Telltale Starting The Wolf Among Us 2 From Scratch... And it's for the best...
Here's the article. Leave your thoughts on what do you think about this.
Sign in to comment in this discussion.
Here's the article. Leave your thoughts on what do you think about this.
Comments
Well, it makes sense. They are using a new engine (Unity), in contrast to the Telltale Tool. which was used for all the titles before Telltale went under previously.
Plus, it would be better for the new team to start from scratch thus not being too bogged down by thoughts such as "this was what it was supposed to have been before."
As long as the new creative team don't break canon of the Fables lore, and/or tries to drastically change the look/personality of the characters from how they looked/behaved in season 1 (that it feels alien), I have no problem with this.
No they're using the Unreal Engine now.
None of this is really that surprising seeing how not much was done in the first place. I do wish some concept stuff of original season 2 was out there to look at though, only one was the menu one
Oops my bad. @iFoRias thanks for the correction.
yeah, now that development has been confirmed to be restarting with a clean slate, there's really no reason for all the secrecy behind the original season 2. it'd be nice to know more about it.
Fairly certain there is no NDA on old Wolf 2 at all seeing how Stranger Things was leaked everywhere and is posted on former Telltale pages for portfolios while the most concrete Wolf thing was that concept for a new menu. Its more likely that original rumors are true and there was almost nothing done.
There's still the season outline. It's interesting that the new dev team is keeping the winter theme, which was visible from the second logo from 2018; I wonder if they're going to keep anything else from the original story.
Mainly I just want to know what ideas they had. At this point I don't really care if they didn't complete anything, I just want to know what their plans were.
Even then thats some basic stuff. Sequel to original, set in winter, wont answer the cliff hanger ending. Thats not really "keeping" anything as thats bare minimum stuff. Its a sequel - given. Wont answer Season 1's Faith/Nerrissa question - also pretty given (but also hasnt been reconfirmed so maybe they will) and then the winter theme has been asked for for years now. Everyone has been saying "Let Wolf 2 be set in winter" so I wouldnt really consider that being "keeping the winter theme from the the original idea". (just something so natural to happen, it became kind of an unwritten rule thats what was going to happen among everyone reaching this common conclusion)
You could say that with TFS, but then the writers would just say "Kids vs Adults! Omar!"
What is this BS?
Yea I guess that was wrong maybe TWAU 2 really was amazing, maybe it was even better than what we're going to get. Have we ever considered that AdHoc did indeed talk to the old writers about their plans? Inspiration and whatnot?
That's what I meant, what I mean is where does this 'Kids vs Adults! Omar!' bs comes from?
I mean it could have been something that doesn't make sense/not right for Fables/TWAU. I don't like the kids vs adults and half the cast being under-developed aspect of TFS.
It's fine what you think about half of the cast of TFS, it's your opinion but I don't see anything about "kids vs. adults" a bad aspects, like at all, sure they're teenagers fighting against adults but teens doing anything to survive from being taken away to a dangerous war.
The Delta doesn't try to hide that they're ruthless and willing to go to extreme lengths in this war of theirs, the way I see it I think they're just like "The Maureders" (if that's how you call it, idk) what "the New Frontier" were originally going to be called before the release of ANF, I heard before that originally they were recruiters for slavery and originally was going to be in ANF but was scrapped and then of course they went with the raiders and slavery aspect in TFS.
I am glad they are starting from scratch because, let's face it, WAU 1 had a lot of plot holes that were never fixed.
We all know that after episode 3 they changed directors/were rushed, so the story was never fully told.
Instead of working with that barbed wire, they can just use new material to create a story with.
Personally I feel the issue with The Final Season was it became just another generic "us vs them" plot for the third time in a row in the games and pretty much all Walking Dead media being "our group vs their group." It gets super boring. Season 1 was so great because it heavily focused on the conflict within "our" group, not our group vs theirs. Season 2 did a bit of both but probably should have stayed focused more on the inner group issues, and then ANF was nothing but group vs group. Final Season had good set up but sadly it just turned into another group vs group storyline.
This is how I feel. Luckily Wolf is a game that overall is super well done so Im more forgiving to forgive plotholes, but its also important to note Wolf 1 didnt have nearly as many/major plot holes as later games did, but having it so its all finished means they can have a much more coherent plot. Doesnt really matter if they have an entire outline, sometimes it all sounds good until production and somethings wrong, doesnt flow correctly, or a plothole now becomes apparent. Unlike Old Telltale they can fix this before its ever released.
