In Defense of Vigilante scenario (spoilers)
So, after having read the forums and finishing both routes, id firstly like to say i enjoyed villain route but LOVED vigilante route. Several have claimed that vigilante route was good but not AS good as villain, and that is fine. Others however have stated that vigilante route is blatantly bad or disappointing, to which id like to make some counter arguments towards.
1) Joker becomes the bad guy no matter what.
Well, actually, i believe Joker was NOT a bad guy in vigilante route. actually, he was a good guy but with different ideologies. Joker doesnt kill any innocents. protects his groupies. Mourns one of their deaths "if u let wally get crushed by Bane." and directs all of his aggression towards Waller, who can be viewed as the real bad guy. No...i dont believe Joker turns Joker here.
2) Joker's breakdown is too sudden.
To be fair, i thought so at first as well, but after thinking...no, i guess it was fair. First, this breakdown has been building up through the entire season. 2nd, it wasn't that sudden.
Joker looked up to Batman as a God who could do no wrong. It was what kept him from going over the edge the entire season. That batman stood for something so purely and nothing could weaken him. When joker meets u on the rooftop of the gcpd for the laptop, n pleads for mercy for Harley. if you reply no compromise...he praises u for it! Even tho its for harley. Episode 5, he works with u closely n finds...batmans not all hes cracked up to be. He DOES compromise with Waller. To just ler go despite all her terrible crimes n pulling a gun on john. Batman isn't what he thought. He calls batman a hypocrite...n john is absolutely right. Why WOULD john want to work with batman anymore? John holds his own trial for Waller, for which batman cant accept, n wants to let waller out. John cracks. There is no purity. No justice. Everything that kept joker stable-false. he loses it. and what fight scene that ensues.
- Should have just let joker kill waller.
ok...there's player choice sure...but this is STILL A Batman game. Can u umagine if batman just said "ur right john. Slit her throat. I'll do tiffany's." I dont think that fits.
However...some points i DO agree with.
Not enough joker/batman screen time.
Granted, id have liked to see more as well. but what we got was great at least. Action packed. but still kind of goofy and genuinely funny. Id have liked more, but what was there was genuinely GREAT!
Where'd Catwoman go?
I agree with this. id have liked some closure here. Tho if u fail to bargain her freedom, i DO see why she wudnt make an appearance...but a bonus clip for those who succeeded at releasing her cud have at least got a txt.
Bit of defense in terms of endings for villain and vigilante
The endings of BOTH were too open and/or abrupt?
Really? I was pretty satisfied? According to my cannon...joker is in Arkham where he and Bruce continue to maintain a friendship. Bruce gives up batman for alfred. Selina is free and will likely go back to brice (why not? its obvious if u followed romantic route) Avesta is employed at Wayne Enterprises. Gordon can fight for his old job...which he ll likely get. Tiff is my protege. I mean...when is enough enough. Telltale realky went all out here...so far as to include FRANK...a JOKE thats been running in the forums. i think telltale put their heart and soul into this episode n i thin they succeeded...for me...yeah..they won back my trust and then some. I applaud u telltale and thank u for delivering a truly excellent finale. I am satisfied. Id love a season 3, but even if there isnt, i am atisfied with this. U really tried to give us everything with whatever u had. Telltale is stilla relativeky small company...i cant eveb fathom how they cud have given us anymore.
from this fan at least telltale, u have certainly earned my respect back after a few lacklustre titles.
Well done.
Comments
Vigilante was leagues better in my opinion. Tiffany actually got significant screentime as Batgirl, you get to work with Gordon again and he doesn't get kneecapped, the Suicide Squad parts were intense, and Regina doesn't get killed. I also much prefer fighting vigilante Joker in Ace Chemicals as Batman when he snaps and cant stop laughing as opposed to fighting him as Bruce at the carnival. The early watchers made me have serious doubts about the vigilante route but all in all it was amazing and I enjoyed it the most out of the two.
Agreed, the vigilante fight was a HELL of a climax. The villain fight left no major impact on me. But the vigilante fight had me at the edge of my seat. Really felt more emotional. Joker fought better...n even tho he wasnt full joker...t still felt more joker-y. Using his tricks. STILL trying to shoot tiff. And a rough suicide squad was cherry on top with REAL bane. AWESOME
And I thought the vigilante fight was even more brutal than the villain one. Sure, Joker and Bruce both stab each other in the villain fight, but vigilante Joker and Batman fight for a good 4 minutes without letting up. Just a constant barrage of punches, knives and batarangs/jokerangs to each other, shocking each other, smashing faces into walls and railings, and taking potshots at one another. And of course, Joker's crazy laughter the entire time, even as he's getting socked in the face multiple times.
Brutal, emotional, chaotic... all the things I look for in a final fight.
