & more interested in that nameday feast. I wonder how Elaena is going to handle facing her father's killer (assuming Alanna will return by that time already, it's in a couple of months after all, I believe she'd already come back by that point). Who knows, perhaps by then, after Torrhen's help during Mother's March & an Ironwood Alliance with the Forresters, Whitehills won't be seen as that bad by Forresters & Glenmores? At some point, that event absolutely needs to be covered on the wiki!
His wife & daughter, yes. It's good to know ser Arys had a "substituent family" of sorts, that he found the strength to care so much about someone even after such a loss. Perhaps being a father figure to Torr & Greta helped him cope with the tragedy better? A lot of people simply wouldn't have it in themselves to as much as go on after loosing everything the way he did, much less remain a good person. Shows just how damn strong he was.
Alright, looks like I'm giving Torrhen credit one more time... Just bc I suddenly turned out to be Alanna trash & feel protective of the rude daughter :ь
You know, I sort of assumed he just passed out, got locked up with the rest of the garrison (since I don't think that hit could kill a giant like him, tbh) & is waiting to be executed by the Foresters. Now you've made me curious! Could he possibly wake up & escape before the battle was over? Where would he go in that case? Or perhaps some memory loss scenario occurred because of his head injury & now he just wanders, confused about wtf is going on? Shit, now I want to know what happened to him DX
This also reminded me — I wonder what is going to happen to the remains of house Whitehill O. I., I mean the surviving soldiers, given that sending them to the Bastion for their failure is no longer an option. I have a very, very bad feeling now & feel protective of my bunch of trash sons. Their fates will probably be revealed in Forrester's part of the epilogue & now I'm scared for them ;-;
I believe, I have once mentioned it when ranting in the tags of one of au's posts, that I don't dislike her because she hit Gryff or anything like that. If anything, that's probably the one aspect of her I can understand & accept. I mean? If I was in her position, I'd probably hate the man who imprisoned me too? But aside from that, I just can't stand her. The attitude, the bossy nature... everything. It's irrational, in fact, because she hasn't even done anything that could cause me to hate her — aside from, perhaps, the plot to trick Gryff & reclaim Ironrath, but I assume that Ashwoods as whole were behind that scheme, not just her alone? There are other heroes in the au, whose attitudes grate on me, but most times I've been able to find something at least a bit likeable or redeemable about them, so that while annoying me, they didn't deserve my hate. But with Ashara? Idk, I just don't see it. Nothing she says or does makes me even remotely get behind her.
Admittedly, I did not notice that, aside from the "milaaaaady" comment at the very end.... And now I don't know how to feel about this, tbh, should I be disturbed? xD Bc I sorta am a little bit...
Hello, that is something I believe hasn't yet been mentioned in the au or on the wiki? Congratulations, now I'm even more invested! Hopefully, if we get a Forrrester epilogue, this guy is going to appear. This type of character is something I need more of.
Well, I mean... Weren't things already this way with Torrhen in charge? It was clear house Whitehill of I. O. would not get any help from him to fight off Gared, or Ashwoods, and it wouldn't take long for any other possible enemy to realize Whitehills don't give a shit about the cadet branch & it's safe to attack it. Them simply being associated with the main line of Whitehills could only deter foes for a very short time. And again, I'm sort of getting a feeling Ashwoods knew about the way things are between Gryff & Torrhen, hence why they gave him back — not out of mercy, but because they figured this would be worse than death for Gryff. Makes me assume, that the enmity between him & Torrhen is sort of a common knowledge in the North.
Really? I sort of always thought it was the opposite, since the wiki states he was one of the few to question Gryff, meaning he realized what a pathetic leader he made. On the other hand, it does make sense, as Grag seemed to be the only one who actually tried to serve house Whitehill of I. O. & make a decent job out of it & even seemed kinda loyal to Gryff to me. Seriously, I loved that man, & you just made me love him even more. Randyll's sons make me miserable & cause me suffering & I love them.
Point taken. I believe, I didn't pay that much mind because I didn't expect him to do anything different — he's always respected Greta & been a good husband to her, and I honestly can't imagine that changing under any circumstance.
