I am curious as to what some people who expected Clem to be an NPC were expecting Clem to do from what Lee taught her. Clem the pacifist vs. C… morelem the ice-cold killer, depending on how Lee behaved, with correspondingly wild changes in plotline? Clem goes to the country if you tell her to do so, but doesn't do so if you don't tell her, again wildly changing the plotline? Clem gets in contact with Omid and Christa if you tell her to do so and doesn't if you don't?
I love TWD...but the 'your choices change the story' thing has always been exaggerated. Very likely, whether playable or not, Clem was going to end up doing roughly the same things except with changed dialogue and reactions. Very likely that's exactly what's still going to happen.
Why can't changes in dialogue and reaction change when she's your character?
For some reason, there seems to be widespread acceptance here that children are programmable automatons: insert instructions and obedience ensues. What if Lee was a pacifist sort, but over the months after his death the harshness of her environment makes you decide to play Clem as much colder than Lee wished her to be? Or the reverse: what if Lee was a borderline sociopathic prick and you choose to make Clem behave decently as a sort of rebellion against his worst impulses?
What if, in behaving in ways Lee didn't instruct her to behave, the game acknowledges that fact in dialogue and behavior when you make those kinds of choices and shows why Clem chooses to ignore what Lee told her in any given circumstance and how it affects her that she's going against her former guardian's teachings?
"NPC were expecting Clem to do from what Lee taught her, with correspondingly wild changes in plotline?"
I think you just answered your own… more question, and in all honesty i wasn't expecting a "wild change" but at least slightly different dialogues, long/short hairt and small details like those.
We'll have to wait and see how telltale handles the choices from the first season and 400 days affect season 2.
Why can't changes in dialogue and reaction change when she's your character?
For some reason, there seems to be widespread acceptance here … morethat children are programmable automatons: insert instructions and obedience ensues. What if Lee was a pacifist sort, but over the months after his death the harshness of her environment makes you decide to play Clem as much colder than Lee wished her to be? Or the reverse: what if Lee was a borderline sociopathic prick and you choose to make Clem behave decently as a sort of rebellion against his worst impulses?
What if, in behaving in ways Lee didn't instruct her to behave, the game acknowledges that fact in dialogue and behavior when you make those kinds of choices and shows why Clem chooses to ignore what Lee told her in any given circumstance and how it affects her that she's going against her former guardian's teachings?
I belong in the camp that DON'T want to play Clem as a protagonist, but yeah, I'll give it a try.
The reason for that is that anytime you get a team/squad/group going, one will be the leader (in the first season this was essentially Lee and Kenny vs Lilly) and this is good, because it is the player who is supposed to make the decisions. But Clem is a child, and there is no way we can have a group going where a kid calls the shots. That is unless we have a solo adventure with Clem, which I highly doubt, considering the game is about building relationships.
I agree completely, I'd rather we play as Omid, Molly, or someone who knew Clem before. It just doesn't feel right to play her, regardless of how much I loved her.
I don't know. Maybe we could have played as one of the 400 Days protagonists? But I think season 1 would have had a bigger impact if we saw how Clem evolved with Lee's teachings as a NPC, not someone we can control.
I belong in the camp that DON'T want to play Clem as a protagonist, but yeah, I'll give it a try.
The reason for that is that anytime you g… moreet a team/squad/group going, one will be the leader (in the first season this was essentially Lee and Kenny vs Lilly) and this is good, because it is the player who is supposed to make the decisions. But Clem is a child, and there is no way we can have a group going where a kid calls the shots. That is unless we have a solo adventure with Clem, which I highly doubt, considering the game is about building relationships.
I sense much railroading in the future.
Im going to love this game, dont get me wrong. But i could allways see myself as Lee, roleplay is a good thing. Can i see myself as a little kid? Im 28 years old, playing a child will be strange. If i want to swear, i want to be able to swear, not let some adult tell me to hush. So i see peoples points they are making.
I'm guessing in this discussion about Clem and protagonist there's four groups: Don't care, Don't like it, Love it, Hoping for something else but i'll try it.
I'm in the last group, at first I though "oh really? :S" but now I'm thinking, we have already played with an adult that everyoen respected, season 2 had to be the same style of game but diferente, so I'm guessing playing with a charatcher that no one respect and that you have to make her show them who's boss will be fun too"
If it is Kenny, he took a cue from Clementine and "kept his hair short" by cutting off most of his mullet. And if it was Kenny, I doubt that Clem would look suspicious around him (she knows how much Kenny cares about children, and was on good terms with him while they where In a group.
Apart from handing out food, I don't think Lee made too many decisions as an acting leader. He could interject about group decisions, like going to the dairy or staying at the inn, but most of the important choices that he follows through on were the ones that were spur of the moment.
Deciding who you trust? Deciding who to save?
There could be a lot of scenarios where Clementine's age won't be the issue.
I belong in the camp that DON'T want to play Clem as a protagonist, but yeah, I'll give it a try.
The reason for that is that anytime you g… moreet a team/squad/group going, one will be the leader (in the first season this was essentially Lee and Kenny vs Lilly) and this is good, because it is the player who is supposed to make the decisions. But Clem is a child, and there is no way we can have a group going where a kid calls the shots. That is unless we have a solo adventure with Clem, which I highly doubt, considering the game is about building relationships.
I sense much railroading in the future.
While I like the idea of creating your own character in many games, it would delay the release dates of following episodes, unless they made it like Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic I and II where the character faces were predesigned. If it was like Mass Effect's customization, an importer would possibly be necessary to import your custom characters from episode to episode. Plus, I think I would hate having to create my character every single time I wanted to play the game. This is just my opinion why custom characters would be a hassle.
"She'll die a little girl if you treat her like one. You gotta consider her a living person. That's it. You're either living or you're not. You ain't little, you ain't a girl, you ain't a boy, you ain't strong or smart. You're alive."
