If he killed Waller then this thread won't even exist even if the episode itself was garbage. I got no enjoyment or satisfaction. My mood has been dead for two days now
The first third was exactly what I wanted. Joker and Batman fighting together. Stopping bane. Meting up with Alfred. A struggle to teach Jok… moreer how to be a hero. Right up to the bombs. The next third is pretty weak, only being saved if you have Vigilante Tiffany (who never has a code name). ‘Tis truly lame.
Then we get to ace chemicals, that third other than Vigilante Tiffany ending was functional good but not what the whole marketing for this side lead you to believe. No matter what you do he won’t get over he’s hattered of Waller, then Tiffany says something( which is bad even if she a Vigilante) and that pushes him over the edge.
You made the choice to trust him and inspire him to be a Vigilante but while the ending is tragic for the player, it feels like it completely robs me of choice so he’ll still end up in Arkham, which would be fine if anything I said or did would stop him from killing those agents and just wanting to kill Tiffa… [view original content]
Both episodes pacing was fine really, the only real issue with the pacing is that the episode ends kinda suddenly, other than that pacing was far from an issue in both versions. The villain switch was obvious from the start, and what you're saying isn't accurate. Ep 4's rush to put John in the position on the bridge was rushing to make him Joker, Ep 5 vigilante Joker handles John becoming the bad guy much better. We see that he is not a good guy but thinks he is doing good, and that's basically the theme of Vigilante Joker episode. He wants to be a hero like Batman, but he goes too far because he murders people and is insane. If you didnt realize all the way up to the roof scene, John is on our side, he still stays on our side if you dont agree to turn him over, but he disagrees with Batman's actions because he believes that Waller should suffer and die. All the way up to the chemical plant Joker is still on our side and wants Batman as his friend still, this doesnt change until the very end right before he is about to be arrested. So I wouldn't say he becomes a villain "too fast" it felt a lot more natural with his decline into true villainy.
Not super sure what your issue is with Waller. Obviously you didnt like her and neither did I, all I wanted was her to leave Gotham, and thats what happens. It didnt seem likely she was going to die, and even then, just because a character doesnt die, doesnt mean the episode is bad. I mean you can do that with anyone, its like going "Selina didnt die, shit episode" or "Gordon didnt die, shit episode" even if story wise it doesnt make sense if they die.
There may not be "giant" choices but considering the whole episode is different I think that probably should count for something. There was still choices like letting Tiffany come with you or not too, as well as choices that you may not think happened in Vigilante version, like asking Avesta to work for you or getting Catwoman free'd or not. Overall there may not be as many choices you are making in the episode, but theres tons of differences based on past choices in other episodes.
For not being able to do what you want to do, cant really help there. Seems like what you wanted was for Waller to die and for Vigilante John to be like Batman's side kick or something, and not become a different type of villian. I mean Vigilante Joker and Villain Joker are very VERY noticeably different through the entire episode, even after the rooftop scene in Vigilant version.
It's not even about the ending.
I hated everything following the first 20 minutes.
Waller
Pacing
Villian switcharoo
Waller not getting … moreuppercutted to death then shred by blades.
Barely any choices
Getting forced to what I don't want to do.
I expected the bare minimum and got nothing. It's not like I'm looking for a reason to hate. I was shedding tears from the utter disappointment.
Justifiable, threatening to kill the pack, holding Tiffany at gun point or if she was about to reveal Batman identity to the world. That kind of justified, having no other option.
Not exactly. I knew Waller wouldnt die but I expected some firm of commupance at least. I didnt hate the epsiode because of Waller. All i expected was a partnerhsup for at least two thirds of the epidode and the Agency taken down. I got 0 enjoyment out of the episode and what do you expect me to say? The pacing was an issue for me. Maybe it was me flipping out.If you think here wasn't an issue, I'm glad you got enjoyment out of the episode but for me I feel physically and mentally sick. Cheers
Both episodes pacing was fine really, the only real issue with the pacing is that the episode ends kinda suddenly, other than that pacing wa… mores far from an issue in both versions. The villain switch was obvious from the start, and what you're saying isn't accurate. Ep 4's rush to put John in the position on the bridge was rushing to make him Joker, Ep 5 vigilante Joker handles John becoming the bad guy much better. We see that he is not a good guy but thinks he is doing good, and that's basically the theme of Vigilante Joker episode. He wants to be a hero like Batman, but he goes too far because he murders people and is insane. If you didnt realize all the way up to the roof scene, John is on our side, he still stays on our side if you dont agree to turn him over, but he disagrees with Batman's actions because he believes that Waller should suffer and die. All the way up to the chemical plant Joker is still on our side and wants Batman as his f… [view original content]
Past choices huh? I spent my entire play through not using violence (bribing bullocks and silly etc) and John still says Violence solves a lot of problems. Make of that what you will. Though Tiffany was in the Agency for me and surprisingly had a decent role
Both episodes pacing was fine really, the only real issue with the pacing is that the episode ends kinda suddenly, other than that pacing wa… mores far from an issue in both versions. The villain switch was obvious from the start, and what you're saying isn't accurate. Ep 4's rush to put John in the position on the bridge was rushing to make him Joker, Ep 5 vigilante Joker handles John becoming the bad guy much better. We see that he is not a good guy but thinks he is doing good, and that's basically the theme of Vigilante Joker episode. He wants to be a hero like Batman, but he goes too far because he murders people and is insane. If you didnt realize all the way up to the roof scene, John is on our side, he still stays on our side if you dont agree to turn him over, but he disagrees with Batman's actions because he believes that Waller should suffer and die. All the way up to the chemical plant Joker is still on our side and wants Batman as his f… [view original content]
Maybe, but like Waller trying to shot John I didn’t want that. I wasn’t just going to let her go scot free forever, I just wanted some time to take her down and to keep John safe. I was going to do what he wanted but I needed time, the rooftop of GCPD wasn’t the time or place but there’s a time and a place. That’s while it feels forced to me, his hatered for Waller left him with no patience or trust with me. And her Telling Bane he killed Riddler just made it worse.
