Testimonium Flavianum is Christian interpolation. Fake. Most scientists agree.
And about John, he may have been historical figure, just like Pilate. But Josephus never says Baptist met Jesus.
Exactly. There are way more good, important things to learn from Disney movies than from some old book of fairytales written thousands of years ago. The latter being a "bible", "quran" or whatnot doesn't matter, neither does it make the stuff within them more important.
A lot of terrible ones as well. I don't see why it coming from the Bible has any bearing on whether it is good or not. A lot of good ideas came from Socrates, yet we don't suggest any of his ideas were good because they came from him.
Your comment has one fundamental flaw. Almost every other religion can be traced back to someone or some culture that formed it. Mohamad started Islam, we know that. The greek, roman and egyptian Gods all formed around the respective cultures as they came into being. But the belief in the God of the Bible can be traced back to people who lived long before any of those religions were born.
I fail to see the flaw. There are plenty of religions that predate Judaism. How old an idea is doesn't make it more factual, statistically quite the opposite.
The history of the bible has already been proven to be very accurate, and in the early parts of the Bible there are people who believed in God long before the other gods were invented.
No, it hasn't. There are people and places from the Bible that have, through secular evidence, been reasonably accepted to have existed, but the Bible is very far from a proven historical record. . . very far.
Judaism is the precursor to Christianity (not the culture of Israel, the belief in their God), and there is much evidence for it being the oldest religion
That's simply not true, and even if I were to concede that, which I don't, it doesn't make it any more factual than its followers.
It's reasonable to say that it inspired all others, and we know that all others were created by man.
It is not reasonable to say that. We know as certainly that the others were created by man as we do that Judaism was created by man. Special pleading much?
I cannot prove it to you, but it is much more likely that the God of Judaism and Christianity came first, and though He may have been invented by man (though I don't believe He was), that still gives it a lot of weight.
I don't need you to prove anything. I just need you to provide evidence for what you're saying, and additionally evidence for why Judaism being first (it wasn't) means it is more likely true, and additionally additionally why that being more likely true is justification for accepting it as true. It is more likely that an alien spaceship landed ar Roswell than it is a spaceship landed in my backyard 30 seconds ago, but that doesn't make it true.
Your comment has one fundamental flaw. Almost every other religion can be traced back to someone or some culture that formed it. Mohamad s… moretarted Islam, we know that. The greek, roman and egyptian Gods all formed around the respective cultures as they came into being. But the belief in the God of the Bible can be traced back to people who lived long before any of those religions were born. The history of the bible has already been proven to be very accurate, and in the early parts of the Bible there are people who believed in God long before the other gods were invented. Judaism is the precursor to Christianity (not the culture of Israel, the belief in their God), and there is much evidence for it being the oldest religion. It's reasonable to say that it inspired all others, and we know that all others were created by man. I cannot prove it to you, but it is much more likely that the God of Judaism and Christianity came first, and thou… [view original content]
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Remember Jesus Christ was crucified and so will those who choose to pick up their cross and follow Jesus. We know it will always be an uphill battle, we know it will be like swimming upstream instead of the easy route of going with the flow. What God has in store for His people is greater than anything man could ever offer. To inherit the kingdom of God for eternity is worth all trouble we endured here on earth. We choose our own destiny. We see the full picture, not just a portion of it.
Anyone can be persecuted or murdered regardless of their religion, that is true. But what religion is commonly known throughout history that some are constantly against? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians
I'm not sure if all of that is accurate, so I'll have to research a lot myself.
It must be a reason for the saying history repeats itself. So to learn the true historical events, is to be able to notice and see when it's happening.
Edit: Forgot to mention. Everyone will reap what they sow. If your acts are righteous, then your reward will be good. If your acts are evil, then your reward won't be anything to look forward to. So all those who did not repent nor accept Jesus Christ and have continued to do evil, will have to face God's wrath. That is the seven vials mentioned in Revelation. http://biblehub.com/kjvs/revelation/16.htm
We are on the fifth trumpet. The sixth is yet to come which the Anti-Christ will show up and play the role of Jesus Christ. The number 6 is the human number, God created us on the sixth day. "The great men who have stood out in defiance of God (Goliath and Nebuchadnezzar and Anti-Christ) are all emphatically marked by this number." 666
God gives people hope, yeah. But I'm beyond that. I've seen people get more than they ever deserve. And no hand of God came down to save the… morem. No hand of God came down to save anyone.
I'm not saying God should force people to do things, I'm saying that I've seen horrible things happen to followers of Christ. Continued suffering, out of the control of the followers themselves.
As for the whole, "Why would Christians practice Christianity if it would get them killed" thing... What? People practice religion regardless of laws and threats regardless of which religion it is.
We should have special hospitals for religious freaks who think prayer works and see at the end of the year which hospitals saved more lives. The ones where people prayed 24/7 or the one's where science was involved. I'm going to take a guess and say the one where science is used will win every time.
We should have special hospitals for religious freaks who think prayer works and see at the end of the year which hospitals saved more lives… more. The ones where people prayed 24/7 or the one's where science was involved. I'm going to take a guess and say the one where science is used will win every time.
Eh. Some of the things that have gone on are too unjust, and went too far without help. One of the greatest men I will ever know is forever ruined for reasons outside of his control. No scripture is going to fix his struggle for me. He was so strong for so long, but now his brain is cooked. Any God who didn't help that man is no God of mine.
So all those who did not repent nor accept Jesus Christ and have continued to do evil, will have to face God's wrath.
That's another thing that bothers me. That "and". You can not accept Jesus and still be a good person. In fact, 3 of the 4 best people I know are atheist. People who live their lives righteously. Just not for Jesus. If people like those are doomed to go to hell, then what kind of hell is that?
Are you sure God never came down to save anyone?
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believe… moreth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Remember Jesus Christ was crucified and so will those who choose to pick up their cross and follow Jesus. We kn… [view original content]
We should have special hospitals for religious freaks who think prayer works and see at the end of the year which hospitals saved more lives… more. The ones where people prayed 24/7 or the one's where science was involved. I'm going to take a guess and say the one where science is used will win every time.
Everyone has hardships because this is how life here on earth is. No one is dealt a good hand all the time. Some humans do evil things and it does not matter to them who they affect. Sometimes tragic events happen out of nowhere and sometimes people suffer. Either way, it's unfortunate.
Satan is ruthless and he will go after every single person along with the fallen angels who serve him who do not have the seal of God in their forehead. So if one does not know or care about learning God's truth, well guess what, that is exactly who Satan is going after. Because he wants the death of everyone's soul. There is only one person already condemned to death and that's Satan so he enjoys every moment when anyone refuses the Son of God.