Actually what I was going to say, but decided to read the comments first. With playing as Lee, we made decisions and the group either agreed or disagreed, causing us to feel like a leader with who agreed to follow. On the other hand, since we're Clem,a little girl, if she suggests decisions, the adults could just tell her to be quiet. How, as a player that used to have a voice, would we feel if that happened? I for one would be pissed and, if I really wanted to and the option presented itself, go against the morale decisions I made playing as Lee. In all honesty, I dunno what I expected Season Two to contain, but I'm trusting Telltale.
I'm guessing in this discussion about Clem and protagonist there's four groups: Don't care, Don't like it, Love it, Hoping for something else … morebut i'll try it.
I'm in the last group, at first I though "oh really? :S" but now I'm thinking, we have already played with an adult that everyoen respected, season 2 had to be the same style of game but diferente, so I'm guessing playing with a charatcher that no one respect and that you have to make her show them who's boss will be fun too"
gotta love people thumbs down comments that dont matches with the opinions they have .
everyone will try the game ( love it , hate it, dont care ) , the thing is no one has to love the idea of playing a little kid when you had a guy like Lee in Season 1. Sure its TTG , they will make it work somehow , but we dont have to be CLEMENTINE LOVERS like some guys .
thumbs down agai, i dont care but learn to respect an opinion.
Actually as Lee I remember making pretty immoral decisions because that's my personality, and don't mind getting over others to get what I want... Of what I remember I killed everyone that was agaisnt me except for the first brothr from the farm, and I wasn't going to kill the second one but he made fun of me so I couldn't resist :P
I only tought things before acting against members of my own group, like Larry and Ben ( I didn't killed any of them), so I guess I'll make the same choices will Clem and that will show everyone not to mess with her. But I'm in the first year of my masters degree in college so I don't know if I'll have time when the game comes out...
Actually what I was going to say, but decided to read the comments first. With playing as Lee, we made decisions and the group either agreed o… morer disagreed, causing us to feel like a leader with who agreed to follow. On the other hand, since we're Clem,a little girl, if she suggests decisions, the adults could just tell her to be quiet. How, as a player that used to have a voice, would we feel if that happened? I for one would be pissed and, if I really wanted to and the option presented itself, go against the morale decisions I made playing as Lee. In all honesty, I dunno what I expected Season Two to contain, but I'm trusting Telltale.
Okay, I am on both side of the fence on this one. First, I am liking the ability to play a kid character, it's going to be INSANELY fun just by imagining the interaction alone. However, I don't like that the teaching to Clementine doesn't seem so impactful at all. All that "Clementine will remember this" and months of wait just flashes away, it's hard to not feel sad about this. I will say this first just to clarify thing, I view myself as a true RPer that I am willing to play a kid character and even a true elder so I have no problem playing Clementine, I just disliked that choice.
Now this might be long, but let me explain my view. First and foremost, the straight argument is that it seems like it is just playing with our emotion, for Clem is like a child to us and we are looking forward to revisit her and see how she has grown throughout the time. I want to see her grow up, see how my teaching are affecting her instead of BEING her myself. Part of the fun of a game, especially one that has an roleplay element, is to see how other character develops on their own. Part of the fun for tabletop RPG(to me) is that we are merely viewing the growth of other player's characters and not have direct input on them. If one is familar with The Elder Scrolls series, there's the Vilja companion mod, in which I am pretty sure many have liked based on the the number of downloads. Instead of like the usual game NPC, Vilja is like a real human to the player, a true companion that actually has soul. Now, I view Clementine as even better than Vilja, for not only she has soul but potentially I can see how she grow based on my choice, it's definitely not something you will get in another game. And I get now is that I am playing at her. I don't get to interact with her anymore, I can't see her as a reflection on my method of how I play Lee in season 1 anymore -- The Stranger is like a reflection of the player's decisions and it's fun, I do like to see Clementine being said reflection in season 2. It has so much potential, to interact with your own reflection of season 1, in season 2.
Now, "how do you expect Telltales to do it then, smartass?". Personally, I see the relationship of Lee-Clementine in s1 as a "mentor-student" relationship. In season 2, we can have a "peer" relationship with Clementine. Give us a teenager(think Carl) and have us working with Clementine on a more equal level, as brother and sister per say. This idea fulfill everyone's request to play a younger character. You see, Clementine isn't the only kid out there, you don't have to play Clementine to play a kid character, it's a flawed logic to defend the decision of playing Clementine as main character. Playing as another kid(be it male or female) is the same as playing Clementine when dealing with other characters because they are both kids and will receive similar perceptions from the others. The plus side of playing another kid is that we get to interact with Clementine once more and it's OUR Clementine, shaped by us in season 1. It's like watching how my kid survived after I have died(from the perspective of Lee) and then interact with them with another character. I don't know about you all but that's absolutely fun for me. That way We get the full effect of our s1 teaching -- she is an absolute killer if we taught her that way or she can be a pacifist and try to tell our s2 kid character not to kill people.
To counter the "new guy" argument, like it or not there will be a barrage of new characters. Also, we have connections with Clementine, shouldn't she be another NPC so we at least share connection with ONE character(her) instead of playing HER and then share connection with NONE? Because everyone is new if we play as her, how is that not worst?
Another flaw of playing as Clementine is that it breaks character unless I follow her character based on how Lee taught her in s1, and that's not really playing a game because I have to forced myself upon some choices if I do it that way. Playing another character then I can do whatever I want, and continue to see Clementine react to those things. She can be grown up now, she can be as bad-ass as s4 Carl, I just don't see that the player has to control her for her to be bad-ass, she can be a bad-ass as an NPC.
Alright, rants over. I am not ranting because I dislike the game, it's quite the opposite because I really like the game, a lot and constant improvement is important. The game can't improve if everyone just go "play and shut up", opinions need to be heard to truly improve a game. I also don't disagree that playing Clementine and this will suck. If the writing is good, it's obviously going to be good. But, maybe playing another character will get this game to a 90%(in my view) but playing Clementine might only fulfill 85% of the game's potential. It's still great, it's 85% but I just feel that it can still go higher.
Now I am just hoping they at least have some "shaping" of dialogues or some smaller tidbits for Clementine based on s1's choices.