Also like someone else said Joker's breakdown didn't just come out of nowhere, it was a culmination of him realizing his hero, Batman/Bruce … morewas flawed and that justice wasn't perfect. He ends episode 4 laughing and saying him and Batman are going to bring The Agency to justice. But in the next episode he begins to see his ideal of justice isn't what he thought it was. It's not 100% perfect, and Batman is willing to compromise, or criticize John's methods. Like if you tell him he went too far with the agents, he gets pissed off and says he was just doing what you do, which is technically true, there have been moments where Batman's beat the shit out of people, even if you didn't play a brutal Batman. But really it's the rooftop on GDCP that sends Joker overboard.
That's where he views firsthand Batman's hypocrisy. Instead of bringing Waller to justice, Batman is willing to compromise and force a stalemate. That's where Vigilante John begins… [view original content]
Happened way too quickly and was painted as the villain barely before the middle of the episode. I'm sorry but the way it was handled along … morewith everything else still has me mad. I hated Batman in this. I despised Waller. Despised Tiffany. Ending too. Pacing. Everything just sucked.Everything in this pathway made me want to die because of the fustration.
Past choices huh? I spent my entire play through not using violence (bribing bullocks and silly etc) and John still says Violence solves a l… moreot of problems. Make of that what you will. Though Tiffany was in the Agency for me and surprisingly had a decent role
Well thats the whole thing, we literally can not send Waller to jail because she will tell everyone we are Batman. Just because you wanted her to be sent to jail and all that, the story cant do that because like I said, then she reveals we are Batman. That was basically what the entire talk on the roof was about. We come to a stalemate, Waller leaves Gotham and doesnt reveal our identity, we dont leak Waller's criminal activities. Nothing else was going to happen from there.
Partner thing again, if you dont tell Waller you plan on turning John in, he still calls you his partner and friend until he is about to be arrested and the final battle starts. The problem is that we reached a collision with John, with John going to far hurting and killing people, which is why we had to turn him in/stop him at the Chem plant. To John, he and Batman were still partners when Batman walked in the door. I know you wanted to see it more on screen, but it wouldnt have worked, you are already claiming there are pacing issues, but there would actually be pacing issues if after the ally scene where they go in the Batmobile and then go to the GCPD rooftop for John to cause havoc and run away, if there was just more Batman and John working together scenes. Can you even tell me what they should or could have done between these parts for them to work together longer, while keeping it relevant to the overall story and not being needlessly put in, causing pacing issues?
Not exactly. I knew Waller wouldnt die but I expected some firm of commupance at least. I didnt hate the epsiode because of Waller. All i ex… morepected was a partnerhsup for at least two thirds of the epidode and the Agency taken down. I got 0 enjoyment out of the episode and what do you expect me to say? The pacing was an issue for me. Maybe it was me flipping out.If you think here wasn't an issue, I'm glad you got enjoyment out of the episode but for me I feel physically and mentally sick. Cheers
Sorry to hear your so upset, but given that I can’t tell tone based on text I’ll just clarify, when I said justified I’m meant Waller holding Tiffany at gun point or Waller trying to kill the squad. Kill to save others.
If he killed Waller then this thread won't even exist even if the episode itself was garbage. I got no enjoyment or satisfaction. My mood has been dead for two days now
I understand your frustration...
But I think it's because you had very high expectations for the episode, that whatever headcanon and how… more much hype you had for it, it ended up not being what you imagined. I admit from on tumblr's tag, I was a little hyped from everyone's theories and expectations, but I sort of knew that it probably wasn't going to end happy. I was even hoping for a little Harley/Joker confrontation, but there wasn't much. ;; LOL
But Joker has trouble controlling his impulses, which is why he lashed out so much and got angry at Batman for not doing what he thought Batman should do.
I believe if he does get some actual help in the asylum, he might be able to learn how to control himself, and be able to be the hero like he wanted to be. But right now he's just too unstable.
I'm glad though that in the end; he seem to have regret what he had done(?), if you said you were his friend, at least in my ending, and Bruce … [view original content]
I don’t know what ending you got, when my Bruce went to see him hew was ecstatic. Plus I think the real problem was his hatred of Waller and the 2 weeks he was being chased down. I still think he could be a great hero, given that his grudge with Waller is kinda over after venting and trying to kill her, and if he gets a bit better at controlling his impulses with guns and explosives and is with me from the very start.
I hope John gets another chance to be a hero towards episode 4 or 5 next season and that in the whole seasons you get visit him in Arkham while he’s there, or if he gets another chance then just for the episodes leading up to it.
Look this is coming from someone who loved John and wanted to really show the world he can change for the better, and I loved the vigilante … moreside. I thought the first half of working with "Joker" was excellent but also knew that the John I wanted just wasn't in the cards after the first encounter with his new persona. He was rash, violent, and wanted people to suffer. The John I had hopes for wasn't there from the beginning. He was a lost cause, and yet I still wanted to try. I wanted to try so hard. I ruined relationships with allies and former allies just so I can help John become what I and (how I hoped) he wanted to be. That was a mistake from the beginning but that relationship I don't regret.
