In this very specific circumstance I'd say its not fair. If I understand correctly. She started in men's UFC as a man. Was fairly competitive there. Decides to change into a woman and compete in UFC's womens division. Whatever science says won't matter in this case. Many of the women will have seen her fight as a man. Many will say they welcome her. But some will only see a bully who can't be called a cheat because of political views. She scares them on a instinctive level. The fight game is 99% mental 1% physical. And that is the "unfair advantage"she'll have against any woman who saw her fight as a man. UFC has no choice but to let her compete,but ultimately,this could be very bad for UFC. Women are gonna feel like they can't hold back against her. Somebody's gonna get hurt badly and not necessarily who ppl would think.
I find it quite ironic that you're calling society "fake" when you were the one catfishing people by using fake pictures on here. I think we all know who the real fake person is here.
I wasn't saying Cope49 was necessarily using religion to justify their beliefs, just that the principles behind it are the same as they disp… morelayed above ("I don't need scientific reasoning to justify a belief"). Though I would say it isn't unlikely that's what they are doing.
For the 10th time .Noone was pretending to be anyone .
Which you and your piggy-backers fail to comprehend . But regardless of what I tell you , you're gonna hold on to that till your dying day .
If you feel you finally have something on me you're wrong .
You're telling me to get a life when clearly you're the one who doesn't have one because you had to pretend to be a different person.
Real hypocritical don't you think?
And yeah our society is fake but not for those reasons.
Well she's not hating trans people. She's not suggesting we lock them up, or put them into conversion therapy, she's not saying they're evil, she's not denouncing them. She's just not respecting the social norm of calling them their preferred name.
Let's keep hate and disagreement separate, please.
Well she's not hating trans people. She's not suggesting we lock them up, or put them into conversion therapy, she's not saying they're evil… more, she's not denouncing them. She's just not respecting the social norm of calling them their preferred name.
Let's keep hate and disagreement separate, please.
No. No amount of surgery, or whatever, is gonna make a person into something that God and nature just never meant them to be.
Men should be men, and women should be women.
In this very specific circumstance I'd say its not fair. If I understand correctly. She started in men's UFC as a man. Was fairly comp… moreetitive there. Decides to change into a woman and compete in UFC's womens division. Whatever science says won't matter in this case. Many of the women will have seen her fight as a man. Many will say they welcome her. But some will only see a bully who can't be called a cheat because of political views. She scares them on a instinctive level. The fight game is 99% mental 1% physical. And that is the "unfair advantage"she'll have against any woman who saw her fight as a man. UFC has no choice but to let her compete,but ultimately,this could be very bad for UFC. Women are gonna feel like they can't hold back against her. Somebody's gonna get hurt badly and not necessarily who ppl would think.
Hate is hate. Hate is looking at someone and finding them somehow deplorable. Somehow horrid. She's just saying that she disagrees with their point of view.
Pronouns are not rights. Freedom of speech is. I agree that trans women should be called she, and etc., but I also agree that people like Cope should be allowed to disagree without being berated, even if they are wrong.
As for her hatred, it's difficult to see what isn't there.
Yes, and that's discrimination. Discrimination is hate.
This isn't a matter of a debate on the best clothing brand. This is human rights.
Come on, is it really that difficult to see her hatred?
As far as I know that's not true. So long as your belief is applicable to what exists in reality you cannot use reasoning to justify believing in it. Don't get me wrong, philosophy has importance in science, especially in term of determining what is "true" (e.g. logical fallacies), but philosophy cannot be used to determine anything about reality.
Why under 25? Most men have had most of their growth by 18, younger even. You can't just pick arbitrary numbers.
I'm an out-of-shape 23 year old manlet and I could still beat the vast vast majority of woman in strength, stamina, speed etc.
As I said in another post, transmen don't matter because they'll be disadvantaged competing against natural men, not advantaged.
For the 10th time .Noone was pretending to be anyone .
Which you and your piggy-backers fail to comprehend . But regardless of what I tell… more you , you're gonna hold on to that till your dying day .
If you feel you finally have something on me you're wrong .
Hate is hate. Hate is looking at someone and finding them somehow deplorable. Somehow horrid. She's just saying that she disagrees with thei… morer point of view.