Except that for the people with doubts about Clem as playable character (the most) don't have a problem with playing a little girl. At least I don't. I have doubts because Clems character is set and is now stripped of her free will, so to speak.
The player helped building her character. And now it looks like that won't matter because the player gets to make the decisions for her.
(I don't buy the possibility that the choices themselves are different depending on the choices in season 1, although it is certainly something that could be made: Like make 6 possible actions at a decision-point, and then depending on the first season just show 4 of them, that would fit the character of that particular Clementine)
So playing a kid is no problem. For me at least. But I'm sceptical about playing that particular kid.
On the other hand, TTG deserves a little trust. And I think they will make it great. They showed that they can make great stories and what not. Just the first reaction from me (and others) is "I wouldn't have chosen her as playable character"
Nicely put. Bravo. I would like to play a kid as well. That's not the problem. But now MY Clementine ist replaced by me. In a way you could say "Clementine" won't be in the second season at all.
Okay, I am on both side of the fence on this one. First, I am liking the ability to play a kid character, it's going to be INSANELY fun just b… morey imagining the interaction alone. However, I don't like that the teaching to Clementine doesn't seem so impactful at all. All that "Clementine will remember this" and months of wait just flashes away, it's hard to not feel sad about this. I will say this first just to clarify thing, I view myself as a true RPer that I am willing to play a kid character and even a true elder so I have no problem playing Clementine, I just disliked that choice.
Now this might be long, but let me explain my view. First and foremost, the straight argument is that it seems like it is just playing with our emotion, for Clem is like a child to us and we are looking forward to revisit her and see how she has grown throughout the time. I want to see her grow up, see how my teaching are affecting her instead of BEING her myself. … [view original content]
I agree. I didnt want to see a retread of Clementine is being protected by an adult. This will put an interesting spin on things. Being able to get in the head of a child who is growing up in this environment will be really compelling.
Assuming that's Kenny in the photo, Clem could be regarding him suspiciously because he's half-crazed. After losing his family and almost being eaten alive, I'd be surprised if Kenny wasn't a little...off. Maybe Clem is overjoyed upon seeing one other survivor besides herself from S1, only to find out Kenny's missing a few of his marbles, hence the look on her face.
Then again, it could be a different character altogether.
If it is Kenny, he took a cue from Clementine and "kept his hair short" by cutting off most of his mullet. And if it was Kenny, I doubt that C… morelem would look suspicious around him (she knows how much Kenny cares about children, and was on good terms with him while they where In a group.
Yeah, Kaserkin. I'm going to have to side with you on this. While I love Clem, it would be a little confusing and awkward, considering how limited her dialogue options would be, as well as the inevitable GAME OVER. YOU ARE DEAD. scenes that will come up. If I cringed during Clem's non-canon death in episode 3, I wouldn't be a fan of the Game Over screens in season two. Lee's were amusing, though.
However, I'm going to give the season the benefit of the doubt and play through the first episode to see how it'll be.
My greatest fear as become true. Why did you do this to me Telletale? Why? I loved Clem, but I don't think I'll enjoy playing as a pre-teenaged girl, no matter how cool and sweet she was/sill is.
Yeah, Kaserkin. I'm going to have to side with you on this. While I love Clem, it would be a little confusing and awkward, considering how lim… moreited her dialogue options would be, as well as the inevitable GAME OVER. YOU ARE DEAD. scenes that will come up. If I cringed during Clem's non-canon death in episode 3, I wouldn't be a fan of the Game Over screens in season two. Lee's were amusing, though.
However, I'm going to give the season the benefit of the doubt and play through the first episode to see how it'll be.
True but your playing a mature game as a child and I think that is a step back. All the things we were hoping TTG would explore are zilch. I doubt there will be any romantic interaction. Your not going to be the bad ass leader of a group as a child. All the adult lee conversations are out the window.
I feel like playing as Clem would have been fine but only here and there like they did in the last of us.
I don't know why this Clem thing upsets so many of you. You're argueing like "where's the logic in teaching Clem things if you can do with her what you want?". I see it a bit different: You were playing as Clems guardian in the role of Lee - now that he's gone the player is taking the role of Clems guardian. YOU are her inner voice now, her memory, her rationality. The way you decide affects Clementines future. Some of you might want remembering her as a cute innocent little girl and don't want her to experience these awful things so directly. You can't imagine how horrible it is when she's freezing, when she's starving, trying to hunt, looking for survival kit in dangerous places, being too small to reach things, physical inferiority - to sum up: you don't want her to loose her innocence PLUS you don't want to be weak but some kind of a hero. But this is what the universe of TWD is about: it's a horrible ungrateful world, no matter who you are. Playing as Clem is such a fresh opportunity and a good compensation to the mainstream videogames we are offered. Playing as Clem will be REAL survival. I am so curious what life is like from the children's point of view and I applaud TellTale for the courage to take this path. Clems character is so much deeper than any of the 400 days guys. It must be a hard piece of shit to write her story so well that it appeals to every ones taste, but I am convinced they'll do it best! I had been afraid season 2 would become a copy of the first season and I am so glad it won't. Can't wait to play it.
EDIT: Also, we got enough games with zombie-ramboeing badasses. If you want badass, we got Bigby running simultaneously, so, nothing escapes you.
Lee stayed with Clem for what, four months? She also had parents before that, which I assume put their mark on her as well, but still it's Lee's tutoring and watching that will form the personality of her. I don't buy that.
My main concern is that she is, no matter how else you put it, a child. A child is always led, never the leader (and anything else is just romantic BS, and ´that trope has been used unfortunately by my favourite author Stephen King). Sure, it might be fun to experience the apocalypse through the eyes of a kid, but exciting? When Lee ran out of bullets he could use his trusted fire axe; Clem will have to rely on running away.
And lets not forget that Lee (or anyone else for that matter ) was not a badass. Mowing down zombies with impunity has been done to death (no pun intended) in other games, but TWD was never about that. It was about building relations.
