I don't hate Kenny, but I hate the fact that he doesn't have my back because I tried to save Larry. I personally think that the best solution to the meat locker situation would be to ask Kenny to stand over Larry with the salt lick, and if he sees Larry becoming zombified, then kill him. But, yeah. I asked him if he would be so eager to kill if it would be Katjaa or Duck. And he wouldn't have been. And that's understandable.
And if in Episode 3 Katjaa will be in danger of being dead and zombified, I'm sure as hell will try to save her first and not let Lilly kill her prematurely. Although I don't think that this will happen, but I do feel that sooner or later there's going to be a situation opposite to what happened in the meat locker, i.e. Kenny and Lilly will switch places. I want as many people to survive in the group as possible.
Jazzy, I don't think that was a game glitch. It's just that the Kenny doesn't accept the "We reason with him" option. He wants you to be 100% behind him, not trying to reason with people. He shows that in the barn scene.
Jazzy, I don't think that was a game glitch. It's just that the Kenny doesn't accept the "We reason with him" option. He wants you to be 100% behind him, not trying to reason with people. He shows that in the barn scene.
It's not a glitch or bug, it's a game design failure (I need to copyright this)
This means that the game designers (Most Telltale guys that post over here) decided THAT concrete answer would make the difference on siding Kenny or not instead the next one... which I think it's wrong. The proof it's Kenny saying that Lee wanted to throw Duck out if Lee said that Kenny should reason with Larry. This is not true.
This means that the game designers (Most Telltale guys that post over here) decided THAT concrete answer would make the difference on siding Kenny or not instead the next one... which I think it's wrong. The proof it's Kenny saying that Lee wanted to throw Duck out if Lee said that Kenny should reason with Larry. This is not true.
Yeah, that bugged me, that the 'we reason with him' was 'siding with Larry' at the end of Ep1... at first I thought it was a glitch, because at the end of Ep1 Kenny still added 'especially a good friend' after the 'no one dies today' line. But apparently, my Kenny forgot he ever said that in Ep2
I think it makes sense. Kenny is not only all the things I said before about him, but is also a hypocrite.
In my playthrough I saved Shawn, and later sided with Larry because it was their group and not ours (lies, I did it mostly because I officially hate Kenny). However I did fed Duck with the energy bar cause he is a kid after all and apparently Kenny is too dumb to look for food himself.
He blamed for not saving Duck twice. Then in episode 2 Kenny said I'm not welcomed to leave with him. After I fed Duck (Clem likes him, maybe), he said that I can go with him, after all.
Except for the small detail that with Kenny's whole "fix the RV and leave" plan, is a plan to abandon the group (as stated by Lee, Mark, and others). Kenny never extends an invitation for the group to join him, just Lee (and presumably even then only when on good terms). A plan that basically entails abandoning the group, isn't really of benefit to it. Even ignoring that sticky widget, when it comes to a survival situation, the thing that benefits the group most is unity of direction and purpose, splitting that focus (e.g. whether to stay to make the place liveable or bug out) results in lower chances of success for either direction.
As I said, after Katjaa's attacked, both Larry or Mark will help Lee with the walker in the pickup, Kenny never does (despite the fact he was there to get the news that the pickup patient dies). Considering the smallest guy in the group and the gray-haired old man can get there in time to try to help Lee atleast, that doesn't leave Kenny with much excuse for not even making an apparent attempt.
Also, Katjaa herself notes that she didn't see any bites on her patient after the attack, so odds are, they would've figured it out regardless of Ben's presence.
"As far as we know", the simple fact Lee brings up Larry's experience when questioned about the camp's leadership (and the fact we've seen Lilly defer to her father) implies that it has come up.
As I pointed out, while it's true they were trying to break into the pharmacy before Lee got there, it's a bit silly to say it was just for Larry's medication. Simply because odds are everybody's going to need stuff like antibiotics eventually so they don't die as a result of everyday injuries (cut yourself with a knife, hit your thumb with a hammer? All those are now potentially fatal events).
It's also kinda silly to blame Lily or Larry for not being all that trusting of people they don't know... Hell, even in a non-apocalyptic scenario you shouldn't let strangers stay the night your house where your family sleeps, pick up hitchhikers, etc. Seriously, out of the three groups of outsiders we see her encounter, one consists of cannibals. Even then, we see that she's a lot more willing to accept outsiders as long as they show they can contribute in advance (which neither Ben nor Lee's group did), and once they were there it's not like Lilly or Larry even attempted to kick their groups out (Lee and Duck being specific exceptions, since they thought Duck was bitten and Larry knew Lee was a convicted murderer).
I've already responded about the RV and the the Walker information on the last page, but I can sum up my argument here.
I think the decision to leave with the RV stems from the fact that Kenny was trying to convince the group that they need to leave the Motor Inn, but Lily is convincing the group with her opinion that they need to stay and keep the established routine. Kenny has therefore decided that he and his family are leaving no matter what. I didn't get the impression that he wouldn't take anyone who was willing to go with him. He even tells Lee at Hershel's Farm that he appreciates having people around who can help him "knock a few heads". I think once the motor home is finished, he will take anyone who wants to go, and not bother with anyone who wants to stay. Sure, he may be "splitting" the group, but I think it is obvious that there are other people who are just as guilty of this (notably, Larry, and somewhat Lily).
Besides, we know that the group is starving to death. Is it really in the best interest of the group to stay put and "hope" that they continue to find caches of food to sustain them? I mean, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride, but that is just not reality. So then is it smart for Kenny to then lock himself onto a group of people in the face of death from lack of food? Despite being a member of this group, he still has the safety of his family to consider, and the Motor Inn just isn't cutting it. Should anybody decide that he is right, I'm sure he wouldn't leave them to starve to death with those that wish to stay.
As for Ben, the value of his information is not the information itself, but that we get it sooner, rather than later. It is crucial to how we conduct ourselves now in this post-apocalyptic world, and it is better that we have it confirmed before we find ourselves in a situation that has the potential to be deadly. Katjaa only brings up her observation to give Ben's defense a leg up, because everyone else was jumping down his throat.
