I think it was general mistrust because, as he mentions at the beginning of episode 5, she was indirectly responsible for causing Arvo's group to attack them... or at least that's how Kenny himself sees the situation. Then there's the fact that she decided to leave the group in a time when they arguably needed her, and acted a bit weird in episode 4 overall; constantly trying to go off on her own, being seemingly hesitant about Rebecca's baby, and so forth. Those all act as red flags to Kenny, so he starts getting more and more suspicious about Jane and her motives. Then as the episode goes on, he just keeps building her up in his head as an untrustworthy person; someone who may very well be a potential threat, even. And when he can't find AJ at the rest stop, he immediately draws the conclusion that, based on Jane's previous behavior, she most likely abandoned AJ on purpose, which causes him to finally snap and attempt to kill her.
I think a thing to keep in mind here is that you need to try to look at things from Kenny's perspective. There's no denying that he... doesn't exactly see things the same way that other people do, especially given his questionable mental state throughout S2. I think Sarita's death in particular kicked him into a super protective mode, where anything or anyone that looked at Clementine or the rest of the group funny was an enemy, no exceptions.
Kenny was going crazy and it didn't matter that it was Jane, had anyone hid the baby and acted like it was dead he'd of tried to kill them. I think he had some legitimate reasons to mistrust Jane, just as Jane had legitimate reasons to be wary of him. I think why they switched it from being Luke is because no way Luke hides a baby and claims it got killed by zombies just to prove a point. Luke would've never endangered a child like that. It'd be OOC.
Jane was capable of it because she cared more about Clem then AJ. Clem was to be her new sister, but one that'd actually manage to survive and could cope with the world.
I prefer Kenny end though, he seemed to gain his sanity back by the flashbacks of season 3. I also loved just how important it was for him to get Clem and AJ into Wellington, it was a sweet moment. Oddly all the horrific moments he had before added to it, because it was almost like a man who'd lost his way begging for redemption and just trying to do at least one thing right.
Jane's end of season 3 didn't rly surprise me. She'd alrdy had Clem and AJ to take care of and they'd lost all their supplies. She's kind of selfish and I can see her being the type of person 'no way am I raising another kid in the apocalypse.' I also didn't rly get the impression she ever wanted AJ. I think she just knew that Clem and AJ were a package deal and she cared enough about Clem to deal with it.
Not being funny but could you tell me exactly how Kenny was “losing his mind”? If you are referring to the scene with Jane, thats not losing your mind, he reacted how any father would if their son had been taken away (i know AJ wasn’t his son but he saw him as a second chance).
Ah yes, the long awaited thread I've been searching for since I first joined this community. To be honest, He was losing his mind after Sarita died, and he needed someone to take his anger out on.
It always should have been Kenny vs Luke.
Kenny- Survival at any cost humanity is weakness
Luke- if we're not living why bother surviving.… more
Pragmatism vs Compassion.
Instead it came down to Which is more important Clementine or AJ
Kenny saw AJ as duck two. So Clementine could go die for all he cared.
Jane saw Clementine as a potential replacement little sister( or more) and AJ as a burden
And ultimately neither mattered.
Kenny went off the deep end by the last episode of Season 2. It’s not hard to conceive of a scenario where Luke might need to kill Kenny out of self-defense.
Kenny saw AJ as duck two. So Clementine could go die for all he cared.
Ohhhhh boy... this is sooooo wrong in sooooo many levels. Like have you not seen the Wellington ending?
Because they changed the confrontation of luke and Kenny to Jane and Kenny late in the season...from the table scene in ep 2 it was hinted that there's beef but people figured it out early so TT decided to change the ending...that's the only explanation that makes sense in my mind.
Yeah because he had reason to believe Jane was lying and in a funny way he was right. He was wrong about the outcome but right that Jane’s claim about it being an accident was bullshit.
But anyone can lose baby in a damn zombie apocalypse blizzard by accident. And Kenny would be still be a raging dumbass lunatic.
Replac… moreing Luke in that scenario wouldn't be hard. The last act of episode 5 is not really about Jane, it's about Kenny.
In a way, Luke hiding AJ and refusing to tell Kenny where he is even when Kenny is clearly about to kill him over it makes a little more sense for how the situation goes down than with Jane, who really would be expected to have outright kill him and/or let him die.
