No, not really.
Pushing aside acknowledging some of the meta-elements or "politics" for the sake of a quick post, Lilith was ultimately underwhelming because they took not just a pre-established character, but easily one of the complexly developed in the series and threw her into the villain role just to have her barely check off a list and fall into the same old routines previous villains did.
Not poorly written per se, but there was some missed potential there. I don't believe that Lily being in a villain role is as unbelievable as some of the people in these forums make it out to be considering how she wasn't exactly a saint in the first season either, however it would've been interesting to gain some understanding on how she got to that point.
I liked Lilly as a villain, but they could've done more with her.
I mean she already went on a dark path when Kenny killed her father and when she shot Carley/Doug. 7 years in the apocalypse enough for someone to turn psycho, so it's definitely possible. Honestly, I'm still on the fence on whether we should have had backstory or not. Because like I said, we already know she started losing it in season 1.
Not poorly written per se, but there was some missed potential there. I don't believe that Lily being in a villain role is as unbelievable a… mores some of the people in these forums make it out to be considering how she wasn't exactly a saint in the first season either, however it would've been interesting to gain some understanding on how she got to that point.
I liked Lilly as a villain, but they could've done more with her.
Yeah, I'd also say that she's not poorly written but there is probably missed potential. There isn't really enough to say she's poorly written one way or another. She gets a tiny, tiny role and it isn't really one that's developed. Almost everything that's there makes sense to me but the fact that it's Lily is a distraction because, as players, we have history there. More so than the characters themselves given that Lily and Clem have such an age difference and they barely interacted in season 1 and then there were so many years and things that happened in between - probably far more life experiences than we lived through in the same period.
So maybe what I'm thinking is that she wasn't poorly written but maybe poorly placed. That maybe she should have been left out unless that reunion really defined something for both characters. As it is, I don't feel that happened. Lily could have been anyone else.
Lilly was technically a villian before TFS. She killed Carley/Doug. Plus, she leaves Lee for dead if you don't save Larry. And she was willing to throw a kid outside to be eaten. She wasn't a real nice person at any point. Lilly was already a bad person, she just became more true to her nature over the course of the series.
No, not really.
Pushing aside acknowledging some of the meta-elements or "politics" for the sake of a quick post, Lilith was ultimately und… moreerwhelming because they took not just a pre-established character, but easily one of the complexly developed in the series and threw her into the villain role just to have her barely check off a list and fall into the same old routines previous villains did.
Absolutely not. You can tell she was really put in the game only because fans requested her return over a shitton of times since Season 1 and not give her enough attention. Not enough conversations between her and Clementine throughout the whole season. They never gave her a good motivation for not only the decision of kidnapping children for war but also the choice of torturing them despite her official plan. Lilly never even mentioned Kenny, the person who argued with her the most and murdered her dad, Clementine doesn't even have that option because she can mention Duck but not Kenny.
Does Lilly even know she was right about Ben being the cause of trouble?
There is not even a clue in which Lilly could be redeemed. She just became a villain instantly by ordering her people to injure the kids (Omar), cutting off Louis' tongue, cutting his/Violet's finger, murdering a boy who just brought walkers into their base (Doesn't even give James a chance for her 'plan') and kills him despite him being the one who decided to spare her.
That's not what I was getting at(see BeefJerkyX), but most of what you said isn't applicable either.
Simply put, being at odds with other characters or maybe even the Carley/Doug thing(although that was a major moment) doesn't make someone a villain or bad. Otherwise, characters like Kenny fell into that description too.
Also, that was Larry who wanted to get rid of Duck if he turned out to be bitten--Lily herself is taken aback by that and tries to convince him not to only to be shushed.
Lilly was technically a villian before TFS. She killed Carley/Doug. Plus, she leaves Lee for dead if you don't save Larry. And she was willi… moreng to throw a kid outside to be eaten. She wasn't a real nice person at any point. Lilly was already a bad person, she just became more true to her nature over the course of the series.
And that decision likely only happened because they were scrambling for reclaim attention.
They never gave her a good motivation for not only the decision of kidnapping children for war but also the choice of torturing them despite her official plan.
The latter is one of the real issues.
They obviously never went into it, but the whole kidnap adolescents thing was likely a decision made by her superiors and/or leader out of desperation from gradually losing the war--she was only entrusted to lead an expedition to retrieve more in that area.
murdering a boy who just brought walkers into their base (Doesn't even give James a chance for her 'plan')
Uh, you mean in the sense that she didn't consider the potential of such of an ability?
Absolutely not. You can tell she was really put in the game only because fans requested her return over a shitton of times since Season 1 an… mored not give her enough attention. Not enough conversations between her and Clementine throughout the whole season. They never gave her a good motivation for not only the decision of kidnapping children for war but also the choice of torturing them despite her official plan. Lilly never even mentioned Kenny, the person who argued with her the most and murdered her dad, Clementine doesn't even have that option because she can mention Duck but not Kenny.