Again, with the walker attack, refer to the sequence of events. Katjaa calls Lee over, her and Lee are discussing alone. Mark and Larry are at the far end of the fence, Lily is on top of the motor home, and Kenny is on the other side of the motor home by the children (I don't remember where Doug was, but that's inconsequential, because he doesn't come anyway). Then the walker grabs Katjaa, and within a few seconds Lee frees her. He then turns to call to whomever he gave the axe to - we can clearly see that NO ONE ELSE is aware of the fact that the person turned into a walker. By the time Lee alerts everyone, he is grabbed. The people with the guns, Kenny and Lily, are useless in this situation, unless they want to risk hitting Lee with their bullets. The person with the axe is then the last line of defense, and even then can't kill the walker until Lee turns him over, at the risk of also injuring Lee. Had it been Kenny with the axe, he would have been the one to kill the walker. So your notion that Kenny wouldn't do anything to help is false. He COULDN'T do anything to help. There is a huge difference.
As for the pharmacy, the narrative and the dialogue makes it clear that they were in desperate need to get Larry his medication. I will not deny that there are other benefits to having access, but the fact of the matter is that without the Nitroglycerin, Larry was going to die sooner rather than later. Lily's focus is the immediate well-being of her father, not the potential treasure trove of medicine.
And for Larry's military experience, that is only proof that Lee knows about it, not an implication that he applies it to the groups survival. Lily is the only one we know FOR CERTAIN to have used her military knowledge to do something that directly benefits the group. Lily defers to her fathers opinion, but I have seen no evidence that she also looks to him to plan and organize. Quite the opposite, as we see Larry defending his daughter as being the one to make the "hard decisions", and be the leader of the group - he's not defending the fact that he should make the decisions, but rather his daughter is more qualified and what she has decided is right.
And I don't blame them for being wary of strangers, but it almost seems to be a sort of character flaw with them. The two of them apply their mistrust over zealously, and in the wrong situations. Example one, when we first meet them at the Pharmacy. There is a group outside(smaller, without noticeable weapons), with TWO SMALL CHILDREN, under immediate threat from Walkers. Larry and Lily vote not to save them. The natural course of action would have been to save those that you could, and keep them under watch until you can determine if the adults were any threat to you (Carly does have a gun, mind you). Then Larry makes a personal judgement on Lee's character, based upon Lee's pre-apocalyptic crime of passion (a little ironic, because I can imagine Larry to be the type of man who would beat a man to death for looking at his wife), despite Lee having directly helped him get his life-saving meds.
The next time this happens, it is a someone who is brought to camp, rescued in the woods, and the other person with him is on the brink of death. I really see no threat coming from Ben, other than the obvious strain on food, but certainly there are benefits to having him there, too? Like, another person to watch the Motor Inn and hunt, right? Besides, he's barely an adult, and Lily was seriously going to leave him and his unconscious friend to the wolves, over the food that already isn't enough to feed the group.
Then two adult men, armed, approach the Motor Inn, and she just tells them to leave...what now? Having an unarmed teenager come is more threatening to two men with rifles? Now is the only time that Lily acts correctly - she is willing to cooperate with the Brothers, but it wary of the sunshine and rainbows they are spouting. She is willing to trade gas for food, but doesn't want to move to the farm just yet. Larry, on the other hand? He starts smoozing with the Mother, without even so much as a thought to ask anyone else (possibly even his daughter) what they thought about the people or the place. Lily, of course, doesn't question her father, yet has the gall to call Kenny and Lee paranoid when they suspect something is off, despite her having the same distrust of the situation.
These two are making what might seem like pragmatic decisions, but for the wrong reasons. This is why I would much rather have Kenny on my side than either one of them.
Who the hell saved Larry? Once it came up as a possibility to kill him and Kenny was more than willing to do it, hell yeah I let him do it. First off Larry tried to kill me after I saved him, even though he tried to save me at the motor inn, it didn't matter because he missed with the axe so he still owed me plus interest. I think I went a little harsh in my game though, I declared myself as the leader, killed the woman in the woods, killed Danny, beat the shit out of his brother and then kicked him in the fence which fried him up, it was kind of a great scene, seeing how everyone looked on as I was becoming more vicious and seem to have frightened looks in their eyes. What to come of it, I'm not sure but it will be interesting. Kenny seems to have my back on the next episode..
Kenny can fuck right off, he seemed like a swell guy in episode 1 and I had him marked as one of the characters I would side with when the shit hit the fan. In episode 2 though I started to see a different side to Lily who had taken on a difficult role of keeping things organised and although I initialy disagreed with her ways I understood that she was doing what she thought was best for the group in spite of the reputation it had given her, Kenny on the other hand was seemingly just trying to play the power game without actually sticking any graft in.
I was starting to like Larry too as he let his guard down a few times in the episode and started to seem human, however him dying has freed up Lily and made her another outcast like the rest of us, we'll all look out for each other. Kenny, his fat mingin' wife and bent son can rot for all I care though.
@ Sisterofshane, I disagree with almost everything you said. I'm too lazy to respond to everything you said but I think this is very one sided way to look at it. So I will just respond to some of your statements.
So let's see... What is really Kenny doing as a leader? Besides wanting everything to be his way and always putting his family before others? Lilly rations the food and she gets the blame while Kenny... he fixes his RV so he can leave with his family. And no I don't think he will take just anyone with him.
What were Kenny's words while Lee was chopping the teachers leg? "Hurry, Lee, I'm WASTING ammo here." It's not "I'm running out of ammo" the emphasis is on "wasting". With him it's always about waste or gain.
When the walker attacked me, not only I saved his wife but he didn't even thank for it. Larry tried to save me, but Kenny didn't even react. And no, I don't think he didn't had the time or react or come.
I could forgive all that but the barn scene made me really despise him. Even if Larry was about to die, he just had no right to do it like that, especially not while we were giving him CPR. This was wrong on so many levels...
I got the impression that he did it not because Larry was dangerous (he wasn't! Even if he turned THAT fast, he would just been a heavy zombie who would need time to get off the ground. Enough time to kill him.) but because he wanted to end it faster so we can focus on his family. He completely disregarded Lilly's feelings.
