Harley
I can't stand her, but I do wonder about her backstory in this version of Batman. Namely, I am curious about how she got to be a member of the pact. What are her goals and what motivates her? Supposedly she was an upstanding doctor before her father committed suicide. Why did his death so radically change her?
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Maybe because she cared about him a lot. He was her father. She just couldn't deal with it.
Its about as radical and ridiculous as a rich kid taking his parents death to the extreme by spending a fortune to be a grown man in a bat suit like wily coyote lol. About as ridiculous as Superman making a one world goverenment ruled by him alone becuz he was tricked to kill his wife and unborn child. No difference. In the comics people do extreme stuff else it be boring characters.
Jonathan crane aka scarecrow already proved to batman as well as joker that u need us villians in order to exist and justify your code. Without who is bruce but a man who couldnt accept his parents death. The themes of symbiosis and mental illness is in almost all the villians and batman. I believe real psychologists actually did a report on the batman series saying it wasnt for kids and the deep philosophies of mental illness and mentalities. Deep stuff if u google it.
Shoot in the injustice storyline right after the first game the comics pick right after it. There's a scene where a locked up superman tells batman you are just a monster as he is cuz u dont want to put your parents death behind but use it as a catalyst to rule with fear. Deep stuff lol. Batman left that room wit Harley overhearing it since she's with him in that universe and noted how harsh clark was to his ex friend bruce but guess what. Batman told Harley he was right.
I was curious about this as well. People lose their parents all the time and don't become cold blooded murderers. However, in episode 3 she describes her father as "kind of a disturbing fella". Maybe some of that craziness rubbed off on young Harleen.
That's what I got out of this conversation as well. The song he used to sing her is really disturbing.
Who knows what stories she has to tell...
I imagine it was more gradual than instantanious. You've got to think about how betrayed she must've felt though. In episode 3 Harley can reveal that she became a doctor because of her father. "Do you remember I used to be a doctor? Went to doctoring school and everything. All for my dad" That one line of dialogue reveals how devoted she was to her father. She made major life altering decisions for him. Went to med school, became a Psychiatrist, and more I imagine. To go through all that just for him to off himself must've felt like a huge betrayel to her. At some point I imagine she was like "What's the point?" in continuing her career that she pursued for him. Then in deciding to make decisions to benefit herself she turned to a life of crime. That's just how I see it though. Don't take that as factual.
So what you're saying is... comic books are like soap operas?
My dad died of leukemia. Neither my brother nor I became criminals. I mean, sure I shop lifted a bit but nothing of the magnitude as Harley. I am so tired of people using the excuse of personal suffering or loss to explain (and in some cases justify) doing the kind of stuff Harley does.
Oh. I think you are right about that craziness rubbing off on Harleen. So I guess the next question is, is she mentally ill?
I'm very sorry to hear about your dad that really sucks.
I think so far Harley has displayed signs of a sociopathic behaviour not a psychopathic one. The traits of a sociopath are: Repeated violations of the law
Pervasive lying and deception
Physical aggressiveness
Reckless disregard for safety of self or others
Consistent irresponsibility in work and family environments
Lack of remorse
Harley is shown to have a deep emotional attachment to her dad so that rules her out being a psychopath. She's also shown some of these sociopathic traits throughout the series. My theory for why she ended up the way she did was the constant stress of being a good doctor and looking after her father for it all to culminate in nothing made her snap. I think she always had the potential to be a villain this is just what pushed her over the edge.
She also strikes me as someone who likes to be in control of everyone and everything. She only seems to like John as a puppet to play with and manipulate to her own amusement and gets really pissed when Bruce rejects her manipulations while at Wayne Enterprises. Perhaps the reason why she dislikes Bane so much is because he's stubborn and won't listen to her. It's also shown she doesn't have a very high opinion of Freeze who is too devoted to his wife to let himself be manipulated either. And it's the same with Riddler who was shown to be the leader of the Pact and Amanda Waller states that they had a "feud" while Bane respected him. Even when left behind at the convoy, Harley gets furious at Bruce and John first; the two people who can be the most manipulated by her.