Yes, that's a valid argument as well. The part about it being on Torrhen's command is what bothered me in the first place, I believe. It's sorta of like — the war they've been fighting is over, but Torrhen still won it. He can't give Gryff orders anymore, but his whole life from this point on is going to be fulfilling his last order. If he just fled, the "war" would've ended on his terms, through his deed, and that would feel more like he is free now. For now, it feels like he didn't truly escape — Torrhen's still influencing his very existence in a very significant way. Who knows, perhaps it won't feel like that when he's at the Wall, or perhaps that's just the way I feel, not even Gryff himself. Maybe he doesn't even care & is just content with being out of Torrhen's reach.
Wait, I thought Hugh's remains were burnt? Otherwise it'd be a bit unlikely for his head to still be intact, after rotting for about a month while being pecked at by ravens xD But again, Asher's head looked okay three months after his death, so everything's possible.
I honestly have trouble imagining how things would've ended in the scenario where Torrhen would put Gryff's head on a pike, namely, because Roslin would likely get to know. Even if she has accepted, that Gryff can't stay with them at Highpoint, I remember how much it has hurt her in the rp that he died & Torrhen was happy, which makes me wonder — how would it make her feel if Torrhen himself was the one to kill Gryff or even order it? In this part we can see, that Torr isn't that clueless about how she feels about her uncle. It makes it sorta hard to imagine him actually executing Gryff, tbh, merely because it would upset Roslin & put a much bigger wedge between them than forbidding her to send letters to the Wall ever could. When I wondered how Torrhen would explain Roslin that Gryff's no on the Wall, I actually meant it more like "how would he explain, that he has sent him there", not "how he would explain that Gryff won't be coming back".
When measuring the damage done to Gryff by Torrhen, I've taken into account the stuff from the rp & wiki, as well as, of course, the au scenes themselves. It clearly states, that Gryff's fear of Torrhen is even stronger than the hatred he has for him, which isn't a good sign. In the rp, it says how Torrhen took part in forcing him to wear a dress & things like that, making me assume, that even if Karl came up with the ideas of what was to be done, Torrhen was mostly the one to execute them, which, in Gryff's mind, must've made him the "main", most significant tormentor.
There is also that scene in the au, which, for me, is the most important one in the whole Gryff-Torrhen dynamic — the one where the latter stabs out Derrock's eye. You see — yes, he is punishing a deserter, but how is he doing that? He could cut off some body part of his, kill him, send him to the Wall, and do that before they even were at Ironrath — but he goes for the eye & I believe this to be no accident. I have a feeling, that after loosing his own eye, Gryff's reaction to witnessing significant eye trauma is similar to, say, the way an arachnophobe reacts to being shown a giant spider. It is... pretty triggering. I think, Torrhen understands, or, more likely, guesses that too, and that is why he did what he did. He wanted the sight to disturb Gryff right to the core & ignite even more terror. That's what made me assume he is as capable of manipulation & twisted ways of tormenting him as Karl or Ebbert, but idk, maybe I'm looking too deeply into things.
You know what, Badge? Thanks for saying that. Really. As you can imagine, I think about the dynamics between Whitehill brothers a lot, and the one that I've never really mentioned is Gryff & Ebbert. I don't feel too comfortable voicing it, because sometimes it feels like Ebbert is treated like some can-do-no-wrong, pure being by most people, but the thing is — he is still to blame for that abuse, and as you have said, his part in it was, maybe, more significant than Torrhen's, not less. For me, as much as he can be a good person, he does not get a pass for that & I don't believe that he shouldn't be held accountable if Torrhen should be. Either it's both of them, or neither, it just wouldn't be fair any other way. And yes, while Ebbert feels guilty for what he did to Gryff, it basically means nothing if he doesn't even try to voice it, or apologize, or influence Torrhen & convince him to try & see things the same way he does. Sparing Gryff's life & giving him a chance to start anew at the Wall might not be a magic ticket to forgiveness for years of abuse, or maybe even the right to do, but it's something. Out of all three brothers, Torrhen is the only one who has done anything, so if any of them deserves the merest credit, it is him.
