He told @Ghetsis that he takes issue with Clem because she's just surviving, and i'm showing him people aren't upset about her "just surviving". He wasn't in the other thread to see this so I brought it to him
To make @Dex-Starr or @Ghetsis or whoever it was's point a tad clearer, they're pointing out that Clementine's continued survival and maintained status throughout the games while the vast majority of other characters end up being killed off and/or under-accomplished can start to wear thin on people's suspension of belief and/or willingness to care about the story.
Well said. I'm not asking for her to be killed off in an early episode or anything, the writers can implement it however the see fit, whether that be in the heart-wrenching finale or an unforseen twist or something else.
To make @Dex-Starr or @Ghetsis or whoever it was's point a tad clearer, they're pointing out that Clementine's continued survival and mainta… moreined status throughout the games while the vast majority of other characters end up being killed off and/or under-accomplished can start to wear thin on people's suspension of belief and/or willingness to care about the story.
We get it. Personally my suspension of belief went out the window when a bunch of slow dead people collapsed societies across the world, but we get it. One of the major criticisms of the series has always been it's handling of other characters, they've always been expendable while the characters central to the story(and Gabe) have been spared until the last episode of the season, further for some. I think a lot of people are still following it because they care about the character, that by default makes them care about the story.
To make @Dex-Starr or @Ghetsis or whoever it was's point a tad clearer, they're pointing out that Clementine's continued survival and mainta… moreined status throughout the games while the vast majority of other characters end up being killed off and/or under-accomplished can start to wear thin on people's suspension of belief and/or willingness to care about the story.
Oh, okay. I saw the arguments yesterday and meant to comment then, but didn't feel like it. So when I saw it was still apparently being discussed this morning, I actually did so.
We get it. Personally my suspension of belief went out the window when a bunch of slow dead people collapsed societies across the world, but… more we get it. One of the major criticisms of the series has always been it's handling of other characters, they've always been expendable while the characters central to the story(and Gabe) have been spared until the last episode of the season, further for some. I think a lot of people are still following it because they care about the character, that by default makes them care about the story.
We get it.
Oh, okay. I saw the arguments yesterday and meant to comment then, but didn't feel like it. So when I saw it was still apparently being discussed this morning, I actually did so.
Okay i'll start by saying that I don't hate clementine but I do have some issues with her, so i'm going to just jump right in with the fact that clementine played a large role in lees death in season 1 even though her fans on this forum try to deny it. Also the Fact that your forced into caring about clementine and taking care of her annoys me, I mean seriously you can spend pretty much the entirety of season 1 treating clementine like shit and still you have to save her ass from the stranger. That's why the hypocrisy on theses forums really surprises me not calling any names out but still, you guys are really surprised that clementine in season 2 is forced to care about Aj its been telltales formula since season 1.
clementine played a large role in lees death in season 1 even though her fans on this forum try to deny it.
Definitely. Had she not been so stupid as to run away with a stranger, Lee never would've went picking up her walkie that she dropped by the cardboard box the zombies was living in.
Also the Fact that your forced into caring about clementine and taking care of her annoys me, I mean seriously you can spend pretty much the entirety of season 1 treating clementine like shit and still you have to save her ass from the stranger.
It definitely is forced, but it felt natural to me. I think anyone would emotionally care for a little girl if they found one all by themself with_ no one to look after them_. AJ on the other hand had so many people that could've took care of him but they all died, so he was just dumped onto Clementine. If the choice was available, he'd be zombie food.
Okay i'll start by saying that I don't hate clementine but I do have some issues with her, so i'm going to just jump right in with the fact… more that clementine played a large role in lees death in season 1 even though her fans on this forum try to deny it. Also the Fact that your forced into caring about clementine and taking care of her annoys me, I mean seriously you can spend pretty much the entirety of season 1 treating clementine like shit and still you have to save her ass from the stranger. That's why the hypocrisy on theses forums really surprises me not calling any names out but still, you guys are really surprised that clementine in season 2 is forced to care about Aj its been telltales formula since season 1.
There is so much victim blaming here is is amazing.