My guess is her father used to work for sanctus and they somehow made him go crazy. Maybe to discredit him as he tried to be a whistle-blower or something. It's a bit elaborate considering they could have just killed him no problem, but I feel like that would explain why she's going after sanctus. Part of why I think this is because its clear that Riddler hates the agency and sanctus. The pact probably banded together to deal with it and each has their own personal reasons?
Harley likes using her sexuality to try to control people, too. Or at least Bruce. She may actually be attracted to him, but I think the reason she flirted with Bruce as much as she did was to try control him that way. I think that's why, when they were in the elevator, Harley can pretty much say she wants to have sex with Bruce. Not sure if she actually meant it or if she was just stringing him along.
Bane might not find her attractive, and therefore not be someone she can manipulate.
As for Freeze, well he seems to only care about Nora. Actually, has any iteration of Freeze had a lover or expressed sexual/romantic interest in anyone else? No, she can't control him either.
I had thought about what you proposed. If so, that would make her marginally more tolerable. She still assaults or kills non-agency people.... so I'd still think she was an awful person, but I'd at least understand her motivations. Right now, all we know is that she creates chaos and likes to be in charge.
No, I totally get what your saying. She's still horrible, even if that's the case. I just think that, that kind of situation adds a bit more depth to the pact. They all seem to be barely working together, clearly after the same thing but with different motivations. So I get the feeling all of them have some sort of connection with Sanctus and that's why they tolerate each other.
And if her goal is to shut down Sanctus it still doesn't excuse her. She still killed people and the Batman has proved that, that isn't a necessary thing to do. She took the easy way out, basically.
It's not an excuse though. I don't like that term. It's a reason. By no means is it justifiable, but it's a reason. Harley's father committed suicide. She became a psychiatrist in hope of saving him. The details aren't there, but she knew how he died, so I'm gonna assume she saw the corpse until we get more details on that.
Thing is, you never resorted to the things Harley has done because you were strong enough not to. But you are only one example out of the millions of people in this world. For every person that rises above their grief and sorrow, there are a multitude of others who drown in it. More than we'd like to admit. And then they do things they never thought they'd do. It doesn't have to be mass murder like Harley. It just has to be something dark, such as drugs, crime, suicidal tendencies, etc. And then when no one else can help them that darkness ironically becomes their crutch and if they don't recover, it'll eventually become a way of life until it gets them arrested or killed. The mind can be very strong and very delicate but no mind is indestructible. One thing is enough to bend it to the breaking point. And that one thing might not be as big of a deal to another person. And if it is, that person might heal faster while the other inflicted person might not heal at all.
So comparing a strong mind in one unfortunate circumstance to a weak mind in a similar circumstance is inconsiderate. This goes beyond fiction. It's inconsiderate to actual people who can't overcome their demons as respectfully as others. Everyone is built differently.
I don't know. You saying that she has a weak mind, and that she can't help it, still sounds like an excuse to me.
I looked up the difference between reason and excuse (for better understanding for myself) and I came across a few. Essentially what it boils down to is this:
Reason : explanation of what happened
Excuse: an attempt to deflect blame
Also, when people make excuses it is always someone or something else's fault for what that person has done. In Harley's case, the trauma of her father's death was so severe that the only way she could deal with said trauma was to act out in a violent manner.
I think, for me, a reason why you might kill someone might be because they are attacking you and that is the only way you will survive, or you were doing that for another vulnerable person.
Harley taking out her anger at her father on other people, instead of dealing with it, is an excuse. She is not taking accountability for her actions. Saying she wouldn't have killed had it not been for her father's death is deflecting the responsibility of her actions onto an external force. She is accountable for her actions, no one else - since she isn't being coerced.
Plus, what does that say about free will? What about her (lack of a) conscience?
To top it all off, she is a trained psychiatrist. She's supposed to know right from wrong. She should know to get help if she can't handle (and she clearly can't) her grief.
I don't think expecting people to be self-aware is inconsiderate.