Well... Hold on there. An apology? ...If we're being honest, with the way Torrhen was portrayed, I've always thought that he can reconsider many things, but Gryff's case wasn't one of them. Are you saying, that if he has started questioning Karl, he is capable of admitting he was wrong in the entire Gryff situation? Capable of an apology? Because again, I've never considered him to be capable of one. I always liked to imagine scenarios where it could happen, but always kept in mind, that it's not even an agokaf kind of thing, but just straight up an impossibility. If that did happen one day though... I don't know whether it can be measured if it's enough effort. Maybe no possible kind of effort would be enough at this point, with the damage already done. But if Torrhen did apologize? I can safely say, that he would instantly gain my respect. I have no idea whether Gryff would forgive him or not (if we're being honest, I have a feeling he would just start laughing), but I can safely say I'd respect that. Surely, it'd take an enormous amount of strength — Torrhen himself says he has trouble admitting his mistakes, and that mistake is a big one. But that'd be the right thing. A step in the right direction. And while Gryff would not be obliged to accept it, it'd still be a gigantic achievement in Torrhen's growth as a person & redeeming himself, and I would respect it a lot (granted, of course, that it wouldn't be some bullshit like "sorry that u killed our mom, lol, u kno, ur still 2 blame, but eh, idk, sorry bout dat, kek", but a serious one instead).
I can't comment this, I'll just go & cry now, alright? Bless you, Badger, bless you, my noble ttgot lord, for this being canon. And one more extra blessing for getting Gryff to the maeser, because this needed to happen all this bloody time & I can only rest peacefully now that I know it did in the end.
What about the time he was home after the traitor helped the garrison escape? In the rp they interacted then & it'd make the most sense if it was canon to the au, I think? If he was home & Torrhen still wasn't (or was he? i don't remember, tbh), Gryff would definitely check on her, and even if Torrhen has already returned, he'd sneak behind his back, as usual, lmao.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that, good point! (not as good as Ludd being called "grandpappy" tho...) I think, you may be right about children coping better & I especially hope it's so for ttgot children, cuz there is no irl child I'd feel that strongly about xD Ros does seem to be holding okay, and I wonder how much did she even understand about what was going on & being said around her. I wonder how she's going to interact with the Forrester family at Torr's nameday feast after all that, but I do hope it'll give Rod a shit ton of guilt for as much as considering killing this precious cinnamon roll for some bullcrap revenge.
I don't think you have, at any point, gone overboard or been too harsh though? If anything, I'm the one who was far more salty, so there is no hard feelings.
It is good that you are biased in Torrhen's favour, given that many others aren't. It's good when a creator loves his heroes, antagonist or protagonists — that should be so in a good story, I believe. Gwyn isn't one of your faves — and in the au I never really cared about her, even if she's one of my favorite ingame characters & her portrayal was very canon & made a lot of senses. By the end of the game, I was starting to care less about Talia, and in the au she became one of my favorites again, like in first episodes, even though you portrayed her with regard for the canon too. It matters how you feel about the characters, and it's because you cared about Torrhen he came out so complicated & interesting.
By this point, I don't know if you can even call Torrhen "a villain", tbh. I believe, most readers don't see him as such & I must be the only one to have significant beef with him about something — and those who do dislike him do it for different reasons than I. Guy has his fanbase & receives far less hatred than he could. People like Cregan can be seen as "villains", having absolutely no redeeming qualities, but Torrhen's just a person, and while for me his flaws mean a lot, I don't consider him to be a monster or anything like that.
Hasn't yet been featured in rp, but me & Cley's mun have talked over Skype, & he says Cley would really try to rescue Gryff if the latter allowed it. Hear that, Torrhen? Gryff does already have friends, at least one friend. In that verse he's gonna let Gryff come back to his senses at Castle Cerwyn, bc Cley is just that type of guy when it come to his friends. He sort of treats them like family after loosing his own, so you can count on him to at least pay Gryff visits when lord's duties allow him.
Hmmm, lemme guess, since we can't know what'll happen to the Wall & Watch after the war with white walkers, for you to give us an outline of Gryff's life it'd have to end pretty damn soon... Or am I just being paranoid? What d'ya say, Badger? (: (: (:
I don't think Torrhen or other Whitehills have actually done anything bad to the cousins, so it'd be less making amends & more — trying to start a new, positive relationship? From what I know about them, it'd go smoothly with Edric & Denys, but Axel, the middle one, might be trouble. He & Gryff actually had a good relationship, because of their similar tempers, they understood each other well, and his mun says the guy is going to be mad when he learns Gryff was sent to the Wall. I wonder how Torrhen can try & make things smoother between himself & the lad. But hey, at least Gryff has one more person to send him letters and possibly visit.