Lee's Death...part of that is on Lee for not being truthful to Clementine and going back on his promise to look for her parents. If he had said...Clem...your parents are dead...there was a phone message and your dad was bit. As for her mom...Tell her that she wanted her to stay safe and alive.
Being forced to care for Clem....oh christ...then don't play the fucking game....just like we were forced to care for Ellie because Tess died...it is a fucking story.
Okay i'll start by saying that I don't hate clementine but I do have some issues with her, so i'm going to just jump right in with the fact… more that clementine played a large role in lees death in season 1 even though her fans on this forum try to deny it. Also the Fact that your forced into caring about clementine and taking care of her annoys me, I mean seriously you can spend pretty much the entirety of season 1 treating clementine like shit and still you have to save her ass from the stranger. That's why the hypocrisy on theses forums really surprises me not calling any names out but still, you guys are really surprised that clementine in season 2 is forced to care about Aj its been telltales formula since season 1.
wow sounds like someone is fucking triggered huh, how are you going to compare a game where your character is shaped by choices you as the player make to a game like the last of us. And victim blaming jeez , I feel like you just took a glance at my post without understanding it at all and just got your your panties in a twist. I mean who hell are you to tell someone not to play a game just because they don't like one aspect of it? Like don't fucking reply to me if your going to be a dick about my opinion.
There is so much victim blaming here is is amazing.
Lee's Death...part of that is on Lee for not being truthful to Clementine and going b… moreack on his promise to look for her parents. If he had said...Clem...your parents are dead...there was a phone message and your dad was bit. As for her mom...Tell her that she wanted her to stay safe and alive.
Being forced to care for Clem....oh christ...then don't play the fucking game....just like we were forced to care for Ellie because Tess died...it is a fucking story.
I like AJ
part of that is on Lee for not being truthful to Clementine and going back on his promise to look for her parents
Who in the right mind would tell a scared little girl, whose only chance of being happy again is to find her parents, that her parents are dead? They found themselves the boat, and before they take off, before more bullshit happens, you expect Lee to go looking for her parents????
Being forced to care for Clem....oh christ...then don't play the fucking game
I think he meant in the emotional sense, not actually looking after her and making sure she's alright.
There is so much victim blaming here is is amazing.
Lee's Death...part of that is on Lee for not being truthful to Clementine and going b… moreack on his promise to look for her parents. If he had said...Clem...your parents are dead...there was a phone message and your dad was bit. As for her mom...Tell her that she wanted her to stay safe and alive.
Being forced to care for Clem....oh christ...then don't play the fucking game....just like we were forced to care for Ellie because Tess died...it is a fucking story.
I like AJ
It also annoys me in both season 1 and 2 when the writers lapse into making her just act like a miniature adult.
That's part of why … morethey have characters like Duck and Ben around, isn't it?
Gotta make the "Greatest Child Character in Video Game History" standpoint" somehow.
It's difficult to say Clem was stupid for running after the stranger. Lee was still just a stranger to her, and, as an 8 year old, she was scared and really wanted her parents back, and of course she would still be naive at such young age.
clementine played a large role in lees death in season 1 even though her fans on this forum try to deny it.
Definitely. Had she not … morebeen so stupid as to run away with a stranger, Lee never would've went picking up her walkie that she dropped by the cardboard box the zombies was living in.
Also the Fact that your forced into caring about clementine and taking care of her annoys me, I mean seriously you can spend pretty much the entirety of season 1 treating clementine like shit and still you have to save her ass from the stranger.
It definitely is forced, but it felt natural to me. I think anyone would emotionally care for a little girl if they found one all by themself with_ no one to look after them_. AJ on the other hand had so many people that could've took care of him but they all died, so he was just dumped onto Clementine. If the choice was available, he'd be zombie food.
It's difficult to say Clem was stupid for running after the stranger. Lee was still just a stranger to her, and, as an 8 year old, she was scared and really wanted her parents back, and of course she would still be naive at such young age.
It's almost as if the writers wanted Clementine to have a moment in her life where she gets away with murdering someone simply because she didn't like them. I'm exaggerating, but still.
Precisely! and the fans still kiss her feet. I like Clem too but I never hesitated to admit when she's in the wrong. But being a main character lets you off the hook a bunch.
It was self-defense at that point.