Pronouns are not rights. Freedom of speech is. I agree that trans women should be called she, and etc., but I also agree that people like Cope should be allowed to disagree without being berated, even if they are wrong.
As for her hatred, it's difficult to see what isn't there.
Even the top 5% of female military trainees can't compete with 95% of male trainees for strength, endurance, reactions, body weight etc.
Le… moretting women compete in male sports wouldn't change much as they wouldn't get anywhere, but letting men compete in women sports would destroy the game.
A woman's football(soccer) team in Australia, called the Matildas, was beat 7-0 by the Newcastle Jets UNDER-15s side. That's fit, competitive adult women being beaten by boys who have barely started puberty.
Men don't lose all that bone structure, organ size and basic muscle mass by taking some new hormones either.
The differences in body strength, size and stamina start at a young age. even if you started treatment before puberty (which I consider child abuse) it wouldn't necessarily change this.
Also, trans people don't make a third gender. They want to become the OTHER gender, not a new one.
Why under 25? Most men have had most of their growth by 18, younger even. You can't just pick arbitrary numbers.
I'm an out-of-shape 23 yea… morer old manlet and I could still beat the vast vast majority of woman in strength, stamina, speed etc.
As I said in another post, transmen don't matter because they'll be disadvantaged competing against natural men, not advantaged.
It's not being pretentious in the slightest, this is how it is for men. If you think otherwise then you simply don't have enough experience with both genders.
I'm an out-of-shape 23 year old manlet and I could still beat the vast vast majority of woman in strength, stamina, speed etc.
Ahh, let's not get too pretentious here, should we?
Yes, child abuse. Children are not the right age to make the decision and parents have no right to make it for them, nor do other adults. That sort of decision should only be made by the person, when they're an adult. I wouldn't even let a child get a tattoo in most cases, never mind 'change' their gender.
People are reluctant to see themselves as abused. As an example, circumcised men and women often say, "well I've got no issue with it", and then they continue the practice with their own kids whilst justifying it to themselves, "at least they won't have as much smegma now!" or some other crap. It's actually a well studied phenomenon, people's memories and feelings about memories can change to suit the ideas/beliefs of those around them. I can't remember the exact name of this specific study (think its was from the 1990s), but when they checked in on male victims of sexual abuse (from women) in adulthood, only 25% of them then considered themselves to have been raped, because society influences them into thinking women can't rape and men must not be victimised and their memories change to fit this world view.
Many people are reluctant to convict those that abused them because that would mean admitting to themselves and others that they were abused, it's a common problem. Nobody wants to think that their life has been ruined without their consent, they'd much rather convince themselves that that is what they wanted or that it's fine. That's just how humans are.
It's not being pretentious in the slightest, this is how it is for men. If you think otherwise then you simply don't have enough experience with both genders.
You have no right to say it was child abuse. My parents were doing what was right for me. You're saying transgender people need to wait until they're 18 to live their life?
And besides, I was going to need to go through hormone therapy at some point, best before puberty. Otherwise I couldn't use the bathroom, fill out which gender to choose on a form, etc. You'd take away my basic rights if people like you made the rules.
Yes, child abuse. Children are not the right age to make the decision and parents have no right to make it for them, nor do other adults. Th… moreat sort of decision should only be made by the person, when they're an adult. I wouldn't even let a child get a tattoo in most cases, never mind 'change' their gender.
People are reluctant to see themselves as abused. As an example, circumcised men and women often say, "well I've got no issue with it", and then they continue the practice with their own kids whilst justifying it to themselves, "at least they won't have as much smegma now!" or some other crap. It's actually a well studied phenomenon, people's memories and feelings about memories can change to suit the ideas/beliefs of those around them. I can't remember the exact name of this specific study (think its was from the 1990s), but when they checked in on male victims of sexual abuse (from women) in adulthood, only 25% of them then considered th… [view original content]
I said that "you appear to be ignorant that sex and gender is not the same," and you counter-argued, which leads me to believe that you believe sex and gender are the same. If this is the case, how would you explain the existence of these two terms if they supposedly convey the same meaning? Are they synonyms?