I believe in ya, Badger! And solemnly swear to comment everything you provide us with) Sorta curious about what "other things" are, would you give me a hint? At least the fandom? You don't have to if you don't want to, of course.
Part 4.3 - "Restoration"
Mediafire hates me for some reason so this one's up on Mega.
I've split the Forrester parts thanks to my dying motivation, so you guys will get as much content as possible even if I don't have the drive to finish the whole thing.
Sociopathy can be inherited. Though I don't think Myles is a sociopath, he's probably inherited some sort of condition from Karl. Roslin is Taena's biological daughter and I don't think she the latter was born with any mental conditions that could be inherited by the former.
I always pick to accept Talia's help because I hate the possibility of upsetting her. I don't think accepting her help is anything to be ashamed of either, and it still gets the job done (the job being telling Grag/Generic soldier to shove it).
Yeah, at this point my timelines are fucked so I just decide when characters are born because it'd be interesting rather than keeping track of time. Karl should be 1-2 years old but telltale didn't bother giving me models for characters that age so he's permanently a baby.
They're locked up in the Forresters' dungeons for now. Dunno what'll happen to them, but they'll probably serve a long sentence.
Torrhen didn't know about Gared, and though he know the Ashwoods would try to take Ironrath when they found out about Ashara, he told them because he trusted them more with it. Had he known about Gared, he would have sent men to deal with them and stop the Forresters from getting it back.
I think Gryff will probably focus on the fact that he's away from Torrhen. He's paranoid about the guy and knowing Torrhen has nothing to do with the Night's Watch might alleviate his fears a bit.
Yeah, it's just a figure of speech.
I mean he could lie and say Gryff was killed in battle or something, but I'm not sure he has it in him to lie to Roslin. It's definitely a pickle, and one I don't have an answer to. Also I wouldn't cite RP stuff, because that's not exactly canon to the AU and a lot of it is from a long time ago when I hadn't worked out character traits properly.
Same comment as before ^
Personally this wasn't intentional on my part. Torrhen was punishing Derrock but cutting off a limb or something would lower their abilities. Derrock can still fight with an eye, while Grenn sort of sucked without his good arm.
I can see Torrhen doing that, but as the writer it was unintentional. That said, it all relies on how the reader perceives the actions of a character. So my opinions aren't really 'word of God' or the 'right' opinion.
This is what I mean, yeah. Ebbert may feel guilty, but he can't face it and ran away to be a Maester instead of doing anything about it at home. Karl died (and given his current characterisation I think his deathbed regret has long since been retconned). Torrhen at least did something about it, even if it was an ultimately unfair thing and he had to rely on Greta to steer him right. I'm biased but out of the three I'd say Torrhen is kind of the least sinful, at least in terms of Gryff.
I think he'd word it so that it is known he can admit he is wrong, but I don't think the word 'sorry' will ever come out of his mouth. There's too much history between them now. Gryff wouldn't accept it anyway.
I'm of the opinion that Gryff never went back in the AU. I have a feeling he met Ludd on the march and that's where he got his eyepatch from.
I feel like she'd stay away from them and prefer to hang around Stanler and Denys. She wouldn't be scared of Rodrik because she only saw him bleeding out on the ground, but she'd be confused about Talia. The girl stabbed and could have killed Torrhen, but didn't and Roslin isn't old enough to understand why. She'd be wary of them all because they confuse her and she's heard the name 'Forrester' tied to bad deeds by her father and grandfather.
I said 'on arrival' specifically, so I'd just write out the setup for exactly what happens to him when he shows up at Castle Black. Who he meets, what position he's given (ranger/builder/steward) etc.
I've spoken with their creator - Edric knows Torrhen's a piece of work and Axel wouldn't like him off the bat. Denys would be easily won over because he's young and impressionable, plus he has two first-cousins-once-removed that he'd get along with. The elder two would appreciate Torrhen making an effort, though Axel would be harder to please. I think their role in the Mother's March might help their relationships because Torrhen puts trust in them.