God wants everyone's soul saved but that is up to the individual.
Eh. Some of the things that have gone on are too unjust, and went too far without help. One of the greatest men I will ever know is forever … moreruined for reasons outside of his control. No scripture is going to fix his struggle for me. He was so strong for so long, but now his brain is cooked. Any God who didn't help that man is no God of mine.
So all those who did not repent nor accept Jesus Christ and have continued to do evil, will have to face God's wrath.
That's another thing that bothers me. That "and". You can not accept Jesus and still be a good person. In fact, 3 of the 4 best people I know are atheist. People who live their lives righteously. Just not for Jesus. If people like those are doomed to go to hell, then what kind of hell is that?
So you would be okay with people just minding their own business, doing their OWN thing get sent into a mental hospital? If you think things like that is okay, I truly hope you don't plan on reproducing, because if you do humanity is truly fucked
Since you're so fond of your scripture, let me quote some of my own:
Psalm 34:4
I sought the LORD, and He answered me, And delivered me from all my fears.
Psalm 37:4
Delight yourself in the LORD; And He will give you the desires of your heart.
Isaiah 30:19
O people in Zion, inhabitant in Jerusalem, you will weep no longer. He will surely be gracious to you at the sound of your cry; when He hears it, He will answer you.
Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
Matthew 18:19
Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven.
Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask in prayer."
Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Luke 11:9
So I tell you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
John 14:13
And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
God talks CONSTANTLY about how he's willing to do good things for those who follow and believe in him. Yet still, there are people who God fails to save. Constantly. I know dozens of people who all asked for the same thing. Much better followers of God than I ever was, too. Yet nothing changed. We saw no help. We were left alone. If God wanted to protect his people. If God listened to the cries of his people, something would have changed. If God wanted to maintain some sort of abstract sense of "maybe he was there, maybe he wasn't," he could have. Yet he still didn't. Nothing happened, and so many suffered because of it.
I went over a decade trying to force myself to believe. It didn't happen, and I don't think it ever will. Trust me, I wish I could believe. My life would have gone much differently had I. But there are too many things to ignore, this problem just being chief among them. There's also the problem of the treatment of gays, women, violence, inconsistency... It's just not possible for me.
Everyone has hardships because this is how life here on earth is. No one is dealt a good hand all the time. Some humans do evil things and … moreit does not matter to them who they affect. Sometimes tragic events happen out of nowhere and sometimes people suffer. Either way, it's unfortunate.
Satan is ruthless and he will go after every single person along with the fallen angels who serve him who do not have the seal of God in their forehead. So if one does not know or care about learning God's truth, well guess what, that is exactly who Satan is going after. Because he wants the death of everyone's soul. There is only one person already condemned to death and that's Satan so he enjoys every moment when anyone refuses the Son of God.
God wants everyone's soul saved but that is up to the individual.
God is Life.
Satan is Death.
He was pointing out that prayer doesn't do anything. People wouldn't trust their lives to god when they could go to the hospital (where scientific inquiry has led to life saving advancements). If we compare prayer healing to actual medical healing only one of these makes a difference (many studies show no correlation between prayer and a preferred outcome). Another example would be letting a pilot land an airplane using prayer alone. If you were on a plane and it was about to land, and a voice came over the intercom saying "I don't know how to land a plane, but I'm going to pray a lot and we'll be fine," you would rightly, and rationally, freak the fuck out, because prayer does nothing to the real, physical world (besides cognitive tricks like confirm a bias, settle someones anxiety, what have you).
So you would be okay with people just minding their own business, doing their OWN thing get sent into a mental hospital? If you think things like that is okay, I truly hope you don't plan on reproducing, because if you do humanity is truly fucked
Would you believe in someone who does not believe in you?
God gives freewill. He is not going to persuade or force anyone to do anything.… more
You sure He doesn't perform miracles in present day? I didn't know you visited the whole population around the world and saw everything that there is to see.
Bad things can happen to good people and good things can happen to bad people...there are no advantages for any of us. Some people are corrupt and do horrible things to their fellow humans when in positions of power but instead of helping, they are a part of the problem, not the solution. That isn't God's fault, it's humans. If we listened to God, the world would be a better place.
Non believers are going to find out one way or another. Either by the end of their lifespan and they go to heaven and see it for themselves or by those still left alive during the end of this second heaven and earth age when the true Jesus Christ returns and ever… [view original content]
All those verses are indeed true. But like a parent, God will not always give you what you want if He knows it is not in your best interest. There is also a matter of timing. Sometimes prayers are not answered immediately or even the way you would think or expect. And of course, if one does not believe in Jesus Christ, then they do not believe in God. So how can God answer a prayer of one who rejects His son. To have no faith is like not knowing God. It is recommended to read everything relating to the verse to get the full picture of what is being said.
1 John 5:13-15
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
The evilness you see around the world is Satan's doing, not God.
"Immanuel (Isa 7:14) told of the fact that salvation would come to Israel only when God with us should be true as a blessed and glorious reality."
There will never be peace on earth for as long Satan rules the world. But it's only a matter of time when that will end.
"MAHER-SHALAL-HASH-BAZ (Isa 8:1-3) tells of the Assyrian hasting to make a prey and spoil of the nation, and reveals the need of the salvation of Jehovah. That, too, was only partially fulfilled. For there is another who is called "the Assyrian", and in Dan 9: 26 is called "the prince that shall come" (Isa 14:25) He shall hasten to make a prey of the nation; but there is yet another -- Emmanuel, the Prince of the Covenant - Who will destroy him, bring in, for Israel, final and eternal salvation. His name is called, "WONDERFUL" - "THE PRINCE OF PEACE." - The Companion Bible, Appendixes 103
No one should be violent nor murder nor any vile act regardless of other beliefs, religion, sexual orientation, sex, ethnicity, nationality, etc. To know God, is to know love and peace. However, God's people will not accept anything into their beliefs not of God that is foreign to God's Word. If it is an abomination and a sin to God, then why would any child of God accept such things as righteous and God still consider them His child?
Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination.
1 Timothy 1:10
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Luke 6:27-36 (Love Your Enemies)
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Since you're so fond of your scripture, let me quote some of my own:
Psalm 34:4
I sought the LORD, and He answered me, And delivered me … morefrom all my fears.
Psalm 37:4
Delight yourself in the LORD; And He will give you the desires of your heart.
Isaiah 30:19
O people in Zion, inhabitant in Jerusalem, you will weep no longer. He will surely be gracious to you at the sound of your cry; when He hears it, He will answer you.
Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
Matthew 18:19
Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven.
Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask in prayer."
Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that… [view original content]
Dude, Christians aren't dolts who reject science, I'm a christian, and I'm studying biology and human physiology. Yes, some denominations believe prayers can help, but some denominations don't even believe that, I just got in a very bad car crash, and we all prayed that my sister and I would be okay and that the medicine would be susceptible to us. We believe that mediation can be used and many other things of science.
You sound very rude to me, being prejudiced and making very insulting generalizations, even being smug about people losing their lives so that you are proven correct?
I hope you learn to be kinder about your beliefs, it's your right to believe what you want, but you don't have to be so rude and prejudiced about it.
We should have special hospitals for religious freaks who think prayer works and see at the end of the year which hospitals saved more lives… more. The ones where people prayed 24/7 or the one's where science was involved. I'm going to take a guess and say the one where science is used will win every time.
No. That's not what he said.
He was pointing out that prayer doesn't do anything. People wouldn't trust their lives to god when they coul… mored go to the hospital (where scientific inquiry has led to life saving advancements). If we compare prayer healing to actual medical healing only one of these makes a difference (many studies show no correlation between prayer and a preferred outcome). Another example would be letting a pilot land an airplane using prayer alone. If you were on a plane and it was about to land, and a voice came over the intercom saying "I don't know how to land a plane, but I'm going to pray a lot and we'll be fine," you would rightly, and rationally, freak the fuck out, because prayer does nothing to the real, physical world (besides cognitive tricks like confirm a bias, settle someones anxiety, what have you).
Unless you understand the past, you will not understand the present nor the future.
1st Heaven and Earth Age (The Past)
The Rebellion
If it were not for free will this would have no chance of ever happening but without free will then the love of God would not be real if it was forced. God wants our love naturally.
-One-third of God's children chose to follow Lucifer
He became haughty, he wanted to be like God. Those who followed him believes whatever Satan tells them. But he is full of deception and lies. For his fate is already sealed.
-Some chose God
These individuals have already made their stand. So come time the 2nd Heaven and Earth Age, He makes sure to watch over children and guide them to Him because all of our memories are erased from the 1st Heaven and Earth Age. These individuals God knows He can count on.
-Some were lukewarm
They chose neither God nor Satan, they stood for nothing and God says.
Revelation 3: 15-16
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
The 2nd Heaven and Earth Age (The Present)
God created the people of many ethnicities on the 6th day of creation and created Adam and Eve on the 8th day after the Sabbath. So many generations have since passed until where we are now today.
Every single soul born of woman will have no memory of their life from before this one. The reason why God erases our memory is because we are to decide who we choose because of The Rebellion. God or Satan. But that would be impossible without a clean slate. Those who chose God in the 1st age, He will not allow them to stray too far from Him because we don't know any better since our memories are erased. But I think He reveals who we are early on so we begin living in a way that pleases Him as before. The lukewarm, well God still doesn't like them because they stand for nothing. But it is always joyous when anyone believes, repents and pick up their cross and follow Jesus Christ.
Now because God knows every single person on His side plus everyone in general, so does Satan. So all those who followed him during The Rebellion are the very ones he is using to push his corruption around the world. People in places of high influence and power...yup.
The 3rd Heaven and Earth Age (The Future)
This will be final and eternal. Only the righteous will inherit the kingdom of God forever. Amen.
So to narrow it down to your statement. God is not going to interfere when this is our test unless it is His will. If He meddled in the affairs of humans to correct this and correct that then this current age would be useless. Therefore, all problems are human related because some do not listen to God in order for this world to be a better place. Right now, there seems to be more corrupted people influenced by Satan than those who live their lives as best they can according to Jesus Christ.
Edit: Satan runs the world. When the time comes for God to take over forever, there will be no evil, no corruption, no unrighteousness, no death, no pain or suffering or sorrow, no aging, no illnesses. Just peace, love, happiness and everything righteous the way it was before The Rebellion.
Which is when? We live in a natural world where time after time after time after time only natural explanations have been found in a manner that allows for predictive answers and only quantifications of natural phenomenon hold true. If prayer is not quantifiable then it is "certifiably" meaningless. Prayer will get you your preferred outcome no more often than not praying will.
The natural is all that can suffice. Again, you wouldn't trust a hospital or a pilot that relied on prayer in substitute for actually knowing what the fuck to do.
I didn't even give you much of my perspective on anything other than you sound a lot like Josh. I find arguing with preachy evangelicals is more time consuming and fruitless than it's worth. I just noticed your HUGE walls of text throughout the thread that consist of little else than "it's true, it's true, I know it's true!". Reminded me a lot of Josh.
What evidence are you looking for? Because you never asked a question or said anything specific in this instance, just gave your POV and nothing else.
I had to look up who Joshua Feuerstein is since it's the first time I have heard of him.
I cannot change your mind about that, but I believe when you do pray, it just creates a shift, like an ultimate in overwatch but that's just my belief.
Which is when? We live in a natural world where time after time after time after time only natural explanations have been found in a manner… more that allows for predictive answers and only quantifications of natural phenomenon hold true. If prayer is not quantifiable then it is "certifiably" meaningless. Prayer will get you your preferred outcome no more often than not praying will.
The natural is all that can suffice. Again, you wouldn't trust a hospital or a pilot that relied on prayer in substitute for actually knowing what the fuck to do.
Yes, it's just your belief. There is no evidence to support your belief, and plenty to discredit it. But you could change my mind very easily, just provide evidence to the contrary.
EDITED- You can see the effects of an ultimate in Overwatch.
I cannot change your mind about that, but I believe when you do pray, it just creates a shift, like an ultimate in overwatch but that's just my belief.
To each their own.
There are not plenty of religions that predate Judaism. As I said, the Greek, Roman and Egyptian gods were all built around those cultures, but the belief in the Jewish God can be traced back to before Israel was even formed. The Bible contains several genealogies that perfectly track with history. These genealogies show the passing down of the religion through many generations. Israel traces itself back to Abraham, and Abraham had a belief that was passed down from his ancestors. I'm not arguing that just because it's older it's more accurate, I'm merely saying there's more evidence for it coming into being earlier.
Pretty much everyone agrees that Judaism is at least one of the oldest religions, with very few predecessors.
You know who's far from proven historical fact? Alexander the Great. Compared to how many old manuscripts of the Bible there are, old Alexander might as well be fiction, and yet he's accepted as fact. Alexander is accepted as fact because of all the Archaeological evidence to support him, such as cities and coins. The Bible has also been proven by Archaeology to be quite accurate. You say there are locations that have been reasonably accepted as real, and you're right, there are hundreds of cities in the Bible that have been proven real, Heshbon, Shechem, and Susa to name very few of them. Another piece of evidence is the Hittites. The Hittites were originally only recorded in the Old Testament, and the lack of alternative evidence was used as an argument against the Bible's accuracy. Well, in 1906, Hattusas, the capital city of the Hittites, was discovered along with many records corroborating the Bible. The Bible was the only record of the Hittites up to that point, which gives it huge points over pretty much all other historical records. The Bible's history has been corroborated on countless occasions, and it's definitely one of the most historically accurate records if you asked a professional. To say it's very far from proven is just plain wrong.