And after that? Even if this is the only time Lee didn't agree with him (not everybody is so keen on killing fathers while their daughter are doing CPR, he just let's Lee die... no matter if Lee saved his kid, his wife and kept them fed. You tell me you would actually side with such a person? Seriously?
@ Downytax841 Who the hell didn't? You tell me you pulled Larry's daughter away from her father so that your cowardly "ally" Kenny can smash his head in front of her before Larry was even dead? You kept her away so that she can't do anything and you find it normal?
Maybe in the next episode there should be a scene where you get to pull Kenny away so that Lilly can smash Duck's head with something?
It should've been Lilly the one to end her zombie father (if he indeed died and reanimated) not some asshole, just because he couldn't waste time with other people's problems.
Brilliant post Yami. I have slowly realised what kind of A-level-type jackass we are dealing here with Kenny, I got hints of his behavior in episode 1, but episode 2 really showed what's he's about. He is so dead, I assure you.
@ Sisterofshane, I disagree with almost everything you said. I'm too lazy to respond to everything you said but I think this is very one sided way to look at it. So I will just respond to some of your statements.
So let's see... What is really Kenny doing as a leader? Besides wanting everything to be his way and always putting his family before others? Lilly rations the food and she gets the blame while Kenny... he fixes his RV so he can leave with his family. And no I don't think he will take just anyone with him.
What were Kenny's words while Lee was chopping the teachers leg? "Hurry, Lee, I'm WASTING ammo here." It's not "I'm running out of ammo" the emphasis is on "wasting". With him it's always about waste or gain.
When the walker attacked me, not only I saved his wife but he didn't even thank for it. Larry tried to save me, but Kenny didn't even react. And no, I don't think he didn't had the time or react or come.
I could forgive all that but the barn scene made me really despise him. Even if Larry was about to die, he just had no right to do it like that, especially not while we were giving him CPR. This was wrong on so many levels...
I got the impression that he did it not because Larry was dangerous (he wasn't! Even if he turned THAT fast, he would just been a heavy zombie who would need time to get off the ground. Enough time to kill him.) but because he wanted to end it faster so we can focus on his family. He completely disregarded Lilly's feelings.
And after that? Even if this is the only time Lee didn't agree with him (not everybody is so keen on killing fathers while their daughter are doing CPR, he just let's Lee die... no matter if Lee saved his kid, his wife and kept them fed. You tell me you would actually side with such a person? Seriously?
@ Downytax841 Who the hell didn't? You tell me you pulled Larry's daughter away from her father so that your cowardly "ally" Kenny can smash his head in front of her before Larry was even dead? You kept her away so that she can't do anything and you find it normal?
Maybe in the next episode there should be a scene where you get to pull Kenny away so that Lilly can smash Duck's head with something?
It should've been Lilly the one to end her zombie father (if he indeed died and reanimated) not some asshole, just because he couldn't waste time with other people's problems.
I really can't argue with someone who is intrinsically biased against Kenny and his behavior. (BTW aren't you the one in the thread about the Bag of Hammers that wants Kenny's family to die, as well? I would like to know what they did to you, other than being related to Kenny...)
As far as examples of Kenny's leadership, we can look to the Drug store for that. Lily steps down momentarily to take care of her Dad (as she should have, I'm not faulting her for this), and Kenny delegates jobs to the rest of the survives, and entertains the groups opinion (example, he listens to Glen's idea about finding more gas, and then agrees with him - he doesn't get butt hurt about Glen and Lee taking a beneficial initiative). He again asserts his authority when the Walker's overrun the drug store, telling three people to barricade the door, getting the children and Larry to safety in the office, and then getting his truck ready to get people evacuated. Also, he is the first one to suggest that they bunker down in the motor inn, to which Lily actually agrees. So he has good leadership skills when he is not in direct conflict with Lily and what she wants for the group.
Your perception of Kenny's character in episode 2 is just that - YOUR PERCEPTION. Picking apart one word of a sentence is not the primary indicator of someone's character. I could just as easily say that the word "wasted" is an indication of vocabulary usage of where he was raised. He never tries to save Katjaa because by the time the rest of the camp is alerted to danger, Katjaa is no longer in danger. He never thanks you because he is never given the chance - the St. John's show up to the scene almost immediately after Ben provides his information.
Besides, we don't really know for certain at what moment Larry was actually (or if he ever was) dead. You took the chance that he wasn't, but what if he was? How many more minutes do you have to wait to prove that he is? How much longer do you fiddle around with CPR, before he turns into a Walker, with both you and Lily within grabbing range? We don't know EXACTLY how the virus works, but we do know that Larry is clinically dead. Do you risk harm to yourself and others to satisfy some emotional need to save his life, when you are not sure exactly what it takes for the virus to take hold? Or do you feel that, in this certain case, that you cannot risk Larry turning just to appeal to morality?
Taking all of that into account, are you really going to judge Kenny's entire character based upon a brash decision made in an incredibly tense moment? Can you honestly guarantee that you would not make the same decision if you were placed in the exact same situation?
So apparently if you treat Kenny as a best bud in episode 1, but won't help him kill Larry in episode 2, then he treats you like you are his worst enemy. I just hope Telltale includes some scenes in episode 3 when he is relieved from his hatred and goes on normal terms with Lee.
So apparently if you treat Kenny as a best bud in episode 1, but won't help him kill Larry in episode 2, then he treats you like you are his worst enemy. I just hope Telltale includes some scenes in episode 3 when he is relieved from his hatred and goes on normal terms with Lee.
I hope for this too - I suspect tensions are just running high, and everybody's patience is tested. I don't agree with everyone's assessment that Kenny either never cared about you, or that he now hates you for one single moment.
If they don't allow for some sort of reconciliation, then I am calling character assassination on TTG.
Sisterofshane, no, he did have time to thank me, later at the farm. But he decided to remind me that I'm not backing him up enough.
As I said if Larry was indeed dead and was turning to zombie he would be on the ground and Kenny would have enough time to smash his head. However, he wanted everyone to spend their time on his family and not some trivial matters such as Lilly and her family.