And here we have another problem. A person only build relations up to his equal (it is called child-adult-boss IIRC), where an equal relationship is only built with others of the same stance - a child gets an equal relationship with another child, but is in an inferior position to an adult or boss, a adult builds an equal relationship to another adult, but is inferior to his boss, and finally, a boss builds an equal relationship to another boss, and is superior to adults and children. It is all about power here.
Clem will never have an equal relationship with anyone not of her age, and unfortunately, this is a game about relationships.
I don't know why this Clem thing upsets so many of you. You're argueing like "where's the logic in teaching Clem things if you can do with her… more what you want?". I see it a bit different: You were playing as Clems guardian in the role of Lee - now that he's gone the player is taking the role of Clems guardian. YOU are her inner voice now, her memory, her rationality. The way you decide affects Clementines future. Some of you might want remembering her as a cute innocent little girl and don't want her to experience these awful things so directly. You can't imagine how horrible it is when she's freezing, when she's starving, trying to hunt, looking for survival kit in dangerous places, being too small to reach things, physical inferiority - to sum up: you don't want her to loose her innocence PLUS you don't want to be weak but some kind of a hero. But this is what the universe of TWD is about: it's a horrible ungrateful world, no matter who you are. … [view original content]
True but your playing a mature game as a child and I think that is a step back. All the things we were hoping TTG would explore are zilch. I d… moreoubt there will be any romantic interaction. Your not going to be the bad ass leader of a group as a child. All the adult lee conversations are out the window.
I feel like playing as Clem would have been fine but only here and there like they did in the last of us.
My main concern is that she is, no matter how else you put it, a child. A child is always led, never the leader
Why do we always have to be the leader, anyway? To feel superior?
When Lee ran out of bullets he could use his trusted fire axe; Clem will have to rely on running away.
Clem proved herself in Season 1 several times, she's a good shot. She may be weak, but she's small, can hide easier but first and foremost she's clever, which is the best survival skill.
And lets not forget that Lee (or anyone else for that matter ) was not a badass. Mowing down zombies with impunity has been done to death (no pun intended) in other games
I said that because many of the grumblers here were demanding a badass protagonist like "Why not Molly? She's badass!" or "Clem is too weak, I wanna kill some zombies!"
Clem will never have an equal relationship with anyone not of her age, and unfortunately, this is a game about relationships.
I disagree, just from my personal experiences. You are right saying the game is about building relationships. But wasn't the relationship between Lee and Clem one of the best in spite of the age difference? Clem proved she has something even a lot of adults lack: social and emotional intelligence, which makes her more mature than other kids. I don't think they'll serve us childish dialogs.
Anyway, I won't blame them for their decision at all. If they asked us before season 1 if we'd like to play as an .. ummm.. "urban" convicted murderer some people just would've said 'No', but now that it's released nobody doubts their decision because it was so well written. I can't imagine they'll blow it this time.
Lee stayed with Clem for what, four months? She also had parents before that, which I assume put their mark on her as well, but still it's Lee… more's tutoring and watching that will form the personality of her. I don't buy that.
My main concern is that she is, no matter how else you put it, a child. A child is always led, never the leader (and anything else is just romantic BS, and ´that trope has been used unfortunately by my favourite author Stephen King). Sure, it might be fun to experience the apocalypse through the eyes of a kid, but exciting? When Lee ran out of bullets he could use his trusted fire axe; Clem will have to rely on running away.
And lets not forget that Lee (or anyone else for that matter ) was not a badass. Mowing down zombies with impunity has been done to death (no pun intended) in other games, but TWD was never about that. It was about building relations.
And here we have another problem. A person only build relations… [view original content]
Apart from handing out food, I don't think Lee made too many decisions as an acting leader. He could interject about group decisions, like goi… moreng to the dairy or staying at the inn, but most of the important choices that he follows through on were the ones that were spur of the moment.
Deciding who you trust? Deciding who to save?
There could be a lot of scenarios where Clementine's age won't be the issue.
Apart from handing out food, I don't think Lee made too many decisions as an acting leader. He could interject about group decisions, like goi… moreng to the dairy or staying at the inn, but most of the important choices that he follows through on were the ones that were spur of the moment.
Deciding who you trust? Deciding who to save?
There could be a lot of scenarios where Clementine's age won't be the issue.
Two points here. First and foremost, the reason the player (aka the protagonist) should always be the leader is because of control: the player should always feel like s/he is the one in control of what's happening. One example here is Alyx Vance of Half-Life 2 fame. She was originally made as quite pushy, always wanting Freeman (aka the player) to hurry up. This was NOT appreciated by the test players who wanted to explore the world at their own pace, and thus she was remade as a follower instead of a leader.
A player always lead, otherwise its railroading. And in TWD, Lee (aka the player) led - you could take your time exploring stuff until you were ready to move on. Case in point: After the crash which set off Lee's adventure, you (aka Lee) could stand behind the car and shout at the dead cop for hours, and nothing would happen. When you actually did move forward, stuff happened because you were in control and had actually taken that decision.
Regarding Lee's and Clem's relationship then, they had exactly the type of relationship I described earlier: just because Clem actually is quite smart for her age doesn't take away the fact that Lee was the one raising her, deciding where they would go and so on ("Can I have it back?" "Not now Clem"). Having power over someone doesn't make the relationship bad, because then every single parent-child relationship would be bad.
My main concern is that she is, no matter how else you put it, a child. A child is always led, never the leader
Why do we always have … moreto be the leader, anyway? To feel superior?
When Lee ran out of bullets he could use his trusted fire axe; Clem will have to rely on running away.
Clem proved herself in Season 1 several times, she's a good shot. She may be weak, but she's small, can hide easier but first and foremost she's clever, which is the best survival skill.
And lets not forget that Lee (or anyone else for that matter ) was not a badass. Mowing down zombies with impunity has been done to death (no pun intended) in other games
I said that because many of the grumblers here were demanding a badass protagonist like "Why not Molly? She's badass!" or "Clem is too weak, I wanna kill some zombies!"