I have slight reason to doubt that was the exact reason, as Misters Petty and Stirpe were clearly directed to write(and advertise) Amid the Ruins in a way that sets the stage for the final conflict between Luke and Kenny, even with Jane's sudden spotlight hogging being the main focus.
Interestingly enough, there's even an old text image further suggesting that No Going Back was initially being programmed along the premise of siding with either Luke or Kenny throughout the episode, with a note at the bottom mentioning Jane was being considered for further development.
Because they changed the confrontation of luke and Kenny to Jane and Kenny late in the season...from the table scene in ep 2 it was hinted t… morehat there's beef but people figured it out early so TT decided to change the ending...that's the only explanation that makes sense in my mind.
Simple, they didn't have Kenny vs Jane planned until e5 and maybe e4 so thats why. They probably wanted to have a Kenny and Luke fight but it got cut for obvious reasons.
Beating Carver’s face in long after he was dead, beating a walker long after it was dead, Beating up Arvo at extremely unnecessary moments, arguing with almost everyone in the group
Not being funny but could you tell me exactly how Kenny was “losing his mind”? If you are referring to the scene with Jane, thats not losing… more your mind, he reacted how any father would if their son had been taken away (i know AJ wasn’t his son but he saw him as a second chance).
He bashed his eye in and he hated Carver for what happened, he was taking his frustration out on him. Doesn’t mean he was losing his mind.
beating a walker long after it was dead,
Again getting his frustration out on something doesn’t mean you have “lost your mind”
Beating up Arvo at extremely unnecessary moments
I wouldn’t say they were unnecessary:
Arvo and his group tried to kill him and everyone else. Naturally you aren’t going to take that lightly.
In the woods Arvo continued walking when Kenny asked him to stop, he only shoved him to the ground.
At the power station Kenny determinantely knocks Arvo out because the idiot was screaming his head off because Mike was trying to talk to him. That was necessary to shut him up.
At the half built building Arvo provoked him by saying “Fuck you”. Yeah you could say Kenny went overboard beating him but quite frankly it goes back to what i said before, Arvo was part of the group trying to rob and kill them and Kenny blames him for Luke’s death. I don’t think that’s losing your mind.
arguing with almost everyone in the group
How is this “losing your mind”?? Because he argued back disagreeing with them?
The scene in Wellington proves he hadn’t lost his mind anyway.
Beating Carver’s face in long after he was dead, beating a walker long after it was dead, Beating up Arvo at extremely unnecessary moments, arguing with almost everyone in the group
Beating Carver’s face in long after he was dead
He bashed his eye in and he hated Carver for what happened, he was taking his frustr… moreation out on him. Doesn’t mean he was losing his mind.
beating a walker long after it was dead,
Again getting his frustration out on something doesn’t mean you have “lost your mind”
Beating up Arvo at extremely unnecessary moments
I wouldn’t say they were unnecessary:
* Arvo and his group tried to kill him and everyone else. Naturally you aren’t going to take that lightly.
* In the woods Arvo continued walking when Kenny asked him to stop, he only shoved him to the ground.
* At the power station Kenny determinantely knocks Arvo out because the idiot was screaming his head off because Mike was trying to talk to him. That was necessary to shut him up.
* At the half built building Arvo provoked him by saying “Fuck you”. Yeah you could say Kenny went overboard beating… [view original content]
If he was already dead, what else is there to kill? That's crazy to me.
Well put yourself in Kenny’s shoes rather than just viewing him like that. Carver made him blind in one eye, said some pretty horrible things to Kenny leading up to Carver’s death, not to mention Kenny being held prisoner. Kenny was taking his frustration out on Carver. If you hate someone enough you probably would do something like that. I wouldn’t view it as crazy. Don’t forget that this is a zombie apocalypse, not every day life where this sort of thing is deemed like you believe.
They had more important things to worry about yet there he was, beating up a dead walker. I still think that's crazy
The others were evacuating the area they were in whilst Kenny kept them busy. Either way, it doesn’t matter, taking your anger out on someone or something doesn’t make you crazy. Screaming into your pillow and punching a wall when you are angry doesn’t make you crazy. Just giving you another point of view that’s all
He bashed his eye in and he hated Carver for what happened, he was taking his frustration out on him. Doesn’t mean he was losing his mind.
