What type of Joker is your John?
So, based on everyone's decisions in game, what kind of Joker do you think you'll be getting? The more violent one or the devious one? Maybe a mixture?
Also, what decisions do you think are relevant to this change? From the smallest to the largest.
(Coffee date goes without saying.)
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I would guess he will become violent in the end either way.
So far, John and Bruce relationship is stable.. Bruce is kind to John but does not always listen to what he says all the times.
I believe in episode 4 you will screw up your relationship with John/Joker in one way or another.
I think my john is going to be who solves most of his issues with violence. My Bruce took down willy violently and knocked out bullock. I'm really eager to see how different everyone's joker will play out.
I definitely think the interaction with Willy and Bullock will have an impact. So, in my case, I beat Willy up and paid Bullock off. So I wonder if it's possible that John is a mixture, or if it's more the game will decide based on a percentage. Like if you made more choices that fit a devious Joker vs a violent one.
I also think the elevator incident will count into this, (attempt to help the guard or not) and the end decision of ep3.
My John would probably be an attention seeking psychopath. Essentially, he's my CatWoman in clown make up. The game gets his blood pumping, and he's seen that it does the same for Bruce. It won't be about beating the Batman. It won't be about Revenge. This carnival jigsaw just wants to play a game.
As to what influences that? The obvious ones appear to be ' bribe or beating' ( all occurrences ), the date itself, and something of course will happen to Harley. It would be odd for such a 'promise' to be made on a rooftop and that not occur.
The epic foreshadowing of Harley's demise? I completely agree that something would need to happen to her at this point. I also can't really see John turning against Bruce unless something does. I do wonder if we'll get to pick who John is enemies with. Will it be Bruce or Batman? In the case that he doesn't know. If it turns out that he does, obviously it wouldn't matter. But I think it'd be kind of cool if in one situation he still considers Bruce his friend and hates Batman while in the other he hates Bruce but still admires Batman. I mean, it's a little far-fetched and probably too difficult to have happen but it'd still be pretty cool. I also see that being dependent on who Bruce takes Harley out as.
I’m trying to make my John as nonviolent as possible. Bribed Willy, bribed Bullock, shook John’s hand, let him keep the selfie and told John it was a pleasure to work with him after giving him the batarang. It’s the cafe scene where i told him to be himself that worries me.
Maybe if you told him to be his 'nicest self.' ...Or the 'suppress it' option, but I don't see that one going over too well because its kind of a contradiction. If I remember correctly John is even confused by it.
But the 'be yourself' option was my favorite. I played both and that one was just so funny, disturbing and sweet all at once. I feel like it really out-shined the 'pull her strings.' Both are unique and great but 'be yourself' was just fantastic.
I told him to be his nicest self. But Bruce follows that up with “Until you figure it out” I’m sure John will take that literally.
I'm not sure how far TT would allow us to go, and what can we get in the end.
I hope to get smart, intellegent, non violent and human enough Joker, who I can still consider a friend, but who's dangerous enough and can stand his ground. I aim to teach him at least the basics of morality, because right now he lacks moral compass completly. Funny thing, he is not evil, just like those guinea pigs he is talking about, but, like he said, you can't fight what's in your DNA. And in the codex Bruce is taking a note about John and his cuttrhoat instincts taking the best of him.
So, the only solution I see right now for him to end up as a more stable version of himself, is to give him the basics of human values.
And I don't think keeping him happy will make things better. Like, in the end of the second episode I choosed to follow Bane. At first, I thougth it was a mistake, because John was heartbroken and sad. But when, I gave myself time to think. I watched the other ending on youtube. And, in the end, I stood by my first choice. Because being sad is a human emotion. How often do we see Joker sad, really? Heartbroken? In classic universe he seems hardly capable of such feelings. So, I think it's best for him (if aiming for more human Joker) to feel sadness, than excitment. Excitment wouldn't harden him up, wouldn't prepare him for what is coming, wouldn't teach him how to handle emotions, and wouldn't show him how it feels to lose someone you love.
Comparing two scenes, if you chose to leave Bane, when Freeze speaks about it, John just laughts and tells him to stop being such a crybaby. But if Harley is left behind, turns out it's John who's a crybaby, and it's a harsh, but valuable lesson. I dunno, maybe he would think twice before beating Jason Todd with a crowbar, knowing how it feels to lose someone.
And the same goes for the third episode. Guilt is a very human and complex feeling. And, seriously, how often Joker finds himself feeling it? XD
So, if John is feeling guilt, I would say it's a good thing - if player is aiming for more human Joker.
Besides, seriously, betraying your friend (and, possibly, love interest) to death isn't such a great example. XD What will John learn from this exactly?
I also was not violent around John. I pinky sweared with him, allowed him to keep both photos, gave him a lesson of throwing batarangs and allowed to keep one. In other words, I was open-minded and friendly in every possible situation. But I didn't took his card, at the same time, and told him it was unappropriate, so he could learn.
I told him to be himself. And it's the only thing I'm not sure about. Because my favorite Joker is a calculating, manipulative one, smart and subtile, the one, who's able to get in your head, like Hannibal Lecter. I hope telling him to be himself wouldn't turn him into an impulsive idiot, lol. I doubt this scenario is possible, because he is already smart, but still.