Also if you note he is constantly remind Lee that he could care less about Lilly's decisions or opinions, while she calmly states that she tries to see things his way, she just can't. She never says "I could care less about what Kenny wants"
When I played the barn episode I did believe I could save Larry that's why I did it. Even if he was dead he wouldn't revive so fast. And even if for some brief moment we consider the possibility that he could, then I'm sure they could've handled it.
I realize why Lilly would let Lee die if you help Kenny, but I can't stand the way he would let Lee die if you don't back him up. Besides it's like he can save his family without Lee.
And no, I'm not biased. I used to like Kenny until episode 2. Now I just hope the developers allow me to banish him from my group or let him watch how Duck gets bitten or something even worse. If don't think Lee or anybody else owes him or his family anything. After all Lee did save his wife twice and his kid once/twice. He is a murderer and has no place in this group.
Taking all of that into account, are you really going to judge Kenny's entire character based upon a brash decision made in an incredibly tense moment? Can you honestly guarantee that you would not make the same decision if you were placed in the exact same situation?
i could honestly guarantee i'd wait until i knew 100% if someone turned into a zombie before killing them -- especially when it comes to cardiac arrest.
Sisterofshane, no, he did have time to thank me, later at the farm. But he decided to remind me that I'm not backing him up enough.
As I said if Larry was indeed dead and was turning to zombie he would be on the ground and Kenny would have enough time to smash his head. However, he wanted everyone to spend their time on his family and not some trivial matters such as Lilly and her family.
Also if you note he is constantly remind Lee that he could care less about Lilly's decisions or opinions, while she calmly states that she tries to see things his way, she just can't. She never says "I could care less about what Kenny wants"
When I played the barn episode I did believe I could save Larry that's why I did it. Even if he was dead he wouldn't revive so fast. And even if for some brief moment we consider the possibility that he could, then I'm sure they could've handled it.
I realize why Lilly would let Lee die if you help Kenny, but I can't stand the way he would let Lee die if you don't back him up. Besides it's like he can save his family without Lee.
And no, I'm not biased. I used to like Kenny until episode 2. Now I just hope the developers allow me to banish him from my group or let him watch how Duck gets bitten or something even worse. If don't think Lee or anybody else owes him or his family anything. After all Lee did save his wife twice and his kid once/twice. He is a murderer and has no place in this group.
Later at the farm he is more concerned with checking out the farm, just like everybody else. There's also the point that he might not even be aware that Katjaa was ever in danger - remember that NOBODY deviates from what they are doing specifically UNTIL Lee shouts for the person with the axe, and by that point Katjaa is out of harm's way. So I think we can stop assuming that he is ungrateful.
And you also assume that once Larry reanimates, that we THEN would be able to stop him. With what, can I ask? The only reason the salt block works is because he is not moving about - do you really think a walker is going to hold still while you aim to drop a heavy salt block on it's head, in such as manner as to smash it? Waiting until he comes back is not only impractical, but it is dangerous. Lily is kneeling right next to him, and I doubt she would EVER move away and stop performing CPR on him until he did turn.
Again, I have to ask you, exactly how long would you try to resuscitate him before you would believe him to be gone? Five minutes - ten minutes? Your last encounter with s corpse that turned into a walker took less than a few minutes from death to the time that it attacked you. Do you think that an extra minute of CPR would have been enough to convince Lily that her father was dead? Because I am convinced that an extra minute would have been plenty of time for a dead Larry to turn into a walker. And let's face it, with no way to restrain him and no sharp instruments to jam into his skull, stopping him before he hurt somebody at that point would have been impossible.
I also accept that saving his family may be one of the reasons that Kenny prefers to err on the side of caution, but I think your wrong in once again, assuming, that it is the only focus. You cannot deny that Kenny's assessment makes sense from a rational standpoint - if Larry turns into a Walker, you are going to have a bad time. I also accept that, from a moral and emotional stand point, that attempting to save Larry would be the right thing to do, up until you understand that you are attempting to survive the Zombie Apocalypse. RISK ASSESSMENT would be examining all outcomes and reasonably deciding what is the safest thing to do. In this situation we have three scenarios - Larry is dead but you stopped him from becoming a Walker, Larry is dead and he comes back as a Walker, and Larry is brought back alive. The longer you wait, you push yourself into having only two available options - Larry comes back as a Walker, and Larry is brought back alive. Is your safety worth it? Is Lily's safety worth it? Is Clementine's safety worth it?
And you empathize more with Lily at the loss of her father being a motivating factor, but really you gloss over Kenny's reasons, unfairly lumping him and her in the category of "You helped X, thus X saves you" situation. This is over generalizing exactly what happened. This is the way I see it - Lily is in no danger when she has the opportunity to save your life from the second Brother, and Kenny must risk his life to save you from the first. So who's moral standing is more questionable? Lily, who is willing to let you die because you "killed" her father, or Kenny, who is not willing to risk his life to save yours because you didn't support him?
And all of those things that you hate Kenny for? Guess what - you are just as guilty of them as he is. You are harshly judging him for one brash decision that he made under duress, and then retroactively change your previous assessment of him based on this one misgiving. I think that appropriately lumps you into the "fair weather friend" category.
i could honestly guarantee i'd wait until i knew 100% if someone turned into a zombie before killing them -- especially when it comes to cardiac arrest.
I respect you for that - lol and you already know that I deemed the situation to be too big of a risk to take!
im replaying episode 1 now, and i really believe this was a grudge killing. yeah, i believe kenny was legitimately scared but larry threatened to smash ducks head in when he thought he was bitten. is it just a coincidence that kenny smashed larry's head in the first chance he got?
Kenny just had a bad day at the cannibal farm alright? Cut the guy a break he gave you a ride to your hometown and saved your life when some dick tried to kill you.
Sisterofshane, this is so untrue. You can't just say that he didn't see Lee saving his wife. Even if he didn't I'm sure that she told him. That isn't something you hide, especially from your husband. At the farm he had time to tell Lee he is not a good friend, so he had time to say thank you as well. But he didn't.