It doesn't seem like you've done any research on this subject, since you have presented no evidence for anything you have said (or maybe you have a degree in this, I don't know). The Bible is one of the longest lasting, most accurate pieces of historical record, and that's what gives Judaism much more weight than most other religions, since this, again, very accurate history was compiled and preserved by the Jews. The Jews had a serious commitment to recording history as it was, not as they wanted it to be.
Your comment has one fundamental flaw. Almost every other religion can be traced back to someone or some culture that formed it. Mohamad sta… morerted Islam, we know that. The greek, roman and egyptian Gods all formed around the respective cultures as they came into being. But the belief in the God of the Bible can be traced back to people who lived long before any of those religions were born.
I fail to see the flaw. There are plenty of religions that predate Judaism. How old an idea is doesn't make it more factual, statistically quite the opposite.
The history of the bible has already been proven to be very accurate, and in the early parts of the Bible there are people who believed in God long before the other gods were invented.
No, it hasn't. There are people and places from the Bible that have, through secular evidence, been reasonably accepted to have existed, but the Bible is very far from a proven historical record. . … [view original content]
There are not plenty of religions that predate Judaism. As I said, the Greek, Roman and Egyptian gods were all built around those cultures, but the belief in the Jewish God can be traced back to before Israel was even formed. The Bible contains several genealogies that perfectly track with history. These genealogies show the passing down of the religion through many generations. Israel traces itself back to Abraham, and Abraham had a belief that was passed down from his ancestors. I'm not arguing that just because it's older it's more accurate, I'm merely saying there's more evidence for it coming into being earlier.
Pretty much everyone agrees that Judaism is at least one of the oldest religions, with very few predecessors.
Going to pick out some of the main points.
not plenty of religions that predate Judaism
Then you admit there are some? Why does Judaism get the courtesy of being labeled one the first then? Why are you not advocating on the side of Animism? And that also depends on what you mean by "plenty", because even a small handful completely discredits your claim, of which there were. There is also a very interesting documentary about the evolution of Judaism from a polytheistic religion to a monotheistic religion, if I can find it I'll link you to it. The Judaism that we understand, the one believing in yhwh, likely came about through the travel of escaped slaves from Egypt going north and is newer than the polytheistic version. This also explains the origin of the Moses myth. Animism, Hinduism, and some ancient Chinese religions predate Judaism.
The Bible contains several genealogies that perfectly track with history. These genealogies show the passing down of the religion through many generations. Israel traces itself back to Abraham, and Abraham had a belief that was passed down from his ancestors. I'm not arguing that just because it's older it's more accurate, I'm merely saying there's more evidence for it coming into being earlier.
"'I'm not arguing that just because it's older it's more accurate"
Then why does it matter that it "came into being earlier"? And again, there is not more evidence for that claim either. There were religions already in existence. I already conceded that there are some aspects of the Bible that are likely true (known through secular testing), but that doesn't mean anything in the larger context. There are aspects of the Spiderman comics that are also likely true.
You know who's far from proven historical fact? Alexander the Great. Compared to how many old manuscripts of the Bible there are, old Alexander might as well be fiction, and yet he's accepted as fact. Alexander is accepted as fact because of all the Archaeological evidence to support him, such as cities and coins. The Bible has also been proven by Archaeology to be quite accurate. You say there are locations that have been reasonably accepted as real, and you're right, there are hundreds of cities in the Bible that have been proven real, Heshbon, Shechem, and Susa to name very few of them. Another piece of evidence is the Hittites. The Hittites were originally only recorded in the Old Testament, and the lack of alternative evidence was used as an argument against the Bible's accuracy. Well, in 1906, Hattusas, the capital city of the Hittites, was discovered along with many records corroborating the Bible. The Bible was the only record of the Hittites up to that point, which gives it huge points over pretty much all other historical records. The Bible's history has been corroborated on countless occasions, and it's definitely one of the most historically accurate records if you asked a professional. To say it's very far from proven is just plain wrong.
You know who's far from proven historical fact? Alexander the Great. Compared to how many old manuscripts of the Bible there are, old Alexander might as well be fiction, and yet he's accepted as fact.
I don't care about some random figure from history that holds no weight in conversation today. We are not basing laws off of any books he wrote, we are not (trying to) base our moral systems off of what he said and did, and we are not acting as if Alexander the Great was the son of Sky Daddy. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This can also be applied to Socrates. We don't know the man existed. The majority of the accounts we have of him are through one of his pupils, Plato (iirc), but that is unimportant. It doesn't matter if he actually existed or not.
The Bible has also been proven by Archaeology to be quite accurate.
No, it has not. Some of the cities and some of the places have been accepted as true. Many of both have not, and the overwhelming majority of events portrayed in the Bible have definitely not been accepted (and likely never will, because science is usually a bit uneasy about accepting "magic" as the cause of an event).
The Hittites were originally only recorded in the Old Testament, and the lack of alternative evidence was used as an argument against the Bible's accuracy.
The Twin Towers have been independently verified to have existed. Therefore the events, places, and people within the Spiderman movies are probably true/real.
The Bible was the only record of the Hittites up to that point, which gives it huge points over pretty much all other historical records.
If that is what is required for you to accept something as a historical record then you should real the Iliad, or any number of other ancient books. These books used real people and places and mixed it in with a shit ton of fiction.
It doesn't seem like you've done any research on this subject, since you have presented no evidence for anything you have said (or maybe you have a degree in this, I don't know). The Bible is one of the longest lasting, most accurate pieces of historical record, and that's what gives Judaism much more weight than most other religions, since this, again, very accurate history was compiled and preserved by the Jews. The Jews had a serious commitment to recording history as it was, not as they saw wanted it to be.
It doesn't seem like you've done any research on this subject, since you have presented no evidence for anything you have said (or maybe you have a degree in this, I don't know).
I've done quite a bit of research on the subject, but mostly because of my own interest in the subject (no degree).
The Bible is one of the longest lasting, most accurate pieces of historical record, and that's what gives Judaism much more weight than most other religions, since this, again, very accurate history was compiled and preserved by the Jews. The Jews had a serious commitment to recording history as it was, not as they saw wanted it to be.