I'm joining all the comments above, I agree, vigilante fight was a way more satisfying, brutal and to me it felt more like Joker fight. And a big bonus - we fought as Batman. I love playing as Bruce, but Joker fight feels more right to me when we fight as Batman.
Vigilante was superior across the board imo. The only thing I liked more about Villain was it had better interactions with Selina, and the introduction was absolutely brutal. The entire middle of the Villain route is basically just couch-time with John. Does he emotionally and psychologically torture Bruce? Sure. But at the end of the day he's just being a crybaby because his bff didn't believe him that one time. Vigilante John fits John's Character Arc more, and makes perfect sense with everything that's happened. Also the fight scene is far superior than in the Villain ending. Not only does John fight better as a Vigilante, but he laughs like a complete maniac the entire time, and honestly ends up scarier than anything Villain John did.
I just checked and the Villain fight is 9 minutes long. Of course that there is Harley also in the fight. If you want to count how long it lasts the final fight in which is just John and Batman they fight in the funhouse for 4 minutes and 5 seconds.
Well, okay, if you count the dinner portion of the fight, it's a lot longer. But I was talking in terms of the final showdown between Bruce and Joker. And that fight itself only lasts about a minute or so. Rest of it is Joker's apparent death all that. The final showdown in the vigilante path on the other hand has the two of them grappling around the area and beating the shit out of each other for like 4 minutes.
I preferred vigilante simply because it was a lot more Batman centric, which sort of makes up for all the time you spent undercover as Bruce throughout episodes 2-4. The showdown with Joker at the end was also climactic, and I think thematically it fits in better with the rest of the season than the villain path.
That's not to say that the villain path was bad though. From a narrative and technical standpoint it felt more focused and polished than the vigilante path, and for those that wanted a more traditional Joker, Anthony Ingruber definitely delivers on his performance (he's massively improved since the first season). I just prefer playing Batman though, and even though John's grudge is primarily aimed towards Bruce, it would've been nice if we got to spend more time playing as Batman before being trapped in Joker's funhouse.
Cute, but i didn't mean bad in it's literal sense. You know what i meant. If we mean it in literal semse, lets go ahead n count Gordon, Batman, Bruce up there as well
But they just fight for 2 minutes and 18 seconds
If you meant bad as in evil, all that proof still stands.
You might not like Waller, but he tried to kill her like 7 times in the episode and in 3/4 she was unarmed. What he did to the agents was outright murder, he was literally going to kill Tiffany, she could have died if it wasn't for her hand. Also, even though it isn't in this episode, blowing up the bridge is still part of the Vigilante path, he killed 6 agents there, if you don't trust John you discover there are innocent civilians and normal cops too, and since in the Vigilante ending of Ep 4 you don't have your gadgets to save them is safe to assume they died, since the explosion was the same.
Agreed. I liked villain route but...it seemed joker failed and he seemed so powerless.
Other than the intro, joker came off as pathetic. Joker set the whole thing up to nreak bruces heart as he broke his...ok...but...gordon didnt betray me...he confessed on the radio what he was doing...thats forgivable. Selina didnt leave me n fought by my side. tiff helped me escape. Alfred was solid as ever. if it was intended to be a mind game...it was a failure. all of bruces allies kind of proved joker wrong so it's impact was lost. Joker shot gordon but then...joker let him go (wtf)? alfred, selina n tiff suffered a few whacks to the head...ok...n then joker got his butt kicked in the fight n could barely keep up. It was underwhelming. i know it sounds sick...but joker should have gone way further with his mind game outside of "ur friends betrayed u...oh they didnt? whatever, whack their head." Shud have neen WAY more suffering to lve an impact.
other than villains intro...yeh...joker vigilante was way more brutal, in control, and intense.
I'm starting to think you're one of my high school math teachers that has come back to haunt me
and
That.
What did Vigilante John accomplished in his path that doesn't make him powerless? Maybe I missed a few scenes I only watched it on youtube. But so far he failed at everything in the most pathetic way there is. His main objective was destroying the Agency, to which he fails. He couldn't even harm Waller, because of his long dramatic monologues, and he made no real damage to Bruce at the end, unlike that painful stab in the Villain ending.
Of course that the things he did in the Villain ending were in large part to Harley, but he still managed to leave Gordon as a cripple, make Selina give Tiffany a beating, leaving a nasty scar on Bruce, in my case ruin Tiffany relationship with my Bruce, and all of that he did on his own.
Could Joker really be considered immoral here? Could he really be considered evil if what he believes he is doing is right?
Waller did the same thing...throwing away her own agents as pawns and endangering cuvilians. Joker is right to criticize batz for compromising with her n letying her walk away. Hes also right for believeing she deserves punishment...batz wants to just let her go...joker wants tit for tat cuz waller is above her own system. I...kind of agree with joker. She shudnt just walk away. Joker in vigilante only kills her agents...even om the bridge, waller mentioned he killed 3 of agents...she didnt mentiom any civies. Agents are her soldiers. Finallt, he just loses patience and has a psychotic brealkdown after batmans hypocrisies...i cant say i blame him. Waller, depending on.how u look at it, can be viewed as even more evil than Joker but sje convinces herself shes doing right. But batman giver her a free pass. What justice is that?