John's a broken piece to a puzzle that won't fit. No matter how hard you want it to fit and complete the picture it won't; not even mended with tape, it'll just fall apart or won't look how it should. Seeing this John fall farther and farther apa… [view original content]
I agree. I loved the episode up until the climax. This season was so damn brilliant, and TellTale just finds a way to always let you down somehow. I think there should have been multiple endings, and I don't mean that whole "Joker's reaction post-credits" nonsense! Joker should NOT be the main villain next season, so having an option to have him as an enemy or an ally should have been there. Sure, the predictable thing to expect from TellTale is that in the end your choices don't truly matter - we get that trope by now. However this season was so damn good that it made me have faith again, made me feel excited for the next episode. You know how long it's been since I felt that way about these episodic games? YEARS. It's like someone interrupted the brilliant writers and forced them to end the episode asap in the way it's expected. Don't get me wrong, the writing is still top notch, but it felt so damn rushed toward the end and forced as if it was against the writers' choice. I felt heartbroken about the falling out with vigilante Joker, but at the same time I didn't believe in it. I understood the frustration of the character's struggle to adjust, but throughout the season they showed his good side was not an act.
Personally, I wouldn't have mind waiting an extra month or two for them to add another ending that can be on par with the other endings - one where Joker stays a hero or anti-hero instead of flipping shit and becoming a psychotic killer. I don't know what happened, I feel so damn disappointed! The dialogue choices toward the end were just terrible, especially during the scene with Alfred. Plus, what the fuck? Alfred's supposed to be family, see you as family, and you mean to tell me that he's just going to walk out without any warning? That's fucked up. At least in TDKR when Alfred left Bruce, he tried pleading with him, and had years of seeing him crippled - it made sense in that movie. You just come home, Alfred's got a suitcase packed, a hat, and he's drinking then walks the fuck out like a deadbeat father! Man, what the fuck happened? This episode started out so damn good! It's not so much that Joker became bad anyway, it's the fact that he went from 0 - 100 in seconds. The pacing and reasons made no sense, it was rushed, and compared to everything beforehand - it felt like someone cut a huge chunk of story out. I'm not going to lie, my feelings are fucking hurt, but it was still a good episode ... just a disappointing ending.
Well thats the whole thing, we literally can not send Waller to jail because she will tell everyone we are Batman. Just because you wanted h… moreer to be sent to jail and all that, the story cant do that because like I said, then she reveals we are Batman. That was basically what the entire talk on the roof was about. We come to a stalemate, Waller leaves Gotham and doesnt reveal our identity, we dont leak Waller's criminal activities. Nothing else was going to happen from there.
Partner thing again, if you dont tell Waller you plan on turning John in, he still calls you his partner and friend until he is about to be arrested and the final battle starts. The problem is that we reached a collision with John, with John going to far hurting and killing people, which is why we had to turn him in/stop him at the Chem plant. To John, he and Batman were still partners when Batman walked in the door. I know you wanted to see it more on screen, but it w… [view original content]
I was hoping that John would have mentioned something other than the violence solves things comment since I used nothing but money to get myself out of situations. I was fine otherwise.
Basically it's all about pacing and not enough time to deliver a point - why vigilante is so frustrating in some aspects.
I digested an episode a little. I think I got what they wanted to say with Joker turning against Batman in vigilante. He even explained why. It was just a little lost in everything else.
It's not about justice or Batman or even Waller, it's more about John himself - he just started losing himself, trying to pretend he was Batman. losing yourself is scary, it's like a death. By nature (or chemical bath) John is set on path of being a villain. Basically, playing "hero" he goes against his nature. Batman not playing along and world being too grey, and him failing as a hero just made him snap and realize he not only didn't succeed, but also was about to lose himself forever. And building a grudge against Bruce for using him, John, of course, got angry at Batman. That and Batman being not as perfect as John believed. The moment Batman had to compromise with Waller John's respect for him suffered a lot of damage.
It's just very difficult to develop characters in such a short time.
And Waller - there were not a lot of options here, it's either murdering her, or blackmailing. No jail.
Murder is a no on Batman list, no matter what we want.
Besides, depsite everything, she's not evil. She's corrupt, she's not a nice person, but she's not a rabid dog to shoot. She deserves demotion and a jail, imo, because this whole situation from the begining is her doing. She's the one to blame.
And in the fairytale version, maybe, we could have bring her to justice. Unfortunatly, this aint' a fairytale.
But even for Batman version, I think, vigilante route offers a lot of possibilities.
And the ending is somewhat happy. Again, it's not a fairytale ending, but
a)waller's ass out of town
b)you're friends with John
c)John recieves help in Arkham
d)Bruce visits John in Arkham, John happy, John doesn't look deranged.
The ending is open.
Same here man. I had faith like the good old days. I thought they changed.
Alfred pissed me off as well. First of all if you disagree with the plan to manipulate John, he assures you to double-cross him to get into the PAct. He complains about Viillian Joker and Viglinate Joker. WHAT WAS THE CORRECT CIRCUMSTANCE THEN?Alfred says he let Bruce down then proceeds to leave. Not even gonna try fixing your actions?Didn't even complain about it before. I think it should have been a long vacation at least which would make some sort of sense instead of" I'm gone, deal with it"
I agree. I loved the episode up until the climax. This season was so damn brilliant, and TellTale just finds a way to always let you down so… moremehow. I think there should have been multiple endings, and I don't mean that whole "Joker's reaction post-credits" nonsense! Joker should NOT be the main villain next season, so having an option to have him as an enemy or an ally should have been there. Sure, the predictable thing to expect from TellTale is that in the end your choices don't truly matter - we get that trope by now. However this season was so damn good that it made me have faith again, made me feel excited for the next episode. You know how long it's been since I felt that way about these episodic games? YEARS. It's like someone interrupted the brilliant writers and forced them to end the episode asap in the way it's expected. Don't get me wrong, the writing is still top notch, but it felt so damn rushed toward the end and forced as if it… [view original content]
For anyone trying to convince me that 'm wrong. Don't bother. I found no consolation and had negative enjoyment. I'm surprised I was able to finish it.