Does Lilly even know she was right about Ben being the cause of trouble?
There is not even a clue in which Lilly could be redeemed. She just became a villain instantly by ordering her people to injure the kids (Omar), cutting off Louis' tongue, cutting his/Violet's finger, murdering a boy who just brought walkers into their base (Doesn't even give James… [view original content]
Those things don't make you a villain no, but it can be the start. Lilly already went on a dark path when Kenny killed her father and when she killed Carley/Doug. After that, 7 years in the apocalypse is enough for someone to turn into a "villain". The question is, was an explanation needed on what happens in those 7 years and how she turned into the person we see in TFS? Like I said, it's not to hard to imagine that Lilly can become a villain, judging by her actions and personality in season 1.
So, do we really need a detailed backstory on how Lilly ended up like that?
That's not what I was getting at(see BeefJerkyX), but most of what you said isn't applicable either.
Simply put, being at odds with other … morecharacters or maybe even the Carley/Doug thing(although that was a major moment) doesn't make someone a villain or bad. Otherwise, characters like Kenny fell into that description too.
Also, that was Larry who wanted to get rid of Duck if he turned out to be bitten--Lily herself is taken aback by that and tries to convince him not to only to be shushed.
What exactly would her and Clementine talk about? If she would like a king sized bed in her holding cell? Even if Lilly wanted a conversation, it would be to convince Clementine to join her and to get Clementine to have her group come peacefully.
Why would she bring up Kenny, a man who she had an issue with over 8 years ago? She clearly resents the man after Season One, Episode 2, why would she care about what happened to him? Kenny's status wasn't on the forefront of her mind, finding people to fight the Delta's war was her top priority.
Lilly tortured them to put fear onto the others, to teach them a lesson and to get them in line, she used mental torture to get Violet in line, sure physical pain is different to mental pain, but for Lilly, that was necessary to frighten the others to obey.
Does Lilly need to know about Ben giving away supplies to the bandits? Even though it occurred several years ago?
Lilly became an antagonist when she pulled the trigger in Season One, Episode 3, it wasn't this instantaneous thing that happened as soon as she saw Clementine in The Final Season, Episode 2, keep in mind that it has been well over 8 years in universe since the events of Season One, is it unreasonable to suspect that Lilly has endured several tragedies and inflicted pain on others which hardened her and turned her into the person she is in The Final Season? Clementine certainly isn't the same little girl we knew from Season One, she is a good example of how the apocalypse changes people.
I doubt Lilly would look at James, a guy who wears walker skin to lead walkers to the Delta's boat, knowing that that could kill all of her crew, and try to persuade him to join, sure he would be useful, but The Whisperers are a group that performed horrifying crimes, to others and to each other, would she really want a Whisperer in her group?
Could Carver be redeemed? He murdered several people without much remorse, not all antagonists are able to be redeemed, even if Clementine wanted to forgive Lilly, do you really think the Boarding School group would, even though her group stole two of their people, then forced one of them to kill the other, stabbing Mitch, torturing Louis/Violet, would they really forgive her for all of that? I do not think so.
Was it not James who suggested sparing her, and it was AJ who truly spared her? Clearly at that point she is done trying to persuade the group, and instead wanted to take them by extreme force
Absolutely not. You can tell she was really put in the game only because fans requested her return over a shitton of times since Season 1 an… mored not give her enough attention. Not enough conversations between her and Clementine throughout the whole season. They never gave her a good motivation for not only the decision of kidnapping children for war but also the choice of torturing them despite her official plan. Lilly never even mentioned Kenny, the person who argued with her the most and murdered her dad, Clementine doesn't even have that option because she can mention Duck but not Kenny.
Does Lilly even know she was right about Ben being the cause of trouble?
There is not even a clue in which Lilly could be redeemed. She just became a villain instantly by ordering her people to injure the kids (Omar), cutting off Louis' tongue, cutting his/Violet's finger, murdering a boy who just brought walkers into their base (Doesn't even give James… [view original content]
The question is, was an explanation needed on what happens in those 7 years and how she turned into the person we see in TFS? Like I said, it's not to hard to imagine that Lilly can become a villain, judging by her actions and personality in season 1.
So, do we really need a detailed backstory on how Lilly ended up like that?
I think a sum up for this particular question is that people generally would've like something. If that sounds broad, well that tells you that this is far from an isolated issue.
However, that question, while more on point than what the reply tried to push, is still not really the crux of this topic and criticism.
Those things don't make you a villain no, but it can be the start. Lilly already went on a dark path when Kenny killed her father and when s… morehe killed Carley/Doug. After that, 7 years in the apocalypse is enough for someone to turn into a "villain". The question is, was an explanation needed on what happens in those 7 years and how she turned into the person we see in TFS? Like I said, it's not to hard to imagine that Lilly can become a villain, judging by her actions and personality in season 1.
So, do we really need a detailed backstory on how Lilly ended up like that?