No. It is long lasting, but it is not historically accurate. it is not a good historical record, and it does not give weight to Judaism being correct in any way, shape, or form.
* There are not plenty of religions that predate Judaism. As I said, the Greek, Roman and Egyptian gods were all built around those culture… mores, but the belief in the Jewish God can be traced back to before Israel was even formed. The Bible contains several genealogies that perfectly track with history. These genealogies show the passing down of the religion through many generations. Israel traces itself back to Abraham, and Abraham had a belief that was passed down from his ancestors. I'm not arguing that just because it's older it's more accurate, I'm merely saying there's more evidence for it coming into being earlier.
Pretty much everyone agrees that Judaism is at least one of the oldest religions, with very few predecessors.
* You know who's far from proven historical fact? Alexander the Great. Compared to how many old manuscripts of the Bible there are, old Alexander might as well be fiction, and yet he's accepted as fact. Alexan… [view original content]
I read in between the lines, you didn't need to say much of your perspective after looking up Joshua Feuerstein which you mentioned thrice for emphasis.
I have already stated I am a Christian...nothing about being an evangelist. To share what I study doesn't make me an evangelist, not that there is anything wrong with it. If don't want to have a conversation, that's fine. Have a nice morning, noon, or evening.
I didn't even give you much of my perspective on anything other than you sound a lot like Josh. I find arguing with preachy evangelicals is … moremore time consuming and fruitless than it's worth. I just noticed your HUGE walls of text throughout the thread that consist of little else than "it's true, it's true, I know it's true!". Reminded me a lot of Josh.
No, I was disagreeing with your statement that there are plenty of religions that predate Judaism, not saying there are some. You made an entire paragraph arguing with me just by forgetting what you had said earlier.
You say it's likely that escaped servants spread the monotheistic view, but back it up with, again, no evidence. It's an interesting theory, but it's just that, a theory. The fact that there is no historical record of these servants ever doing such a thing, and that there is a long lasting record of the Exodus seems to make the Exodus more reasonable to accept as fact. Your statement does absolutely nothing to prove your point.
Well, your argument has shown why it's important it came earlier. If it came earlier, that means it predated the polytheistic beliefs. Also, of course every part matters in the larger context. Every piece of evidence helps to prove the Bible's validity. I mean this with all due respect, but are you really comparing the Bible with Spider-Man comics? The Bible contains massive, factual portions of history and to compare it to something that the writer states to be fiction is just a bad comparison. We're arguing historical accuracy, and this Spider-Man thing does nothing for your argument.
I'm not comparing the Bible to Alexander. You're trying to twist my words. I was talking about the number of manuscripts between the two of them, and saying that if someone with much less evidence can be considered fact, then the Bible shouldn't get dismissed so easily since we have THOUSANDS of ancient manuscripts of the Bible.
Yes, not all of it has been proven yet, but the fact that more of it is proven all the time should make you consider the whole more than you seem to. Now tell me, if God sounds magical, then why does nothing exploding into everything without a cause and accidentally creating a beautiful universe and a world that sustains life not sound magical? Scientists made up this theory with no evidence, and are glad to accept it as fact because it excludes God. They're fine with magic, as long as God had nothing to do with it.
And the Spider-Man argument returns. I did not say that the Hittites prove the Bible true, I said that they gave points to its validity in the historical record area. It is not the only evidence that makes me believe in the Bible. There are many other pieces of history that line up with the Bible and the sheer complexity and beauty of everything makes me believe in the God of the Bible. Do you believe that you came about by accident and that everything in this world that is good and beautiful was random? Science cannot account for beauty. It's one thing for an accident to make order, it's another for it to make that order nice to look at for no reason whatsoever.
I'm glad to hear you've done your research, most people don't give this sort of thing any real thought and I've actual enjoyed this so far. However, you concluded your argument by just essentially saying, "No, you're wrong!" It doesn't seem like you've really thought about anything I have said or factored it into your argument. The Hittites are an excellent piece of evidence because only the Bible kept a good record of them, and that does give points to its validity. I don't understand why you can't see that. The fact that the Bible got something that huge right, and seemingly no one else did should make you at least open to the idea of the rest of it being right, but it doesn't. It seems like you just don't want it to be right, which is not a good attitude to tackle any issue with.
There are not plenty of religions that predate Judaism. As I said, the Greek, Roman and Egyptian gods were all built around those cultures, … morebut the belief in the Jewish God can be traced back to before Israel was even formed. The Bible contains several genealogies that perfectly track with history. These genealogies show the passing down of the religion through many generations. Israel traces itself back to Abraham, and Abraham had a belief that was passed down from his ancestors. I'm not arguing that just because it's older it's more accurate, I'm merely saying there's more evidence for it coming into being earlier.
Pretty much everyone agrees that Judaism is at least one of the oldest religions, with very few predecessors.
Going to pick out some of the main points.
not plenty of religions that predate Judaism
Then you admit there are some? Why does Judaism get the courtesy of being labeled one the first then? Why ar… [view original content]
Unless you understand the past, you will not understand the present nor the future.
1st Heaven and Earth Age (The Past)
The Rebellion … more
If it were not for free will this would have no chance of ever happening but without free will then the love of God would not be real if it was forced. God wants our love naturally.
-One-third of God's children chose to follow Lucifer
He became haughty, he wanted to be like God. Those who followed him believes whatever Satan tells them. But he is full of deception and lies. For his fate is already sealed.
-Some chose God
These individuals have already made their stand. So come time the 2nd Heaven and Earth Age, He makes sure to watch over children and guide them to Him because all of our memories are erased from the 1st Heaven and Earth Age. These individuals God knows He can count on.
-Some were lukewarm
They chose neither God nor Satan, they stood for nothing and God says.
Revelation 3… [view original content]
Do you think he existed?
Yes, and I do think he still exists.
Do you think he was the Son Of God/God himself?
Yes.
And do you think his teachings are still practical for today's world?
Debatable. The teaching is like a song left for us to figure out its meaning. Some take the words too literally, not taking into account that at that time, the vocabulary was limited. :P
Comments
Josephus, the 1st Century Jewish historian, also mentioned him a couple of times, as well as also mentioning his predecessor: John the Baptist.
yes
Testimonium Flavianum is Christian interpolation. Fake. Most scientists agree.
And about John, he may have been historical figure, just like Pilate. But Josephus never says Baptist met Jesus.
Exactly. There are way more good, important things to learn from Disney movies than from some old book of fairytales written thousands of years ago. The latter being a "bible", "quran" or whatnot doesn't matter, neither does it make the stuff within them more important.
I fail to see the flaw. There are plenty of religions that predate Judaism. How old an idea is doesn't make it more factual, statistically quite the opposite.