Agree, Vigilante felt like the better version to me.
One thing I thought was weird was how in Vigilante ending John gets beaten up way more, but in Villain version he gets beaten up a little bit and fucking dies lmao
I HATED fighting Joker in the Vigilante
hes my bud! I agree there wasnt enough screentime of them both
Interesting.
Selina didnt give tiff a beatdown in my playthru. must be choice dependent. Yes, he shot gordons knees...but not impactful cuz we never SEE the damage. We dont know for sure hes a cripple...his codex reads he ll prolly walk again witha cane...so...not a cripple...that point of joker fails. Play vigilante urself...joker messes batz UP. in villain...his stab is a cheap sneak shot...in vigilante, joker earns every blow. Bottom line is...joker tried to make a point in villain-it didnt land. Joker tried to make a point in vigilante-it DID land. Joker wanted waller-he got her. Joker took down Bane. Joker intimidated me AND had me feel sorry in his fight. Villain did none of these. N yes, i was disappointed to see he was still undrer harleys thumb a bit.
Villaoin was a good watch
Vigilante had me engaged
Totally, we have a few examples in history, won't mention it because I don't want the whole Godwin's law on me.
You allowed John to walk away too, both at the beginning of the Ep 5 and because you choose to trust him in Ep 4, why John deserves a chance of redemption but Waller doesn't? Kicking her out of the city is not just letting her go, specially not after all the shit you can tell her and put her through. You can't put Waller, the director of the Agency in a cell. And Batman doesn't kill so what punishment can you give her but a boot in the ass?
The bridge explosion is the same, Vigilante or Villain. Not because you don't see it or Waller doesn't mention there it doesn't happen, you can miss the chance to ask Waller in Ep 2 if Avesta knows you're Bruce and not because you don't pick that option Avesta doesn't know, is just player/batman knowledge that is affected.
You can't say you blame the guy for going psycho? Why not? I don't think the agents he killed are going to be relieved to hear that he had a reason as to why he killled them. And as I said, exile is an actual punishment, even in 2018 you can get kicked out from countries, cities, etc etc. That's what you're doing with Waller. And it seems to be punishment enough for the Batman in game.
It is common knowledge that being in a psychotic, laughing rage turns you into a goddamn abrams tank for a few minutes
Selina always makes Tiffany eat her boot and then grabs her from the neck.
If he can't walk properly, meaning he needs a cane, is considered a cripple.
I wouldn't say he messes Batman up, they were both just tired from fighting, and messing Batman up is not a real accomplishment, there isn't a single Villain who didn't leave Batman a bit sore.
Villain Joker doesn't even care about Waller, why would he want to get her? And yes, Vigilante Joker got Waller, and he didn't kill her or actually do anything to her. Taking down Bane is not something he wanted to do, and he didn't do it alone.
What do you mean by John intimidating you? Villain should totally have you scared shitless of him killing Selina, Alfred or Tiffany, he's totally unpredictable, you have to be scare and angry, maybe feel pity for him if you liked John. But is not as if TTG didn't want you to be emotionally attached to the Villain path.
If you like John though, I don't see why you didn't feel sorry for him in the Villain path when is clear that he feels betrayed and lonely.
Whoa whoa whoa. Im not saying what he did was ok. I really like Waller.
I can simply understand his stance, also mixed with a personal grudge. When going to war with another country, do u consider the soldiers? no,gotta take them down to get to the king. John saw her as a brutal tyrant who needed elimination. It isnt right, but i get his viewpoint. This falls in a grey area where both points of view have some merit. unlike villain where jokers going around killing civies for laughs. I mean, look at N korea
if we had to wage war to stop the leader...wed have to go thru the soldiers right? Waller had a "for the greater good" mentality...john had a twisted version of that. He did legitametely believe Waller needed to face justice...which sje should
Lol.
Yeh. After going thru vigilante first then villain...when joker died, i was surprised by how quickly he just kind of...well...died
That's how weak you can make yourself by shaving off your eyebrow.
Did you see how psychotic John looked during the vigilante ending? He was so out of his mind that he likely barely felt any pain during most of that fight.
Oh I know, I was just saying it for a meme really. It was just kinda funny seeing him getting hurt way worst, but then the other dies from a few punches and a body slam lmao
You don't even need to punch him at the end after you body slam him, which he'll complain about before he suddenly dies, which makes it look even more pathetic lmao.
Although to be fair he was also stabbed a couple times beforehand, so it's not too hard to believe he might've lost a bit too much blood.