I was referring to when you stated that Lilly was just "thrown" into the villian role, but she was already a villian before TFS. You also stated that her role as the villian made ger character fall flat. But technically, Lilly's actions with Marlon, Minerva, and Sophie set the course for TFS. Lilly's actions led to deaths of Sophie, Minerva, Marlon, Brody, Tenn/Violet/Louis/James. She even put a gun to Tenn's head and was the benefactor in Louis'/Violet's/Clem's mutilation.
I guess what I'm trying to say is: Lilly was an OK villain. You could argue out of all the villains in TWD; Lilly fucked Clem's life the most.
That's not what I was getting at(see BeefJerkyX), but most of what you said isn't applicable either.
Simply put, being at odds with other … morecharacters or maybe even the Carley/Doug thing(although that was a major moment) doesn't make someone a villain or bad. Otherwise, characters like Kenny fell into that description too.
Also, that was Larry who wanted to get rid of Duck if he turned out to be bitten--Lily herself is taken aback by that and tries to convince him not to only to be shushed.
What exactly would her and Clementine talk about? If she would like a king sized bed in her holding cell? Even if Lilly wanted a conversation, it would be to convince Clementine to join her and to get Clementine to have her group come peacefully.
Clementine and Kenny made so many callbacks from their first adventures and Lilly doesn't do any of that shit. It just shows that she turns from a great main character to a horrible villain without at least a full motivation. How is recruiting children for war going to help them even win? It would take them years to be fully trained.
Why would she bring up Kenny, a man who she had an issue with over 8 years ago? She clearly resents the man after Season One, Episode 2, why would she care about what happened to him? Kenny's status wasn't on the forefront of her mind, finding people to fight the Delta's war was her top priority.
What did I just say? Kenny killed her father and he must have been one of the reasons why Lilly acts that way but he isn't because Lilly doesn't even reference him, especially when she talks about her father.
Lilly tortured them to put fear onto the others, to teach them a lesson and to get them in line, she used mental torture to get Violet in line, sure physical pain is different to mental pain, but for Lilly, that was necessary to frighten the others to obey.
Yeah, cause torturing will sure make them convinced they will end up in a safe place if they fight in war.
I doubt Lilly would look at James, a guy who wears walker skin to lead walkers to the Delta's boat, knowing that that could kill all of her crew, and try to persuade him to join, sure he would be useful, but The Whisperers are a group that performed horrifying crimes, to others and to each other, would she really want a Whisperer in her group?
How do you know Lilly had knowledge of the whisperers? How does drawing walkers to their base justify Lilly's choice of just straight up murdering that kid? It makes her "top priority" even more nonsensical. Isn't she looking for children who are pretty capable of fighting in wars or what?
Was it not James who suggested sparing her, and it was AJ who truly spared her? Clearly at that point she is done trying to persuade the group, and instead wanted to take them by extreme force
Does this even make her a good character? Cause I don't see it.
Could Carver be redeemed? He murdered several people without much remorse, not all antagonists are able to be redeemed, even if Clementine wanted to forgive Lilly, do you really think the Boarding School group would, even though her group stole two of their people, then forced one of them to kill the other, stabbing Mitch, torturing Louis/Violet, would they really forgive her for all of that? I do not think so.
This isn't about Clementine siding with Lilly, this is about Lilly's development. She was just a cliched villain in that game despite being a memorable main character in the first season. She was just as bad as Morales from the TV show. Returned only because of fan request.
What exactly would her and Clementine talk about? If she would like a king sized bed in her holding cell? Even if Lilly wanted a conversatio… moren, it would be to convince Clementine to join her and to get Clementine to have her group come peacefully.
Why would she bring up Kenny, a man who she had an issue with over 8 years ago? She clearly resents the man after Season One, Episode 2, why would she care about what happened to him? Kenny's status wasn't on the forefront of her mind, finding people to fight the Delta's war was her top priority.
Lilly tortured them to put fear onto the others, to teach them a lesson and to get them in line, she used mental torture to get Violet in line, sure physical pain is different to mental pain, but for Lilly, that was necessary to frighten the others to obey.
Does Lilly need to know about Ben giving away supplies to the bandits? Even though it occurred several years ago?
Lilly became an antagonist wh… [view original content]
It can be realistically be argued that Lilly could have been a villain in this universe. However she still shouldn't have been in the game. It was very obvious that the only reason she was in the game was for another one of Telltale's marketing ploys 'hey look here this character is back so come buy this episode'. They were in Georgia the last time we saw Lilly and now the story is set in an entirely different part of the country around seven years later. It was totally implausible for Clementine to run into Lilly again. A brand new character should have been in the role that Lilly had in TFS and video game Lilly's fate should have been left up in the air for fans to decide for themselves about what happened to her.
That's not exactly what I meant. I'll get to this a bit later.
No, not really. It bordered in Episode 3 at least.
But technically, Lilly's actions with Marlon, Minerva, and Sophie set the course for TFS.
I'm pretty sure that was more Abel since he's the one Marlon cut the deal with, but eh details.