Clem will never have an equal relationship with anyone not of her age, and unfortunately, this is a game about… [view original content]
This would be why I have a niggling suspicion Season 2 is going to have a lot less to do with a single fixed group and lot more to do with Clem specifically. I suspect, in line with one of Lee's last possible pieces of advice, that Clem is going to want to keep moving, even if whatever given group she's with at any given time has no such intentions.
In other words, the struggle for leadership won't matter as much because Clem has no interest in either leading or being led. She just does what she needs to survive and keeps a careful distance from whichever group she's with. But I suppose we'll see.
Two points here. First and foremost, the reason the player (aka the protagonist) should always be the leader is because of control: the player… more should always feel like s/he is the one in control of what's happening. One example here is Alyx Vance of Half-Life 2 fame. She was originally made as quite pushy, always wanting Freeman (aka the player) to hurry up. This was NOT appreciated by the test players who wanted to explore the world at their own pace, and thus she was remade as a follower instead of a leader.
A player always lead, otherwise its railroading. And in TWD, Lee (aka the player) led - you could take your time exploring stuff until you were ready to move on. Case in point: After the crash which set off Lee's adventure, you (aka Lee) could stand behind the car and shout at the dead cop for hours, and nothing would happen. When you actually did move forward, stuff happened because you were in control and had actually taken that decisio… [view original content]
Warde summed it up for me there. As the player, I want a good amount of control on what happens with regards to the plot in a game like this. Playing Clem will realistically take this away from me, which doesn't make me too happy.
I kind of think playing as Bonnie or Shel would have opened up a lot more doors, but oh well. I'll probably like the game when it comes out nevertheless.
Two points here. First and foremost, the reason the player (aka the protagonist) should always be the leader is because of control: the player… more should always feel like s/he is the one in control of what's happening. One example here is Alyx Vance of Half-Life 2 fame. She was originally made as quite pushy, always wanting Freeman (aka the player) to hurry up. This was NOT appreciated by the test players who wanted to explore the world at their own pace, and thus she was remade as a follower instead of a leader.
A player always lead, otherwise its railroading. And in TWD, Lee (aka the player) led - you could take your time exploring stuff until you were ready to move on. Case in point: After the crash which set off Lee's adventure, you (aka Lee) could stand behind the car and shout at the dead cop for hours, and nothing would happen. When you actually did move forward, stuff happened because you were in control and had actually taken that decisio… [view original content]
Called it! I knew Clem would be our protagonist (there's a reason she remembered things Lee said and did) and I'm glad. Bringing in a new character to control just wouldn't feel right. Lee taught Clementine and now she has to take everything he taught her effect. I'm not sure why people are upset by this. You're effectively her inner voice and will no doubt have to make decisions over whether you trust someone or not. Remember it will use our season 1 save so I'm pretty sure there will be dialogue options linking back to what Lee said and did in season 1!
It's like Chuck says "There ain't too young not any more. You gotta consider her a living person. That's it. You're either living or you're not. You ain't little, you ain't a girl, you ain't a boy, You ain't strong or smart, You're alive."
Your forced to grow up quick in a zombie apocalypse and Clem's a smart girl, Lee's taught her well so I'm sure telltale will do this justice.
Called it! I knew Clem would be our protagonist (there's a reason she remembered things Lee said and did) and I'm glad. Bringing in a new cha… moreracter to control just wouldn't feel right. Lee taught Clementine and now she has to take everything he taught her effect. I'm not sure why people are upset by this. You're effectively her inner voice and will no doubt have to make decisions over whether you trust someone or not. Remember it will use our season 1 save so I'm pretty sure there will be dialogue options linking back to what Lee said and did in season 1!
It's like Chuck says "There ain't too young not any more. You gotta consider her a living person. That's it. You're either living or you're not. You ain't little, you ain't a girl, you ain't a boy, You ain't strong or smart, You're alive."
Your forced to grow up quick in a zombie apocalypse and Clem's a smart girl, Lee's taught her well so I'm sure telltale will do this justice.
Let's all just sit back, take a breath, and realize that playing as Clementine was the only way this was going to pan out. Because if we played as yet another surrogate mother or father figure to Clementine, two things were going to happen.
The first is that it would trivialize Lee. If we become someone who once again has to guide Clem through an undead minefield, then Lee Everett becomes a man who is incomplete; his goal of either trying to preserve or strip away Clementine's principles in the face of certain death passed on to someone else after his demise. Lee Everett was a dynamite character, and having him function as a stepping stone to another protagonist would do him a disservice. Plus, having another protagonist would add a degree of removal. This way, WE have to be the people that Lee hoped Clementine would be. WE have to be as good as our words.
The second, and more practical outcome, is that if we have to keep guiding ad rescuing Clementine, then we're going to start resenting her sooner or later. Her jeopardy can't keep moving the plot forward, because if it does, we will eventually turn on her. Clementine is one of the best written child characters I've seen in any medium, and it would suck beyond belief if she fell into the same Annoying Hindrance bin as (ugh) Dawn Summers.
Plus, hey. When was the last time we played a video game where the lead was a nine-year-old girl in the zombie apocalypse? "Never," that's when.
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be skepticism. Something like this hasn't been tried before. But there should be excitement too. And for the exact same reason.
Comments
I thought I'd be very excited about today's news. Now, I just miss Lee more.
Why can't changes in dialogue and reaction change when she's your character?
For some reason, there seems to be widespread acceptance here that children are programmable automatons: insert instructions and obedience ensues. What if Lee was a pacifist sort, but over the months after his death the harshness of her environment makes you decide to play Clem as much colder than Lee wished her to be? Or the reverse: what if Lee was a borderline sociopathic prick and you choose to make Clem behave decently as a sort of rebellion against his worst impulses?
What if, in behaving in ways Lee didn't instruct her to behave, the game acknowledges that fact in dialogue and behavior when you make those kinds of choices and shows why Clem chooses to ignore what Lee told her in any given circumstance and how it affects her that she's going against her former guardian's teachings?
"For some reason, there seems to be widespread acceptance here that children are programmable automatons"
Also lee is urban.
I belong in the camp that DON'T want to play Clem as a protagonist, but yeah, I'll give it a try.