I also do belive it's important to stood up to Harley for him to learn basics of what is acceptable and what is not. The eluvator scene goes two different routes depending on Bruce decision to help the guard, or submit to Harley and press the button. If we choose to help the guard, John looks a bit shocked or at least confused fistly by Bruce having the guts to stood up to Harley, and secondly by Harley brutality towards Bruce, maybe. By the way, choosing to oppose Harley we sabotage her authority in front of John. And earn his respect.
Also, he seems off and a bit disturbed by Harley outburst, if you choose to reject her manipulations, which is good too - opens his eyes a bit, I hope.
I like the whole dynamic between Bruce, Harley and John, lol, they look like a pair of divoricing parents with a kid they're trying to win, haha.
Aw, I forgot, also the scene which occurs if you leave Harley, not Bane, I love her also for John character development. If you leave Bane, he doesn't get such a scene, but if you leave Harley, he's trying to show his spine - which is good too, because he is struggling. He deals with reality, he's not living in a joy bubble. Also, he shows his real concern - which is gold - for Harley. Like, he is hysterical, he doesn't know what to do! But he had to do something. He tries and fails, because nobody listens to him, because he is literally nobody yet. But the development! Damn.
Pure. Gold.
So. I don't expect much. But I certanly expect more than with Harvey Dent, lol, because with Harvey Dent we really did have a little choice, it wasn't great, I'm certain TT did learn from the mistake and will take John somewhere else.
I do belive we can keep him as a friend, but I'm not sure we can keep him from becoming villain. I do want and I can't wait to see him go full Joker, but I want him to be more human. I wonder if he can become an anti-hero, but it's unlikely. Still, it would be cool if he could become some heroic version of the Red Hood. He did ask Batman where he can get the cape, after all, lol. XD
And I certainly don't want him to become a harmless prankster, lol.
Damn. You make a lot of good points. I never even thought about how the Harley vs. Bane thing would come into play. I think your right in that the best solution is to have him feel guilt and sadness if you want a John that's more human vs cruel.
Good points but.. Idk if telltale is willing to go that in depth with it lol
Mayhaps, but from my understanding there are two directions in which John can go. The devious and the ruthless. I think, for there to be any notable difference, one has to appear kinder. So my guess is if you keep John feeling things like guilt and what not he'll turn out devious and won't be as cruel. If you play the game with Bruce acting ruthless, he'll be incredibly violent and not so nice.
I'm basing this off the end decision in ep3 where John either feels guilty or valued. I mean, how does feeling guilty really help him be devious if he's not a nicer version in that scenario?
And if John is supposedly learning from Bruce then he's only noticing that Bruce doesn't mind violence or that he's trying to limit trouble and casualties.
I'm thinking very emotional and violent. I encouraged John to be genuine and Bruce has made violent choices in front of John.
Choices I think could affect John:
I think a couple of things have been forgotten or overlooked in all of this. One is that person pacing inside him, however many layers down. That person most likely is violent, much like the company he keeps. Secondly, he has said that he enjoys it when the situation becomes violent; the way he enjoyed Bats beating up those people or the fight he started by cutting Zsazs. He feels more comfortable with people who operate outsides the bounds of societal norms.
Also important is that John is also attracted to people who are violent. As much as John likes Bruce and influential as Bruce is, don't forget that Harley has been treating him like a pet and molding him to be what she wants for much longer. John also likes it that Harley gets violent and manipulates people. She causes the sort of chaos John enjoys being around and he admires her for it.
Maybe if you play your Bruce nice and tell John to be his nicest self that will temper his violent tendencies for a short while, but I don't think it'll last long. The best I think might happen is that John will consider other methods for getting what he wants, but push comes to shove he'll be ruthless. Ultimately, I think people are overestimating just how much John cares about Bruce or Batman. Our actions as Bruce/Batman are not going to be nearly that meaningful.
Here are all the actions I think could affect John.
So based off of all these choices I think there could potentially be six different Joker "mutations", but I'm not sure if Telltale would really take it that far. But if they do we could end up with:
Brutal + Manipulative + Ethical Joker
Brutal + Ethical Joker
Manipulative + Ethical Joker
Brutal Psychopathic Joker
Manipulative Psychopathic Joker
Brutal + Manipulative + Psychopathic Joker
But if I had to guess I'd say we'll either end up with a Brutal or Manipulative Joker with varying degrees of psychopathy depending on how he was treated, unless Telltale put in way more work than we expect on the "make your own Joker" mechanic.
But to answer OP's question my John is pretty much getting everything he wants right now. I treated him well as Batman and Bruce, although my Bruce was a dick to him during the church meeting. He's been 100% pro John since then, and gave up Catwoman instead of himself. He also treated John well as Batman. I manipulated Willy and told John to be manipulative, so I think I'll end up with a manipulative Joker that still has some traces of humanity.
I'm not sure how my John will turn out. Thinking back on it, I was all over the place with it. I treated him badly at the funeral, but all buddy the rest and wasn't nice as Batman. I beat up Willy but bribed Bullock and I told John to be genuine. ...I guess mine would turn out brutal + manipulative? I hope they put as much into it as your post above suggests, that would be really cool. I think we'll only get two ways though, but I could be wrong.
Inb4 there's only 1 joker
Well I believe that TellTale will allow us to shape John to the Joker we make him. They probably have a system similar to Kenny from The Walking Dead where your actions determined rather he was your friend or not. I hope that John can be our ally in the next season.