I guess what I'm trying to say is: Lilly was an OK villain.
And that's part of the problem, I suppose.
@AronDracula Yeah, just doing shit things and walks away like nothing happened.
Does this even make her a good character? Cause I don't see it. This isn't about Clementine siding with Lilly, this is about Lilly's development. She was just a cliched villain in that game despite being a memorable main character in the first season. @sony12 It was very obvious that the only reason she was in the game was for another one of Telltale's marketing ploys 'hey look here this character is back so come buy this episode'
I was referring to when you stated that Lilly was just "thrown" into the villian role, but she was already a villian before TFS. You also st… moreated that her role as the villian made ger character fall flat. But technically, Lilly's actions with Marlon, Minerva, and Sophie set the course for TFS. Lilly's actions led to deaths of Sophie, Minerva, Marlon, Brody, Tenn/Violet/Louis/James. She even put a gun to Tenn's head and was the benefactor in Louis'/Violet's/Clem's mutilation.
I guess what I'm trying to say is: Lilly was an OK villain. You could argue out of all the villains in TWD; Lilly fucked Clem's life the most.
Clementine and Kenny made so many callbacks from their first adventures and Lilly doesn't do any of that shit. It just shows that she turns from a great main character to a horrible villain without at least a full motivation. How is recruiting children for war going to help them even win? It would take them years to be fully trained.
Well first off, Kenny and Lilly are not the same people, they don't share the same thought process, Kenny's reunion with Clementine happened at a time where the events of Season One were only a couple of years ago, Lilly hadn't seen Clementine in 8 years, Lilly was also in the area for the sole purpose of finding recruits, her reunion with Clementine consisted with hurting her and aiming a rifle at her, while Kenny was returning to the Ski Lodge and happened to encounter Clementine.
Those very same children she tried recruiting managed to survive and adapt to a world where several billions of people couldn't, does that not say how capable they actually are? You underestimate them.
It just shows that she turns from a great main character to a horrible villain without at least a full motivation
haha if you say so amigo.
Isn't her motivation to protect her Community? Is that not a big enough deal for Lilly? Her Community's Survival rested on her shoulders, why wouldn't she want to try and protect her home?
What did I just say? Kenny killed her father and he must have been one of the reasons why Lilly acts that way but he isn't because Lilly doesn't even reference him, especially when she talks about her father.
Kenny is the reason why Lilly flips in Episode 3, I doubt he is responsible for how she is in The Final Season, I am sure she has moved on from it, but she definitely still resents Kenny. And why does Lilly have to mention Kenny when she talks about Larry? Why would she talk about the man who killed her dad? Does she need to? Is it something that she is obligated to say because she brought up Larry? Just because she doesn't mention Kenny doesn't mean she hasn't forgot about her history with him or what he/Lee did to Larry.
Yeah, cause torturing will sure make them convinced they will end up in a safe place if they fight in war.
Not as a way of convincing them, but to threaten them, and show them what will happen if they don't obey, Lilly arrived at the School with the intention of getting them to come peacefully, but from that point on, she knows that no one is going to willingly join her, so she applied forceful methods and inflicted pain on Louis/Violet to show Aasim/Omar and others that if they refuse to cooperate, they will endure the same, perhaps worse methods.
How do you know Lilly had knowledge of the whisperers? How does drawing walkers to their base justify Lilly's choice of just straight up murdering that kid? It makes her "top priority" even more nonsensical. Isn't she looking for children who are pretty capable of fighting in wars or what?
Do you not think that the tale of a group that clothe themselves in walker flesh would spread fast like a ghost Story? The Whisperers traveled with the Herd, so they could have been to several places which had Survivors that encountered them, lived to tell the tale and passed around the Story of a group of people that move along with the herd? And I never said it justified her murdering James, I beg to differ, but I think anyone would be wary if they were near a Whisperer, who are known for being brutal.
Was it not James who suggested sparing her, and it was AJ who truly spared her? Clearly at that point she is done trying to persuade the group, and instead wanted to take them by extreme force.
Does this even make her a good character? Cause I don't see it.
Where in that point of my comment did I say that made her a good character? I don't see it. What I do see is me explaining that James suggested sparing her, and how AJ, the child who was armed and basically had Lilly's fate in his hands, truly spared her? Her proceeding to stab James is her taking back control of the situation, she is done with persuasion, and instead wants to take Clementine and her group by force. That is indeed what I said man.
This isn't about Clementine siding with Lilly, this is about Lilly's development. She was just a cliched villain in that game despite being a memorable main character in the first season. She was just as bad as Morales from the TV show. Returned only because of fan request.
My comment wasn't about Clementine siding with Lilly, at least, that wasn't the purpose, the main point of that particular segment of my comment was about Lilly being redeemable, I then used Carver as an example, he performed many horrible things, but where was his redemption? Lilly's actions ruled out her opportunity at redemption, just like Carver's actions made him exempt from redemption.