… more
If he was already dead, what else is there to kill? That's crazy to me.
Again getting his frustration out on something doesn’t mean you have “lost your mind”
They had more important things to worry about yet there he was, beating up a dead walker. I still think that's crazy
Let's not forget as a widower who loved his wife. Carver who got Alvin killed saying to Rebecca " What are you looking at Bitch Don't act like you didn't enjoy every minute of it" probably wasn't the best choice of words on his part
By the end Kenny had gone feral.
But Carver deserved what he got
If he was already dead, what else is there to kill? That's crazy to me.
Well put yourself in Kenny’s shoes rather than just viewing … morehim like that. Carver made him blind in one eye, said some pretty horrible things to Kenny leading up to Carver’s death, not to mention Kenny being held prisoner. Kenny was taking his frustration out on Carver. If you hate someone enough you probably would do something like that. I wouldn’t view it as crazy. Don’t forget that this is a zombie apocalypse, not every day life where this sort of thing is deemed like you believe.
They had more important things to worry about yet there he was, beating up a dead walker. I still think that's crazy
The others were evacuating the area they were in whilst Kenny kept them busy. Either way, it doesn’t matter, taking your anger out on someone or something doesn’t make you crazy. Screaming into your pillow and punching a wall when you are angry doesn’t make you crazy. Just giving you another point of view that’s all
If he was already dead, what else is there to kill? That's crazy to me.
Well put yourself in Kenny’s shoes rather than just viewing … morehim like that. Carver made him blind in one eye, said some pretty horrible things to Kenny leading up to Carver’s death, not to mention Kenny being held prisoner. Kenny was taking his frustration out on Carver. If you hate someone enough you probably would do something like that. I wouldn’t view it as crazy. Don’t forget that this is a zombie apocalypse, not every day life where this sort of thing is deemed like you believe.
They had more important things to worry about yet there he was, beating up a dead walker. I still think that's crazy
The others were evacuating the area they were in whilst Kenny kept them busy. Either way, it doesn’t matter, taking your anger out on someone or something doesn’t make you crazy. Screaming into your pillow and punching a wall when you are angry doesn’t make you crazy. Just giving you another point of view that’s all
There were barely any walkers there when he was holding them off. And he was only still beating on that already dead walker
Barely any walkers? There was a horde not too far behind coming towards the group, if anything, regardless of him beating one walker, he stalled them enough for the group to get a head start. Don’t forget that it was Luke’s fault in the first place because he wasn’t keeping an eye out for them but thats beside the point anyway.
There is a difference between being crazy and being angry. Remember that for the future
There were barely any walkers there when he was holding them off. And he was only still beating on that already dead walker
Barely a… moreny walkers? There was a horde not too far behind coming towards the group, if anything, regardless of him beating one walker, he stalled them enough for the group to get a head start. Don’t forget that it was Luke’s fault in the first place because he wasn’t keeping an eye out for them but thats beside the point anyway.
There is a difference between being crazy and being angry. Remember that for the future
There were barely any walkers there when he was holding them off. And he was only still beating on that already dead walker
Barely a… moreny walkers? There was a horde not too far behind coming towards the group, if anything, regardless of him beating one walker, he stalled them enough for the group to get a head start. Don’t forget that it was Luke’s fault in the first place because he wasn’t keeping an eye out for them but thats beside the point anyway.
There is a difference between being crazy and being angry. Remember that for the future
See I always found that laughable that it creeped people out. To me that shows how caring and protective he is for the kid. He was a dad after all. The others wouldn’t understand that due to not being parents themselves. And i really don’t label him insane. An insane or psychotic person wouldn’t have a conscience yet we know Kenny does. There is a difference
Doesn't really matter. The only constant here is Kenny was too far gone at that point, and if it wasn't hiding AJ to prove a point, it would've been something else that sent him into a frenzy.
amen. i have her hanging herself as my desktop wallpaper. the only good thing about ANF.
killing herself and a new life... what a piece of shit. add letting her sister die cause she was weak. and more negligible things im trying to forget.
At the end, you only care about yourself as would say a crazy man
You know, I rarely truly consider that with most things given the fact that better storytelling over all can make almost anything work, but you're technically right: the whopping majority of what Jane really did was either perfectly doable/fitting for another character and/or conveniently made so only she could be in place to do it.