The reason for that is that anytime you get a team/squad/group going, one will be the leader (in the first season this was essentially Lee and Kenny vs Lilly) and this is good, because it is the player who is supposed to make the decisions. But Clem is a child, and there is no way we can have a group going where a kid calls the shots. That is unless we have a solo adventure with Clem, which I highly doubt, considering the game is about building relationships.
I sense much railroading in the future.
I agree completely, I'd rather we play as Omid, Molly, or someone who knew Clem before. It just doesn't feel right to play her, regardless of how much I loved her.
I agree with you. Clem is still a kid and that is how people would perceive her - as a kid. Not a savior.
Damn, Lee, I miss you man!
Im going to love this game, dont get me wrong. But i could allways see myself as Lee, roleplay is a good thing. Can i see myself as a little kid? Im 28 years old, playing a child will be strange. If i want to swear, i want to be able to swear, not let some adult tell me to hush. So i see peoples points they are making.
I'm guessing in this discussion about Clem and protagonist there's four groups: Don't care, Don't like it, Love it, Hoping for something else but i'll try it.
I'm in the last group, at first I though "oh really? :S" but now I'm thinking, we have already played with an adult that everyoen respected, season 2 had to be the same style of game but diferente, so I'm guessing playing with a charatcher that no one respect and that you have to make her show them who's boss will be fun too"
If it is Kenny, he took a cue from Clementine and "kept his hair short" by cutting off most of his mullet. And if it was Kenny, I doubt that Clem would look suspicious around him (she knows how much Kenny cares about children, and was on good terms with him while they where In a group.
Apart from handing out food, I don't think Lee made too many decisions as an acting leader. He could interject about group decisions, like going to the dairy or staying at the inn, but most of the important choices that he follows through on were the ones that were spur of the moment.
Deciding who you trust? Deciding who to save?
There could be a lot of scenarios where Clementine's age won't be the issue.
While I like the idea of creating your own character in many games, it would delay the release dates of following episodes, unless they made it like Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic I and II where the character faces were predesigned. If it was like Mass Effect's customization, an importer would possibly be necessary to import your custom characters from episode to episode. Plus, I think I would hate having to create my character every single time I wanted to play the game. This is just my opinion why custom characters would be a hassle.
Pre-teen is a bit generous. Pre-tween sounds about right. After all, she's only 9.
The best answer to the detractor of Clementine being the main character and by far !!!
And it works for the Clementine fans too !!!
Actually what I was going to say, but decided to read the comments first. With playing as Lee, we made decisions and the group either agreed or disagreed, causing us to feel like a leader with who agreed to follow. On the other hand, since we're Clem,a little girl, if she suggests decisions, the adults could just tell her to be quiet. How, as a player that used to have a voice, would we feel if that happened? I for one would be pissed and, if I really wanted to and the option presented itself, go against the morale decisions I made playing as Lee. In all honesty, I dunno what I expected Season Two to contain, but I'm trusting Telltale.
gotta love people thumbs down comments that dont matches with the opinions they have .
everyone will try the game ( love it , hate it, dont care ) , the thing is no one has to love the idea of playing a little kid when you had a guy like Lee in Season 1. Sure its TTG , they will make it work somehow , but we dont have to be CLEMENTINE LOVERS like some guys .
thumbs down agai, i dont care but learn to respect an opinion.
Actually as Lee I remember making pretty immoral decisions because that's my personality, and don't mind getting over others to get what I want... Of what I remember I killed everyone that was agaisnt me except for the first brothr from the farm, and I wasn't going to kill the second one but he made fun of me so I couldn't resist :P
I only tought things before acting against members of my own group, like Larry and Ben ( I didn't killed any of them), so I guess I'll make the same choices will Clem and that will show everyone not to mess with her. But I'm in the first year of my masters degree in college so I don't know if I'll have time when the game comes out...
However they wrote it, whoever the protagonist is, it's going to be an excellent story.
Okay, I am on both side of the fence on this one. First, I am liking the ability to play a kid character, it's going to be INSANELY fun just by imagining the interaction alone. However, I don't like that the teaching to Clementine doesn't seem so impactful at all. All that "Clementine will remember this" and months of wait just flashes away, it's hard to not feel sad about this. I will say this first just to clarify thing, I view myself as a true RPer that I am willing to play a kid character and even a true elder so I have no problem playing Clementine, I just disliked that choice.
Now this might be long, but let me explain my view. First and foremost, the straight argument is that it seems like it is just playing with our emotion, for Clem is like a child to us and we are looking forward to revisit her and see how she has grown throughout the time. I want to see her grow up, see how my teaching are affecting her instead of BEING her myself. Part of the fun of a game, especially one that has an roleplay element, is to see how other character develops on their own. Part of the fun for tabletop RPG(to me) is that we are merely viewing the growth of other player's characters and not have direct input on them. If one is familar with The Elder Scrolls series, there's the Vilja companion mod, in which I am pretty sure many have liked based on the the number of downloads. Instead of like the usual game NPC, Vilja is like a real human to the player, a true companion that actually has soul. Now, I view Clementine as even better than Vilja, for not only she has soul but potentially I can see how she grow based on my choice, it's definitely not something you will get in another game. And I get now is that I am playing at her. I don't get to interact with her anymore, I can't see her as a reflection on my method of how I play Lee in season 1 anymore -- The Stranger is like a reflection of the player's decisions and it's fun, I do like to see Clementine being said reflection in season 2. It has so much potential, to interact with your own reflection of season 1, in season 2.