Okay, I know I already stated my theory but kinda curious what everyone thought about this: So I don't remember how the song Harley's father sang went, but from what I remember of it was something like 'falling deep down in the dark' or some such. And I'm also thinking about the fact that when Bruce goes to investigate he ends up seeing that weird elevator which leads into Sanctus.
Do you guys see a connection between the two as well? Or is that I'm just deliriously tired right now and making way to much of something that's nothing?
Cause right now the only flaws I can think of is: I got the song wrong and its way off. And the timeline. I have no idea if the timeline would match.
"Falling in the deep to drown. In the dark to drown" something like that. I have considered the possibility of Harley's father being a SANCTUS scientist, though I never thought to connect the song to it. Harley can say he was a disturbing fella, and their experiments could be described as disturbing.
Might be a hint about whats comeing up, but I guess we will have to wait and
find out abit more in Episode 4.
Re the timeline - it could work. We don't know anything about the origins of Sanctus. It could be an organization that's been around for decades. Mr. Quinzel could have been working for them and progressively gotten worse as a result of the things he participated in.
I think this theory is a bit of a stretch, but still plausible.
Could be the Court Of Owls.
Reason and excuse have always been so similar yet so different in my eyes. An explanation can easily sound like an excuse and an excuse can easily sound like an explanation. But what matters is the accountability. How accountable is Harley of her actions?
Harley has never shifted blame for her actions onto her father. Not once actually. This is what you're led to believe when Gordon brings up her father's suicide and how he feels sorry for her. But not once do we see her put blame on her father for her actions. I say she holds herself very accountable.
In fact, she still seems to hold her father in high regard. She has a soft spot for Bruce because he's like her father, in more ways than one. But Harley's done well to maintain her mask. Even when she's having a one-on-one with Bruce, she's still pretty careful. What's she like when she desperately wears her heart on her sleeve? Will she use the suicide as an excuse then? She might.
She wouldn't have killed if not for her father's suicide is legitimate but that doesn't mean responsibility is being deflected. It's simply a cause and effect situation. Her father committed suicide and because she wasn't able to overcome her regret, she turned to terrorism. Responsibility is distributed. The suicide was the trigger responsible for Harley's breakdown. Harley's failure to find a resolution to her grief is responsible for the crimes she's committing now.
You say she wasn't coerced, but I can argue that she was pressured by her own mind. We don't know her full story we only know the cause and effect. If we got details, it would be easier to say stuff like that, but we don't have those details so we have no way of knowing if she was pressured or not. Let's leave that out of the equation for now.
And free will goes right back to the coerce topic. Free will is blurry to the pressured mind and the bad outweigh the good to a mind surrounded by darkness. Does that mean they're indistinguishable? Nah, it just means that the negative outweigh the positive.
Batman has the option to say to Gordon "She chose to be a criminal", but that's black & white justice. And she's explained that her conscience has almost dwindled down to nothing. That she's stirred up trouble so long that she doesn't even realize it anymore. It's simply become a part of her. The question is, does she really want this to be what defines her? Her behavior makes it seem that way, but I'm not so sure.
She does know right from wrong, but like I said, the bad begins to outweigh the good. It's evident when she talks about Freeze. How he doesn't see right from wrong anymore. Only his blessed Nora. And like I said, we only know the cause and effect. We have no idea if she sought help or not. For all we know, she sought help, but it never worked. For all we know she tried to stay occupied and busy, but the memory remained. For all we know she tried everything she thought would be helpful, but they all failed. Until her story is completely laid out for us, these are only assumptions. At the end of the day, with all these assumptions and comparisons, it's still inconsiderate.
There's a lot to untangle in the post, but I'm going to focus on the most important ones to me.
You say that excuse and reason can be confused for the other... and there may be overlap, but I think this is not really that blurred if you put in the effort to think it through.
It isn't Harley making the excuses, it is Harley's fans.