There were so many better ways for her to die in order to leave Clementine alone. They didn't even have to be noble like Kenny whoever made that decision is a Kenny ass kissing coprophage.
amen. i have her hanging herself as my desktop wallpaper. the only good thing about ANF.
killing herself and a new life... what a piece of … moreshit. add letting her sister die cause she was weak. and more negligible things im trying to forget.
At the end, you only care about yourself as would say a crazy man
Jane tactfully used AJ as a second wake-up call after Carver so that Clementine was able to finally realise how much of a reckless man Kenny became. All of the other characters noticed this if you recall resulting in Mike, Bonnie and Arvo's departure. The last string of hope for Kenny to feel emotionally attached to was with AJ and Clementine, so that is why Jane purposefully staged the incident. In the story generator, you will hear Clementine say that it was the ''last straw'' for Kenny because if you excuse the pun, there was 'no going back'. I know that some individuals believe that Jane was wrong and manipulative, but Kenny was a difficult character who always judged other characters' flaws and never reflected on his own issues. Jane taught Clementine how to survive as a 'big sister' without being brutal like Kenny and that is why I chose to forgave her at the end of Season Two.
There were so many better ways for her to die in order to leave Clementine alone. They didn't even have to be noble like Kenny whoever made that decision is a Kenny ass kissing coprophage.
Honestly, even I fully expected them to have the three to get seriously flanked by a herd and for Jane to get Clementine and AJ to leave and/or piss off for their good.
There were so many better ways for her to die in order to leave Clementine alone. They didn't even have to be noble like Kenny whoever made that decision is a Kenny ass kissing coprophage.
Um... you have to carry babies a certain way, he would've been shielded by Jane's body so any zombie would've had to gone through her to get to that baby. So I can't see how that'd happen unless, like Kenny believed, she abandoned him to give herself time to escape. She knew when she did it that'd be his conclusion.
But anyone can lose baby in a damn zombie apocalypse blizzard by accident. And Kenny would be still be a raging dumbass lunatic.
Replac… moreing Luke in that scenario wouldn't be hard. The last act of episode 5 is not really about Jane, it's about Kenny.
Season 3/ANF debunks what you said to be fair. I disagree. He was living a perfectly happy life with Clem and AJ through those flashbacks we saw. Why? Because Kenny wasn’t around people like Jane who had sociopathic tendencies to fuck with someone’s emotions to make them angry. Another example, Arvo and his group tried to kill him and everyone else including the baby he was trying to protect, that was a large part of why Kenny treated Arvo the way he did.
So no i don’t think something else would have set him off unless someone was a threat to him or his family (Clem/AJ)
Doesn't really matter. The only constant here is Kenny was too far gone at that point, and if it wasn't hiding AJ to prove a point, it would've been something else that sent him into a frenzy.
Comments
If it moved, Kenny was angry at it.
I think it was general mistrust because, as he mentions at the beginning of episode 5, she was indirectly responsible for causing Arvo's group to attack them... or at least that's how Kenny himself sees the situation. Then there's the fact that she decided to leave the group in a time when they arguably needed her, and acted a bit weird in episode 4 overall; constantly trying to go off on her own, being seemingly hesitant about Rebecca's baby, and so forth. Those all act as red flags to Kenny, so he starts getting more and more suspicious about Jane and her motives. Then as the episode goes on, he just keeps building her up in his head as an untrustworthy person; someone who may very well be a potential threat, even. And when he can't find AJ at the rest stop, he immediately draws the conclusion that, based on Jane's previous behavior, she most likely abandoned AJ on purpose, which causes him to finally snap and attempt to kill her.
I think a thing to keep in mind here is that you need to try to look at things from Kenny's perspective. There's no denying that he... doesn't exactly see things the same way that other people do, especially given his questionable mental state throughout S2. I think Sarita's death in particular kicked him into a super protective mode, where anything or anyone that looked at Clementine or the rest of the group funny was an enemy, no exceptions.
Kenny was going crazy and it didn't matter that it was Jane, had anyone hid the baby and acted like it was dead he'd of tried to kill them. I think he had some legitimate reasons to mistrust Jane, just as Jane had legitimate reasons to be wary of him. I think why they switched it from being Luke is because no way Luke hides a baby and claims it got killed by zombies just to prove a point. Luke would've never endangered a child like that. It'd be OOC.