And Lilly's development in The Final Season is such a big problem because she was an antagonist? She pretty much laid out that path for herself in Season One, Episode 3, even if she wasn't a member of the Delta, would Clementine really get along with someone who murdered one of her own group, determinantly fought and bickered with Lee over his alliance with Kenny and his decisions, even if they were morally right? Why would Clementine do that?
Would you not say Lilly was memorable in The Final Season due to the significant actions she made each time she appeared?
And isn't using the term cliche to describe just about anything you don't like a cliche, considering it is an overused term used describe something or someone you don't like?
Returned only because of fan request.
You know Writers are able to bring back characters if they feel they can implement them into their Story right? Fans don't always have a say on the Story or its contents, as much as we may want to, but trust needs to be shown to the people who pour their heart and soul into what they create.
Lilly coming back was considered for a long while, their decision to bring her back wasn't simply because "The fans want her" as much as you may want to think that.
What exactly would her and Clementine talk about? If she would like a king sized bed in her holding cell? Even if Lilly wanted a conversatio… moren, it would be to convince Clementine to join her and to get Clementine to have her group come peacefully.
Clementine and Kenny made so many callbacks from their first adventures and Lilly doesn't do any of that shit. It just shows that she turns from a great main character to a horrible villain without at least a full motivation. How is recruiting children for war going to help them even win? It would take them years to be fully trained.
Why would she bring up Kenny, a man who she had an issue with over 8 years ago? She clearly resents the man after Season One, Episode 2, why would she care about what happened to him? Kenny's status wasn't on the forefront of her mind, finding people to fight the Delta's war was her top priority.
What did I just say? Kenny killed her father and he m… [view original content]
I feel like some people forget that their interactions with Lily as the player of season 1 was as Lee, not as Clementine. You can't compare that to Kenny and Clem because, with Kenny, they not only spent much more time together in season 1 and were connected through Duck but also shared some really important experiences very closely together in season 2. Lily had absolutely none of that with Clem. Clementine was just some kid that Lee had hanging around who ate their food. There is barely a relationship there and nothing to reminisce over.
Not going to try to defend Lilly being in TFS at all because I absolutely do not think she should have been in the game. However when strictly looking at season 1 although Lilly and Clem didn't have much onscreen interaction there still were opportunities for them to build some type of relationship (rather good or bad).
Lilly was actually with the group for a fairly lengthy time. There was a three month time skip inbetween episodes 1 and 2 while they were living at that motel area. So Lilly and Clem still would have had some chances to interact with one another even if it technically wasn't onscreen.
I feel like some people forget that their interactions with Lily as the player of season 1 was as Lee, not as Clementine. You can't compare … morethat to Kenny and Clem because, with Kenny, they not only spent much more time together in season 1 and were connected through Duck but also shared some really important experiences very closely together in season 2. Lily had absolutely none of that with Clem. Clementine was just some kid that Lee had hanging around who ate their food. There is barely a relationship there and nothing to reminisce over.
Okay, time to address this: So I've noticed both here and in the couple of conversations I bothered to see back when this topic was fresh that there is clearly a degree of distraction, bias, and in some cases dis-ingenuity going on. It results in [more than] two sides contra-positively explaining/yelling past each other and personally gave further reason to avoid those discussions half the time.
Lily's characterization, morality, backstory, motivation, and depth--both the original and the retool for TFS--are mainly quantifiers. They can be used to help accent and describe their view point, but it's not the root of the criticism.
The reason I've seen given by the majority of people who don't like how Lilith was handled was that she was some measure of underwhelming, underutilized, or collectively underwritten, with the first being the big one.
I don't think he knows that this site is up and somewhat lively again. He's been pretty active on reddit. You can probably talk to him there and see if he wanted to come back.
Okay, time to address this: So I've noticed both here and in the couple of conversations I bothered to see back when this topic was fresh th… moreat there is clearly a degree of distraction, bias, and in some cases dis-ingenuity going on. It results in [more than] two sides contra-positively explaining/yelling past each other and personally gave further reason to avoid those discussions half the time.
Lily's characterization, morality, backstory, motivation, and depth--both the original and the retool for TFS--are mainly quantifiers. They can be used to help accent and describe their view point, but it's not the root of the criticism.
The reason I've seen given by the majority of people who don't like how Lilith was handled was that she was some measure of underwhelming, underutilized, or collectively underwritten, with the first being the big one.
The reason I've seen given by the majority of people who don't like how Lilith was handled was that she was some measure of underwhelming, underutilized, or collectively underwritten, with the first being the big one.
The reason I've seen given by the majority of people who don't like how Lilith was handled was that she was some measure of underwhelming, underutilized, or collectively underwritten, with the first being the big one.
Actually just talking in terms of all the remakes currently going on. They are most definitely there for nostalgia purposes but they are also being made to introduce a younger generation to those stories. Some kids might not like the animation from the cartoons thirty years ago so if they make a new up to date version of that story it would be easier for them to get into.