(I think the only time Telltale ever changed a past episode to fix a plothole was Tales from the Borderlands where they made it so Helios and the Moon were not visible in episode 1 during the future segments, but again thats a plothole they can actually fix up, they cant change the storyline in a past episode with the release of a new one)
That is so true really
I didn't know they changed directors. How much involvement did the original lead writer and director/the AdHoc crew have with season 1 after the first episode?
I can give the generic "us vs them" plot to both S2 and ANF because the writing wasn't good, they're both my least favorites in the series, didn't like them.
Personally, as long there's strong writing and characters I can enjoy, that's all matters to me and that's what TFS did for me compared to S2 & ANF.
This is all I'm gonna say about TWD, I don't want to get into an argument because then it will turn into an unnecessary debate, I don't care what anyone thinks about TFS, we all have our opinions on what we like and don't like and we should respect each other opinions.
The canon?
I think they should create their own canon version. I mean you already have the comics so what would be the point on following the exact same steps as the comic did? what would be the porpouse of the elections and mistery etc?
I have read the comics and I am not too crazy about them, I think they are interesting but TTG took the IP and turned it into a noir story which is super different from the comic and that was fantastic. There is absolutely nothing wrong with them creating their own canon=, universe etc.. using the IP
Altought I would prefer fror them to stick with the art direction of the first game, I am not very keen on the new bigby model.
I also hope they have the original writters because otherwise its going to be a completely different animal. Also Nerissa was absolute best girl.
The art direction is the same, the image you're talking about isnt the same as what this Wolf Among Us 2 is, so no chunky Bigby.
You know, you could have just made your entire comment without quoting/replying to my comment right?
But anyway:
Being canon does not mean "following the exact same steps as the comics did."
TWAU season 1 and upcoming season 2 are prequels to the comics, so being "canon" basically means events can still happen with the writers' original ideas, just with the condition that these ideas are bound by some restrictions/rules of the universe which were set up by the original source material (which in this case, is the main series comics, with rules such as Bigby & the Farm etc).
In addition to that, it also means after TWAU series ends (after however many seasons it may get with Telltale's rebirth), it will eventually end up where the comics begins in the first issue.
No offense in any way, but it seems like you're confused with the difference between concepts of "direct adaptation of the comic" (which is pretty much what you're referring to in your comment) & "canon."
The opinion about the comics in the community here is pretty much mixed. Some people like them, and some people don't really like them. I'd probably consider myself in the "Like them" group. Is the comics perfect? No it's not. It does have its own share of faults & issues. However, for me at least, those faults/issues are not enough to undermine the strengths & things which were great with them.
But I'm perfectly fine with someone saying it's not their cup of tea.
To be honest, part (but not all) of what I loved about TWAU season 1 was that I got to experience as Bigby who is very much the same Bigby, and the same Fables world from the comics. That fact made the game super-immersive to me (though others may feel about it differently).
So while I would still play it (if they break canon), I probably wouldn't love it as much if they went the "Alternate-Universe" or "Breaking-the-Canon" route (since for me it will be immersion breaking, though others may perhaps feel differently about it).
I agree with this. I think its smarter to stay canon to the comics and have some kind of barriers as it encourages much better solutions. It also really feels like (ive said this in other threads) that the 2 main reasons people want cannon to be broken is so Bigby can go to the farm and so Bigby and Snow can have a romance, however Id argue these 2 things not being allowed is for the better.
Bigby and the Farm. Its world building. In this world Bigby has a reputation and a repercussion of that is that he is feared in the community and unwanted so much so he is completely banned from an area of it. If he was allowed to just go on the Farm whenever it would be missing parts of this world built and also takes away from Bigby's character as Bigby. The thing is nothing is actually stopping Bigby from going to the Farm. Theres no magic holding him from stepping foot, its all based on trust in the system that he wont, which is important to Bigby's character as if he wanted he can easily take over Fabletown, but he doesnt, which is an important aspect of Bigby, his restraint- yet always having the control/power to do what he wants if he wanted. That idea is lost if theres no rules restraining him in the first place for him to break or uphold.
And its not like he cant go to the Farm in Season 2. If they want he can, but it would need to be held secret for whatever story reason, which becomes much more interesting than just "Bigby can go to the Farm whenever he wants to do whatever task needs to be done because theres no rule forbidding him."
For a Bigby and Snow romance. Again, it would take away a lot from this world and atmosphere if Snow and Bigby just got together. Its suppose to be an unhappy and depressing world Bigby lives in (In Wolf Among Us at least) and having it so Bigby and Snow are in this "will they wont they" but you know they never will adds to this depressing atmosphere. Theres a reason why at the end of Season 1 Bigby talks about how it seems no matter what he does its never enough for Snow or anyone, no matter what he does. A lot of atmosphere is just lost if they just got together. Bigby is meant to not feel appreciated or rewarded by anyone for his good deeds.