Jane was capable of it because she cared more about Clem then AJ. Clem was to be her new sister, but one that'd actually manage to survive and could cope with the world.
I prefer Kenny end though, he seemed to gain his sanity back by the flashbacks of season 3. I also loved just how important it was for him to get Clem and AJ into Wellington, it was a sweet moment. Oddly all the horrific moments he had before added to it, because it was almost like a man who'd lost his way begging for redemption and just trying to do at least one thing right.
Jane's end of season 3 didn't rly surprise me. She'd alrdy had Clem and AJ to take care of and they'd lost all their supplies. She's kind of selfish and I can see her being the type of person 'no way am I raising another kid in the apocalypse.' I also didn't rly get the impression she ever wanted AJ. I think she just knew that Clem and AJ were a package deal and she cared enough about Clem to deal with it.
I miss that grumpy old fart.
Not being funny but could you tell me exactly how Kenny was “losing his mind”? If you are referring to the scene with Jane, thats not losing your mind, he reacted how any father would if their son had been taken away (i know AJ wasn’t his son but he saw him as a second chance).
Kenny cared about Clementine though so that isn’t true that he wouldn’t have cared
But Luke wouldn’t fake a baby’s death to prove a point. That’s the difference. Completely different character to Jane
Well no because they are just as bad as Kenny fans
Thank you!
Because they changed the confrontation of luke and Kenny to Jane and Kenny late in the season...from the table scene in ep 2 it was hinted that there's beef but people figured it out early so TT decided to change the ending...that's the only explanation that makes sense in my mind.
But anyone can lose baby in a damn zombie apocalypse blizzard by accident. And Kenny would be still be a raging dumbass lunatic.
Replacing Luke in that scenario wouldn't be hard. The last act of episode 5 is not really about Jane, it's about Kenny.
Yeah because he had reason to believe Jane was lying and in a funny way he was right. He was wrong about the outcome but right that Jane’s claim about it being an accident was bullshit.
In a way, Luke hiding AJ and refusing to tell Kenny where he is even when Kenny is clearly about to kill him over it makes a little more sense for how the situation goes down than with Jane, who really would be expected to have outright kill him and/or let him die.
Not anymore anyway.
I have slight reason to doubt that was the exact reason, as Misters Petty and Stirpe were clearly directed to write(and advertise) Amid the Ruins in a way that sets the stage for the final conflict between Luke and Kenny, even with Jane's sudden spotlight hogging being the main focus.
Interestingly enough, there's even an old text image further suggesting that No Going Back was initially being programmed along the premise of siding with either Luke or Kenny throughout the episode, with a note at the bottom mentioning Jane was being considered for further development.
Sorry to be thick. But what are the obvious reasons?
If they'd planned it before killing Luke off, I don't see what stopped them and why they killed him off early.
I think it would have been a better way to end it, choosing between Kenny and Luke.
He was a miserable piece of shit. He wasn’t bad ro have around when he wasn’t driving others insane.
Aye, that he was.
Beating Carver’s face in long after he was dead, beating a walker long after it was dead, Beating up Arvo at extremely unnecessary moments, arguing with almost everyone in the group
He bashed his eye in and he hated Carver for what happened, he was taking his frustration out on him. Doesn’t mean he was losing his mind.
Again getting his frustration out on something doesn’t mean you have “lost your mind”
I wouldn’t say they were unnecessary:
Arvo and his group tried to kill him and everyone else. Naturally you aren’t going to take that lightly.
In the woods Arvo continued walking when Kenny asked him to stop, he only shoved him to the ground.
At the power station Kenny determinantely knocks Arvo out because the idiot was screaming his head off because Mike was trying to talk to him. That was necessary to shut him up.
At the half built building Arvo provoked him by saying “Fuck you”. Yeah you could say Kenny went overboard beating him but quite frankly it goes back to what i said before, Arvo was part of the group trying to rob and kill them and Kenny blames him for Luke’s death. I don’t think that’s losing your mind.
How is this “losing your mind”?? Because he argued back disagreeing with them?
The scene in Wellington proves he hadn’t lost his mind anyway.
If he was already dead, what else is there to kill? That's crazy to me.
