Was Kenny labelled as a villain in Season 2?
RitchieMitchie
Banned
Please for the love of god, no arguments or hate towards the character!! I only wanted to ask this because of a discussion i had with someone regarding this. I personally wouldn’t say he was a villain despite his violent and angry actions towards the end of the game. I think to be considered a villain is a bit strong. Have Telltale confirmed that he is at all?
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Eeeh...sorta.
It is worth noting that he and "Carver" were originally envisioned as being the same person, but they decided to make the latter an original character and later incorporated the former anyway, leading to the Season 2(and Season 2.5) we ended up with.
But in context, nah, I wouldn't outright call him a villain per say. An asshole, yes. A hero antagonist, sorta of. But villain? Not bad(good?) enough for the role.
He was more of a....troublesome hero.
Not at all. Kenny, like Lilly, was flawed and made some shitty and debatable choices. His intentions, though, always came from a good place and a desire to protect those he cared for. That automatically singles him out from ever being considered a villain.
Well I could say he is a anti-villain I guess. Or maybe antihero.
I was gonna add on, cause I thought you were talking about Arvo for a second.
Well I wasn't. Plus Arvo was hardly a intimidating villain.
Well, obviously depends on how you play, he can be more of a sympathetic antagonist (but not a true villain) or an anti-hero. I agree, calling him a villain is a little strong, but if you wanted to say he wasn't a very moral person, that I wouldn't try to argue against.
Well him not being very moral is debatable to be honest. I think he knows between right and wrong, he often shows guilt or remorse for the things he does. Maybe not to a huge extent but i am pretty sure he is moral most of the time
It depends on how you view him and which ending you got. I can consider him an antagonist (not a full villain though, rather a good character turned bad) in Jane`s endings for example which I got. But in Wellington ending or if you stay with him he is not a villain for sure. Again, it depends on how you approach it.
No it doesn't. The best villains are the ones who think that they're doing what's best for the most amount of people. Only shitty villains are cartoon versions of "evil" and do evil shit for the sake of doing evil shit.
Take Negan from the comics (show Negan is a fair bit cartoony). Negan saw nearly everyone he ever knew killed through their weakness or infighting so his solution was to become a brutal enforcer and force people to cooperate, whether they wanted to or not because without cooperation humanity is doomed to extinction in a zombie apocalypse. He was brutal, did horrible things, but in his head it was all for the greater good to keep as many people alive as possible. He created a basic trade network by forcing smaller communities to farm and donate to his larger community and in exchange his larger community would provide protection and keep walker numbers down in the area and deal with any large herds.
Another example of a well done villain is Thanos from the MCU. He wanted to wipe out half of life in the universe so that no one else would suffer the same fate his people did, overpopulation, overharvest, planetary ruin, and finally, extinction.
Both of them were flawed in their method for handling their motivations, but they had the greater good in mind and the best interests of people in mind.
Almost everything Kenny did actually did come from a good place but that doesn't automatically mean he's not a villain. Not a particularly good one, kinda' like the Governor in that regard, but a villain nonetheless. That said, Kenny wasn't a villain... until he was. In the end, when his sanity was all but gone, he became a villain. He was dangerous to anyone around him, even Clem. He saw AJ as Duck 2.0 and no one was going to take Duck away from him again. Imagine if Clem were holding AJ, running, and fell. If she accidentally killed AJ Kenny would have lost his shit on her. Or if walkers got AJ while Clem was holding him, if Kenny and Clem managed to survive such a scenario, he'd blame her for AJ's death and lose his shit.
the game feels like it's pushing him as the bad guy in the second half of the season, except for the scenes where he and clem act like they're really close.
It's like the game is bipolar or something.
Forgot the reply bottom because I'm an idiot- this is in response to @Hillbilly_Dave
You're right, actually. Villains do not necessarily have to have bad intentions to be warranted as a bad guy. They, like the ones you mentioned, can have good overall motivations for why they do what they do. But there does always come a point in the story where they're shown to be wrong, shown to be from most moral standpoints, bad and that their actions do not justify what they intended to gain. A point where they do go too far. That's what makes them villains, even if they are sympathetic or in some cases, right in terms of motivation. Kenny, from my perspective, doesn't fit that bill completely and that's where I disagree with you. I should've made this clearer in my initial post, really, but alas...
