Self-Defence or another Joker sob story?:
John claims it was self-defence and later does prove loyal by taking down Harley however there were holes in his initial story. Also before you get to him, he is cycling all different things to say to Bruce. "It wasn't me...well it was me but it was self-defence".."Think,John,think." He said he was swinging with something though there's bullet wounds(in every agent too). Though Waller ain't exactly peaceful and her true colors are somewhat revealed. This is a different universe but Joker is not above using fake sob stories or facade origins of his past. What do you guys think?
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He totally lied
I didn't think there would be people who would think he was telling the truth when I played it, the other options seemed to be there to keep the facade that you're John best buddy buddy and you never doubt him, after all, the way Bruce says them is in a typical way you would say things to calm someone unstable.
John has no problem with lying, remember that the first time you meet him he lies to the doctor in Arkham saying that it was you the one that kicked the ass of the two other Arkham patients.
Dunno. I mean Waller and her agents ain't exactly "above" that and John did take down Harley later so I have a teeny bit of suspicion that maybe it wa self-defence though you're probably right.
Maybe in John's mind it could have been self defense since he claims that place is his personal "safe space" so I guess some strangers getting in made him feel "attacked", but no way they saw him there and tried to kill him as he says. Also, Waller being a b*tch doesn't mean every single member of the agency is bloodthirsty and corrupt.
He did take down Harley later but we don't know why, he could have done that because he thought Harley would get killed and that's his way of saving her, or maybe he plans to free her later, we don't know exactly why he turned on the love of his life.
"Maybe in John's mind it could have been self defense since he claims that place is his personal "safe space" so I guess some strangers getting in made him feel "attacked", Actually that's a great point. To be honest that might be it. He does say "You were uninvited...weren't you?"
John was probably acting in 'self defence' in the sense that they absolutely would have killed him. However, I'm more inclined to believe he killed them violently but then immediately realised that was a bad thing to do. He definitely was lying to Bruce in his original account, but I'm certain they would have killed John if he didn't kill them.
For the most part I believe him. Shooting them in the back seems like a craven thing to do but what Was he gonna do? Wait for her to retrieve the gun and THEN shoot her? There's no room for honor when your life is on the line
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeee, this thread is now stand-alone, so I can pretend I've never seen this discussion before and write the same things all over again!!!! =D
I think it's a situation where we'll never really know the truth. I wouldn't say John's version was unbelievable, as much as he just didn't come across like even he was totally sure of what happened, which in a situation like that you're often unable to think clearly enough to express yourself perfectly. Plus like you said Waller's agents aren't exactly above that. Waller only wanted Quinn for the virus, it's possible she could've gave them orders to shoot John on sight behind Bruce's back, she had no qualms about shooting him on the bridge after all. The guy is clearly showing remorse and is guilt-stricken by the time Bruce arrives. John may be psychotic, but he doesn't become a complete psychopath until your Bruce doesn't believe him.
I agree with MackieMagipie2. As much as it appears to be a black and white situation, there are a few scenarios in which John acted in self defense. If ever there was a question as to how the Agency actually operates when it's not placating Batman, it's during the situation where the Agency is able to apprehend Quinn on the bridge. With two men holding Quinn, Waller orders her men to put her down -- a restrained execution -- and they were going to comply. We neither are present when it occurs, nor do we use any of our detective equipment or honestly skills to access the situation aside from one observation :: at least one agent was shot in the back.
The problem with assuming the situation wasn't shoot first and ask questions later -- my John left the gun in Harley's place at Four Points. There is a blunt object on the ground where the fighting took place. He might've started swinging - like he said - and knocked a gun loose, took cover and shot them all down. There's even a scenario in which it could've been like that when he showed up -- Harley might've killed the Agents. Yes, there was blood on his hands and clothes, but when we find him he's handling a body.
I'm sorry but how do those sentences prove he lied?
Because he's planning what to say and considering different options? He even considers to lie saying "it was like this when I arrived"
Well, those sentences are suggesting, that John made up this story on the spot.