Well, they could've just gave us an option to convince John not to slit Waller's throat and make it hard to achieve.
The problem here is with players having no control over events. No matter what you do, you can't stop the train.
You're actually kidding me if you think all they could have done was have him fight Bane for a few minutes and talk with Alfred in an alley. You're actually kidding me. What if we took him to the Batcave? Planning to attack the Agency? Give him some gadgets? ActualProfessional writers should have a field day with this.
for me, hearing them say it was their "branchiest" episode made me think about how maybe they would start letting us make choices that would actually alter the story and players would have different world states and not some slight dialogue changes, part of me knew that would be hoping too much but i got caught up in the hype so i guess that's on me.
for me, hearing them say it was their "branchiest" episode made me think about how maybe they would start letting us make choices that would… more actually alter the story and players would have different world states and not some slight dialogue changes, part of me knew that would be hoping too much but i got caught up in the hype so i guess that's on me.
That isnt part of their partnership. I will agree it would have been interesting if John could determinatly kill Waller, but I was talking about what else would Telltale do during that time between the ally scene and the GCPD roof scene for the partnership to last longer.
Well, they could've just gave us an option to convince John not to slit Waller's throat and make it hard to achieve.
The problem here is with players having no control over events. No matter what you do, you can't stop the train.
Well no Im not kidding, again I said what could they have done to further the story, while maintain the partnership, without creating pacing issues along with making sure the scenes are still important to the story.
What if we take John to the Batcave. Ok, now what? Why is he in the Batcave what are we doing there? Why are we attacking the Agency exactly? John wants to attack the Agency, we dont, the only reason the Agency doesnt like us is because we helped John and wants us to turn him in, and even if we did Waller would just reveal our identity, so that isnt even an option realistically. Joker already had plenty of gadgets, wouldnt need another scene where we give him even more.
Really there isnt much else to do here if you have Vigilante Joker, its just how the outcome would have happened, pretty sure there isnt really anyway to make it work "the way you wanted" even if you completely rewrote episode 5. For what the past episodes had done and lead up to, this is really the only direction it could have went.
You're actually kidding me if you think all they could have done was have him fight Bane for a few minutes and talk with Alfred in an alley.… more You're actually kidding me. What if we took him to the Batcave? Planning to attack the Agency? Give him some gadgets? ActualProfessional writers should have a field day with this.
Well no Im not kidding, again I said what could they have done to further the story, while maintain the partnership, without creating pacing… more issues along with making sure the scenes are still important to the story.
What if we take John to the Batcave. Ok, now what? Why is he in the Batcave what are we doing there? Why are we attacking the Agency exactly? John wants to attack the Agency, we dont, the only reason the Agency doesnt like us is because we helped John and wants us to turn him in, and even if we did Waller would just reveal our identity, so that isnt even an option realistically. Joker already had plenty of gadgets, wouldnt need another scene where we give him even more.
Really there isnt much else to do here if you have Vigilante Joker, its just how the outcome would have happened, pretty sure there isnt really anyway to make it work "the way you wanted" even if you completely rewrote episode 5. For what the past episodes had done and lead up to, this is really the only direction it could have went.
@Poogers555
You expect me to write a script? How is there "nothing to do"? Is fighting Bane for a few minutes and talking in an alleyway which lasted about 20-30 minutes good enough for all the hype and advertisement we got fed? And please don't say "Oh technically they were different"
Um again, they only attacked us due to us helping John, if we didnt help John they wouldnt attack, and again we just cant attack the Agency even if it made any sense story wise because Batman wouldnt attack the Agency in general, and even if for some reason he would, again Waller would just leak out that Batman is Bruce Wayne due to him attacking the Agency.
Like what are we going to do to the Agency exactly when we attack them? Its not like Batman kills, whats he gonna do just go beat them up and tell them to "cut it out!" and then real mean tell Waller to "STOP IT!!!!" The actual Agency isnt corrupt either, Waller is, so why attack the agents for Waller's crimes exactly? Plus John would obviously just kill the agents if they attacked, and Batman obviously isnt going to allow that. Attacking the Agency would make 0 sense in the story.
Um again, they only attacked us due to us helping John, if we didnt help John they wouldnt attack, and again we just cant attack the Agency … moreeven if it made any sense story wise because Batman wouldnt attack the Agency in general, and even if for some reason he would, again Waller would just leak out that Batman is Bruce Wayne due to him attacking the Agency.
Like what are we going to do to the Agency exactly when we attack them? Its not like Batman kills, whats he gonna do just go beat them up and tell them to "cut it out!" and then real mean tell Waller to "STOP IT!!!!" The actual Agency isnt corrupt either, Waller is, so why attack the agents for Waller's crimes exactly? Plus John would obviously just kill the agents if they attacked, and Batman obviously isnt going to allow that. Attacking the Agency would make 0 sense in the story.
