Should Trans be allowed to compete in the sport of their chosen gender?
Personally I think not but let me explain with an example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox
Fallon Fox
Got a sex change at 32 years old
Fights women in the UFC
Hospitalized many women she fought and they complained of the super human strength she had
I think they have to many natural advantages as men are naturally stronger then women
I just find wrong and unfair a 32 year old fully developed strong man can get a snip then beat the crap out of women.
I have nothing against trans and respect their decision but in terms of sports be unfair advantage.
What do you think should trans be allowed compete in their chosen gender or is there a unfair advantage?
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Don't mean any hate or anything, but its not fair, they still have the original gender's body parts except for the stuff affected by surgery, it's not fair.
I think sports teams should be separated on group level. Some guys are weaker than typical girls, and some girls are stronger than typical guys.
Personally, I've never shown an interest in sports, but I never had a chance to join a sports team. If I tried to go to tryouts for a guys team, I'd just be rejected because I have a "biological disadvantage due to being intersex." That was when I was 5 and my dad was trying to get me to play sports...so no issues anymore. I'll stick to internet surfing as my main sport.
Mm, the difference between genders is more about hormones than the literal parts. If a trans woman has been off testosterone (i.e. without balls) and on oestrogen, she certainly wouldn't be as strong as a man. I mean if a trans man takes testosterone, he actually basically grows half a penis himself, it's quite remarkable.
The current system is I believe that you have to be on your gender's hormones, and off those of your previous sex, for a set amount of time first, which seems fair.
Agree.
Yeah, sure but for special sport events like paralympic or translympic where this Fallon Fox would fight Caitlyn Jenner or Cher's son. It'd be fair.
Why would a trans woman on oestrogen fighting against a trans man on testosterone (cher's son) be fair?
Their strenght would be comparable, I think. That name is just an example. I don't know many trans.
I don't think they would be comparable, really. You don't have to know trans people to actually read about trasngenderism to understand it better. Muscle growth and development is MASSIVELY influenced by hormones - a transitioned man on testosterone is just as likely to be stronger than a transitioned women on oestrogen as if neither were transgender.
If you lost your providers of testosterone (your bollocks) your body would become much less masculine. If you look up eunuchs you can see, there's actually a fascinating history of it.
That's why there were scandals in the past when it was found female athletes were cheating by using testosterone injections.
It's a touchy subject, but I would say no. Bathrooms, yeah that's fine, sports entertainment? No.
I have to admit...in this regard I am quite ignorant of the facts. I think Fancies and Flog are right. Without testosterone it would seem to me that the only way to maintain the same muscle mass before they transitioned would be strict amount of exercise and conditioning. I would say if they were allowed, it would be a year or 2 after transitioning. It is a new world I think, with many questions that are invariably going to pop up.
I had a conversation about this with my dad not too long ago. He's got nothing against trans people, surprisingly, but he said he doesn't think it's fair, especially depending on hormones.
I kind of agree with him, but I suppose it would depend on whether or not they're taking hormones, or pre/post-op, or how long they've been transitioning. It's a complicated thing, and I do think each case needs to be carefully evaluated.
Trans woman here that plays volleyball. All of your "man strength" gets killed off after about a year on estrogen. I personally had my puberty blocked before it happened so I never developed differently than a biological female. Everyone at my school knows I'm trans because I told everyone and no one cares that I play sports.
Well, that explains it. Thank you for helping shed light on that.
It's already the case that you have to have been on the right hormones for a bit of time before competing
As someone who believes transgender people should have the same rights as cyst women, yes.
As a rule of thumb, absolutely not. It's hard to tell when/if someone has been sticking to their hormone therapy 100%, yada yada. Men and women are naturally physically different. It's easier on everyone if it's just not allowed and prevents anyone from getting a leg up on the competition (subtle third leg joke intended).
No.
It makes zero sense.And it's unfair to the other fighters/players.
With or without the boobs .He's still a man .
What you're saying doesn't have scientific basis. Hormones are the main influencer of things like muscle strength for genders and to compete you have to have been on your gender's hormones for a set amount of time.
That's why eunuchs become feminised. That's why animals behaviour changes a lot if you neuter them.
People seem to think the difference between a man and a trans woman is that the second has fake boobs and wears a dress, and that's it. These are people who've never actually read about transitioning. Take yourself to the library for a bit before you say what people should and shouldn't be allowed to do.