I was under the impression this place was dead as every time I clicked on it said 404 error until now.
Also just in general I guess I'm moving on. Imma still be up in here tho my guys I wont abandon all of you ;(
Comments
No, not really.
Pushing aside acknowledging some of the meta-elements or "politics" for the sake of a quick post, Lilith was ultimately underwhelming because they took not just a pre-established character, but easily one of the complexly developed in the series and threw her into the villain role just to have her barely check off a list and fall into the same old routines previous villains did.
Not poorly written per se, but there was some missed potential there. I don't believe that Lily being in a villain role is as unbelievable as some of the people in these forums make it out to be considering how she wasn't exactly a saint in the first season either, however it would've been interesting to gain some understanding on how she got to that point.
I liked Lilly as a villain, but they could've done more with her.
I mean she already went on a dark path when Kenny killed her father and when she shot Carley/Doug. 7 years in the apocalypse enough for someone to turn psycho, so it's definitely possible. Honestly, I'm still on the fence on whether we should have had backstory or not. Because like I said, we already know she started losing it in season 1.
Yeah, I'd also say that she's not poorly written but there is probably missed potential. There isn't really enough to say she's poorly written one way or another. She gets a tiny, tiny role and it isn't really one that's developed. Almost everything that's there makes sense to me but the fact that it's Lily is a distraction because, as players, we have history there. More so than the characters themselves given that Lily and Clem have such an age difference and they barely interacted in season 1 and then there were so many years and things that happened in between - probably far more life experiences than we lived through in the same period.
So maybe what I'm thinking is that she wasn't poorly written but maybe poorly placed. That maybe she should have been left out unless that reunion really defined something for both characters. As it is, I don't feel that happened. Lily could have been anyone else.
Lilly was technically a villian before TFS. She killed Carley/Doug. Plus, she leaves Lee for dead if you don't save Larry. And she was willing to throw a kid outside to be eaten. She wasn't a real nice person at any point. Lilly was already a bad person, she just became more true to her nature over the course of the series.
Absolutely not. You can tell she was really put in the game only because fans requested her return over a shitton of times since Season 1 and not give her enough attention. Not enough conversations between her and Clementine throughout the whole season. They never gave her a good motivation for not only the decision of kidnapping children for war but also the choice of torturing them despite her official plan. Lilly never even mentioned Kenny, the person who argued with her the most and murdered her dad, Clementine doesn't even have that option because she can mention Duck but not Kenny.
Does Lilly even know she was right about Ben being the cause of trouble?
There is not even a clue in which Lilly could be redeemed. She just became a villain instantly by ordering her people to injure the kids (Omar), cutting off Louis' tongue, cutting his/Violet's finger, murdering a boy who just brought walkers into their base (Doesn't even give James a chance for her 'plan') and kills him despite him being the one who decided to spare her.
Short answer: NO
That's not what I was getting at(see BeefJerkyX), but most of what you said isn't applicable either.
Simply put, being at odds with other characters or maybe even the Carley/Doug thing(although that was a major moment) doesn't make someone a villain or bad. Otherwise, characters like Kenny fell into that description too.
Also, that was Larry who wanted to get rid of Duck if he turned out to be bitten--Lily herself is taken aback by that and tries to convince him not to only to be shushed.
And that decision likely only happened because they were scrambling for reclaim attention.
The latter is one of the real issues.
They obviously never went into it, but the whole kidnap adolescents thing was likely a decision made by her superiors and/or leader out of desperation from gradually losing the war--she was only entrusted to lead an expedition to retrieve more in that area.
Uh, you mean in the sense that she didn't consider the potential of such of an ability?
Those things don't make you a villain no, but it can be the start. Lilly already went on a dark path when Kenny killed her father and when she killed Carley/Doug. After that, 7 years in the apocalypse is enough for someone to turn into a "villain". The question is, was an explanation needed on what happens in those 7 years and how she turned into the person we see in TFS? Like I said, it's not to hard to imagine that Lilly can become a villain, judging by her actions and personality in season 1.
So, do we really need a detailed backstory on how Lilly ended up like that?
What exactly would her and Clementine talk about? If she would like a king sized bed in her holding cell? Even if Lilly wanted a conversation, it would be to convince Clementine to join her and to get Clementine to have her group come peacefully.
Why would she bring up Kenny, a man who she had an issue with over 8 years ago? She clearly resents the man after Season One, Episode 2, why would she care about what happened to him? Kenny's status wasn't on the forefront of her mind, finding people to fight the Delta's war was her top priority.
Lilly tortured them to put fear onto the others, to teach them a lesson and to get them in line, she used mental torture to get Violet in line, sure physical pain is different to mental pain, but for Lilly, that was necessary to frighten the others to obey.
Does Lilly need to know about Ben giving away supplies to the bandits? Even though it occurred several years ago?