No, it hasn't. There are people and places from the Bible that have, through secular evidence, been reasonably accepted to have existed, but the Bible is very far from a proven historical record. . . very far.
That's simply not true, and even if I were to concede that, which I don't, it doesn't make it any more factual than its followers.
It is not reasonable to say that. We know as certainly that the others were created by man as we do that Judaism was created by man. Special pleading much?
I don't need you to prove anything. I just need you to provide evidence for what you're saying, and additionally evidence for why Judaism being first (it wasn't) means it is more likely true, and additionally additionally why that being more likely true is justification for accepting it as true. It is more likely that an alien spaceship landed ar Roswell than it is a spaceship landed in my backyard 30 seconds ago, but that doesn't make it true.
The evidence is all around us but you will never see it because you don't have eyes to see nor ears to hear.
Seriously, you related to Josh?
Yes. No. No.
Are you sure God never came down to save anyone?
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Remember Jesus Christ was crucified and so will those who choose to pick up their cross and follow Jesus. We know it will always be an uphill battle, we know it will be like swimming upstream instead of the easy route of going with the flow. What God has in store for His people is greater than anything man could ever offer. To inherit the kingdom of God for eternity is worth all trouble we endured here on earth. We choose our own destiny. We see the full picture, not just a portion of it.
Anyone can be persecuted or murdered regardless of their religion, that is true. But what religion is commonly known throughout history that some are constantly against?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians
I'm not sure if all of that is accurate, so I'll have to research a lot myself.
It must be a reason for the saying history repeats itself. So to learn the true historical events, is to be able to notice and see when it's happening.
Edit: Forgot to mention. Everyone will reap what they sow. If your acts are righteous, then your reward will be good. If your acts are evil, then your reward won't be anything to look forward to. So all those who did not repent nor accept Jesus Christ and have continued to do evil, will have to face God's wrath. That is the seven vials mentioned in Revelation. http://biblehub.com/kjvs/revelation/16.htm
We are on the fifth trumpet. The sixth is yet to come which the Anti-Christ will show up and play the role of Jesus Christ. The number 6 is the human number, God created us on the sixth day. "The great men who have stood out in defiance of God (Goliath and Nebuchadnezzar and Anti-Christ) are all emphatically marked by this number." 666
We should have special hospitals for religious freaks who think prayer works and see at the end of the year which hospitals saved more lives. The ones where people prayed 24/7 or the one's where science was involved. I'm going to take a guess and say the one where science is used will win every time.
This guy here is the definition of insanity. Maybe it's you that should visit a special hospital?
Eh. Some of the things that have gone on are too unjust, and went too far without help. One of the greatest men I will ever know is forever ruined for reasons outside of his control. No scripture is going to fix his struggle for me. He was so strong for so long, but now his brain is cooked. Any God who didn't help that man is no God of mine.
That's another thing that bothers me. That "and". You can not accept Jesus and still be a good person. In fact, 3 of the 4 best people I know are atheist. People who live their lives righteously. Just not for Jesus. If people like those are doomed to go to hell, then what kind of hell is that?
I believe in the universe. I believe that there's something way bigger than us. But I don't like to use names.
So long as they aren't allowed to make their children, or allow their children, to do the same I would be okay with that.
Everyone has hardships because this is how life here on earth is. No one is dealt a good hand all the time. Some humans do evil things and it does not matter to them who they affect. Sometimes tragic events happen out of nowhere and sometimes people suffer. Either way, it's unfortunate.
Satan is ruthless and he will go after every single person along with the fallen angels who serve him who do not have the seal of God in their forehead. So if one does not know or care about learning God's truth, well guess what, that is exactly who Satan is going after. Because he wants the death of everyone's soul. There is only one person already condemned to death and that's Satan so he enjoys every moment when anyone refuses the Son of God.
God wants everyone's soul saved but that is up to the individual.
God is Life.
Satan is Death.
So you would be okay with people just minding their own business, doing their OWN thing get sent into a mental hospital? If you think things like that is okay, I truly hope you don't plan on reproducing, because if you do humanity is truly fucked
That's why I don't believe in him.
Since you're so fond of your scripture, let me quote some of my own:
Psalm 34:4
I sought the LORD, and He answered me, And delivered me from all my fears.
Psalm 37:4
Delight yourself in the LORD; And He will give you the desires of your heart.
Isaiah 30:19
O people in Zion, inhabitant in Jerusalem, you will weep no longer. He will surely be gracious to you at the sound of your cry; when He hears it, He will answer you.
Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
Matthew 18:19
Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven.
Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask in prayer."
Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Luke 11:9
So I tell you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
John 14:13
And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
God talks CONSTANTLY about how he's willing to do good things for those who follow and believe in him. Yet still, there are people who God fails to save. Constantly. I know dozens of people who all asked for the same thing. Much better followers of God than I ever was, too. Yet nothing changed. We saw no help. We were left alone. If God wanted to protect his people. If God listened to the cries of his people, something would have changed. If God wanted to maintain some sort of abstract sense of "maybe he was there, maybe he wasn't," he could have. Yet he still didn't. Nothing happened, and so many suffered because of it.
I went over a decade trying to force myself to believe. It didn't happen, and I don't think it ever will. Trust me, I wish I could believe. My life would have gone much differently had I. But there are too many things to ignore, this problem just being chief among them. There's also the problem of the treatment of gays, women, violence, inconsistency... It's just not possible for me.
Im a muslim. I only believe in him as a prophet-No where near as powerful as God.
No. That's not what he said.
He was pointing out that prayer doesn't do anything. People wouldn't trust their lives to god when they could go to the hospital (where scientific inquiry has led to life saving advancements). If we compare prayer healing to actual medical healing only one of these makes a difference (many studies show no correlation between prayer and a preferred outcome). Another example would be letting a pilot land an airplane using prayer alone. If you were on a plane and it was about to land, and a voice came over the intercom saying "I don't know how to land a plane, but I'm going to pray a lot and we'll be fine," you would rightly, and rationally, freak the fuck out, because prayer does nothing to the real, physical world (besides cognitive tricks like confirm a bias, settle someones anxiety, what have you).
Freewill, for me, it's the perfect excuse that religion found to justify god not doing a damn thing.
Anyway, I consider myself as a good person. I don't really do bad things, I'm just an agnostic.
If god does exist and send me to hell for not believing in him, even though I'm not a bad person, well... Maybe god is not worth worshiping.
Thank you I exactly think the same
All those verses are indeed true. But like a parent, God will not always give you what you want if He knows it is not in your best interest. There is also a matter of timing. Sometimes prayers are not answered immediately or even the way you would think or expect. And of course, if one does not believe in Jesus Christ, then they do not believe in God. So how can God answer a prayer of one who rejects His son. To have no faith is like not knowing God. It is recommended to read everything relating to the verse to get the full picture of what is being said.