Nope, was simply saying that for episode 5 to work out the way you wanted the entire season would have had to be different, what you were expecting was just unrealistic for what this story was. I dont recall Telltale every saying that Vigilante Joker = Partners, just because John wanted to be partners doesnt mean the whole episode is going to be about them being partners. I mean even the Vigilante Trailer shows that it was pretty obvious the main focus of the episode was going to be the power struggle between Joker and Batman. Both episodes arnt technically different, because they are different. I think you just set yourself up for an unrealistic idea of where the plot would go and are now disappointed by it. This is no where close to Telltale lying to players at all, ANF's hype was lying to players, this is not.
@Poogers555
You expect me to write a script? How is there "nothing to do"? Is fighting Bane for a few minutes and talking in an alleyway w… morehich lasted about 20-30 minutes good enough for all the hype and advertisement we got fed? And please don't say "Oh technically they were different"
Um again, they only attacked us due to us helping John, if we didnt help John they wouldnt attack, and again we just cant attack the Agency … moreeven if it made any sense story wise because Batman wouldnt attack the Agency in general, and even if for some reason he would, again Waller would just leak out that Batman is Bruce Wayne due to him attacking the Agency.
Like what are we going to do to the Agency exactly when we attack them? Its not like Batman kills, whats he gonna do just go beat them up and tell them to "cut it out!" and then real mean tell Waller to "STOP IT!!!!" The actual Agency isnt corrupt either, Waller is, so why attack the agents for Waller's crimes exactly? Plus John would obviously just kill the agents if they attacked, and Batman obviously isnt going to allow that. Attacking the Agency would make 0 sense in the story.
Thats literally my point, Waller didnt want us to interfere, thus why we were enemies to the Agency. Im talking about the Agency attacking us in episode 5.
I literally discussed this. Loopholing around the truth is disgusting. Telltale gave us the idea.What do screenshots of Jokerangs and back to back with Bat man and typing suicide squad as the main villian? Don't use that it they never said specifically that. I discussed this a while ago really bro?
Nope, was simply saying that for episode 5 to work out the way you wanted the entire season would have had to be different, what you were ex… morepecting was just unrealistic for what this story was. I dont recall Telltale every saying that Vigilante Joker = Partners, just because John wanted to be partners doesnt mean the whole episode is going to be about them being partners. I mean even the Vigilante Trailer shows that it was pretty obvious the main focus of the episode was going to be the power struggle between Joker and Batman. Both episodes arnt technically different, because they are different. I think you just set yourself up for an unrealistic idea of where the plot would go and are now disappointed by it. This is no where close to Telltale lying to players at all, ANF's hype was lying to players, this is not.
Yeah, sorry, didn't answer your actual question.
I guess, I meant we already DID have partnership, and they could have ended it with us using our influence to convince John to let Waller go.
In my eyes, the "fairytale" scenario would be good enough if we could have make John let Waller go, and when just allow him go, much like Selina. So he's out of the picture, but free. And no fight between him and Batman occurs depending on player's choices.
I actually wasnt' talking about allowing him to kill Waller, but that's an interesting outcome too, now, when you're mentioned it. Strange we weren't given an option. Batman doesn't kill, yes, but we did a lot of questionable stuff in this season, so it actually would make sense.
And about
what else would Telltale do during that time between the ally scene and the GCPD roof scene for the partnership to last longer.
Actually, I was thinking about blackmailing Waller before. And I thought, what maybe, we had to work with vigilante to recieve blackmail material. But instead we just called Avesta. Which is pretty disappointing - everything is so easy.
I was sure we had to infiltrate Agency, find the data - but no. Just a call.
That isnt part of their partnership. I will agree it would have been interesting if John could determinatly kill Waller, but I was talking a… morebout what else would Telltale do during that time between the ally scene and the GCPD roof scene for the partnership to last longer.
Thats literally my point, Waller didnt want us to interfere, thus why we were enemies to the Agency. Im talking about the Agency attacking us in episode 5.
I could ask you why you are so fixated on the idea the scenario given wasnt the one that made sense for the overall story? Im sorry but all the examples youve given just would not work in anyway for the story to keep the same themes, pacing, and overall plot. You cant just say "OH THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS!!!" but not give any back up to why they should have done that, or why it would have worked. Just because something could make a "cool" scene, it wont matter if in the overall story it would make 0 sense to happen, for example, us attacking the Agency.
OH MY GOD STOP SAYING I WANTED A SPECIFIC SCRNARIO. I expected a partnership for longer than 20 minutes. I don't care what they especially said. They knew what they were insinuating. Might have made sense for you but it didn't for me. Why can't you accept the fact that this pathway was intolerable for Me? It's not because I'm a Joker fanboy that WANTED the exact scenario to occur.
I could ask you why you are so fixated on the idea the scenario given wasnt the one that made sense for the overall story? Im sorry but all … morethe examples youve given just would not work in anyway for the story to keep the same themes, pacing, and overall plot. You cant just say "OH THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS!!!" but not give any back up to why they should have done that, or why it would have worked. Just because something could make a "cool" scene, it wont matter if in the overall story it would make 0 sense to happen, for example, us attacking the Agency.
So one screenshot = whole episode is us working with Joker. Trailer also showed there was going to be a power struggle with Batman and Joker, and Waller is another "antagonist" in the vigilante version. Most people who watched that trailer pretty easily could figure out the plot was going to go us working with John even if we dont think its the best idea, fight Waller and her squad, until we have a falling out with John leading him to be the final climax. They didnt show Joker kidnapping Waller because that would be too many spoilers.
I literally discussed this. Loopholing around the truth is disgusting. Telltale gave us the idea.What do screenshots of Jokerangs and back t… moreo back with Bat man and typing suicide squad as the main villian? Don't use that it they never said specifically that. I discussed this a while ago really bro?