Now, "how do you expect Telltales to do it then, smartass?". Personally, I see the relationship of Lee-Clementine in s1 as a "mentor-student" relationship. In season 2, we can have a "peer" relationship with Clementine. Give us a teenager(think Carl) and have us working with Clementine on a more equal level, as brother and sister per say. This idea fulfill everyone's request to play a younger character. You see, Clementine isn't the only kid out there, you don't have to play Clementine to play a kid character, it's a flawed logic to defend the decision of playing Clementine as main character. Playing as another kid(be it male or female) is the same as playing Clementine when dealing with other characters because they are both kids and will receive similar perceptions from the others. The plus side of playing another kid is that we get to interact with Clementine once more and it's OUR Clementine, shaped by us in season 1. It's like watching how my kid survived after I have died(from the perspective of Lee) and then interact with them with another character. I don't know about you all but that's absolutely fun for me. That way We get the full effect of our s1 teaching -- she is an absolute killer if we taught her that way or she can be a pacifist and try to tell our s2 kid character not to kill people.
To counter the "new guy" argument, like it or not there will be a barrage of new characters. Also, we have connections with Clementine, shouldn't she be another NPC so we at least share connection with ONE character(her) instead of playing HER and then share connection with NONE? Because everyone is new if we play as her, how is that not worst?
Another flaw of playing as Clementine is that it breaks character unless I follow her character based on how Lee taught her in s1, and that's not really playing a game because I have to forced myself upon some choices if I do it that way. Playing another character then I can do whatever I want, and continue to see Clementine react to those things. She can be grown up now, she can be as bad-ass as s4 Carl, I just don't see that the player has to control her for her to be bad-ass, she can be a bad-ass as an NPC.
Alright, rants over. I am not ranting because I dislike the game, it's quite the opposite because I really like the game, a lot and constant improvement is important. The game can't improve if everyone just go "play and shut up", opinions need to be heard to truly improve a game. I also don't disagree that playing Clementine and this will suck. If the writing is good, it's obviously going to be good. But, maybe playing another character will get this game to a 90%(in my view) but playing Clementine might only fulfill 85% of the game's potential. It's still great, it's 85% but I just feel that it can still go higher.
Now I am just hoping they at least have some "shaping" of dialogues or some smaller tidbits for Clementine based on s1's choices.
Except that for the people with doubts about Clem as playable character (the most) don't have a problem with playing a little girl. At least I don't. I have doubts because Clems character is set and is now stripped of her free will, so to speak.
The player helped building her character. And now it looks like that won't matter because the player gets to make the decisions for her.
(I don't buy the possibility that the choices themselves are different depending on the choices in season 1, although it is certainly something that could be made: Like make 6 possible actions at a decision-point, and then depending on the first season just show 4 of them, that would fit the character of that particular Clementine)
So playing a kid is no problem. For me at least. But I'm sceptical about playing that particular kid.
On the other hand, TTG deserves a little trust. And I think they will make it great. They showed that they can make great stories and what not. Just the first reaction from me (and others) is "I wouldn't have chosen her as playable character"
Nicely put. Bravo. I would like to play a kid as well. That's not the problem. But now MY Clementine ist replaced by me. In a way you could say "Clementine" won't be in the second season at all.
Telltale will write the story, so they will not forget what she learned when with Lee.
I agree. I didnt want to see a retread of Clementine is being protected by an adult. This will put an interesting spin on things. Being able to get in the head of a child who is growing up in this environment will be really compelling.
Assuming that's Kenny in the photo, Clem could be regarding him suspiciously because he's half-crazed. After losing his family and almost being eaten alive, I'd be surprised if Kenny wasn't a little...off. Maybe Clem is overjoyed upon seeing one other survivor besides herself from S1, only to find out Kenny's missing a few of his marbles, hence the look on her face.
Then again, it could be a different character altogether.
Yeah, Kaserkin. I'm going to have to side with you on this. While I love Clem, it would be a little confusing and awkward, considering how limited her dialogue options would be, as well as the inevitable GAME OVER. YOU ARE DEAD. scenes that will come up. If I cringed during Clem's non-canon death in episode 3, I wouldn't be a fan of the Game Over screens in season two. Lee's were amusing, though.
However, I'm going to give the season the benefit of the doubt and play through the first episode to see how it'll be.
Lee's were just hilarious. Especially in Episode 5 when you fail to make the jump from the bell tower. LOL.
True but your playing a mature game as a child and I think that is a step back. All the things we were hoping TTG would explore are zilch. I doubt there will be any romantic interaction. Your not going to be the bad ass leader of a group as a child. All the adult lee conversations are out the window.
I feel like playing as Clem would have been fine but only here and there like they did in the last of us.
I don't know why this Clem thing upsets so many of you. You're argueing like "where's the logic in teaching Clem things if you can do with her what you want?". I see it a bit different: You were playing as Clems guardian in the role of Lee - now that he's gone the player is taking the role of Clems guardian. YOU are her inner voice now, her memory, her rationality. The way you decide affects Clementines future. Some of you might want remembering her as a cute innocent little girl and don't want her to experience these awful things so directly. You can't imagine how horrible it is when she's freezing, when she's starving, trying to hunt, looking for survival kit in dangerous places, being too small to reach things, physical inferiority - to sum up: you don't want her to loose her innocence PLUS you don't want to be weak but some kind of a hero. But this is what the universe of TWD is about: it's a horrible ungrateful world, no matter who you are. Playing as Clem is such a fresh opportunity and a good compensation to the mainstream videogames we are offered. Playing as Clem will be REAL survival. I am so curious what life is like from the children's point of view and I applaud TellTale for the courage to take this path. Clems character is so much deeper than any of the 400 days guys. It must be a hard piece of shit to write her story so well that it appeals to every ones taste, but I am convinced they'll do it best! I had been afraid season 2 would become a copy of the first season and I am so glad it won't. Can't wait to play it.
EDIT: Also, we got enough games with zombie-ramboeing badasses. If you want badass, we got Bigby running simultaneously, so, nothing escapes you.
I'll tell you what how about your bring Bigby in to TWD to protect Clem and you can have some 8 year old detective TWAU.
Lee stayed with Clem for what, four months? She also had parents before that, which I assume put their mark on her as well, but still it's Lee's tutoring and watching that will form the personality of her. I don't buy that.
My main concern is that she is, no matter how else you put it, a child. A child is always led, never the leader (and anything else is just romantic BS, and ´that trope has been used unfortunately by my favourite author Stephen King). Sure, it might be fun to experience the apocalypse through the eyes of a kid, but exciting? When Lee ran out of bullets he could use his trusted fire axe; Clem will have to rely on running away.