1 John 5:13-15
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
The evilness you see around the world is Satan's doing, not God.
"Immanuel (Isa 7:14) told of the fact that salvation would come to Israel only when God with us should be true as a blessed and glorious reality."
There will never be peace on earth for as long Satan rules the world. But it's only a matter of time when that will end.
"MAHER-SHALAL-HASH-BAZ (Isa 8:1-3) tells of the Assyrian hasting to make a prey and spoil of the nation, and reveals the need of the salvation of Jehovah. That, too, was only partially fulfilled. For there is another who is called "the Assyrian", and in Dan 9: 26 is called "the prince that shall come" (Isa 14:25) He shall hasten to make a prey of the nation; but there is yet another -- Emmanuel, the Prince of the Covenant - Who will destroy him, bring in, for Israel, final and eternal salvation. His name is called, "WONDERFUL" - "THE PRINCE OF PEACE." - The Companion Bible, Appendixes 103
No one should be violent nor murder nor any vile act regardless of other beliefs, religion, sexual orientation, sex, ethnicity, nationality, etc. To know God, is to know love and peace. However, God's people will not accept anything into their beliefs not of God that is foreign to God's Word. If it is an abomination and a sin to God, then why would any child of God accept such things as righteous and God still consider them His child?
Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination.
1 Timothy 1:10
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Luke 6:27-36 (Love Your Enemies)
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
What evidence are you looking for? Because you never asked a question or said anything specific in this instance, just gave your POV and nothing else.
I had to look up who Joshua Feuerstein is since it's the first time I have heard of him.
Dude, Christians aren't dolts who reject science, I'm a christian, and I'm studying biology and human physiology. Yes, some denominations believe prayers can help, but some denominations don't even believe that, I just got in a very bad car crash, and we all prayed that my sister and I would be okay and that the medicine would be susceptible to us. We believe that mediation can be used and many other things of science.
You sound very rude to me, being prejudiced and making very insulting generalizations, even being smug about people losing their lives so that you are proven correct?
I hope you learn to be kinder about your beliefs, it's your right to believe what you want, but you don't have to be so rude and prejudiced about it.
You use prayer in a situation where the natural does not suffice.
Unless you understand the past, you will not understand the present nor the future.
1st Heaven and Earth Age (The Past)
The Rebellion
If it were not for free will this would have no chance of ever happening but without free will then the love of God would not be real if it was forced. God wants our love naturally.
-One-third of God's children chose to follow Lucifer
He became haughty, he wanted to be like God. Those who followed him believes whatever Satan tells them. But he is full of deception and lies. For his fate is already sealed.
-Some chose God
These individuals have already made their stand. So come time the 2nd Heaven and Earth Age, He makes sure to watch over children and guide them to Him because all of our memories are erased from the 1st Heaven and Earth Age. These individuals God knows He can count on.
-Some were lukewarm
They chose neither God nor Satan, they stood for nothing and God says.
Revelation 3: 15-16
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
The 2nd Heaven and Earth Age (The Present)
God created the people of many ethnicities on the 6th day of creation and created Adam and Eve on the 8th day after the Sabbath. So many generations have since passed until where we are now today.
Every single soul born of woman will have no memory of their life from before this one. The reason why God erases our memory is because we are to decide who we choose because of The Rebellion. God or Satan. But that would be impossible without a clean slate. Those who chose God in the 1st age, He will not allow them to stray too far from Him because we don't know any better since our memories are erased. But I think He reveals who we are early on so we begin living in a way that pleases Him as before. The lukewarm, well God still doesn't like them because they stand for nothing. But it is always joyous when anyone believes, repents and pick up their cross and follow Jesus Christ.
Now because God knows every single person on His side plus everyone in general, so does Satan. So all those who followed him during The Rebellion are the very ones he is using to push his corruption around the world. People in places of high influence and power...yup.
The 3rd Heaven and Earth Age (The Future)
This will be final and eternal. Only the righteous will inherit the kingdom of God forever. Amen.
So to narrow it down to your statement. God is not going to interfere when this is our test unless it is His will. If He meddled in the affairs of humans to correct this and correct that then this current age would be useless. Therefore, all problems are human related because some do not listen to God in order for this world to be a better place. Right now, there seems to be more corrupted people influenced by Satan than those who live their lives as best they can according to Jesus Christ.
Edit: Satan runs the world. When the time comes for God to take over forever, there will be no evil, no corruption, no unrighteousness, no death, no pain or suffering or sorrow, no aging, no illnesses. Just peace, love, happiness and everything righteous the way it was before The Rebellion.
Which is when? We live in a natural world where time after time after time after time only natural explanations have been found in a manner that allows for predictive answers and only quantifications of natural phenomenon hold true. If prayer is not quantifiable then it is "certifiably" meaningless. Prayer will get you your preferred outcome no more often than not praying will.
The natural is all that can suffice. Again, you wouldn't trust a hospital or a pilot that relied on prayer in substitute for actually knowing what the fuck to do.
I didn't even give you much of my perspective on anything other than you sound a lot like Josh. I find arguing with preachy evangelicals is more time consuming and fruitless than it's worth. I just noticed your HUGE walls of text throughout the thread that consist of little else than "it's true, it's true, I know it's true!". Reminded me a lot of Josh.
I cannot change your mind about that, but I believe when you do pray, it just creates a shift, like an ultimate in overwatch but that's just my belief.
To each their own.
Yes, it's just your belief. There is no evidence to support your belief, and plenty to discredit it. But you could change my mind very easily, just provide evidence to the contrary.
EDITED- You can see the effects of an ultimate in Overwatch.
There are not plenty of religions that predate Judaism. As I said, the Greek, Roman and Egyptian gods were all built around those cultures, but the belief in the Jewish God can be traced back to before Israel was even formed. The Bible contains several genealogies that perfectly track with history. These genealogies show the passing down of the religion through many generations. Israel traces itself back to Abraham, and Abraham had a belief that was passed down from his ancestors. I'm not arguing that just because it's older it's more accurate, I'm merely saying there's more evidence for it coming into being earlier.
Pretty much everyone agrees that Judaism is at least one of the oldest religions, with very few predecessors.