Lilly became an antagonist when she pulled the trigger in Season One, Episode 3, it wasn't this instantaneous thing that happened as soon as she saw Clementine in The Final Season, Episode 2, keep in mind that it has been well over 8 years in universe since the events of Season One, is it unreasonable to suspect that Lilly has endured several tragedies and inflicted pain on others which hardened her and turned her into the person she is in The Final Season? Clementine certainly isn't the same little girl we knew from Season One, she is a good example of how the apocalypse changes people.
I doubt Lilly would look at James, a guy who wears walker skin to lead walkers to the Delta's boat, knowing that that could kill all of her crew, and try to persuade him to join, sure he would be useful, but The Whisperers are a group that performed horrifying crimes, to others and to each other, would she really want a Whisperer in her group?
Could Carver be redeemed? He murdered several people without much remorse, not all antagonists are able to be redeemed, even if Clementine wanted to forgive Lilly, do you really think the Boarding School group would, even though her group stole two of their people, then forced one of them to kill the other, stabbing Mitch, torturing Louis/Violet, would they really forgive her for all of that? I do not think so.
Was it not James who suggested sparing her, and it was AJ who truly spared her? Clearly at that point she is done trying to persuade the group, and instead wanted to take them by extreme force
Now that's fair enough.
I think a sum up for this particular question is that people generally would've like something. If that sounds broad, well that tells you that this is far from an isolated issue.
However, that question, while more on point than what the reply tried to push, is still not really the crux of this topic and criticism.
I was referring to when you stated that Lilly was just "thrown" into the villian role, but she was already a villian before TFS. You also stated that her role as the villian made ger character fall flat. But technically, Lilly's actions with Marlon, Minerva, and Sophie set the course for TFS. Lilly's actions led to deaths of Sophie, Minerva, Marlon, Brody, Tenn/Violet/Louis/James. She even put a gun to Tenn's head and was the benefactor in Louis'/Violet's/Clem's mutilation.
I guess what I'm trying to say is: Lilly was an OK villain. You could argue out of all the villains in TWD; Lilly fucked Clem's life the most.
Lily served her purpose as a villain perfectly.
She's actually one of the few things done right in TFS.
Yeah, just doing shit things and walks away like nothing happened.
Clementine and Kenny made so many callbacks from their first adventures and Lilly doesn't do any of that shit. It just shows that she turns from a great main character to a horrible villain without at least a full motivation. How is recruiting children for war going to help them even win? It would take them years to be fully trained.
What did I just say? Kenny killed her father and he must have been one of the reasons why Lilly acts that way but he isn't because Lilly doesn't even reference him, especially when she talks about her father.
Yeah, cause torturing will sure make them convinced they will end up in a safe place if they fight in war.
How do you know Lilly had knowledge of the whisperers? How does drawing walkers to their base justify Lilly's choice of just straight up murdering that kid? It makes her "top priority" even more nonsensical. Isn't she looking for children who are pretty capable of fighting in wars or what?
Does this even make her a good character? Cause I don't see it.
This isn't about Clementine siding with Lilly, this is about Lilly's development. She was just a cliched villain in that game despite being a memorable main character in the first season. She was just as bad as Morales from the TV show. Returned only because of fan request.
It can be realistically be argued that Lilly could have been a villain in this universe. However she still shouldn't have been in the game. It was very obvious that the only reason she was in the game was for another one of Telltale's marketing ploys 'hey look here this character is back so come buy this episode'. They were in Georgia the last time we saw Lilly and now the story is set in an entirely different part of the country around seven years later. It was totally implausible for Clementine to run into Lilly again. A brand new character should have been in the role that Lilly had in TFS and video game Lilly's fate should have been left up in the air for fans to decide for themselves about what happened to her.
I'm pretty sure that was more Abel since he's the one Marlon cut the deal with, but eh details.
And that's part of the problem, I suppose.
Dingdingdingdingding!
Well first off, Kenny and Lilly are not the same people, they don't share the same thought process, Kenny's reunion with Clementine happened at a time where the events of Season One were only a couple of years ago, Lilly hadn't seen Clementine in 8 years, Lilly was also in the area for the sole purpose of finding recruits, her reunion with Clementine consisted with hurting her and aiming a rifle at her, while Kenny was returning to the Ski Lodge and happened to encounter Clementine.
Those very same children she tried recruiting managed to survive and adapt to a world where several billions of people couldn't, does that not say how capable they actually are? You underestimate them.
Isn't her motivation to protect her Community? Is that not a big enough deal for Lilly? Her Community's Survival rested on her shoulders, why wouldn't she want to try and protect her home?
Kenny is the reason why Lilly flips in Episode 3, I doubt he is responsible for how she is in The Final Season, I am sure she has moved on from it, but she definitely still resents Kenny. And why does Lilly have to mention Kenny when she talks about Larry? Why would she talk about the man who killed her dad? Does she need to? Is it something that she is obligated to say because she brought up Larry? Just because she doesn't mention Kenny doesn't mean she hasn't forgot about her history with him or what he/Lee did to Larry.