So one screenshot = whole episode is us working with Joker. Trailer also showed there was going to be a power struggle with Batman and Joker… more, and Waller is another "antagonist" in the vigilante version. Most people who watched that trailer pretty easily could figure out the plot was going to go us working with John even if we dont think its the best idea, fight Waller and her squad, until we have a falling out with John leading him to be the final climax. They didnt show Joker kidnapping Waller because that would be too many spoilers.
Comments
If he killed Waller then this thread won't even exist even if the episode itself was garbage. I got no enjoyment or satisfaction. My mood has been dead for two days now
Both episodes pacing was fine really, the only real issue with the pacing is that the episode ends kinda suddenly, other than that pacing was far from an issue in both versions. The villain switch was obvious from the start, and what you're saying isn't accurate. Ep 4's rush to put John in the position on the bridge was rushing to make him Joker, Ep 5 vigilante Joker handles John becoming the bad guy much better. We see that he is not a good guy but thinks he is doing good, and that's basically the theme of Vigilante Joker episode. He wants to be a hero like Batman, but he goes too far because he murders people and is insane. If you didnt realize all the way up to the roof scene, John is on our side, he still stays on our side if you dont agree to turn him over, but he disagrees with Batman's actions because he believes that Waller should suffer and die. All the way up to the chemical plant Joker is still on our side and wants Batman as his friend still, this doesnt change until the very end right before he is about to be arrested. So I wouldn't say he becomes a villain "too fast" it felt a lot more natural with his decline into true villainy.
Not super sure what your issue is with Waller. Obviously you didnt like her and neither did I, all I wanted was her to leave Gotham, and thats what happens. It didnt seem likely she was going to die, and even then, just because a character doesnt die, doesnt mean the episode is bad. I mean you can do that with anyone, its like going "Selina didnt die, shit episode" or "Gordon didnt die, shit episode" even if story wise it doesnt make sense if they die.
There may not be "giant" choices but considering the whole episode is different I think that probably should count for something. There was still choices like letting Tiffany come with you or not too, as well as choices that you may not think happened in Vigilante version, like asking Avesta to work for you or getting Catwoman free'd or not. Overall there may not be as many choices you are making in the episode, but theres tons of differences based on past choices in other episodes.
For not being able to do what you want to do, cant really help there. Seems like what you wanted was for Waller to die and for Vigilante John to be like Batman's side kick or something, and not become a different type of villian. I mean Vigilante Joker and Villain Joker are very VERY noticeably different through the entire episode, even after the rooftop scene in Vigilant version.
Justifiable, threatening to kill the pack, holding Tiffany at gun point or if she was about to reveal Batman identity to the world. That kind of justified, having no other option.
Not exactly. I knew Waller wouldnt die but I expected some firm of commupance at least. I didnt hate the epsiode because of Waller. All i expected was a partnerhsup for at least two thirds of the epidode and the Agency taken down. I got 0 enjoyment out of the episode and what do you expect me to say? The pacing was an issue for me. Maybe it was me flipping out.If you think here wasn't an issue, I'm glad you got enjoyment out of the episode but for me I feel physically and mentally sick. Cheers
Past choices huh? I spent my entire play through not using violence (bribing bullocks and silly etc) and John still says Violence solves a lot of problems. Make of that what you will. Though Tiffany was in the Agency for me and surprisingly had a decent role
Maybe, but like Waller trying to shot John I didn’t want that. I wasn’t just going to let her go scot free forever, I just wanted some time to take her down and to keep John safe. I was going to do what he wanted but I needed time, the rooftop of GCPD wasn’t the time or place but there’s a time and a place. That’s while it feels forced to me, his hatered for Waller left him with no patience or trust with me. And her Telling Bane he killed Riddler just made it worse.
While I liked Tiffany And Batman based on my choices, I feel extremely frustrated with the direction they went with Vigilante Joker.
Yeah, frustrating (about violence)
Well thats the whole thing, we literally can not send Waller to jail because she will tell everyone we are Batman. Just because you wanted her to be sent to jail and all that, the story cant do that because like I said, then she reveals we are Batman. That was basically what the entire talk on the roof was about. We come to a stalemate, Waller leaves Gotham and doesnt reveal our identity, we dont leak Waller's criminal activities. Nothing else was going to happen from there.
Partner thing again, if you dont tell Waller you plan on turning John in, he still calls you his partner and friend until he is about to be arrested and the final battle starts. The problem is that we reached a collision with John, with John going to far hurting and killing people, which is why we had to turn him in/stop him at the Chem plant. To John, he and Batman were still partners when Batman walked in the door. I know you wanted to see it more on screen, but it wouldnt have worked, you are already claiming there are pacing issues, but there would actually be pacing issues if after the ally scene where they go in the Batmobile and then go to the GCPD rooftop for John to cause havoc and run away, if there was just more Batman and John working together scenes. Can you even tell me what they should or could have done between these parts for them to work together longer, while keeping it relevant to the overall story and not being needlessly put in, causing pacing issues?
Sorry to hear your so upset, but given that I can’t tell tone based on text I’ll just clarify, when I said justified I’m meant Waller holding Tiffany at gun point or Waller trying to kill the squad. Kill to save others.
That’s the impressions i got too.
I don’t know what ending you got, when my Bruce went to see him hew was ecstatic. Plus I think the real problem was his hatred of Waller and the 2 weeks he was being chased down. I still think he could be a great hero, given that his grudge with Waller is kinda over after venting and trying to kill her, and if he gets a bit better at controlling his impulses with guns and explosives and is with me from the very start.