Religion should be held to scrutiny just as any other belief would, but I cannot find a way to do this without feeling bad that I could've upset the other person.
Please, let's keep religion out of here. That's a belief that you don't share with everyone, and laws should not be made on the basis of religion.
Religion is not a valid argument.
Did I say anything about pronouns?
Anyway, let's see....
hate (noun): intense or passionate dislike.
Aren't we glad to have google search?
Look, I can't change your views. I can only encourage you to support trans people and human rights.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"
So according to the Constitution of the United States of America, I'm guaranteed; as are all Americans, the right to express my faith, as well as the right to free speech, wherever and whenever I please.
I don't see anything disrespectful in what I said. If my viewpoint is different than yours, that's just what it is. It doesn't make it good or bad, simple fact is that not everyone is gonna agree on the same things, and they're each going to have their reasons for doing so.
Please, let's keep religion out of here. That's a belief that you don't share with everyone, and laws should not be made on the basis of religion.
Religion is not a valid argument.
I know, but you're using RELIGION to back up your stance in a LOGICAL argument. I'm simply pointing out that your argument is illogical and invalid, and doesn't add to the thread at all. This thread is, in a nutshell, a logical debate on whether transgenders should be allowed to compete in their transitioned gender's sport, not a place where we discuss what we can and can't do because some archaic and outdated book said to.
Also, I'm just so curious as to why you care about how other people express themselves. Does it really affect you?
The 1st Amendment sates:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; o… morer abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"
So according to the Constitution of the United States of America, I'm guaranteed; as are all Americans, the right to express my faith, as well as the right to free speech, wherever and whenever I please.
I don't see anything disrespectful in what I said. If my viewpoint is different than yours, that's just what it is. It doesn't make it good or bad, simple fact is that not everyone is gonna agree on the same things, and they're each going to have their reasons for doing so.
What you're saying doesn't have scientific basis. Hormones are the main influencer of things like muscle strength for genders and to compete… more you have to have been on your gender's hormones for a set amount of time.
That's why eunuchs become feminised. That's why animals behaviour changes a lot if you neuter them.
People seem to think the difference between a man and a trans woman is that the second has fake boobs and wears a dress, and that's it. These are people who've never actually read about transitioning. Take yourself to the library for a bit before you say what people should and shouldn't be allowed to do.
Sadly, its the lawsuit happy world we live in. By its very nature UFC is violently extreme. Fear is not something they would want to deal with. Just look to what happened the last few years with Miss Ronda Rouse. She keeps loseing in the brutal ways she has and her career is over. Why? because no one wants to watch her die in the octigon. As is the norm with this sort of thing. UFC has found itself in a bit of a bind here. I'm not saying ban her. But it seems to be a flip it around situation. If she had the surgery but not the treatments would she then be allowed to compete. with the men? No because that could look accidentally like a hate crime. (out of context that is) That said were we talking Bruce Jenner.....I doubt any of the UFC's women would object...(aka your probably right) rant over.
There's more to Gender Dysphoria than just a simple Disorder, it's more so a birth defect and allot of the reasoning behind gender identity 'issues' lies within biology, here are some links to scientific studies on Trans-sexuality:
There's allot more out there, feel free to continue your research before making your final verdict.
Also, where and from how many scientific studies have you got your percentages for those suicide rates and would you care to give us some insight on the causes found by those scientific studies? It's interesting that your hypothesis is that suicide due to their mental instability and you don't believe it's the more likely factor of Trans and Homophobia - as even today people are beaten to death for their uncontrolled affections towards the same gender or present any other factors in general.
I'd rather you do your research before blurting out what you think
I do do my research before posting.
Gender Dysphoria:
Synonym… mores - Gender identity disorder
Do you think forcing someone to dress a certain way and to only like and do certain things helps them from committing suicide?
No, and I never said that:
Suicide Rate Among the American Population:
Trans or Gender Non-Conforming: 41%
Lesbian, Gay or Bisexual: 20%
Overall Population: 5%
As you can see, the suicide rate in the transgender community is staggering. Why is that? Probably because that community is suffering mentally more so than any other subset of the US population. It's not "transphobic" to point out the fact that there is a problem among the transgender community.
Personally, these types of comments really anger me because you're suggesting now that I need mental help.