Not as a way of convincing them, but to threaten them, and show them what will happen if they don't obey, Lilly arrived at the School with the intention of getting them to come peacefully, but from that point on, she knows that no one is going to willingly join her, so she applied forceful methods and inflicted pain on Louis/Violet to show Aasim/Omar and others that if they refuse to cooperate, they will endure the same, perhaps worse methods.
Do you not think that the tale of a group that clothe themselves in walker flesh would spread fast like a ghost Story? The Whisperers traveled with the Herd, so they could have been to several places which had Survivors that encountered them, lived to tell the tale and passed around the Story of a group of people that move along with the herd? And I never said it justified her murdering James, I beg to differ, but I think anyone would be wary if they were near a Whisperer, who are known for being brutal.
Where in that point of my comment did I say that made her a good character? I don't see it. What I do see is me explaining that James suggested sparing her, and how AJ, the child who was armed and basically had Lilly's fate in his hands, truly spared her? Her proceeding to stab James is her taking back control of the situation, she is done with persuasion, and instead wants to take Clementine and her group by force. That is indeed what I said man.
My comment wasn't about Clementine siding with Lilly, at least, that wasn't the purpose, the main point of that particular segment of my comment was about Lilly being redeemable, I then used Carver as an example, he performed many horrible things, but where was his redemption? Lilly's actions ruled out her opportunity at redemption, just like Carver's actions made him exempt from redemption.
And Lilly's development in The Final Season is such a big problem because she was an antagonist? She pretty much laid out that path for herself in Season One, Episode 3, even if she wasn't a member of the Delta, would Clementine really get along with someone who murdered one of her own group, determinantly fought and bickered with Lee over his alliance with Kenny and his decisions, even if they were morally right? Why would Clementine do that?
Would you not say Lilly was memorable in The Final Season due to the significant actions she made each time she appeared?
And isn't using the term cliche to describe just about anything you don't like a cliche, considering it is an overused term used describe something or someone you don't like?
You know Writers are able to bring back characters if they feel they can implement them into their Story right? Fans don't always have a say on the Story or its contents, as much as we may want to, but trust needs to be shown to the people who pour their heart and soul into what they create.
Lilly coming back was considered for a long while, their decision to bring her back wasn't simply because "The fans want her" as much as you may want to think that.
I feel like some people forget that their interactions with Lily as the player of season 1 was as Lee, not as Clementine. You can't compare that to Kenny and Clem because, with Kenny, they not only spent much more time together in season 1 and were connected through Duck but also shared some really important experiences very closely together in season 2. Lily had absolutely none of that with Clem. Clementine was just some kid that Lee had hanging around who ate their food. There is barely a relationship there and nothing to reminisce over.
Not going to try to defend Lilly being in TFS at all because I absolutely do not think she should have been in the game. However when strictly looking at season 1 although Lilly and Clem didn't have much onscreen interaction there still were opportunities for them to build some type of relationship (rather good or bad).
Lilly was actually with the group for a fairly lengthy time. There was a three month time skip inbetween episodes 1 and 2 while they were living at that motel area. So Lilly and Clem still would have had some chances to interact with one another even if it technically wasn't onscreen.
Where's @Poogers555 when you need him, eh?
Okay, time to address this: So I've noticed both here and in the couple of conversations I bothered to see back when this topic was fresh that there is clearly a degree of distraction, bias, and in some cases dis-ingenuity going on. It results in [more than] two sides contra-positively explaining/yelling past each other and personally gave further reason to avoid those discussions half the time.
Lily's characterization, morality, backstory, motivation, and depth--both the original and the retool for TFS--are mainly quantifiers. They can be used to help accent and describe their view point, but it's not the root of the criticism.
The reason I've seen given by the majority of people who don't like how Lilith was handled was that she was some measure of underwhelming, underutilized, or collectively underwritten, with the first being the big one.
I don't think he knows that this site is up and somewhat lively again. He's been pretty active on reddit. You can probably talk to him there and see if he wanted to come back.
Then what is the root of the criticism?
Lilly's character in TFS is like Disney's Live Action remakes. It's ok but the original did it alot better, it's presence is merely for nostalgia.
People found her underwhelming because she was underwritten. And it had everything to do with characterization, morality, backstory, motivation.
No,and the game immediately went downhill the moment she first showed up.
She was essentially a generic secondary villain who knew Clementine by chance.
She really had no purpose in her return nor did it serve any core story function as Kenny's return in S2 had.
Actually just talking in terms of all the remakes currently going on. They are most definitely there for nostalgia purposes but they are also being made to introduce a younger generation to those stories. Some kids might not like the animation from the cartoons thirty years ago so if they make a new up to date version of that story it would be easier for them to get into.
I was under the impression this place was dead as every time I clicked on it said 404 error until now.
Also just in general I guess I'm moving on. Imma still be up in here tho my guys I wont abandon all of you ;(
Good to see you. P.s If you load in and it gives error 404, just scroll down and hit the community tab. That's how I get in.