It really isn't hard? There are simple tests to detect the levels of testosterone and oestrogen in the body. And when testes and ovaries have been removed the body doesn't produce much of those hormones naturally.
The 'physical differences' between men and women are drastically changed after surgery and hormone therapy. For instance trans men basically grow half a penis on testosterone without any surgery. Muscle mass changes MASSIVELY.
That's why it was so controversial a few years ago when women were caught using testosterone to win sports games.
So you're saying a woman and a transgender woman can't fight, but a trans man can fight a trans woman and that's fair?
Isn't that flawed logic?
I'm glad that your school is accepting of you
I think it's more unfair to refuse to accept a trans woman's identity...at least refer to her by the correct pronouns.
The issue here is, if a trans woman fought a cisgender man, everyone would complain that the trans woman had an "unfair disadvantage," which is true, biologically.
Sometimes you just wish people were more accepting....sigh, maybe our future generations.
Fairer than former male, now female, beating regular women.
That would be lying . I refuse to do that.
Lying to who?
To the trans person.
how do u change profile image. im new
No. It's not about acceptance, it's about fairness towards the other athletes.
You can identify as whatever you like, I couldn't care less. But you are still biologically a man if you decide to identify as a woman and vice versa. Your body doesn't care what you identify as.
And men are still biologically stronger than women, that's just how it is without any intention of sexism or whatever. It's clearly demonstrated in the example in the OP, and there are other cases, like a transgender winning a cycling marathon etc.
Same goes for e.g. medicine by the way. Transgender women (if that's what men who changed gender are called) still need medical treatment designed for men and vice versa.
Ah so you think it's scientifically inaccurate?
How can you make such a claim when ignoring scientific evidence about the effect of hormones and surgery on the bodies of transitioning individuals above?
If you claim your opinion is rooted in science wouldn't it make sense to actually read scientific research on the issue first?
Transitioning isn't just changing your pronoun. Removing ovaries/testicles changes the way your body develops massively. Hormones change your body greatly - there are any number of scientific journals you can use to research this.
Think about dogs who change their behaviour when neutered. Or eunuchs.
Trans men who used to have ovaries lose regular supply of oestrogen when they are removed. When they take testosterone, in order to get to the stage where its the same level in the body as other men, their body changes greatly. They even grow half a penis due to nothing more than hormones.
In this thread lots of people are refusing to actually engage with scientific research on the subject, and seem to believe that it's possible to compete as a woman in athletic events if you put on a dress and call yourself Linda. That's really, really not how it works.
If you want to say what people should and shouldn't be allowed to do you have to educate yourself on the situation first, or it isn't remotely fair. These are a good starting point.
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/trgh.2015.0008
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214623715000496
http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/
Luckily the people actually making the decision about who should be allowed to do what in sport are actually aware of the scientific research regarding the issue, but I implore you, if you are especially eager to have an opinion on the issue, to educate yourself on it first.
TL;DR: If you don't fully understand the science of how transitioning from one gender to the other works, you probably shouldn't say what trans people should and shouldn't be allowed to do.
I make no such claim.
Whatever keeps them off the ledge ...i guess .
So you would say that you believe transwomen are still men for non-scientifically-accurate reasons? You don't think your beliefs are rooted in biology or any scientific discipline? How would you define them then?
I whole hearty believe that it's all bs . True .
One of the most ignorant things I've heard said on this forum
Go to your profile...click setting...change your avatar there.
Maybe.
But it doesn't make it any less true.
Do you believe it would be fair if Caitlyn Jenner played women sports? He'd be unstoppable (already was unstoppable back in the day). It just wouldn't be fair, at all.
If you're born a man, you're a man. If you're born a woman, you're a woman. It doesn't matter if I chop my dick off and grow long hair and boobs, I'll always be a man, no matter what.
Of course a female would be at a disadvantage if she fought a fully grown man. She would likely get the ever-living shit beat out of her. Imagine if Caitlyn Jenner fought a female; what do you think would happen? Bruce would probably feel like a God in the difference between his and the other females strength.
I understand acceptance whole-heartedly, but is it really ok to accept the transgender lifestyle? Is it truthful at all, or are we normalizing lying? These people need mental help, or else they will likely commit suicide; that needs to stop, and we can't allow transgender individuals to kill themselves. Lying to them, and the world doesn't help all.