Kenny isn't presented as being entirely right or wrong. He's shown to be flawed and complex, but not villainous. His actions and he, himself as a character, is largely subjective based on whether one agrees with him or not. To me, he was a survivor who had trouble keeping his anger in check, who could truly be a stubborn piece of shit at times, but ultimately never lost that family instinct he had and always tried to protect those he loves. That scenario you presented where you argue that Kenny could be dangerous to Clem, I completely disagree with it and could never see him being a threat to her. Now I'm not going to argue why in much depth since I've had a ton of Kenny arguments in the past (I mean, it's basically 90% of my posts) and if you're really interested to know why I feel that way, you can look through some of my old posts, but what I'm getting at is the subjectivity of the character. He can be looked at in many different ways. A villain, by right, is bad. They can be sympathetic, relatable, have understandable motives, but their actions always make them bad. Carver was a villain. The Stranger was a villain. Kenny's too subjective to just be written off as a villain and lumped in with them. Kenny's acts, from my own point of view, do not make him a bad man. His acts can be debated. An anti-hero fits his character much better.
I'd honestly say it's up to interpretation. I really felt like that's how S2 was attempting to paint Kenny in the end-- up to the player to decide. Despite how some people feel, I never got the impression that S2 was pushing Kenny as a bad guy, per se. All I felt the game was trying to do was make you consider (or reconsider) your stance on him. There's multiple ways to see him in S2: is he a broken man trying to do the best he can, someone that you know is still capable of warmth, that can be brought back from his faltering sanity? Do you see him as a tragic figure, slowly losing his sanity and slowly losing the support of everyone around him as he continues to spiral downwards, as you hold on to the fleeting hope of trying to save him? Or maybe you just see him as a man that has already gone over the edge, someone that's too far gone to be brought back, despite your best attempts. None of these are objectively wrong, he's a character with enough depth to be judged from a different perspective by different people. There's no one way to look at his character, if you ask me. Kenny isn't a saint, he isn't a devil. Kenny is... well, Kenny. Whatever you make of him as a person, that's up to you.
And then you have a lot of other variables that the game seems to be questioning you on; your loyalty to Kenny, the amount of sympathy you feel towards his plight, whether you agree with his actions, whether you agree with the way the rest of the group sees him (consider that while we got to see the full extent of everything Kenny has suffered and lost, none of the S2 group have seen it. They're simply judging him based off what they've personally seen, and unfortunately, most of his actions in S2 don't paint him as the most sympathetic nor stable person at first glance).
A lot of people feel like episode 5 in particular was pushing an anti-Kenny narrative, but like I said, I never quite got that impression. I see episode 5 trying to be a cautionary warning-- Kenny isn't necessarily a bad man, but there have been multiple ambiguous signs that suggest he may be heading down such a path. Even some of those Carver comparisons made in episode 5 don't feel like they're insinuating that he's exactly like Carver; they're simply pointing out the possibility of Kenny beginning down a similar path that Carver did, and the possibility of him shedding his humanity and sanity not unlike Carver did.
The worst Kenny ever got was shout at Clem. His mission was to keep/get the kids somewhere safe. I dont think he would do to Clem what he did to Jane if something had happened to AJ. An accident or not, i just don’t think he would given the lengths he went to for them.
So i think the term “villain” is wrong to describe his character.
I doubt he'd have killed Clem if AJ got killed, but I'm certain he'd blame her and possibly even smack her up a bit before he got control of himself.
It's like a third of the main cast is bipolar, tbh.
More of an anti-hero in my opinion.
If you leave with him, his flashbacks in ANF all show him as calm and very caring and human, like he was at the start of season one.
I think he just lost his way for a bit, being in the group.
Too bad his stupid death ruined the leaving with Kenny ending..
If they wouldve just killed Arvo then Kenny wouldve calmed his tits
Exactly.
Mike was the big disappointment. He seemed to have a thing for Arvo.