So overall I would say comic restrictions enhance Wolf Among Us by forbidding certain things.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I would say choosing their own adaptation would be the proper word, otherwise they will be forever bound to not do any development that goes beyond the comics.
for example I didnt like that cindy had to get crane in order to kroak him - same with bigby giving the order - in this case I like more how the TTG are written more than the fables comics.
It's like when a comicbook series or character is adapted to a different media, like Batman the animated series for example, yes it is similar but it doesnt follow strictly what happens in a certian series. Otherwise it would beat the whole porpouse of multiple choice and creating your own narrative etc.
I disagree with your opinion, because the comic itself its not a noir mistery/detective comic, its pure adventure and conflict. That means that at some point the game would stop being a noir detective series which is basically WAU, otherwise it may have just been named Fables the game. So if you want this to be strictly canon and follow the canon of the comics then you are doing the following:
Restraining the narrative
Spoiling the whole thing since the comic book readers already know what happens or which character is dead or not.
You already have the comic books so why the does the game have to be the same?
You are using a lot of conjecture to make your point on how things would carry out or be executed.
So they are not changing the art style to the more chunky look thing we saw? with bigby by a pool table.
What you're basically referring to is TTG basically making another completely different universe (i.e. Alternate universe) where player's Bigby can do whatever he wants to (without restrictions).
As I've already said in my above reply, doing that would basically make me lose interest (not completely, but considerably i must admit), because it just pretty much breaks all immersion with me in a lot of levels.
With Cindy reference, well Fables comics are supposed to be for mature readers. There's sex, nudity, violence etc. Cindy is basically Bigby's best spy/agent. She uses her every attribute/skills to accomplish her mission.
Yes, Bigby gave her the order. Not sure whether Bigby specifically gave the order to "Sleep" with Crane (I remember it as Bigby just telling Cindy to make sure to keep tabs on Crane, but it's been a while since I read the comics so I could be wrong), but even if he did, Cindy did it because she knew it had to be done for Fabletown.
And if my memory is correct, while she was disgusted with the fact that she was sleeping with Crane to keep tabs on him, we don't see her blaming Bigby for it, ever. In fact, she remains loyal to him to her very end.
But I don't see your reasoning in using that example. We're talking about things that were already established in the comics which would influence TWAU with its canon restrictions (like @Poogers555 mentioned, Bigby being forbidden to go to the farm, and Bigby shouldn't romance Snow, & if I would add one more, characters who are dead like Robin Hood shouldn't be appearing at all).
We're not talking about directly adapting the comics itself.
Your example using Batman the Animated Series has 2 flaws:
1) Batman (since creation) had over 50 years until BTAS (53 years in fact, since he first appeared in comics by Bill Finger & Bob Kane in 1939, & BTAS began in 1992), where there were already hundreds of writers rewriting about the character through all those years. Hence, the creators of the show had so many source materials (from different writers) to draw from, while bringing some of their own creations to light (e.g. Harley Quinn).
In contrast, Fables was solely created by Bill Willingham (who oversaw the entire comics, not just his main series, but also several spinoffs as well). Therefore, there is only one source material to draw from - Willingham's main series. Even TWAU season 1 (While remaining canon for most part) draws a lot from Willingham's main series, such as characters, & their relationships/interactions & so on (even though TWAU is a detective story, whereas Fables begins as Bigby's detective tale, & then expands into an ensemble story of all Fables).
2) Even with Batman (which had so many years of writers writing about the character), there are always some constants that can never be removed from the character - such as how his parents were murdered in the Crime Alley (which became the turning point in his life to become Batman). It basically became vital part of the Batman lore.
Same goes for Bigby. With him, I guess one of his turning points would be when his mother died & he realized he was too small to protect her remains from hungry predators (due to him being small). hence he began hunting bigger, and bigger animals to become bigger than all the rest (becoming the infamous "Big Bad Wolf"), where eventually all animal Fables became so terrified of him that they refused to have him with them (when they're all in the Mundy world) which Snow tells him when she recruits Bigby into Fabletown.
(Animals being terrified of Bigby, & him being forbidden to go to the Farm is also the reason why/how Bigby got his humanoid form - Farm wouldn't accept him, so Snow had no choice but to use the lycanthrope knife to cut him, so he can change between his human form to werewolf form to his true hulking wolf form, because he couldn't live in Fabletown in his wolf form.)