They shouldn't. I'm merely pointing out the fact that th… [view original content]
Comments
In this very specific circumstance I'd say its not fair. If I understand correctly. She started in men's UFC as a man. Was fairly competitive there. Decides to change into a woman and compete in UFC's womens division. Whatever science says won't matter in this case. Many of the women will have seen her fight as a man. Many will say they welcome her. But some will only see a bully who can't be called a cheat because of political views. She scares them on a instinctive level. The fight game is 99% mental 1% physical. And that is the "unfair advantage"she'll have against any woman who saw her fight as a man. UFC has no choice but to let her compete,but ultimately,this could be very bad for UFC. Women are gonna feel like they can't hold back against her. Somebody's gonna get hurt badly and not necessarily who ppl would think.
My god dude .Still ragging on old shit.Get a life
And our society is beyond fake.
Great news, we look forward to seeing you there!
You're telling me to get a life when clearly you're the one who doesn't have one because you had to pretend to be a different person.
Real hypocritical don't you think?
And yeah our society is fake but not for those reasons.
We are very excited to see her.
To be fair, you do not need to rely on science if you can justify a belief using philosophical reasoning—though it's clear @Cope49 doesn't do either.
Hope Im not
For the 10th time .Noone was pretending to be anyone .
Which you and your piggy-backers fail to comprehend . But regardless of what I tell you , you're gonna hold on to that till your dying day .
If you feel you finally have something on me you're wrong .
Spelling bees yes.hand to hand fighting . not so fair.
Why did you put Joe Rogan in the OP? wtf.
OT: I don't see much problem with this.
Well she's not hating trans people. She's not suggesting we lock them up, or put them into conversion therapy, she's not saying they're evil, she's not denouncing them. She's just not respecting the social norm of calling them their preferred name.
Let's keep hate and disagreement separate, please.
Yes, and that's discrimination. Discrimination is hate.
This isn't a matter of a debate on the best clothing brand. This is human rights.
Come on, is it really that difficult to see her hatred?
Please, let's keep religion out of here. That's a belief that you don't share with everyone, and laws should not be made on the basis of religion.
Religion is not a valid argument.
So we ban intimidating people? Is that what you're saying? If so, RIP UFC.
Hate is hate. Hate is looking at someone and finding them somehow deplorable. Somehow horrid. She's just saying that she disagrees with their point of view.
Pronouns are not rights. Freedom of speech is. I agree that trans women should be called she, and etc., but I also agree that people like Cope should be allowed to disagree without being berated, even if they are wrong.
As for her hatred, it's difficult to see what isn't there.
As far as I know that's not true. So long as your belief is applicable to what exists in reality you cannot use reasoning to justify believing in it. Don't get me wrong, philosophy has importance in science, especially in term of determining what is "true" (e.g. logical fallacies), but philosophy cannot be used to determine anything about reality.
Why under 25? Most men have had most of their growth by 18, younger even. You can't just pick arbitrary numbers.
I'm an out-of-shape 23 year old manlet and I could still beat the vast vast majority of woman in strength, stamina, speed etc.
As I said in another post, transmen don't matter because they'll be disadvantaged competing against natural men, not advantaged.
If using someone else's picture as your own isn't pretending to be someone else then I think you're failing to comprehend things.
Did I say anything about pronouns?
Anyway, let's see....
hate (noun): intense or passionate dislike.
Aren't we glad to have google search?
Look, I can't change your views. I can only encourage you to support trans people and human rights.
Child abuse? As a child who underwent hormone therapy, I can absolutely dismiss that statement.
Ahh, let's not get too pretentious here, should we?
It's not being pretentious in the slightest, this is how it is for men. If you think otherwise then you simply don't have enough experience with both genders.
Yes, child abuse. Children are not the right age to make the decision and parents have no right to make it for them, nor do other adults. That sort of decision should only be made by the person, when they're an adult. I wouldn't even let a child get a tattoo in most cases, never mind 'change' their gender.