In Mike's shoes, my big concern is Clementine. I could say to Kenny "Ok all his people are dead. Let's just leave him here. On his own, he has virtually no chance of survival, but at least we can say we didn't kill/torture him and we gave him a chance to survive"
Instead Mike just seemed to want Arvo sewn to his hip. Even willing to steal all the supplies from Clementine, and Mike still wanted to leave with Arvo after Arvo shot Clementine.
For me, Mike is the worst type of character. A bloke pretending to be a good guy but is actually a complete prick. I'd prefer Carver, at least he knows he's an arse and is honest about things. I'm sure he'd have killed Arvo after Arvo shot Clementine too.
Also Bonnie if that bitch doesn't drown...
Arvo was a mistake, I blame him for the stupid shootout scene and the stupid lake scene. (Ik its the writers fault but if they hadn't created Arvo then those scenes wouldn't have happened)
Also Mike and Bonnie siding with Arvo to that extremity (betraying everyone else including a newborn and a little girl for a guy whose group attacked you) is just retarded.
Ever since I found out about Bonnie's betrayal, whenever I replay that episode I never break the ice for her (when you try to help Luke) so she just drowns.
Luke's death is dumb. He sees the ice cracks under his feet so he could've controlled his fall into the water. He just falls like a rock into the water, he sinks instantly. And the hole he left on the ice was pretty big especially when Bonnie tries to help. I guess the current of the lake was massive and Luke is a poor swimmer.
You realize he was acting like that long before Arvo "joined" the group, right?
Arvo was just an easy target he could take it out on.
Not to that extent he didn't except when killing Carver.
Actually, it was ultimately Kenny who decided to take Arvo up on his offer to escort the group to food and shelter(and ultimately a truck).
So it's his fault for the way it ended and his call for most of it's start as well.
We actually don't know that for sure. All we see is Arvo take off after realizing what he just did, then Mike/Bonnie tells the other(assuming Bonnie is even there, of course) that they gotta go now considering how the situation will inevitably be seen.
So for all we know, he(and Bonnie) headed off separately from wherever Arvo went at some point or another.
Also important to note is that they were trying to getting setup for when they'd leave when Clementine came outside and caught them in a compromising position, to which Mike was actually willing to take her(and possibly AJ, though it never gets that far) with them.
Getting away from Kenny specifically was clearly the motive.
So the guy who put up with a lot from the guy whose first [onscreen] impression was to attack him for trying to help him understand the work they've been, stayed behind to save that same guy in the herd when he could have just left(which he told him to do at one point, iirc), always looked out for the kids(from AJ up to Arvo), and did so much to help protect the group beyond what he owed them(if anything) was pretending to be a good guy?
The impression I ultimately get from that is that Luke and Bonnie drifted a bit in trying to recover from falling in and just swam straight up to get out through the part of the ice they ended up under and where Clementine can break them out with her gun. So either they couldn't actually see/find the original hole from where they were or they simply overlooked it in the panic to get out.
Also, Luke was both shot in one of his legs and gets dragged down by a walker if Clementine tried to save him. And considering you kinda need your legs to swim the most efficiently...
I don't feel Kenny was the antagonist of season 2. I think that spot belongs to Carver.
However, I think that Kenny can be perceived as a villain, with how he beat Arvo half to death. I also think Kenny was messed up in the head in season 2.
From those options, I guess they paniced coz day light would reveal where the hole is. What comes to the legs then Adrenaline takes away the pain from the leg but the walker is a problem but nothing impossible to escape from.
Beforehand, he
I agree with some of your points.
Reckless to say the least but he was trying to help.
That was just stupid, I give you that.
I don't think it was reckless plan. Rather try my luck with the herd than wait for Carver to kill me.
Blowing off some steam, i mean it was just a walker. I don't recall needing Mike to snap him out of it. I told Mike to get the water and after that Mike was outta there. (Correct me if I'm wrong)
Fair point. I didn't really take his determinant actions into account there(or action, anyway) and it's a good while since I watched any playthroughs seriously.
This.
It's been a few years since I played it but didn't a zombie grab Luke and drag him down?
Yeah a walker conveniently grabs his leg
Yeah that was BS. There just so happens to be a walker that's capable of swimming in the same spot Luke fell in.
Maybe it was Michael Phelps
It was likely one of the walkers that fell in earlier after trying to follow the group from under the ice.
He was more of an antagonist than a full blown villain.