Actions have consequences, & with Bigby, it's due to his actions in the Homelands. And Bigby accepting this consequence (and not just doing as he wants to) is a big (if not vital) part of his character.
I'd explain why Bigby & Snow shouldn't be romancing as well (though Telltale giving us teases of "Will they or won't they" is alright I guess), but this has already been a really, really long reply, & Poogers already perfectly explained with his reply above (so I don't really have anything to add to his reply).
No one really knows what was truly up with that chunky Bigby, but dont worry as those are 100% not accurate to this version of Wolf 2. If you haven't seen the Wolf 2 trailer, here you go, as you can see its very much the same style
To be fair Wolf Among Us is a noir game because of the comics, it wasn't just Telltale's completely original idea. The early Fable's issues were very similar to Wolf Among Us, the first issue and volume is a murder mystery with Bigby- so the comics did inspire the idea of Wolf Among Us.
I also wouldnt say it restricts the narrative. The only thing Wolf 1 did that you would know the answer to is that Snow wasnt actually dead, most characters are new to Fables made by Telltale and are the ones used as suspects as well as focusing mostly on. Just went to the wiki and 11 characters are from the comics and 19 are from Wolf Among Us so theres purposely a large cast of characters that you wont know their fate and Wolf 2 will only expand both of these list, adding more to the Wolf cast and replacing and adding characters in the Comic cast.
Also I dont really see it as restraining the narrative. For the most part I would say its good they are there like I was saying earlier. The main focus is the mystery, as long as they make a mystery game that works, the narrative isnt restrained. For the most part these guardrails keep the atmosphere and themes in tact. A lot of people seem to want cannon removed so its less oppressive but thats kind of the point of the world, at the end of the day after helping everyone, no one likes you still as Bigby. Removing a lot of barriers that Bigby isnt allowed to do suddenly loses the point of how Bigby's life kinda sucks. And even then, I find it good as it leads to more interesting ideas with the concept. Take Snow and Bigby romance for example. If Telltale wants to, they could "start" a romance in this game where maybe Bigby and Snow are shown to get closer and closer until an event happens which gets in between them cutting out whatever spark was happening (which was already shown in season 1) so they could take that and go even further if they wanted, it just couldnt get to a point where it would break the cannon. And again I feel thats for the best and may work even more for the game's themes of you can never actually win, in this case you cant get Bigby into a happy relationship despite your best efforts.
Its a bit hard to explain exactly why I feel its for the best, but I feel it is. If you make stories and you never tell yourself you need to make limits for your characters and world, it gets boring as your character and story just becomes a pretty boring point A to point B story that is missing the "thats it" factor because "surprise" everything is just easy now.
Having some restrictions/rules in place due to canon I think pressures the writers to think creatively with their narratives while keeping in line with the canon (giving them good kind of pressure). But if they can do anything, I get the feeling they'll fall into lazy mode pretty quickly.
I think people who read the comics, but still wish for the future seasons to break canon are forgetting one vital fact - regardless of what one may think about it (whether good or bad), Willingham's comic series "Fables" did come first, & established the core lore & canon which basically became the backbone of TWAU, especially with characters like Bigby, Snow, Bufkin, Bluebeard, Woodsman, Jack, Crane, Beauty, Beast, Flycatcher, Grimble in season 1 (so without Fables, there wouldn't have been TWAU).
So it is weird seeing a bit of surge these days with some people saying "Let's break canon." Don't think I've noticed that before.
As someone in the "let's break canon" camp, I'll fully admit that it's because I'm not a fan of the comic and feel that Telltale's take on the world and these characters is more interesting and well-written than Bill Willingham's. Based on what we know about season 1's cut content, I think they had a lot of fascinating, creative ideas, especially the Brannigan stuff, and having the game be a canon prequel kind of screwed them on that front by putting a lot of creative constraints on them. Constraints they wouldn't have had if they made the game set in its own alternate universe parallel to the main one, like Batman.
Similarly, I feel like there are enough differences in tone and characterization for it to work as an AU. It's kind of a divisive subject, and I can already tell that some of you are going to disagree with me, but I'm sorry; I just don't see Telltale's Bigby and Willingham's Bigby as the same character. That's not just a good thing, that's a GREAT thing, Telltale's take on Bigby is amazing and turns a really shallow, insufferable character into a charismatic, sympathetic one. But he feels so different from his canon self in personality that he almost feels like a completely new character; again, much better suited to an AU.
tl;dr: I think they should just bite the bullet and have TWAU set in another universe, while still keeping the rules and basic premise of the original so the characters have purpose and limitations and the plot is stable, but they wouldn't have to worry about things like a major character who lives in the comics dying in this, or the Mundies finding out the truth about Fabletown, or anything that would alter the comic's story because it doesn't matter anymore. It's not like parallel universes don't exist in the comic. The Unwritten's crossover with Fables is about one, where Mr. Dark takes over New York City, corrupts one major character, and kills off the entire cast. If that could exist and be its own thing separate from continuity, why can't TWAU?