I hope John gets another chance to be a hero towards episode 4 or 5 next season and that in the whole seasons you get visit him in Arkham while he’s there, or if he gets another chance then just for the episodes leading up to it.
I agree. I loved the episode up until the climax. This season was so damn brilliant, and TellTale just finds a way to always let you down somehow. I think there should have been multiple endings, and I don't mean that whole "Joker's reaction post-credits" nonsense! Joker should NOT be the main villain next season, so having an option to have him as an enemy or an ally should have been there. Sure, the predictable thing to expect from TellTale is that in the end your choices don't truly matter - we get that trope by now. However this season was so damn good that it made me have faith again, made me feel excited for the next episode. You know how long it's been since I felt that way about these episodic games? YEARS. It's like someone interrupted the brilliant writers and forced them to end the episode asap in the way it's expected. Don't get me wrong, the writing is still top notch, but it felt so damn rushed toward the end and forced as if it was against the writers' choice. I felt heartbroken about the falling out with vigilante Joker, but at the same time I didn't believe in it. I understood the frustration of the character's struggle to adjust, but throughout the season they showed his good side was not an act.
Personally, I wouldn't have mind waiting an extra month or two for them to add another ending that can be on par with the other endings - one where Joker stays a hero or anti-hero instead of flipping shit and becoming a psychotic killer. I don't know what happened, I feel so damn disappointed! The dialogue choices toward the end were just terrible, especially during the scene with Alfred. Plus, what the fuck? Alfred's supposed to be family, see you as family, and you mean to tell me that he's just going to walk out without any warning? That's fucked up. At least in TDKR when Alfred left Bruce, he tried pleading with him, and had years of seeing him crippled - it made sense in that movie. You just come home, Alfred's got a suitcase packed, a hat, and he's drinking then walks the fuck out like a deadbeat father! Man, what the fuck happened? This episode started out so damn good! It's not so much that Joker became bad anyway, it's the fact that he went from 0 - 100 in seconds. The pacing and reasons made no sense, it was rushed, and compared to everything beforehand - it felt like someone cut a huge chunk of story out. I'm not going to lie, my feelings are fucking hurt, but it was still a good episode ... just a disappointing ending.
You're really telling me they couldn't have done more with the partnership?
I was hoping that John would have mentioned something other than the violence solves things comment since I used nothing but money to get myself out of situations. I was fine otherwise.
Basically it's all about pacing and not enough time to deliver a point - why vigilante is so frustrating in some aspects.
I digested an episode a little. I think I got what they wanted to say with Joker turning against Batman in vigilante. He even explained why. It was just a little lost in everything else.
It's not about justice or Batman or even Waller, it's more about John himself - he just started losing himself, trying to pretend he was Batman. losing yourself is scary, it's like a death. By nature (or chemical bath) John is set on path of being a villain. Basically, playing "hero" he goes against his nature. Batman not playing along and world being too grey, and him failing as a hero just made him snap and realize he not only didn't succeed, but also was about to lose himself forever. And building a grudge against Bruce for using him, John, of course, got angry at Batman. That and Batman being not as perfect as John believed. The moment Batman had to compromise with Waller John's respect for him suffered a lot of damage.
It's just very difficult to develop characters in such a short time.
And Waller - there were not a lot of options here, it's either murdering her, or blackmailing. No jail.
Murder is a no on Batman list, no matter what we want.
Besides, depsite everything, she's not evil. She's corrupt, she's not a nice person, but she's not a rabid dog to shoot. She deserves demotion and a jail, imo, because this whole situation from the begining is her doing. She's the one to blame.
And in the fairytale version, maybe, we could have bring her to justice. Unfortunatly, this aint' a fairytale.
But even for Batman version, I think, vigilante route offers a lot of possibilities.
And the ending is somewhat happy. Again, it's not a fairytale ending, but
a)waller's ass out of town
b)you're friends with John
c)John recieves help in Arkham
d)Bruce visits John in Arkham, John happy, John doesn't look deranged.
The ending is open.
Same here man. I had faith like the good old days. I thought they changed.
Alfred pissed me off as well. First of all if you disagree with the plan to manipulate John, he assures you to double-cross him to get into the PAct. He complains about Viillian Joker and Viglinate Joker. WHAT WAS THE CORRECT CIRCUMSTANCE THEN?Alfred says he let Bruce down then proceeds to leave. Not even gonna try fixing your actions?Didn't even complain about it before. I think it should have been a long vacation at least which would make some sort of sense instead of" I'm gone, deal with it"
For anyone trying to convince me that 'm wrong. Don't bother. I found no consolation and had negative enjoyment. I'm surprised I was able to finish it.
Well you arnt telling me anything else they could have done with the partnership...
Well, they could've just gave us an option to convince John not to slit Waller's throat and make it hard to achieve.
The problem here is with players having no control over events. No matter what you do, you can't stop the train.
You're actually kidding me if you think all they could have done was have him fight Bane for a few minutes and talk with Alfred in an alley. You're actually kidding me. What if we took him to the Batcave? Planning to attack the Agency? Give him some gadgets? ActualProfessional writers should have a field day with this.
for me, hearing them say it was their "branchiest" episode made me think about how maybe they would start letting us make choices that would actually alter the story and players would have different world states and not some slight dialogue changes, part of me knew that would be hoping too much but i got caught up in the hype so i guess that's on me.
I don't see where they got their gazillamillion lines(or was it something other than lines?) that's the same as the Nolan trilogy
That isnt part of their partnership. I will agree it would have been interesting if John could determinatly kill Waller, but I was talking about what else would Telltale do during that time between the ally scene and the GCPD roof scene for the partnership to last longer.