I think the "death" makes sense if you just keep punching him. That's five full-force punches straight into his face, after all the various stab wounds and other injuries. But if you decide to be merciful and not punch him? Yeah, that makes it look a bit ridiculous.
Oh... so that's why he passed out in that moment in my game...
I thought he just miscounted punches.
I have to agree that I truly enjoyed the Vigilante route ( now that I've experienced both. ) I'm likely in the minority that didn't find John's crossing over to the 'villain' side sudden at all. In the moment, I understood it, because in the way that it was written... John had a point.
Batman was a hypocrite in his dealings with Waller. The game didn't provide another option not to be. For the crimes that she had committed, there is no scenario in which just leaving town off of a blackmail stalemate should have been 'Justice'. She openly tortures people - right in front of Batman. She's enslaved people. Yes, they're villains, but that's not the way things work. That's not how Batman explained things to John. In that moment, John called Batman out on it, and reverted to his way of doing things as his idol was just another Waller in his eyes.
This does absolutely nothing to excuse the methods John uses that follows, but it had been triggered just as Waller had triggered him on that bridge. I considered that deeply when later the decision came to Tiffany. She committed premeditated murder. Would I play the hypocrite again and say ' well, what you did was wrong, but I won't turn you in because I loved him too? ' No. John was right. Justice was justice, not when it's convenient to me. She had to answer for it.
the only problem i had was waller getting away with everything but i do think the vigilante part was good
She gets away with it even worse in the villain route, like nobody even uncovers her crimes at all. At least you have leverage over her in the vigilante route.
My main problem with the route is that I fully agreed with the Joker when he called out Batman's hypocrisy on the rooftop. Waller was a criminal, and as Batman said it himself, everything that happened in the previous 4 episodes were ultimately caused by her. Of course, Waller's the head of an immensely powerful organization, and knows Batman's identity. But many villains led big gangs, yet Batman still fought them. Villain Joker knew of Batman's identity, and did that make Bruce hesitate to confront him? Heck, unmasking yourself before Lady Arkham was an absolutely valid and fitting choice in the first season - but it seems like now Batman considers his identity more important than his ideals.
I reloaded that scene several times, hoping to at least try to bring Waller in (only to be kept from doing so by some circumstance in true Telltale fashion :P) and it absolutely enraged me that no such choice was available.
The bridge confrontation in episode 4 aside, I think this scene is indeed the one that really pushed John down the slippery slope, and considering what happened, I found his disillusionment with Batman and his descent to absolute insanity and violence to be quite believable. In that aspect, I think Telltale did a good job. But they could only accomplish this by forcing the player down a route that my Batman would never choose, with no way of even trying to get out of it, and as far as player agency goes, that was a horrible decision.
The people who liked the Villain route more are delusional and/or children. I mean you really preferred playing a game of "Never have I ever" over teaming up with the Joker to take on the Suicide Squad? Are you serious?
The only thing better in the Villain route was the final dialogue between Batman and Joker. I really loved the knife in Batman's side line.
Am I also the only one who thought that Villain joker was actually nicer to Batman than Vigilante joker? I mean Villain Joker was defending Batman thought-out the whole dinner scene when Harley wanted to kill him. Whereas in the Vigilante path Joker went all out trying to kill Batman lmao.
Still an amazing episode, and one of Telltale's best. I was pretty pissed off that they forced the Joker turning on us thing in the Vigilante route though. But that fight scene made up for it. Telltale's best imo.
Well, I would certainly hope I am not delusional and about the children thing is just silly to be fair
Let's see, we got to team up with Joker for the first 30min of the episode and then everything got messed up at the GCPD rooftops. I was disappointed since I would have rather see a more focus on the battle between Batman/Joker vs The Agency and the suicide squad more then we got...
It was over way to fast and moved out to a hostage situation with Waller at the Ace Chemicals. I thought Joker was handled better in the villain storyline and I thought it was more exciting and kept me on more edge then the Vigilante Joker did.
I would not call beating Bruce/Batman the entire episode and try to screw him over in every possible way is nicer then he was in the Vigilante path. The only reason Joker kept Bruce alive was that of his thirst for vengeance since he blames his breakdown on Bruce... and sooner or later he was gonna kill Bruce so it was not like he was gonna spare him if he had the choice.
The "Never have I ever" game was exciting as well and well made, I was on edge, which I could not say I was when I played the Vigilante path...
So, yeah I prefer the Villain path over the Vigilante path, but to make myself clear. I did not think the Vigilante path was bad. It was alright but Villain path was better and more exciting IMO.
We fought Suicide squad with John for no more than 10 minutes if not less
That is a stupid logic, sorry. With it Joker in Villain route could be just considered immoral too. He believes that Bruce betrayed him and is the villain in his opinion. You just don`t want to see that John turns evil in the end.