You contradict yourself when you say
and then say
Are you familiar with "Thirteen Reasons Why?" I find the premise of this extremely troubling. The person choosing to commit suicide, in the case of a teenage girl who feels misunderstood and mistreated by the people in her life, is responsible for the decision - not the people who were mean to her or whatever. You can't distribute blame for your actions onto other people. I reject that premise.
Harley's father is not responsible for her actions. She as a grown woman is solely responsible.
Coercion is normally considered an external force. Bruce is coerced (through threats to of violence by Harley) into getting the phalanx key.
There are many types of people who are born with deficient minds - some people are born with very unhealthy compunctions - people attracted to young children, drug addicts/alcoholics, arsonists. We realize that they have demons they are fighting, but we don't give them a free pass. We don't say to a would-be child molestor it's okay if you slip up every once in a while. No, they have to be vigilant every waking minute of their lives. Alcoholics who become violent when drunk aren't forgiven the abuse they commit when they lose their fight to their addiction. No, they are still responsible for their actions - and for giving in to drink in the first place. If a person (alcoholic or otherwise) drives drunk and causes death through vehicular homicide, we as a society don't place the blame on alcoholism, we blame the person. We don't say things like, "Awwww, she couldn't help herself. We should help her overcome her addiction." No, we make sure that they lose their driver's license and put them in jail.
A pedophile who tries everything but fail is still held accountable for every child they violate.
Did she choose to commit crimes? If yes, she is a criminal. It really is as black and white as that. She's not the Jean Valjean kind criminal either.
Are there times when it is okay to commit a crime? Sure, but not in her case and not the crimes she commits. Not the ones we know of. If you attack a person that is assault; a crime. An aggravated assault (the use of a weapon) is a felony and results in fines and time in prison. Her hitting the security guard was aggravated assault, her threatening Regina was assault (they had reason to believe that she would go through on her actions)... She did this to commit a crime - coercing Bruce into doing something he would not have voluntarily done. That's three crimes right there. And she's killed people.
Does the path of how she got there matter?
Well....you all have compelling points so my final conclusion is...GOOD JOB EVERYONE ?
Thanks! Way to be diplomatic.
The fans will be the fans.
I never contradicted myself cause I never said Mr. Quinzel was responsible. You left out the next line when I said the suicide was the trigger that was responsible for Harley's breakdown and it was. I'm not dropping blame on the dad. In this scenario, the incident is the cause. Not the person.
Lemme give you a real life example. On the news a few months back, a freshman from my old highschool dropped dead on a routine jog around the football field. I play sports so this shook me up a bit and I feared sports for a time after. Still kinda struggle with it. Am I blaming the kid? No. The incident is the cause for me being shaken by sports. The boy was the just the victim of said incident.
I've seen "Thirteen Reasons Why?" And this is part of why I stick to my point. Hannah's suicide affects everyone involved with her. Is she to blame? No, of course not. Is the suicide negatively affecting the people around her? Most definitely. Same concept here. Clay often feels the regret of not saving her and this regret, coupled with his anger at those who mistreated her, has him on the brink of snapping at times.
No one blames the suicide victim, of course not. But the suicide itself is the cause responsible for affecting everyone else.
I'm not giving Harley a free pass at all. I said it myself, in no way is it justifiable. But my statement still stands. Free will is blurred under pressure. And the bad will outweigh the good to those burdened with demons. Does that mean she should get off scot-free? Of course not. Any fan you see giving her a complete free pass is wrong and I'm not trying to argue that. I'm just saying there's more to it than meets the eye.
A criminal is held accountable for the crimes they commit. That's right. Unless they're given an insanity defense, in which case, they go to into psychiatric care. But that was never my point. You said you were tired of personal loss being used as an excuse for her actions and made an example of yourself and your ability to push forward as if it's the same for everyone. My only point was that it's not so respectable in the minds of others. Am I justifying them? No, not at all. But I understand it's not so black & white in their minds as it is in ours.
On the outside, they're criminals, but they suffer on the inside. Does that mean they shouldn't be convicted for their crimes? No. It just means it's unfortunate that things had to go down the way it did for him/her.