And lets not forget that Lee (or anyone else for that matter ) was not a badass. Mowing down zombies with impunity has been done to death (no pun intended) in other games, but TWD was never about that. It was about building relations.
And here we have another problem. A person only build relations up to his equal (it is called child-adult-boss IIRC), where an equal relationship is only built with others of the same stance - a child gets an equal relationship with another child, but is in an inferior position to an adult or boss, a adult builds an equal relationship to another adult, but is inferior to his boss, and finally, a boss builds an equal relationship to another boss, and is superior to adults and children. It is all about power here.
Clem will never have an equal relationship with anyone not of her age, and unfortunately, this is a game about relationships.
Good point - I definitely think a day in the spotlight could have been bearable with Clem, but an entire season? I very highly doubt it.
How about you stop playing the game if you don't like it? I'm sure Clementine haters (all 2 of them) not buying the game won't hurt the sales at all.
Why do we always have to be the leader, anyway? To feel superior?
Clem proved herself in Season 1 several times, she's a good shot. She may be weak, but she's small, can hide easier but first and foremost she's clever, which is the best survival skill.
I said that because many of the grumblers here were demanding a badass protagonist like "Why not Molly? She's badass!" or "Clem is too weak, I wanna kill some zombies!"
I disagree, just from my personal experiences. You are right saying the game is about building relationships. But wasn't the relationship between Lee and Clem one of the best in spite of the age difference? Clem proved she has something even a lot of adults lack: social and emotional intelligence, which makes her more mature than other kids. I don't think they'll serve us childish dialogs.
Anyway, I won't blame them for their decision at all. If they asked us before season 1 if we'd like to play as an .. ummm.. "urban" convicted murderer some people just would've said 'No', but now that it's released nobody doubts their decision because it was so well written. I can't imagine they'll blow it this time.
"I don't think Lee made too many decisions as an acting leader"?
What?! Did you play the game? Maybe you were choosing silence option every time. I didn't.
THIS!
Two points here. First and foremost, the reason the player (aka the protagonist) should always be the leader is because of control: the player should always feel like s/he is the one in control of what's happening. One example here is Alyx Vance of Half-Life 2 fame. She was originally made as quite pushy, always wanting Freeman (aka the player) to hurry up. This was NOT appreciated by the test players who wanted to explore the world at their own pace, and thus she was remade as a follower instead of a leader.
A player always lead, otherwise its railroading. And in TWD, Lee (aka the player) led - you could take your time exploring stuff until you were ready to move on. Case in point: After the crash which set off Lee's adventure, you (aka Lee) could stand behind the car and shout at the dead cop for hours, and nothing would happen. When you actually did move forward, stuff happened because you were in control and had actually taken that decision.
Regarding Lee's and Clem's relationship then, they had exactly the type of relationship I described earlier: just because Clem actually is quite smart for her age doesn't take away the fact that Lee was the one raising her, deciding where they would go and so on ("Can I have it back?" "Not now Clem"). Having power over someone doesn't make the relationship bad, because then every single parent-child relationship would be bad.
This would be why I have a niggling suspicion Season 2 is going to have a lot less to do with a single fixed group and lot more to do with Clem specifically. I suspect, in line with one of Lee's last possible pieces of advice, that Clem is going to want to keep moving, even if whatever given group she's with at any given time has no such intentions.
In other words, the struggle for leadership won't matter as much because Clem has no interest in either leading or being led. She just does what she needs to survive and keeps a careful distance from whichever group she's with. But I suppose we'll see.
Warde summed it up for me there. As the player, I want a good amount of control on what happens with regards to the plot in a game like this. Playing Clem will realistically take this away from me, which doesn't make me too happy.
I kind of think playing as Bonnie or Shel would have opened up a lot more doors, but oh well. I'll probably like the game when it comes out nevertheless.
Called it!
I knew Clem would be our protagonist (there's a reason she remembered things Lee said and did) and I'm glad. Bringing in a new character to control just wouldn't feel right. Lee taught Clementine and now she has to take everything he taught her effect. I'm not sure why people are upset by this. You're effectively her inner voice and will no doubt have to make decisions over whether you trust someone or not. Remember it will use our season 1 save so I'm pretty sure there will be dialogue options linking back to what Lee said and did in season 1!
It's like Chuck says "There ain't too young not any more. You gotta consider her a living person. That's it. You're either living or you're not. You ain't little, you ain't a girl, you ain't a boy, You ain't strong or smart, You're alive."
Your forced to grow up quick in a zombie apocalypse and Clem's a smart girl, Lee's taught her well so I'm sure telltale will do this justice.
If you're not sure about the skeptcisim, and disappointment, then you have been reading peoples posts. And just ignored them.
Let's all just sit back, take a breath, and realize that playing as Clementine was the only way this was going to pan out. Because if we played as yet another surrogate mother or father figure to Clementine, two things were going to happen.
The first is that it would trivialize Lee. If we become someone who once again has to guide Clem through an undead minefield, then Lee Everett becomes a man who is incomplete; his goal of either trying to preserve or strip away Clementine's principles in the face of certain death passed on to someone else after his demise. Lee Everett was a dynamite character, and having him function as a stepping stone to another protagonist would do him a disservice. Plus, having another protagonist would add a degree of removal. This way, WE have to be the people that Lee hoped Clementine would be. WE have to be as good as our words.
The second, and more practical outcome, is that if we have to keep guiding ad rescuing Clementine, then we're going to start resenting her sooner or later. Her jeopardy can't keep moving the plot forward, because if it does, we will eventually turn on her. Clementine is one of the best written child characters I've seen in any medium, and it would suck beyond belief if she fell into the same Annoying Hindrance bin as (ugh) Dawn Summers.
Plus, hey. When was the last time we played a video game where the lead was a nine-year-old girl in the zombie apocalypse? "Never," that's when.
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be skepticism. Something like this hasn't been tried before. But there should be excitement too. And for the exact same reason.