Two wrongs don't make a right, sure, and he openly assumed Javier was there to muscle him for Clement… moreine-- but at that point, he had already had his life threatened(however emptily as it appeared) by someone he knew as being hostile and seemed to believed was trying to intimidate him into going back on their previous deal.
I still find it funny that I'm supposed to hate Eli over the 'faulty bullets' tale that turns out to be not entirely true, and that I'm supposed to believe that Eli is in the wrong to try and stab Clementine when she instigated the fight by pointing her gun at him and pulling the trigger.
It's almost as if the writers wanted Clementine to have a moment in her life where she gets away with murdering someone simply because she didn't like them. I'm exaggerating, but still.
It's almost as if the writers wanted Clementine to have a moment in her life where she gets away with murdering someone simply because she didn't like them
It was self-defense at that point.
Two wrongs don't make a right, sure, and he openly assumed Javier was there to muscle him for Clement… moreine-- but at that point, he had already had his life threatened(however emptily as it appeared) by someone he knew as being hostile and seemed to believed was trying to intimidate him into going back on their previous deal.
I still find it funny that I'm supposed to hate Eli over the 'faulty bullets' tale that turns out to be not entirely true, and that I'm supposed to believe that Eli is in the wrong to try and stab Clementine when she instigated the fight by pointing her gun at him and pulling the trigger.
It's almost as if the writers wanted Clementine to have a moment in her life where she gets away with murdering someone simply because she didn't like them. I'm exaggerating, but still.
She survives because of luck...not seen as a real threat so that she is underestimated.
Sure but after awhile especially several years in a dangerous apocalyptic wasteland your luck tends to run out fast like Jane said back in S2 and especially if alone. How is it this particular kid is so much more skilled, lucky and smarter than the other kids and adults that have died before her and most times in front of her? Nah if she doesn't at least loose a limb, ear, eye or life or something and comes out of season 4 unscathed yet again then it is past due to call bullshit on the writers although they have bigger story matters to solve on their hands. Plot armor will eventually become ridiculous and more than it already has. At this point I guess she'd be lucky enough to survive being run over unlike Conrad.
This is perhaps the damn stupidest thing ever posted on these forums. You basically take issue with her because she survives...that is like… more screaming at a concentration camp survivor because millions of others died in those camps.
She survives because of luck...not seen as a real threat so that she is underestimated.
S1 was all about keeping her alive...S2...the Cabin group was already in trouble when she got there. So yeah she survived and got a prize in the form of a screaming newborn....yay.
Now I am sure in this finale season there will be multiple endings...and you and people like Dick starr can kill her off. You probably yelled when Frodo lived as well.
She survives because of luck...not seen as a real threat so that she is underestimated.
Sure but after awhile especially several yea… morers in a dangerous apocalyptic wasteland your luck tends to run out fast like Jane said back in S2 and especially if alone. How is it this particular kid is so much more skilled, lucky and smarter than the other kids and adults that have died before her and most times in front of her? Nah if she doesn't at least loose a limb, ear, eye or life or something and comes out of season 4 unscathed yet again then it is past due to call bullshit on the writers although they have bigger story matters to solve on their hands. Plot armor will eventually become ridiculous and more than it already has. At this point I guess she'd be lucky enough to survive being run over unlike Conrad.
True but ya know Clem's armored plot shield is even stronger and Clem would easily survive that. That cap bib might be padded and reinforced with titanium steel somehow.
True but ya know Clem's armored plot shield is even stronger and Clem would easily survive that. That cap bib might be padded and reinforced with titanium steel somehow.
I don't hate her but i dislike how her presence in ANF makes people biased. A lot of people play to please her. I think TT wants to tell other stories not centered on Clem but realized that's not possible if she's still in them.
dislike how her presence in ANF makes people biased
That's one of the flaws of ANF. That's what happens when you make a character people have loved for the past two seasons a complete stranger to the new playable character.
I don't hate her but i dislike how her presence in ANF makes people biased. A lot of people play to please her. I think TT wants to tell other stories not centered on Clem but realized that's not possible if she's still in them.
"That's what i've been saying this whole time!!!" is what i'd say if I'd been actually saying that this whole time. All jokes aside, I feel the same way.