I can't say - it's still... uncertain right now. Just gotta know that it's something I'm hoping to be able to work on, and Cassie is a co-creator and writer as opposed to just an 'additional writer' like in the AU. It's a joint effort, and I believe what little we have already is more solid than the whole of the AU.
I can confirm that the finale will be coming in the next couple of days : D
UPDATE: February 14th - the AU will finally be finished!
Season Two AU Finale - "Family"
Thank you all for reading and humouring me, particularly those who stuck with the project from the start. I'm glad I could finally finish a full project, even if things could have been better. I tried my best with what I had, and it's been a good learning experience across the project as things became more planned and streamlined. I'm also grateful for the friends I've made along the way and look forward to working on what I have planned for my next project if things work out.
But I digress - I didn't win an oscar or anything. Please remember to spoiler tag any replies about this post as I don't want anyone's experience to be ruined!
P.S - here's something cool; the whole project took 1 year, 8 months, 9 days.
Also that ending, eh? I'll explain it properly when you lot have had chance to think about it yourselves :]
IRON FROM ICE!
I really enjoyed this Season 2 AU that you've spent so long making and the finale was amazing. I'm really happy with how everything worked out in the end. Hard to believe it's almost been two years since it first began.
Now, I'm curious to know; how are you feeling now that you finally completed this project?
Man, it's hard to say. Is there a word for being simultaneously empty and satisfied? I'm looking forward to what my next project might be if things out-of-my-control end up coming together.
Congrats on finishing the AU man. It's hard to believe it's only been two years. I remember first seeing it start on the other TWD Forum and then being thrilled to see it being brought over here. I look forward to your next project.
Out of all the scenes you created in the Season 2 AU, is there any that sticks out in your mind as your most favorite and/or most proud of?
Hmmm, it's a tough question. Honestly I'd rather hear what other peoples' favourite scenes were instead of my own, but a lot of my personal favourites come from part 3 as it was the most planned out:
The lords at Timberwatch ("Brothers of the Wolfswood"), because I got to make all these different characters who were minor in the universe and bring them into the AU. A lot of fanservice in that scene. A lot of me-service.
The scene at Warrick Bastion ("Two Evils"). I think at this point it's obvious I enjoyed making new models and expanding on characters who had little info about them more than actually advancing the plot. But hey, I did the whole thing for fun so it had to be fun for me to do.
The end of "Artifice" when Torrhen first reveals he's a dual wielder and the start of "A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing" when he kills the Brownbarrow men. Now I can't pose models for shit but I'd been building myself up a lot for that scene.
Well, now that you mention it, my favorite scenes would be:
Talia's walk through the woods with Lyarra and Quiver, singing the "Ballad of the Forresters Reprise", the final chioce in deciding Torrhen's fate and the final monologue.
Rodrik's bar fight, walking in on Gregor and Yrelsa in the memory, reunion with Talia, "The true lord of Ironrath!", and marrying Elaena.
Gared's battle for Ironrath, fighting Gryff and final scene in part 3.
So you might be interested in what happened after Lady Glenmore declared war on House Warrick. Never fear, I've got that covered: the War itself is called "The Mother's March", referencing how Lady Glenmore marches north in the name of her fallen daughter. Nothing quite like a pissed off mother.
Here are the individual events:
Oh, and here's a picture ft. our dear Ostyn:
Will you ever reveal Ostyn's true parentage? I'm absolutely infatuated with his lineage
I know what it is, and it's very interesting - and there's no telling how people would react. I think the pieces are already out there, someone just has to collect and put them together.
I'm currently trying to get people to guess who the woman with Malcolm was, but maybe Ostyn's parentage can be a thing after that. We know his mother was a peasant, and his father definitely isn't Rickon Snow (Lord Ashwood's eldest). I think there's a bit of a resemblance between him and his biological father...
Betting $50 this AU will be better than the next Season.
I've got a strong feeling this might be all we get and the official season 2 will never be released anyway... plus Telltale's track record hasn't been the best this past year O_O
You're mincing your words hardcore there, aren't ya?
I just binged through the entire AU and felt more satisfied at the end than I did with the game.
Oh, most definitely.
Haha it was all just a joke (pls don't ban us)