Yes, he is "considering".) That's why he didn't say "it was like this when I arrived", he considered it. Because situation looks bad for him and he isn't sure Bruce will trust him.
and the line "I mean it was me, but it was self-defense" doesn't sound like "aw, I think I'll tell Bruce that, what a good excuse!" it sound like "Wait, it was self-defence, right??????"
That's not the whole monologue he is saying, the begining is about his own trust issues. The reason he doubts if Bruce will even listen to him. =D
Those sentences doesn't prove he lied. They prove he's panicking and doesn't trust Bruce enough. He wasn't angry because Bruce didn't trust his version, he was angry because Bruce didn't trust him, which proves his suspision Bruce doesn't care enough.=D Because friends trust each other. That's the reason I was exstremly pissed off by Gordon and his refuse to trust Batman about Bruce.
Myfeelingarehurt:(
No-no-no, you don't do that to me, how would I live with that now?! Here, have a feelings bandage.
As they should be
It's like Doctor Leland always said
https://gyazo.com/265ca972aa685e5cc294cbe659ad49bf
Feeling bandages are a JOKE!
YOU'RE JUST GIVING ME WHAT YOU THINK I WANT TO HEAR. THE GOODWILL ONLY FLOWS ONE WAY AND IT ISN'T TOWARDS ME.
Oh no! I screwed up my waltktrough in this thread, didn't I? What have I done! What had I created?!
No, Dan10, listen, you're imagining things!
Rekt
OH REALLY? LOOPY OL DAN'S HEARING THE VOICES AGAIN.
Tiefling is right that those sentences don't prove that he murdered those people in cold blood. What they do is shed light into John's own mental processes. John and Bruce are at the same cross road here. Is what's between them real, imagined, or merely a matter of convenience until it's not?
More or less, it's like trying to access the facts as a jury. Is it all circumstantial? At no point do we determine the murder weapon. As I said, it could've gone more or less as he said, the Agents could've been shot by one of their own guns if he disarmed them. Or he could've stashed a gun. We don't know.
We don't know who started shooting first, or even how many shots were fired. There were no shots fired when we arrived. Whatever happened, had already happened. We know that Harley was just there as John said we just missed her, and we know he killed them. He says as much, but under what circumstances ---- it's all speculative.
Under the weight of reasonable doubt, could it have been self-defense?
YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED EVERYTHING....INSTEAD YOU MADE ME INTO THIS.
YES YOU ARE TAKE YOUR MEDS ALREADY, WHY SHOULD I ALWAYS REMIND YOU OF THAT?!
ur character is in jail while mine is in spotlight.
shrekt.
Also I blow up the bridge and escape.
Oopsie!
Should hunt you down now, I guess. =/
Yes but Bruce never called you beautiful and never brought you flowers, instead, he sucked your girl's slushie!!!
Doctors.Drugs. The talking cure. I'M NOT GOING BACK TO ARKHAM.
Yeeeeesh, that was harsh! low blow here, reeeeeeeeeally loooow!
Oh you WILL take the talking cure, you totally will!
BRUCE...HE...PINKY-SWEARED ME. I TOLD HIM I WAS IN LOVE...HE DIDN'T DO IT ON PURPOSE. HE BELIEVES ME UNLIKE YOU. ME AND BATMAN WILL CLEAN UP THE STREETS THAT YOU INFESTED.
WILL-y? THANKS FOR SENDING HIM THE BOTTLE.
What about forums? are we safe here?
HAHA THAT'S RICH COMING FROM YOU. YOUR GIRL SELINA SUCKED BRUCE;S SLUSHIE HAHA AND CHEATED ON YOU WHEN YOU WERE FIRENDS HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
Batman and I will put you all to justice. Even in the forums.
Willy doesn't love you anymore! He's with Frank now!!! You should've payed him attention he desereved when you had the chance!
TOO SOON DUDE, TOO SOON!
You think I loved Willy? My batman is where it's at.