I don't hate her but i dislike how her presence in ANF makes people biased. A lot of people play to please her. I think TT wants to tell other stories not centered on Clem but realized that's not possible if she's still in them.
It's a really odd thing Telltale tried to pull off in ANF, they went out of their way to try and make Clementine seem like a bad person so you would actually consider betraying her. Unfortunately a lot of players connection with her isn't nearly as strong because of that.
All i'm saying is in a game where it is choice based you shouldn't be forced to care about one single character, for me it made the entire relationship between clementine and lee very forced .
part of that is on Lee for not being truthful to Clementine and going back on his promise to look for her parents
Who in the right m… moreind would tell a scared little girl, whose only chance of being happy again is to find her parents, that her parents are dead? They found themselves the boat, and before they take off, before more bullshit happens, you expect Lee to go looking for her parents????
Being forced to care for Clem....oh christ...then don't play the fucking game
I think he meant in the emotional sense, not actually looking after her and making sure she's alright.
I wouldn't say I'm anti-Clementine or that I have a particular hatred of her, but I'm certainly not as attached to her as most fans seem to be. In my opinion, Clementine's continuously suffered, character-wise, in most of the Walking Dead's installments due to inconsistent writing and certain setbacks. Those problems have long restricted me from formulating any great love for her.
The only season where I felt invested in the character was the first. Sure, she was still just a kid, but she represented something for us as Lee, a driving motivation, and was capable enough, within realism, to stir away from being a constant liability. She was likable since it felt the writers knew who and what they wanted her to be. She had a personality, had a role, and had an impact. She felt important, even if she was only about 8. That simply doesn't exist in the other games.
Season 2's biggest problem, for me, was the choice of having Clementine as the protagonist. She was still only 11- far too young to prove to be a captivating and complex character, and far too young to have any real impact with choices. The whole season is meant to be Clementine's story, like season 1 was Lee's, but it revolves solely around Kenny and later Jane. And since she's too young, she doesn't contribute heavily to the story (especially the latter half) and becomes a plot device for the aforementioned characters, merely an observer to their actions. When she does contribute, it ends up being silly and contrived- the scene with her being asked to fix the generator instead of the more capable adults or Carver, a tyrannical psychopath, telling a kid they're one and the same...The writers really restricted themselves by having her as the playable lead, and it took away from me any chance of taking Clementine seriously as her own character. Not to mention, she's bland as hell. Her voice is pure monotone and lifeless throughout, and Clementine lacks any personality traits at all.
A New Frontier's Clementine is of even less significance than season 2's. She's older now, so you'd expect an interesting personality would have formed, but nope, she's just an overly edgy Jane-esque idiot. Her only role to the game's minimal plot is a boring and rushed subplot, told through boring and rushed flashbacks, centered around the little basketball AJ. It isn't even concluded, becoming entirely forgotten because ultimately Clementine was but a glorified background character. She's only in the game to generate some fan hype. That's it. She has no role, little to no personality, and is completely pointless. It's near impossible to have any flippin' care for her when the writers, themselves, don't.
Of the 3 games Clementine has been in, I've found it difficult to like the character all that much, excluding one. It always seems to me like Telltale doesn't know how to use her and are only pumping her into the games because they know the fans love her. But popularity doesn't diminish the fact that the character's been plagued with awful and indecisive writing choices, and has yet to come into her own as an interesting or relatable character.
But hey, maybe she'll be better in the final season. I hope she is anyway. It is her LAST season, for fuck's sakes.
Well, I mean yeah but behavior can be interpreted by the voice actor, right? They can say lines a certain way. See what I'm getting at?
In season 2 you have clem be monotone and adult one scene, and then act like a kid the next
Well, I mean yeah but behavior can be interpreted by the voice actor, right? They can say lines a certain way. See what I'm getting at?
In season 2 you have clem be monotone and adult one scene, and then act like a kid the next
Comments
Thenks dud!
To make @Dex-Starr or @Ghetsis or whoever it was's point a tad clearer, they're pointing out that Clementine's continued survival and maintained status throughout the games while the vast majority of other characters end up being killed off and/or under-accomplished can start to wear thin on people's suspension of belief and/or willingness to care about the story.