They had more important things to worry about yet there he was, beating up a dead walker. I still think that's crazy
Well put yourself in Kenny’s shoes rather than just viewing him like that. Carver made him blind in one eye, said some pretty horrible things to Kenny leading up to Carver’s death, not to mention Kenny being held prisoner. Kenny was taking his frustration out on Carver. If you hate someone enough you probably would do something like that. I wouldn’t view it as crazy. Don’t forget that this is a zombie apocalypse, not every day life where this sort of thing is deemed like you believe.
The others were evacuating the area they were in whilst Kenny kept them busy. Either way, it doesn’t matter, taking your anger out on someone or something doesn’t make you crazy. Screaming into your pillow and punching a wall when you are angry doesn’t make you crazy. Just giving you another point of view that’s all
Let's not forget as a widower who loved his wife. Carver who got Alvin killed saying to Rebecca " What are you looking at Bitch Don't act like you didn't enjoy every minute of it" probably wasn't the best choice of words on his part
By the end Kenny had gone feral.
But Carver deserved what he got
There were barely any walkers there when he was holding them off. And he was only still beating on that already dead walker.
Barely any walkers? There was a horde not too far behind coming towards the group, if anything, regardless of him beating one walker, he stalled them enough for the group to get a head start. Don’t forget that it was Luke’s fault in the first place because he wasn’t keeping an eye out for them but thats beside the point anyway.
There is a difference between being crazy and being angry. Remember that for the future
By the end Kenny was a mad dog. His obsession with AJ creeped everyone out. Clem was trapped between Insane Kenny and stupid Jane
The line between crazy and angry is damn near invisible for Kenny
See I always found that laughable that it creeped people out. To me that shows how caring and protective he is for the kid. He was a dad after all. The others wouldn’t understand that due to not being parents themselves. And i really don’t label him insane. An insane or psychotic person wouldn’t have a conscience yet we know Kenny does. There is a difference
If you say so
Doesn't really matter. The only constant here is Kenny was too far gone at that point, and if it wasn't hiding AJ to prove a point, it would've been something else that sent him into a frenzy.
Because Jane replaced Luke's development. She never should have existed.
amen. i have her hanging herself as my desktop wallpaper. the only good thing about ANF.
killing herself and a new life... what a piece of shit. add letting her sister die cause she was weak. and more negligible things im trying to forget.
At the end, you only care about yourself as would say a crazy man
You know, I rarely truly consider that with most things given the fact that better storytelling over all can make almost anything work, but you're technically right: the whopping majority of what Jane really did was either perfectly doable/fitting for another character and/or conveniently made so only she could be in place to do it.
There were so many better ways for her to die in order to leave Clementine alone. They didn't even have to be noble like Kenny whoever made that decision is a Kenny ass kissing coprophage.
Jane tactfully used AJ as a second wake-up call after Carver so that Clementine was able to finally realise how much of a reckless man Kenny became. All of the other characters noticed this if you recall resulting in Mike, Bonnie and Arvo's departure. The last string of hope for Kenny to feel emotionally attached to was with AJ and Clementine, so that is why Jane purposefully staged the incident. In the story generator, you will hear Clementine say that it was the ''last straw'' for Kenny because if you excuse the pun, there was 'no going back'. I know that some individuals believe that Jane was wrong and manipulative, but Kenny was a difficult character who always judged other characters' flaws and never reflected on his own issues. Jane taught Clementine how to survive as a 'big sister' without being brutal like Kenny and that is why I chose to forgave her at the end of Season Two.
Kenny's ass is devine.
Honestly, even I fully expected them to have the three to get seriously flanked by a herd and for Jane to get Clementine and AJ to leave and/or piss off for their good.
Um... you have to carry babies a certain way, he would've been shielded by Jane's body so any zombie would've had to gone through her to get to that baby. So I can't see how that'd happen unless, like Kenny believed, she abandoned him to give herself time to escape. She knew when she did it that'd be his conclusion.
Season 3/ANF debunks what you said to be fair. I disagree. He was living a perfectly happy life with Clem and AJ through those flashbacks we saw. Why? Because Kenny wasn’t around people like Jane who had sociopathic tendencies to fuck with someone’s emotions to make them angry. Another example, Arvo and his group tried to kill him and everyone else including the baby he was trying to protect, that was a large part of why Kenny treated Arvo the way he did.
So no i don’t think something else would have set him off unless someone was a threat to him or his family (Clem/AJ)
** cough cough **