Well no Im not kidding, again I said what could they have done to further the story, while maintain the partnership, without creating pacing issues along with making sure the scenes are still important to the story.
What if we take John to the Batcave. Ok, now what? Why is he in the Batcave what are we doing there? Why are we attacking the Agency exactly? John wants to attack the Agency, we dont, the only reason the Agency doesnt like us is because we helped John and wants us to turn him in, and even if we did Waller would just reveal our identity, so that isnt even an option realistically. Joker already had plenty of gadgets, wouldnt need another scene where we give him even more.
Really there isnt much else to do here if you have Vigilante Joker, its just how the outcome would have happened, pretty sure there isnt really anyway to make it work "the way you wanted" even if you completely rewrote episode 5. For what the past episodes had done and lead up to, this is really the only direction it could have went.
Why are we attacking the Agency?
They attacked us.
Corrupt
That good enough for you?
@Poogers555
You expect me to write a script? How is there "nothing to do"? Is fighting Bane for a few minutes and talking in an alleyway which lasted about 20-30 minutes good enough for all the hype and advertisement we got fed? And please don't say "Oh technically they were different"
Um again, they only attacked us due to us helping John, if we didnt help John they wouldnt attack, and again we just cant attack the Agency even if it made any sense story wise because Batman wouldnt attack the Agency in general, and even if for some reason he would, again Waller would just leak out that Batman is Bruce Wayne due to him attacking the Agency.
Like what are we going to do to the Agency exactly when we attack them? Its not like Batman kills, whats he gonna do just go beat them up and tell them to "cut it out!" and then real mean tell Waller to "STOP IT!!!!" The actual Agency isnt corrupt either, Waller is, so why attack the agents for Waller's crimes exactly? Plus John would obviously just kill the agents if they attacked, and Batman obviously isnt going to allow that. Attacking the Agency would make 0 sense in the story.
If we didn't help John they wouldn't have tatacked? Are you forgetting that Waller tried ot kill John on the bridge?
Nope, was simply saying that for episode 5 to work out the way you wanted the entire season would have had to be different, what you were expecting was just unrealistic for what this story was. I dont recall Telltale every saying that Vigilante Joker = Partners, just because John wanted to be partners doesnt mean the whole episode is going to be about them being partners. I mean even the Vigilante Trailer shows that it was pretty obvious the main focus of the episode was going to be the power struggle between Joker and Batman. Both episodes arnt technically different, because they are different. I think you just set yourself up for an unrealistic idea of where the plot would go and are now disappointed by it. This is no where close to Telltale lying to players at all, ANF's hype was lying to players, this is not.
Why are you fixated on the idea that no scenario would have worked so this is justified?
Thats literally my point, Waller didnt want us to interfere, thus why we were enemies to the Agency. Im talking about the Agency attacking us in episode 5.
I literally discussed this. Loopholing around the truth is disgusting. Telltale gave us the idea.What do screenshots of Jokerangs and back to back with Bat man and typing suicide squad as the main villian? Don't use that it they never said specifically that. I discussed this a while ago really bro?
Yeah, sorry, didn't answer your actual question.
I guess, I meant we already DID have partnership, and they could have ended it with us using our influence to convince John to let Waller go.
In my eyes, the "fairytale" scenario would be good enough if we could have make John let Waller go, and when just allow him go, much like Selina. So he's out of the picture, but free. And no fight between him and Batman occurs depending on player's choices.
I actually wasnt' talking about allowing him to kill Waller, but that's an interesting outcome too, now, when you're mentioned it. Strange we weren't given an option. Batman doesn't kill, yes, but we did a lot of questionable stuff in this season, so it actually would make sense.
And about
Actually, I was thinking about blackmailing Waller before. And I thought, what maybe, we had to work with vigilante to recieve blackmail material. But instead we just called Avesta. Which is pretty disappointing - everything is so easy.
I was sure we had to infiltrate Agency, find the data - but no. Just a call.
Then what is your point?
I could ask you why you are so fixated on the idea the scenario given wasnt the one that made sense for the overall story? Im sorry but all the examples youve given just would not work in anyway for the story to keep the same themes, pacing, and overall plot. You cant just say "OH THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS!!!" but not give any back up to why they should have done that, or why it would have worked. Just because something could make a "cool" scene, it wont matter if in the overall story it would make 0 sense to happen, for example, us attacking the Agency.
OH MY GOD STOP SAYING I WANTED A SPECIFIC SCRNARIO. I expected a partnership for longer than 20 minutes. I don't care what they especially said. They knew what they were insinuating. Might have made sense for you but it didn't for me. Why can't you accept the fact that this pathway was intolerable for Me? It's not because I'm a Joker fanboy that WANTED the exact scenario to occur.
So one screenshot = whole episode is us working with Joker. Trailer also showed there was going to be a power struggle with Batman and Joker, and Waller is another "antagonist" in the vigilante version. Most people who watched that trailer pretty easily could figure out the plot was going to go us working with John even if we dont think its the best idea, fight Waller and her squad, until we have a falling out with John leading him to be the final climax. They didnt show Joker kidnapping Waller because that would be too many spoilers.
You really expect me to say OH I actually enjoyed the episode on the inside after how I felt and feel about it currently?
OH MY GOD I DID NOT EXPECT IT TO LAST THE WHOLE EPISODE. I EXPECTED IT FOR HALF OF THE EPISODE OR TWO THIRDS OF IT AT MOST.