Well said. I'm not asking for her to be killed off in an early episode or anything, the writers can implement it however the see fit, whether that be in the heart-wrenching finale or an unforseen twist or something else.
We get it. Personally my suspension of belief went out the window when a bunch of slow dead people collapsed societies across the world, but we get it. One of the major criticisms of the series has always been it's handling of other characters, they've always been expendable while the characters central to the story(and Gabe) have been spared until the last episode of the season, further for some. I think a lot of people are still following it because they care about the character, that by default makes them care about the story.
Oh, okay. I saw the arguments yesterday and meant to comment then, but didn't feel like it. So when I saw it was still apparently being discussed this morning, I actually did so.
aw, was hoping this would be about, like, an evil clone of Clem or something
Nothing about the premise being built on our inability to account for the dead? You let the hood down, Dabig.
...What?
Random bodies getting up and being able to crush society. Pay attention, man.
Oh. I did say suspension of disbelief, didn't I? Huh.
Aw well, their point is their's.
None of this addresses the story. Damnit, Dabig
Javier: “Ay dios mío, do you ever shut up?”.
Tripp: “Sometimes...”. ?
Aye yo miosn, you ever shut up?
Fuck are you trying to say, uncle Javie"!"
Okay i'll start by saying that I don't hate clementine but I do have some issues with her, so i'm going to just jump right in with the fact that clementine played a large role in lees death in season 1 even though her fans on this forum try to deny it. Also the Fact that your forced into caring about clementine and taking care of her annoys me, I mean seriously you can spend pretty much the entirety of season 1 treating clementine like shit and still you have to save her ass from the stranger. That's why the hypocrisy on theses forums really surprises me not calling any names out but still, you guys are really surprised that clementine in season 2 is forced to care about Aj its been telltales formula since season 1.
Definitely. Had she not been so stupid as to run away with a stranger, Lee never would've went picking up her walkie that she dropped by the cardboard box the zombies was living in.
It definitely is forced, but it felt natural to me. I think anyone would emotionally care for a little girl if they found one all by themself with_ no one to look after them_. AJ on the other hand had so many people that could've took care of him but they all died, so he was just dumped onto Clementine. If the choice was available, he'd be zombie food.
There is so much victim blaming here is is amazing.
Lee's Death...part of that is on Lee for not being truthful to Clementine and going back on his promise to look for her parents. If he had said...Clem...your parents are dead...there was a phone message and your dad was bit. As for her mom...Tell her that she wanted her to stay safe and alive.
Being forced to care for Clem....oh christ...then don't play the fucking game....just like we were forced to care for Ellie because Tess died...it is a fucking story.
I like AJ
wow sounds like someone is fucking triggered huh, how are you going to compare a game where your character is shaped by choices you as the player make to a game like the last of us. And victim blaming jeez , I feel like you just took a glance at my post without understanding it at all and just got your your panties in a twist. I mean who hell are you to tell someone not to play a game just because they don't like one aspect of it? Like don't fucking reply to me if your going to be a dick about my opinion.
Who in the right mind would tell a scared little girl, whose only chance of being happy again is to find her parents, that her parents are dead? They found themselves the boat, and before they take off, before more bullshit happens, you expect Lee to go looking for her parents????
I think he meant in the emotional sense, not actually looking after her and making sure she's alright.
Actually it might be more the fault of the voice director or whatever. Some lines melissa does sound right, some sound too old and world weary.
It's difficult to say Clem was stupid for running after the stranger. Lee was still just a stranger to her, and, as an 8 year old, she was scared and really wanted her parents back, and of course she would still be naive at such young age.
True. He should've left her ass with the stranger once he got bit.
I suppose?
I thought this was more about her behavior.
Agreed..
Precisely! and the fans still kiss her feet. I like Clem too but I never hesitated to admit when she's in the wrong. But being a main character lets you off the hook a bunch.
If only she had done that more.