Out of curiosity, what are things you want to happen in season 2 but cant due to comic limitations?
Well, as someone who liked the comics, and is in the "Let's stay canon" camp, I'd have to say I wholeheartedly disagree (& could probably go on and on debating about this), but I have a feeling all that's gonna do is us going around in circles (and I feel like I've expressed more than enough of my thoughts on this matter).
So to you and everyone in the other camp, I'm just gonna say:
fwiw, I don't mind debating it in a friendly way. Just because I don't like the comic on the whole doesn't mean I don't like things about it, otherwise I wouldn't even be here. I like a lot of the characters, not just Bigby. I think whenever the action moves to the Homelands it gets especially interesting and it feels like an entirely different story. I especially like 1001 Nights of Snowfall; I think if the entire series had been up to that level of quality, I'd have a lot less issues with it.
It's just not my kind of comic. I really tried to get into it but I just couldn't. But just because I don't like it doesn't mean I can't understand why other people do. I don't begrudge them for it. I don't mind discussing the subject because I think the differences between the comic and game are fascinating and worth discussing, but if you already have your mind made up about that and anyone else in my "camp", I'm not gonna press it or waste the time. To each their own and all that.
The Farm thing is an obvious one, but we've done that one to death. Bigby chasing more suspects on foot and having these confrontations is another; I know in the comics it's mentioned very clearly that he's only had to chase Fables less than a handful of times, so that's definitely stopping Telltale from going crazy with the action sequences (not that they have to, but still.)
Also, certain characters showing up before they're canonically introduced, like Prince Charming who's in Europe up until the first volume, and Cindy who's busy fighting in Russia during the timeframe TWAU takes place. I mentioned this somewhere before, but it would also be cool to see flashbacks involving Bigby's mother, Winter, since she's such an important part of his character and there's so much you could explore with that, but I know there's some trepidation about using her in any context context considering how quickly she seems to die after Bigby is born, so without changing how she dies and why, they might have to bend continuity just a little to keep to alive long enough. And then there's the stuff with Brannigan of course.
idk, there's lots of stuff they could do. But since they're working with a strict timeline, they're a little limited.
I'm fine with that (it's different strokes for different folks).
It's just that I feel like I've stated pretty much what I wanted to say in the previous comments (and what Poogers said above in his replies, pretty much complements anything which are lacking from points I've made), that to add anything further would only be me repeating myself (sounding like a broken record).
Also, I've seen in some cases where others in heated debates can get out of hand (in other forums) , & always try to end my debates in civil manner.
Having said that, regardless of my feelings on which direction TWAU2 should go (in terms of the narrative), I can say without a doubt I am excited to see what new Telltale may possibly bring in terms of gameplay etc.
I really wouldnt worry about things like Bigby saying he's only chased people so many times it can be counted on one hand. I doubt Willingham is that willing to die on a hill like that where it can easily be chocked up to a figure of speech for Bigby saying Fabletown usually doesn't have problems.
I do agree that its a shame we probably wont see Charming but Im sure they could find an excuse for him to be in the story if they wanted him. iirc its never stated Charming had never been to Fabletown before so if they wanted they could have him appear stating he wanted to check the place out on a little vacation. But that being said, honestly Im not sure how Charming would fit in unless they changed his character completely seeing how in the comics he pretty much comes to Fabletown in order to get rich and make himself a leader there which is pretty much what Blue Beards role is in season 1, so even if they broke cannon to do that in Wolf 2, I dont really see a benefit for it as Blue Beard already has that role. I also dont think story or narative wise it makes much sense to visit Bigby's past with his mother, I dont see how it would add any narrative value to a story about Bigby in the 80s solving a mystery hundreds of years later.
With Charming, I think @HazzatheMan (he doesn't really come around the forums anymore, but I do talk with him every now and then on Facebook) mentioned to me at around time of TWAU, he's around in Europe swindling the royalies there (so yeah, canon restricts him in that regard).
One workaround with that could be that instead of him coming to Fabletown, it could be that Bigby is the one who meets him outside Fabletown, in Europe (since the new Telltale boss basically said that part of Season 2 will be outside Fabletown) where he visits to possibly find some clues & finds Charming with his schemes (could be a short segment like Bruce in Arkham for Batman Telltale season 1).