You know who's far from proven historical fact? Alexander the Great. Compared to how many old manuscripts of the Bible there are, old Alexander might as well be fiction, and yet he's accepted as fact. Alexander is accepted as fact because of all the Archaeological evidence to support him, such as cities and coins. The Bible has also been proven by Archaeology to be quite accurate. You say there are locations that have been reasonably accepted as real, and you're right, there are hundreds of cities in the Bible that have been proven real, Heshbon, Shechem, and Susa to name very few of them. Another piece of evidence is the Hittites. The Hittites were originally only recorded in the Old Testament, and the lack of alternative evidence was used as an argument against the Bible's accuracy. Well, in 1906, Hattusas, the capital city of the Hittites, was discovered along with many records corroborating the Bible. The Bible was the only record of the Hittites up to that point, which gives it huge points over pretty much all other historical records. The Bible's history has been corroborated on countless occasions, and it's definitely one of the most historically accurate records if you asked a professional. To say it's very far from proven is just plain wrong.
It doesn't seem like you've done any research on this subject, since you have presented no evidence for anything you have said (or maybe you have a degree in this, I don't know). The Bible is one of the longest lasting, most accurate pieces of historical record, and that's what gives Judaism much more weight than most other religions, since this, again, very accurate history was compiled and preserved by the Jews. The Jews had a serious commitment to recording history as it was, not as they wanted it to be.
Pretty much everyone agrees that Judaism is at least one of the oldest religions, with very few predecessors.
Going to pick out some of the main points.
Then you admit there are some? Why does Judaism get the courtesy of being labeled one the first then? Why are you not advocating on the side of Animism? And that also depends on what you mean by "plenty", because even a small handful completely discredits your claim, of which there were. There is also a very interesting documentary about the evolution of Judaism from a polytheistic religion to a monotheistic religion, if I can find it I'll link you to it. The Judaism that we understand, the one believing in yhwh, likely came about through the travel of escaped slaves from Egypt going north and is newer than the polytheistic version. This also explains the origin of the Moses myth. Animism, Hinduism, and some ancient Chinese religions predate Judaism.
"'I'm not arguing that just because it's older it's more accurate"
Then why does it matter that it "came into being earlier"? And again, there is not more evidence for that claim either. There were religions already in existence. I already conceded that there are some aspects of the Bible that are likely true (known through secular testing), but that doesn't mean anything in the larger context. There are aspects of the Spiderman comics that are also likely true.
I don't care about some random figure from history that holds no weight in conversation today. We are not basing laws off of any books he wrote, we are not (trying to) base our moral systems off of what he said and did, and we are not acting as if Alexander the Great was the son of Sky Daddy. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This can also be applied to Socrates. We don't know the man existed. The majority of the accounts we have of him are through one of his pupils, Plato (iirc), but that is unimportant. It doesn't matter if he actually existed or not.
No, it has not. Some of the cities and some of the places have been accepted as true. Many of both have not, and the overwhelming majority of events portrayed in the Bible have definitely not been accepted (and likely never will, because science is usually a bit uneasy about accepting "magic" as the cause of an event).
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The Twin Towers have been independently verified to have existed. Therefore the events, places, and people within the Spiderman movies are probably true/real.
If that is what is required for you to accept something as a historical record then you should real the Iliad, or any number of other ancient books. These books used real people and places and mixed it in with a shit ton of fiction.
I've done quite a bit of research on the subject, but mostly because of my own interest in the subject (no degree).
No. It is long lasting, but it is not historically accurate. it is not a good historical record, and it does not give weight to Judaism being correct in any way, shape, or form.
I read in between the lines, you didn't need to say much of your perspective after looking up Joshua Feuerstein which you mentioned thrice for emphasis.
I have already stated I am a Christian...nothing about being an evangelist. To share what I study doesn't make me an evangelist, not that there is anything wrong with it. If don't want to have a conversation, that's fine. Have a nice morning, noon, or evening.
No, I was disagreeing with your statement that there are plenty of religions that predate Judaism, not saying there are some. You made an entire paragraph arguing with me just by forgetting what you had said earlier.
You say it's likely that escaped servants spread the monotheistic view, but back it up with, again, no evidence. It's an interesting theory, but it's just that, a theory. The fact that there is no historical record of these servants ever doing such a thing, and that there is a long lasting record of the Exodus seems to make the Exodus more reasonable to accept as fact. Your statement does absolutely nothing to prove your point.
Well, your argument has shown why it's important it came earlier. If it came earlier, that means it predated the polytheistic beliefs. Also, of course every part matters in the larger context. Every piece of evidence helps to prove the Bible's validity. I mean this with all due respect, but are you really comparing the Bible with Spider-Man comics? The Bible contains massive, factual portions of history and to compare it to something that the writer states to be fiction is just a bad comparison. We're arguing historical accuracy, and this Spider-Man thing does nothing for your argument.
I'm not comparing the Bible to Alexander. You're trying to twist my words. I was talking about the number of manuscripts between the two of them, and saying that if someone with much less evidence can be considered fact, then the Bible shouldn't get dismissed so easily since we have THOUSANDS of ancient manuscripts of the Bible.
Yes, not all of it has been proven yet, but the fact that more of it is proven all the time should make you consider the whole more than you seem to. Now tell me, if God sounds magical, then why does nothing exploding into everything without a cause and accidentally creating a beautiful universe and a world that sustains life not sound magical? Scientists made up this theory with no evidence, and are glad to accept it as fact because it excludes God. They're fine with magic, as long as God had nothing to do with it.
And the Spider-Man argument returns. I did not say that the Hittites prove the Bible true, I said that they gave points to its validity in the historical record area. It is not the only evidence that makes me believe in the Bible. There are many other pieces of history that line up with the Bible and the sheer complexity and beauty of everything makes me believe in the God of the Bible. Do you believe that you came about by accident and that everything in this world that is good and beautiful was random? Science cannot account for beauty. It's one thing for an accident to make order, it's another for it to make that order nice to look at for no reason whatsoever.
I'm glad to hear you've done your research, most people don't give this sort of thing any real thought and I've actual enjoyed this so far. However, you concluded your argument by just essentially saying, "No, you're wrong!" It doesn't seem like you've really thought about anything I have said or factored it into your argument. The Hittites are an excellent piece of evidence because only the Bible kept a good record of them, and that does give points to its validity. I don't understand why you can't see that. The fact that the Bible got something that huge right, and seemingly no one else did should make you at least open to the idea of the rest of it being right, but it doesn't. It seems like you just don't want it to be right, which is not a good attitude to tackle any issue with.
Sorry, won't read it
That's fine. No sweat off my back. I'll even give you a like. Have a nice morning or noon or evening.
Do you think he existed?
Yes, and I do think he still exists.
Do you think he was the Son Of God/God himself?
Yes.
And do you think his teachings are still practical for today's world?
Debatable. The teaching is like a song left for us to figure out its meaning. Some take the words too literally, not taking into account that at that time, the vocabulary was limited. :P