Sure but after awhile especially several years in a dangerous apocalyptic wasteland your luck tends to run out fast like Jane said back in S2 and especially if alone. How is it this particular kid is so much more skilled, lucky and smarter than the other kids and adults that have died before her and most times in front of her? Nah if she doesn't at least loose a limb, ear, eye or life or something and comes out of season 4 unscathed yet again then it is past due to call bullshit on the writers although they have bigger story matters to solve on their hands. Plot armor will eventually become ridiculous and more than it already has. At this point I guess she'd be lucky enough to survive being run over unlike Conrad.
To be fair, Conrad took an armored truck bumper to the head.
True but ya know Clem's armored plot shield is even stronger and Clem would easily survive that. That cap bib might be padded and reinforced with titanium steel somehow.
K'yeah, probably.
I don't hate her but i dislike how her presence in ANF makes people biased. A lot of people play to please her. I think TT wants to tell other stories not centered on Clem but realized that's not possible if she's still in them.
That's one of the flaws of ANF. That's what happens when you make a character people have loved for the past two seasons a complete stranger to the new playable character.
"That's what i've been saying this whole time!!!" is what i'd say if I'd been actually saying that this whole time. All jokes aside, I feel the same way.
It's a really odd thing Telltale tried to pull off in ANF, they went out of their way to try and make Clementine seem like a bad person so you would actually consider betraying her. Unfortunately a lot of players connection with her isn't nearly as strong because of that.
Yup, I hope TFS can fix that
All i'm saying is in a game where it is choice based you shouldn't be forced to care about one single character, for me it made the entire relationship between clementine and lee very forced .
Holy shit, this!
I wouldn't say I'm anti-Clementine or that I have a particular hatred of her, but I'm certainly not as attached to her as most fans seem to be. In my opinion, Clementine's continuously suffered, character-wise, in most of the Walking Dead's installments due to inconsistent writing and certain setbacks. Those problems have long restricted me from formulating any great love for her.
The only season where I felt invested in the character was the first. Sure, she was still just a kid, but she represented something for us as Lee, a driving motivation, and was capable enough, within realism, to stir away from being a constant liability. She was likable since it felt the writers knew who and what they wanted her to be. She had a personality, had a role, and had an impact. She felt important, even if she was only about 8. That simply doesn't exist in the other games.
Season 2's biggest problem, for me, was the choice of having Clementine as the protagonist. She was still only 11- far too young to prove to be a captivating and complex character, and far too young to have any real impact with choices. The whole season is meant to be Clementine's story, like season 1 was Lee's, but it revolves solely around Kenny and later Jane. And since she's too young, she doesn't contribute heavily to the story (especially the latter half) and becomes a plot device for the aforementioned characters, merely an observer to their actions. When she does contribute, it ends up being silly and contrived- the scene with her being asked to fix the generator instead of the more capable adults or Carver, a tyrannical psychopath, telling a kid they're one and the same...The writers really restricted themselves by having her as the playable lead, and it took away from me any chance of taking Clementine seriously as her own character. Not to mention, she's bland as hell. Her voice is pure monotone and lifeless throughout, and Clementine lacks any personality traits at all.
A New Frontier's Clementine is of even less significance than season 2's. She's older now, so you'd expect an interesting personality would have formed, but nope, she's just an overly edgy Jane-esque idiot. Her only role to the game's minimal plot is a boring and rushed subplot, told through boring and rushed flashbacks, centered around the little basketball AJ. It isn't even concluded, becoming entirely forgotten because ultimately Clementine was but a glorified background character. She's only in the game to generate some fan hype. That's it. She has no role, little to no personality, and is completely pointless. It's near impossible to have any flippin' care for her when the writers, themselves, don't.
Of the 3 games Clementine has been in, I've found it difficult to like the character all that much, excluding one. It always seems to me like Telltale doesn't know how to use her and are only pumping her into the games because they know the fans love her. But popularity doesn't diminish the fact that the character's been plagued with awful and indecisive writing choices, and has yet to come into her own as an interesting or relatable character.
But hey, maybe she'll be better in the final season. I hope she is anyway. It is her LAST season, for fuck's sakes.
Well, I mean yeah but behavior can be interpreted by the voice actor, right? They can say lines a certain way. See what I'm getting at?
In season 2 you have clem be monotone and adult one scene, and then act like a kid the next
Yeah, that's true.
Also, why didn't this register as a new comment?
I don't know....