And no, I don't assume anything. No zombie can jump on his feet right away. He would still be on the ground, not as mobile as you apparently believe. Not that hard to hit him with that salt-lick. Plus Lee and Lilly decided that they are willing to risk the possibility of a bite in order to save Larry. They are grown ups, they can choose for themselves. They didn't ask Kenny to risk his live right? But he just disregarded their choice and killed him in the most gruesome way. I can't really understand where does your passion to defend Kenny come from. As other people said before me with Kenny there is only 1 option - His way!
Even if Lilly or Lee were bitten, which I'm sure wouldn't have happened they wouldn't die right away and turn themselves. He wasn't protecting them and he wasn't protecting Clem. He just wanted to go out as soon as possible.
If you kill Lilly's father in such a way, it is quite natural that she wouldn't care what happens to you. But if you try to save a man, it there is no reason that would explain why Kenny wouldn't help you. Except the one that he is a spineless, egocentric asshole. There were no risk there. Danny was completely focused on Lee and had his back turned to Kenny.
P.S Sisterofshane, I suggest we give word to the people as well. We kinda hijacked the thread. So I'm backing away from this topic for a while
im replaying episode 1 now, and i really believe this was a grudge killing. yeah, i believe kenny was legitimately scared but larry threatened to smash ducks head in when he thought he was bitten. is it just a coincidence that kenny smashed larry's head in the first chance he got?
When Larry wanted to kill Duck, he was out of line. If he had been bitten, he was not going to immediately turn - there was no immediate danger from letting his mother actually check for a bite. He is physically smaller and weaker than everyone in that room but Clementine, and there were enough adults there that they could have handled the situation easily. When it's clear that people aren't going to let him get his way, he resorts to taunting and frightening them. He was a total jack ass in that situation.
Larry has one foot in the grave, and Kenny came off as calm, rational, and repentant. He apologizes to Lily several times over, and gives good reasons for why we need to take immediate action. He never threatens or attempts to belittle anybody in that situation. [Sarcasm] But no, maybe he killed Larry for some three month long grudge.[/sarcasm]
Sisterofshane, you seem to be one of the few rational people in here. A lot of what people are saying here is easier said than done.
Morality has it's place, and rationality has it's place. No one here is really wrong, but we're all approaching it from different angles.
I can guarantee you that most of these opinions would fly out of the window if these were real situations that we were exposed to. That's what I love about this game - how the human condition applies to a world turned upside down. If I had the money, I would totally invest in the comic.
Kenny just had a bad day at the cannibal farm alright? Cut the guy a break he gave you a ride to your hometown and saved your life when some dick tried to kill you.
i've saved his life more than he's saved mine. i've also saved his families life more than he's saved them.
You are becoming ridiculous. He apologized several times?! Who the fuck cares how many times he apologized... This is not something that you can just apologize for. And Kenny was anything but calm.
Lee: Look Kenny... Back at the drug store when we all taught Duck was bitten, I gave him the benefit of the doubt... Maybe we should do the same now.
Kenny: That was different, Duck wasn't bitten...
Really, how exactly did he know that back then. He never checked, a zombie fall on top of his son who was covered in mud and didn't utter a word. In my book Duck had a better chance of turning into a walker than Larry. Kenny is just a hypocrite.
Kenny: C'mon, we know this guys isn't going make it...
Really, do we know it? To me he tries to convince himself
And now the most important part. Go to 1:54 second and carefully watch how Larry's mouth moves because of Lee's CPR. Now at 1:58-1:59 you can clearly see how his mouth moved differently indicating that he might still be alive.
And even if that turned out false, it was Lilly and Lee's decision, and their lives at stake. Kenny can burn in hell for not respecting their choices!
When Larry wanted to kill Duck, he was out of line. If he had been bitten, he was not going to immediately turn - there was no immediate danger from letting his mother actually check for a bite. He is physically smaller and weaker than everyone in that room but Clementine, and there were enough adults there that they could have handled the situation easily. When it's clear that people aren't going to let him get his way, he resorts to taunting and frightening them. He was a total jack ass in that situation.
Larry has one foot in the grave, and Kenny came off as calm, rational, and repentant. He apologizes to Lily several times over, and gives good reasons for why we need to take immediate action. He never threatens or attempts to belittle anybody in that situation. [Sarcasm] But no, maybe he killed Larry for some three month long grudge.[/sarcasm]
he didn't come off as calm to me, or else he wouldn't have preemptively dropped a salt lick on a mans head. rational would be suggesting we tie his legs up. he also tells lee to "hurry the fuck up" when lee is trying to get them out of the meat locker. he then hides in the barn when you're attacked by danny. right, very repentant.
Don't go looking for a reward, my friend. You helped save his family because it was the right thing to do.
i agree, which is why "he gave you a ride to your hometown and saved your life when some dick tried to kill you" is no excuse to let kennys treachery slide.
well we can temporarily forget episode three trailer because sometimes you have to work to get the dialogue promised in it. in fact kaatja never chewed me out about the kids
i agree, which is why "he gave you a ride to your hometown and saved your life when some dick tried to kill you" is no excuse to let kennys treachery slide.
I'm curious. In what way did he betray you in your playthrough? I've pretty much sided with him the whole time.
Comments
And if in Episode 3 Katjaa will be in danger of being dead and zombified, I'm sure as hell will try to save her first and not let Lilly kill her prematurely. Although I don't think that this will happen, but I do feel that sooner or later there's going to be a situation opposite to what happened in the meat locker, i.e. Kenny and Lilly will switch places. I want as many people to survive in the group as possible.
It's not a glitch or bug, it's a game design failure (I need to copyright this)
This means that the game designers (Most Telltale guys that post over here) decided THAT concrete answer would make the difference on siding Kenny or not instead the next one... which I think it's wrong. The proof it's Kenny saying that Lee wanted to throw Duck out if Lee said that Kenny should reason with Larry. This is not true.