People are reluctant to see themselves as abused. As an example, circumcised men and women often say, "well I've got no issue with it", and then they continue the practice with their own kids whilst justifying it to themselves, "at least they won't have as much smegma now!" or some other crap. It's actually a well studied phenomenon, people's memories and feelings about memories can change to suit the ideas/beliefs of those around them. I can't remember the exact name of this specific study (think its was from the 1990s), but when they checked in on male victims of sexual abuse (from women) in adulthood, only 25% of them then considered themselves to have been raped, because society influences them into thinking women can't rape and men must not be victimised and their memories change to fit this world view.
Many people are reluctant to convict those that abused them because that would mean admitting to themselves and others that they were abused, it's a common problem. Nobody wants to think that their life has been ruined without their consent, they'd much rather convince themselves that that is what they wanted or that it's fine. That's just how humans are.
Oh trust me, I have experience. xo
You have no right to say it was child abuse. My parents were doing what was right for me. You're saying transgender people need to wait until they're 18 to live their life?
And besides, I was going to need to go through hormone therapy at some point, best before puberty. Otherwise I couldn't use the bathroom, fill out which gender to choose on a form, etc. You'd take away my basic rights if people like you made the rules.
(and if you're not aware, i was born intersex)
I said that "you appear to be ignorant that sex and gender is not the same," and you counter-argued, which leads me to believe that you believe sex and gender are the same. If this is the case, how would you explain the existence of these two terms if they supposedly convey the same meaning? Are they synonyms?
Religion should be held to scrutiny just as any other belief would, but I cannot find a way to do this without feeling bad that I could've upset the other person.
This made me laugh.
Her strong text game is strong, though.
This thread.
You didn't actually say anything about pronouns. Which is weird, because that's what Cope was talking about in the first place.
Yeah, that's basically what I said. My point stands.
I do support trans people and trans rights. I just don't support bashing people for not understanding.
The 1st Amendment sates:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"
So according to the Constitution of the United States of America, I'm guaranteed; as are all Americans, the right to express my faith, as well as the right to free speech, wherever and whenever I please.
I don't see anything disrespectful in what I said. If my viewpoint is different than yours, that's just what it is. It doesn't make it good or bad, simple fact is that not everyone is gonna agree on the same things, and they're each going to have their reasons for doing so.
Fuckin' A Right!
I know, but you're using RELIGION to back up your stance in a LOGICAL argument. I'm simply pointing out that your argument is illogical and invalid, and doesn't add to the thread at all. This thread is, in a nutshell, a logical debate on whether transgenders should be allowed to compete in their transitioned gender's sport, not a place where we discuss what we can and can't do because some archaic and outdated book said to.
Also, I'm just so curious as to why you care about how other people express themselves. Does it really affect you?
Doesn't really affect me - despite not agreeing -. I say let them do what they want lawl
If you go through puberty as a male you will have a much denser and heavier bone structure, no amount of hormonal therapy is going to change that.
Hey--someone who finally acknowledges that it doesn't affect them!
Sadly, its the lawsuit happy world we live in. By its very nature UFC is violently extreme. Fear is not something they would want to deal with. Just look to what happened the last few years with Miss Ronda Rouse. She keeps loseing in the brutal ways she has and her career is over. Why? because no one wants to watch her die in the octigon. As is the norm with this sort of thing. UFC has found itself in a bit of a bind here. I'm not saying ban her. But it seems to be a flip it around situation. If she had the surgery but not the treatments would she then be allowed to compete. with the men? No because that could look accidentally like a hate crime. (out of context that is) That said were we talking Bruce Jenner.....I doubt any of the UFC's women would object...(aka your probably right) rant over.
I see it's been bothering you.
There's more to Gender Dysphoria than just a simple Disorder, it's more so a birth defect and allot of the reasoning behind gender identity 'issues' lies within biology, here are some links to scientific studies on Trans-sexuality:
BBC News
Oxford Academic
Oxford Academic #2
NCBI
NeuroImage PDF
There's allot more out there, feel free to continue your research before making your final verdict.
Also, where and from how many scientific studies have you got your percentages for those suicide rates and would you care to give us some insight on the causes found by those scientific studies? It's interesting that your hypothesis is that suicide due to their mental instability and you don't believe it's the more likely factor of Trans and Homophobia - as even today people are beaten to death for their uncontrolled affections towards the same gender or present any other factors in general.