Yeah, that bugged me, that the 'we reason with him' was 'siding with Larry' at the end of Ep1... at first I thought it was a glitch, because at the end of Ep1 Kenny still added 'especially a good friend' after the 'no one dies today' line. But apparently, my Kenny forgot he ever said that in Ep2
In my playthrough I saved Shawn, and later sided with Larry because it was their group and not ours (lies, I did it mostly because I officially hate Kenny). However I did fed Duck with the energy bar cause he is a kid after all and apparently Kenny is too dumb to look for food himself.
He blamed for not saving Duck twice. Then in episode 2 Kenny said I'm not welcomed to leave with him. After I fed Duck (Clem likes him, maybe), he said that I can go with him, after all.
not a guarantee
Oh, yeah. I stand corrected.
CapnJay I guess we did similar playthroughs.
I've already responded about the RV and the the Walker information on the last page, but I can sum up my argument here.
I think the decision to leave with the RV stems from the fact that Kenny was trying to convince the group that they need to leave the Motor Inn, but Lily is convincing the group with her opinion that they need to stay and keep the established routine. Kenny has therefore decided that he and his family are leaving no matter what. I didn't get the impression that he wouldn't take anyone who was willing to go with him. He even tells Lee at Hershel's Farm that he appreciates having people around who can help him "knock a few heads". I think once the motor home is finished, he will take anyone who wants to go, and not bother with anyone who wants to stay. Sure, he may be "splitting" the group, but I think it is obvious that there are other people who are just as guilty of this (notably, Larry, and somewhat Lily).
Besides, we know that the group is starving to death. Is it really in the best interest of the group to stay put and "hope" that they continue to find caches of food to sustain them? I mean, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride, but that is just not reality. So then is it smart for Kenny to then lock himself onto a group of people in the face of death from lack of food? Despite being a member of this group, he still has the safety of his family to consider, and the Motor Inn just isn't cutting it. Should anybody decide that he is right, I'm sure he wouldn't leave them to starve to death with those that wish to stay.
As for Ben, the value of his information is not the information itself, but that we get it sooner, rather than later. It is crucial to how we conduct ourselves now in this post-apocalyptic world, and it is better that we have it confirmed before we find ourselves in a situation that has the potential to be deadly. Katjaa only brings up her observation to give Ben's defense a leg up, because everyone else was jumping down his throat.
Again, with the walker attack, refer to the sequence of events. Katjaa calls Lee over, her and Lee are discussing alone. Mark and Larry are at the far end of the fence, Lily is on top of the motor home, and Kenny is on the other side of the motor home by the children (I don't remember where Doug was, but that's inconsequential, because he doesn't come anyway). Then the walker grabs Katjaa, and within a few seconds Lee frees her. He then turns to call to whomever he gave the axe to - we can clearly see that NO ONE ELSE is aware of the fact that the person turned into a walker. By the time Lee alerts everyone, he is grabbed. The people with the guns, Kenny and Lily, are useless in this situation, unless they want to risk hitting Lee with their bullets. The person with the axe is then the last line of defense, and even then can't kill the walker until Lee turns him over, at the risk of also injuring Lee. Had it been Kenny with the axe, he would have been the one to kill the walker. So your notion that Kenny wouldn't do anything to help is false. He COULDN'T do anything to help. There is a huge difference.
As for the pharmacy, the narrative and the dialogue makes it clear that they were in desperate need to get Larry his medication. I will not deny that there are other benefits to having access, but the fact of the matter is that without the Nitroglycerin, Larry was going to die sooner rather than later. Lily's focus is the immediate well-being of her father, not the potential treasure trove of medicine.
And for Larry's military experience, that is only proof that Lee knows about it, not an implication that he applies it to the groups survival. Lily is the only one we know FOR CERTAIN to have used her military knowledge to do something that directly benefits the group. Lily defers to her fathers opinion, but I have seen no evidence that she also looks to him to plan and organize. Quite the opposite, as we see Larry defending his daughter as being the one to make the "hard decisions", and be the leader of the group - he's not defending the fact that he should make the decisions, but rather his daughter is more qualified and what she has decided is right.
And I don't blame them for being wary of strangers, but it almost seems to be a sort of character flaw with them. The two of them apply their mistrust over zealously, and in the wrong situations. Example one, when we first meet them at the Pharmacy. There is a group outside(smaller, without noticeable weapons), with TWO SMALL CHILDREN, under immediate threat from Walkers. Larry and Lily vote not to save them. The natural course of action would have been to save those that you could, and keep them under watch until you can determine if the adults were any threat to you (Carly does have a gun, mind you). Then Larry makes a personal judgement on Lee's character, based upon Lee's pre-apocalyptic crime of passion (a little ironic, because I can imagine Larry to be the type of man who would beat a man to death for looking at his wife), despite Lee having directly helped him get his life-saving meds.
The next time this happens, it is a someone who is brought to camp, rescued in the woods, and the other person with him is on the brink of death. I really see no threat coming from Ben, other than the obvious strain on food, but certainly there are benefits to having him there, too? Like, another person to watch the Motor Inn and hunt, right? Besides, he's barely an adult, and Lily was seriously going to leave him and his unconscious friend to the wolves, over the food that already isn't enough to feed the group.
Then two adult men, armed, approach the Motor Inn, and she just tells them to leave...what now? Having an unarmed teenager come is more threatening to two men with rifles? Now is the only time that Lily acts correctly - she is willing to cooperate with the Brothers, but it wary of the sunshine and rainbows they are spouting. She is willing to trade gas for food, but doesn't want to move to the farm just yet. Larry, on the other hand? He starts smoozing with the Mother, without even so much as a thought to ask anyone else (possibly even his daughter) what they thought about the people or the place. Lily, of course, doesn't question her father, yet has the gall to call Kenny and Lee paranoid when they suspect something is off, despite her having the same distrust of the situation.
These two are making what might seem like pragmatic decisions, but for the wrong reasons. This is why I would much rather have Kenny on my side than either one of them.
Lol, it's a LOT of information to digest, but I like to make sure I cover my arguments logically.
I was starting to like Larry too as he let his guard down a few times in the episode and started to seem human, however him dying has freed up Lily and made her another outcast like the rest of us, we'll all look out for each other. Kenny, his fat mingin' wife and bent son can rot for all I care though.
So let's see... What is really Kenny doing as a leader? Besides wanting everything to be his way and always putting his family before others? Lilly rations the food and she gets the blame while Kenny... he fixes his RV so he can leave with his family. And no I don't think he will take just anyone with him.
What were Kenny's words while Lee was chopping the teachers leg? "Hurry, Lee, I'm WASTING ammo here." It's not "I'm running out of ammo" the emphasis is on "wasting". With him it's always about waste or gain.
When the walker attacked me, not only I saved his wife but he didn't even thank for it. Larry tried to save me, but Kenny didn't even react. And no, I don't think he didn't had the time or react or come.
I could forgive all that but the barn scene made me really despise him. Even if Larry was about to die, he just had no right to do it like that, especially not while we were giving him CPR. This was wrong on so many levels...
I got the impression that he did it not because Larry was dangerous (he wasn't! Even if he turned THAT fast, he would just been a heavy zombie who would need time to get off the ground. Enough time to kill him.) but because he wanted to end it faster so we can focus on his family. He completely disregarded Lilly's feelings.
And after that? Even if this is the only time Lee didn't agree with him (not everybody is so keen on killing fathers while their daughter are doing CPR, he just let's Lee die... no matter if Lee saved his kid, his wife and kept them fed. You tell me you would actually side with such a person? Seriously?
@ Downytax841 Who the hell didn't? You tell me you pulled Larry's daughter away from her father so that your cowardly "ally" Kenny can smash his head in front of her before Larry was even dead? You kept her away so that she can't do anything and you find it normal?
Maybe in the next episode there should be a scene where you get to pull Kenny away so that Lilly can smash Duck's head with something?
It should've been Lilly the one to end her zombie father (if he indeed died and reanimated) not some asshole, just because he couldn't waste time with other people's problems.
yep. im guessing it will be the wife. even though i personally want it to be duck
I really can't argue with someone who is intrinsically biased against Kenny and his behavior. (BTW aren't you the one in the thread about the Bag of Hammers that wants Kenny's family to die, as well? I would like to know what they did to you, other than being related to Kenny...)
As far as examples of Kenny's leadership, we can look to the Drug store for that. Lily steps down momentarily to take care of her Dad (as she should have, I'm not faulting her for this), and Kenny delegates jobs to the rest of the survives, and entertains the groups opinion (example, he listens to Glen's idea about finding more gas, and then agrees with him - he doesn't get butt hurt about Glen and Lee taking a beneficial initiative). He again asserts his authority when the Walker's overrun the drug store, telling three people to barricade the door, getting the children and Larry to safety in the office, and then getting his truck ready to get people evacuated. Also, he is the first one to suggest that they bunker down in the motor inn, to which Lily actually agrees. So he has good leadership skills when he is not in direct conflict with Lily and what she wants for the group.
Your perception of Kenny's character in episode 2 is just that - YOUR PERCEPTION. Picking apart one word of a sentence is not the primary indicator of someone's character. I could just as easily say that the word "wasted" is an indication of vocabulary usage of where he was raised. He never tries to save Katjaa because by the time the rest of the camp is alerted to danger, Katjaa is no longer in danger. He never thanks you because he is never given the chance - the St. John's show up to the scene almost immediately after Ben provides his information.
Besides, we don't really know for certain at what moment Larry was actually (or if he ever was) dead. You took the chance that he wasn't, but what if he was? How many more minutes do you have to wait to prove that he is? How much longer do you fiddle around with CPR, before he turns into a Walker, with both you and Lily within grabbing range? We don't know EXACTLY how the virus works, but we do know that Larry is clinically dead. Do you risk harm to yourself and others to satisfy some emotional need to save his life, when you are not sure exactly what it takes for the virus to take hold? Or do you feel that, in this certain case, that you cannot risk Larry turning just to appeal to morality?
Taking all of that into account, are you really going to judge Kenny's entire character based upon a brash decision made in an incredibly tense moment? Can you honestly guarantee that you would not make the same decision if you were placed in the exact same situation?
I hope for this too - I suspect tensions are just running high, and everybody's patience is tested. I don't agree with everyone's assessment that Kenny either never cared about you, or that he now hates you for one single moment.
If they don't allow for some sort of reconciliation, then I am calling character assassination on TTG.
As I said if Larry was indeed dead and was turning to zombie he would be on the ground and Kenny would have enough time to smash his head. However, he wanted everyone to spend their time on his family and not some trivial matters such as Lilly and her family.
Also if you note he is constantly remind Lee that he could care less about Lilly's decisions or opinions, while she calmly states that she tries to see things his way, she just can't. She never says "I could care less about what Kenny wants"
When I played the barn episode I did believe I could save Larry that's why I did it. Even if he was dead he wouldn't revive so fast. And even if for some brief moment we consider the possibility that he could, then I'm sure they could've handled it.
I realize why Lilly would let Lee die if you help Kenny, but I can't stand the way he would let Lee die if you don't back him up. Besides it's like he can save his family without Lee.
And no, I'm not biased. I used to like Kenny until episode 2. Now I just hope the developers allow me to banish him from my group or let him watch how Duck gets bitten or something even worse. If don't think Lee or anybody else owes him or his family anything. After all Lee did save his wife twice and his kid once/twice. He is a murderer and has no place in this group.
i could honestly guarantee i'd wait until i knew 100% if someone turned into a zombie before killing them -- especially when it comes to cardiac arrest.
Later at the farm he is more concerned with checking out the farm, just like everybody else. There's also the point that he might not even be aware that Katjaa was ever in danger - remember that NOBODY deviates from what they are doing specifically UNTIL Lee shouts for the person with the axe, and by that point Katjaa is out of harm's way. So I think we can stop assuming that he is ungrateful.
And you also assume that once Larry reanimates, that we THEN would be able to stop him. With what, can I ask? The only reason the salt block works is because he is not moving about - do you really think a walker is going to hold still while you aim to drop a heavy salt block on it's head, in such as manner as to smash it? Waiting until he comes back is not only impractical, but it is dangerous. Lily is kneeling right next to him, and I doubt she would EVER move away and stop performing CPR on him until he did turn.
Again, I have to ask you, exactly how long would you try to resuscitate him before you would believe him to be gone? Five minutes - ten minutes? Your last encounter with s corpse that turned into a walker took less than a few minutes from death to the time that it attacked you. Do you think that an extra minute of CPR would have been enough to convince Lily that her father was dead? Because I am convinced that an extra minute would have been plenty of time for a dead Larry to turn into a walker. And let's face it, with no way to restrain him and no sharp instruments to jam into his skull, stopping him before he hurt somebody at that point would have been impossible.
I also accept that saving his family may be one of the reasons that Kenny prefers to err on the side of caution, but I think your wrong in once again, assuming, that it is the only focus. You cannot deny that Kenny's assessment makes sense from a rational standpoint - if Larry turns into a Walker, you are going to have a bad time. I also accept that, from a moral and emotional stand point, that attempting to save Larry would be the right thing to do, up until you understand that you are attempting to survive the Zombie Apocalypse. RISK ASSESSMENT would be examining all outcomes and reasonably deciding what is the safest thing to do. In this situation we have three scenarios - Larry is dead but you stopped him from becoming a Walker, Larry is dead and he comes back as a Walker, and Larry is brought back alive. The longer you wait, you push yourself into having only two available options - Larry comes back as a Walker, and Larry is brought back alive. Is your safety worth it? Is Lily's safety worth it? Is Clementine's safety worth it?
And you empathize more with Lily at the loss of her father being a motivating factor, but really you gloss over Kenny's reasons, unfairly lumping him and her in the category of "You helped X, thus X saves you" situation. This is over generalizing exactly what happened. This is the way I see it - Lily is in no danger when she has the opportunity to save your life from the second Brother, and Kenny must risk his life to save you from the first. So who's moral standing is more questionable? Lily, who is willing to let you die because you "killed" her father, or Kenny, who is not willing to risk his life to save yours because you didn't support him?
And all of those things that you hate Kenny for? Guess what - you are just as guilty of them as he is. You are harshly judging him for one brash decision that he made under duress, and then retroactively change your previous assessment of him based on this one misgiving. I think that appropriately lumps you into the "fair weather friend" category.
I respect you for that - lol and you already know that I deemed the situation to be too big of a risk to take!
And no, I don't assume anything. No zombie can jump on his feet right away. He would still be on the ground, not as mobile as you apparently believe. Not that hard to hit him with that salt-lick. Plus Lee and Lilly decided that they are willing to risk the possibility of a bite in order to save Larry. They are grown ups, they can choose for themselves. They didn't ask Kenny to risk his live right? But he just disregarded their choice and killed him in the most gruesome way. I can't really understand where does your passion to defend Kenny come from. As other people said before me with Kenny there is only 1 option - His way!
Even if Lilly or Lee were bitten, which I'm sure wouldn't have happened they wouldn't die right away and turn themselves. He wasn't protecting them and he wasn't protecting Clem. He just wanted to go out as soon as possible.
If you kill Lilly's father in such a way, it is quite natural that she wouldn't care what happens to you. But if you try to save a man, it there is no reason that would explain why Kenny wouldn't help you. Except the one that he is a spineless, egocentric asshole. There were no risk there. Danny was completely focused on Lee and had his back turned to Kenny.
P.S Sisterofshane, I suggest we give word to the people as well. We kinda hijacked the thread. So I'm backing away from this topic for a while
When Larry wanted to kill Duck, he was out of line. If he had been bitten, he was not going to immediately turn - there was no immediate danger from letting his mother actually check for a bite. He is physically smaller and weaker than everyone in that room but Clementine, and there were enough adults there that they could have handled the situation easily. When it's clear that people aren't going to let him get his way, he resorts to taunting and frightening them. He was a total jack ass in that situation.
Larry has one foot in the grave, and Kenny came off as calm, rational, and repentant. He apologizes to Lily several times over, and gives good reasons for why we need to take immediate action. He never threatens or attempts to belittle anybody in that situation. [Sarcasm] But no, maybe he killed Larry for some three month long grudge.[/sarcasm]
EDIT: @Yami, I can agree to disagree.
Morality has it's place, and rationality has it's place. No one here is really wrong, but we're all approaching it from different angles.
I can guarantee you that most of these opinions would fly out of the window if these were real situations that we were exposed to. That's what I love about this game - how the human condition applies to a world turned upside down. If I had the money, I would totally invest in the comic.
i've saved his life more than he's saved mine. i've also saved his families life more than he's saved them.
Now let's watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPR3qrMrqVs
Lee: Look Kenny... Back at the drug store when we all taught Duck was bitten, I gave him the benefit of the doubt... Maybe we should do the same now.
Kenny: That was different, Duck wasn't bitten...
Really, how exactly did he know that back then. He never checked, a zombie fall on top of his son who was covered in mud and didn't utter a word. In my book Duck had a better chance of turning into a walker than Larry. Kenny is just a hypocrite.
Kenny: C'mon, we know this guys isn't going make it...
Really, do we know it? To me he tries to convince himself
And now the most important part. Go to 1:54 second and carefully watch how Larry's mouth moves because of Lee's CPR. Now at 1:58-1:59 you can clearly see how his mouth moved differently indicating that he might still be alive.
And even if that turned out false, it was Lilly and Lee's decision, and their lives at stake. Kenny can burn in hell for not respecting their choices!
he didn't come off as calm to me, or else he wouldn't have preemptively dropped a salt lick on a mans head. rational would be suggesting we tie his legs up. he also tells lee to "hurry the fuck up" when lee is trying to get them out of the meat locker. he then hides in the barn when you're attacked by danny. right, very repentant.
Don't go looking for a reward, my friend. You helped save his family because it was the right thing to do.
i agree, which is why "he gave you a ride to your hometown and saved your life when some dick tried to kill you" is no excuse to let kennys treachery slide.
I'm curious. In what way did he betray you in your playthrough? I've pretty much sided with him the whole time.